I'm from Philadelphia and I live on the west coast, when I fly into the east coast I usually fly via EWR rgwn drive don to Philly. Since I'm from NE Philadelphia it's the same time from where we are to EWR as it is to PHL..

Antarius wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Cause it’s an AA fortress hub

With limited O&D. Like CLT, DTW etc.

It's a combination of factors. DFW is a fortress hub for AA too and IAH for UA, both (the latter more so) have a plethora of carriers.

This report states different.

In 2017 the O&D was 67.3% of the almost 15 million passengers.

https://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/ ... ndards.pdf

PHLspecial wrote:

Polot wrote:

PHL also doesn’t really have the international tourist appeal that some of the other cities you mentioned have.

It is a pretty historical city, yes it does not have the same bling as NY but does a pretty good damn food scene, 100+ museums, and a bunch of national attractions.

Yea its a nice city, just like Portland or Cincinnati or St. louis, for me to jump on a basic economy ticket to visit over the long weekend, and maybe I do like it more than NYC/DC, but it's not something someone from europe or asia is going to plan their trip around. You could say the same thing about Tampa compared to Miami, sure its a nice city with a nice beach and I love visiting there, but MIA has all the international flights because it offers so much more.

klm617 wrote:

PHL has plenty of international carriers. BA, LH, EI, FI and QR. At this point in history it has more than it has ever had. There was a time when BA was the only international carrier at PHL so I would say it has done well relatively speaking.

Not sure where you get your facts from. There was never a time when BA was the only European carrier. In fact, LH was their first foreign jet carrier at PHL. BA (BOAC) came in during the late sixties. Aside from AF, AZ and SR have been in and out of PHL.

Boof02671 wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Cause it’s an AA fortress hub

With limited O&D. Like CLT, DTW etc.

It's a combination of factors. DFW is a fortress hub for AA too and IAH for UA, both (the latter more so) have a plethora of carriers.

This report states different.

In 2017 the O&D was 67.3% of the almost 15 million passengers.

https://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/ ... ndards.pdf

That's 10 million people. Which is quite small. DFW is something like 45% O&D, which while smaller percentage wise, is 3 times the that of PHL.

PHL is well served by AA for the size of traffic. As a result, its unlikely to see a ton of foreign tails flying there.

Thibault973 wrote:

........................ I should know my boyfriend went to Upenn and I flew there from Paris almost every month for a moment, hating him for not choosing NYU where he had also been admitted.

That suggests that your boyfriend knew what he was doing. Choosing NYU over PENN so his girlfriend could fun in NYC would have been at best the typical response of an anutter.

AC is pretty much like domestic instead of international due to US preclearance at YYZ and YUL. They wouldn't use gates that airlines like BA and QR use at PHL.

880dc8707 wrote:

There is also Air Canada with good YYZ int'l traffic connections. At least it counts as Philly departures, but cuts into volume for other carriers

Just comparing BOS and PHL, the latter is a bigger city and a larger metro area. In the ‘Old Days’ international flag carriers felt that all they needed to do was dump passengers at JFK and let them find their own way up to Boston. But along came the 787, and Boston was the first city JAL chose to use it for. To me, the gold rush for Boston started on that day and it’s been an avalanche since. While I do think Boston is ‘punching above its weight class’ a bit with all this new service, the truth is that it has a very robust and diverse economy and has JetBlue to help feed many of these international flights. Royal Air Marco 787s will be coming soon, and that’s something I thought we’d never see up here.

I would love to see AF back in PHL.
So far most of the thread has been focusing on TATL market, what about the Carrbbean or South America? Any room there for expansion? As a someone who grew up in SE Pennsylvania PHL was usually the first choice to get "anywhere". However, on my last several trips I had the huge displeasure of arriving in Terminal A East.....talk about about third world conditions. I needed to use the restrooms on my way to customs and the condition of the men's room was deplorable! If the entire airport could be as nice as Termina A West, PHL would be a great place to enter the country.

EK77WNH wrote:

Just comparing BOS and PHL, the latter is a bigger city and a larger metro area.

Philadelphia Combined Statistical Area have 7 Million population while the Boston Combined Statistical Area have 8 Million.

crownvic wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PHL has plenty of international carriers. BA, LH, EI, FI and QR. At this point in history it has more than it has ever had. There was a time when BA was the only international carrier at PHL so I would say it has done well relatively speaking.

Not sure where you get your facts from. There was never a time when BA was the only European carrier. In fact, LH was their first foreign jet carrier at PHL. BA (BOAC) came in during the late sixties. Aside from AF, AZ and SR have been in and out of PHL.

Before Swissair came in BA was the only European carrier serving PHL.

cgnnrw wrote:

I would love to see AF back in PHL.
So far most of the thread has been focusing on TATL market, what about the Carrbbean or South America? Any room there for expansion? As a someone who grew up in SE Pennsylvania PHL was usually the first choice to get "anywhere". However, on my last several trips I had the huge displeasure of arriving in Terminal A East.....talk about about third world conditions. I needed to use the restrooms on my way to customs and the condition of the men's room was deplorable! If the entire airport could be as nice as Termina A West, PHL would be a great place to enter the country.

IMO I feel getting a foreign carrier for Caribbean and South America are slim to none. For South America the only carrier that would make sense would be LATAM being Oneworld connected but since they already fly to MIA with strong connections and and JFK I doubt they would have there eyes on PHL. As for Caribbean not sure about foreign carrier but I would have thought Jetblue would have started a San Juan route by now before Spirit. I’ve talks about Copa being a good fit but doubt that plus people can just go right up to Newark for that. Overall I just feel any international expansion will be mainly done by AA which is good & bad. As a Philly native any new international carrier route would be a surprise but greatly accepted.

Antarius wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Cause it’s an AA fortress hub

With limited O&D. Like CLT, DTW etc.

It's a combination of factors. DFW is a fortress hub for AA too and IAH for UA, both (the latter more so) have a plethora of carriers.

PHL's O&D is only low because of the proximity to NYC and DC. Two of the top 5 destinations from almost every airport are NYC and DC. PHL is special because no one flies to those two cities from PHL - they drive, bus or train it. If PHL was further away from NYC and DC you could probably add another 5-7 million passengers to PHL's O/D figures.

In the 1980s, before the USAir hub, I traveled frequently from BOS to PHL and was shocked at the huge and visible difference in the size of international terminals and number of foreign carriers at the two airports. The PHL international terminal was a converted hangar far away from the domestic terminals. As others have suggested, leakage and a small O&D are a factor, but the fortress hub is probably less of an explanation.
For what it's worth, I like Philadelphia and enjoy its many attractions, but it clearly is not an air travel powerhouse.

Ever been to Philly? That should answer your question.

I live in NE Philadelphia, and if you’ve ever looked at FR24, you’d see that PHL is nearly at capacity as is with AA mainline and regional flights.

That said, I don’t see a major draw here for international passengers.

Marc.

Could ONEWORLD add presence in liue of AA own metal?

Bigant0408 wrote:

cgnnrw wrote:

I would love to see AF back in PHL.
So far most of the thread has been focusing on TATL market, what about the Carrbbean or South America? Any room there for expansion? As a someone who grew up in SE Pennsylvania PHL was usually the first choice to get "anywhere". However, on my last several trips I had the huge displeasure of arriving in Terminal A East.....talk about about third world conditions. I needed to use the restrooms on my way to customs and the condition of the men's room was deplorable! If the entire airport could be as nice as Termina A West, PHL would be a great place to enter the country.

IMO I feel getting a foreign carrier for Caribbean and South America are slim to none. For South America the only carrier that would make sense would be LATAM being Oneworld connected but since they already fly to MIA with strong connections and and JFK I doubt they would have there eyes on PHL. As for Caribbean not sure about foreign carrier but I would have thought Jetblue would have started a San Juan route by now before Spirit. I’ve talks about Copa being a good fit but doubt that plus people can just go right up to Newark for that. Overall I just feel any international expansion will be mainly done by AA which is good & bad. As a Philly native any new international carrier route would be a surprise but greatly accepted.

Now and then there has been rumours about CM to PHL and/or BWI.
For Philadelphia PA/NJ/DE metro region CM @ IAD is kind of far and for CM, UA EWR-PTY may seem a different product.
Also, PHL not being a big Star Alliance airport might not be a big issue for CM, as CM does fly to BOS and LAS which aren't big Star Alliance airports.
IMHO, given the proper schedule (most likely a day-time rotation and operating peak days) PHL may work at least 4 times per week.

What it might be saId about PHL and Latin America (Central and South America) is that the limited demand may be covered by only one airline, be AV from SAL, OneWorld LATAM from LIM or CM from PTY.

PHLspecial wrote:

Polot wrote:

PHL also doesn’t really have the international tourist appeal that some of the other cities you mentioned have.

It is a pretty historical city, yes it does not have the same bling as NY but does a pretty good damn food scene, 100+ museums, and a bunch of national attractions.

That might be true, I've never been to Philadelphia. But few Europeans looking for a pretty historical city with a good food scene and plenty of museums will think about Philadelphia, they will more likely consider Berlin, Paris, Vienna, Rome, London or Barcelona.

Antarius wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Antarius wrote:

With limited O&D. Like CLT, DTW etc.

It's a combination of factors. DFW is a fortress hub for AA too and IAH for UA, both (the latter more so) have a plethora of carriers.

This report states different.

In 2017 the O&D was 67.3% of the almost 15 million passengers.

https://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/ ... ndards.pdf

That's 10 million people. Which is quite small. DFW is something like 45% O&D, which while smaller percentage wise, is 3 times the that of PHL.

Your math is wrong as you are comparing PHL enplanements with DFW enplanements+deplanements. DFW had ~33.5 million enplanements in the same year (2017), and taking your 45% O&D number, is 15 million passengers. So 1.5 times that of PHL, not 3 times.

I didn’t compare anything

Boof02671 wrote:

I didn’t compare anything

Hence why I was quoting Antarius...

It quoted me also

DarthLobster wrote:

Ever been to Philly? That should answer your question.

Your consistent one liner anet flame bating is getting a bit boring ! Suggest give it a rest - for a few years.

Would like to see an EK flight to PHL. I believe it is the biggest metropolitan area in the US without EK service.

Malayil wrote:

Would like to see an EK flight to PHL. I believe it is the biggest metropolitan area in the US without EK service.

Yes but PHL has QR and there is no way it can support 2 ME3 carriers. DTW is the biggest market with NO ME3 carrier.

Philadelphia is probably the most anonymous big city in the USA for people outside of USA. Most have never even heard about it unless you are into US constitution .

PHL is what I call a "sweet spot" hub - convenient location to be an international gateway and just enough O/D traffic to support a hub, but not too much O/D to encourage significant competition.

lowfareair wrote:

Antarius wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

This report states different.

In 2017 the O&D was 67.3% of the almost 15 million passengers.

https://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/ ... ndards.pdf

That's 10 million people. Which is quite small. DFW is something like 45% O&D, which while smaller percentage wise, is 3 times the that of PHL.

Your math is wrong as you are comparing PHL enplanements with DFW enplanements+deplanements. DFW had ~33.5 million enplanements in the same year (2017), and taking your 45% O&D number, is 15 million passengers. So 1.5 times that of PHL, not 3 times.

PHL is the largest single airport market in the country. Now, there is some leakage to TTN, ACY and even ABE, but most of the O&D stays in PHL.

With all the AA concentration on PHL rather than JFK, it is possible for Iberia to shift one of their JFK flights to PHL,since they could get some pretty strong OW connections there?

phllax wrote:

PHL is the largest single airport market in the country. Now, there is some leakage to TTN, ACY and even ABE, but most of the O&D stays in PHL.

"Even" ABE?

I'd say it's a pretty decent amount of ABE's traffic. With typical Philly-area traffic, getting to PHL from many locations that are considered part of the Philly area is nightmarish. If you're north-to-northwest of the city, ABE has significant advantages. Depending on how close you live to ABE, driving to ABE plus your connection time elsewhere could be barely more time if not the same or even less time than driving to PHL, parking, getting to the terminals, going through security, waiting for your flight, and getting out. ABE has none of that. Parking is a breeze, it's a very quick walk into the terminal, the line for security is usually nonexistent (especially if you have TSA precheck)... If you know Lehigh Valley traffic well, you can drive onto airport property with 20 minutes before boarding begins and still be sitting in the waiting area for like 5-10 minutes before they start boarding.

ABE is phenomenally convenient for people in Bucks and even northern Montgomery Counties, not to mention the Berks/Lehigh/Northampton Counties in PA and even Warren County in New Jersey.

Granted, I admit I'm a bit biased that I live 5 miles from ABE and am driveway-to-sitting-at-gate in about 20 minutes, but... There has to be a VERY good reason for me to go to either PHL or EWR for flying, particularly PHL.

usair330 wrote:

Living in Philadelphia I'm going to give you the honest answer as to why you don't see more international airlines here. The truth is we broke as f*** out here. We aint got no money to be travelling overseas. The honest to god truth.

That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the Philadelphia metro as a whole is a lot poorer than Washington or Boston (per capita income for WAS is $47.4K, for BOS $37.3K, for PHL $22.9K). NYC is under 10% higher for per capita income but 4x larger for population...

Antarius wrote:

It's a combination of factors. DFW is a fortress hub for AA too and IAH for UA, both (the latter more so) have a plethora of carriers.

IAH has the broad variety of international carriers it boasts due to Houston being the largest global center for the petroleum industry. In certain markets (i.e. CDG, AMS, LHR) the foreign carrier gets a lot of the traffic from large players in the industry HQ'd in their home countries (think Schlumberger, Total, Royal Dutch Shell, BP, etc.).

DarthLobster wrote:

Ever been to Philly? That should answer your question.

There ya go.

texl1649 wrote:

Has the OP ever been to Philadelphia?

Never been, unless a transfer at PHL counts.

Thanks for all the replies, I didn't realize EWR is so close to the Philly suburbs, the leakage makes sense especially with more competitive fares.

ScottB wrote:

That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the Philadelphia metro as a whole is a lot poorer than Washington or Boston (per capita income for WAS is $47.4K, for BOS $37.3K, for PHL $22.9K). NYC is under 10% higher for per capita income but 4x larger for population...

You are looking at City borders, not the respective metro area. Philly's metro per capita income is almost 40k.

klm617 wrote:

crownvic wrote:

klm617 wrote:

PHL has plenty of international carriers. BA, LH, EI, FI and QR. At this point in history it has more than it has ever had. There was a time when BA was the only international carrier at PHL so I would say it has done well relatively speaking.

Not sure where you get your facts from. There was never a time when BA was the only European carrier. In fact, LH was their first foreign jet carrier at PHL. BA (BOAC) came in during the late sixties. Aside from AF, AZ and SR have been in and out of PHL.

Before Swissair came in BA was the only European carrier serving PHL.

The timetables aren't supporting what you've said there.

I'm showing 1968 as the first year LH served PHL. BA's timetable that year does not show PHL.

PHL doesn't show up on BOAC's timetables until 1971.

What's your source showing that BA was at any time the only European carrier serving PHL? I'd be most curious to see it.

lowfareair wrote:

ScottB wrote:

That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but the Philadelphia metro as a whole is a lot poorer than Washington or Boston (per capita income for WAS is $47.4K, for BOS $37.3K, for PHL $22.9K). NYC is under 10% higher for per capita income but 4x larger for population...

You are looking at City borders, not the respective metro area. Philly's metro per capita income is almost 40k.

And what really skews it downward is that the City and County of Philadelphia are one in the same, so while there are some more affluent areas of the city such as Chestnut Hill, Center City and the far Northeast, most of it is not.

Does anyone think TAP could make LIS - PHL viable?

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Does anyone think TAP could make LIS - PHL viable?

I think they could using the 321LR. There’s few articles stating they’re looking into PHL. But see if that actually happens

Not to mention filthadelphia has a reputation of being a very rude city, (they booed Santa clause) they say it’s the city of brotherly love yet the second most violent city in the country, now before I get a crap ton of hate messages proving my point, I happen to like PHL it’s gorgeous there, and I have a ton of friends there and the food is to die for.

Now from an airline perspective when I worked for FL we had a plane that originated in TPA and it would come back, we would have to clean the plane really well BEFORE it left TPA because it would come back looking like a garbage dump, and every time I’ve had to deal with PHL airline employees on several airlines it was never a pleasant experience.

Problem with philly is it’s bullseye to all the major Mid Atlantic and NE mega airports

airtrantpa wrote:

Not to mention filthadelphia has a reputation of being a very rude city, (they booed Santa clause) they say it’s the city of brotherly love yet the second most violent city in the country,...................

Although 99% of your post is absurd, I'll just focus on the MOST inaccurate claim ("the second most violent city in the country") : https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous
Best to research a bit AND STAY ON TOPIC, before exposing oneself to ridicule.

AA’s dominance at PHL is seen as an impediment to more foreign flag carriers there. But the same could be said of DL at Boston. Yet the international carriers still flock to Logan. So I’d have to say it’s less an AA thing for PHL and more of a geographical proximity thing.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

crownvic wrote:

Not sure where you get your facts from. There was never a time when BA was the only European carrier. In fact, LH was their first foreign jet carrier at PHL. BA (BOAC) came in during the late sixties. Aside from AF, AZ and SR have been in and out of PHL.

Before Swissair came in BA was the only European carrier serving PHL.

The timetables aren't supporting what you've said there.

I'm showing 1968 as the first year LH served PHL. BA's timetable that year does not show PHL.

PHL doesn't show up on BOAC's timetables until 1971.

What's your source showing that BA was at any time the only European carrier serving PHL? I'd be most curious to see it.

winginit...It is just people on this forum shouting out information, yet they just do not know their facts. I will not run my mouth, unless I am 100% sure of what I am saying. Unfortunately, others just do not follow this rule and would prefer to look foolish.

EK77WNH wrote:

AA’s dominance at PHL is seen as an impediment to more foreign flag carriers there. But the same could be said of DL at Boston. Yet the international carriers still flock to Logan. So I’d have to say it’s less an AA thing for PHL and more of a geographical proximity thing.

Not really:
DL (BOS) : LIS, FCO, CDG, AMS, LHR, MAN, DUB, EDI
AA (PHL) : LIS, FCO, CDG, AMS, LHR, MAN, DUB, EDI, SNN, BER, FRA, PRG, MUC, ZRH, BUD, VCE, BLQ, DBV, ATH, BCN, MAD

PHLspecial wrote:

...................Now I'm going to cry about not having Asian carriers flying to PHL because of leakage

Qatar is in Asia.

PHLspecial wrote:

EK77WNH wrote:

AA’s dominance at PHL is seen as an impediment to more foreign flag carriers there. But the same could be said of DL at Boston. Yet the international carriers still flock to Logan. So I’d have to say it’s less an AA thing for PHL and more of a geographical proximity thing.

Well I thought that BOS has strong business ties to the world. Don't get me wrong PHL has some good size businesses. A few years ago DL tried the PHL-LHR route and failed, I would think that would have to do with AA. AA has over 47% market share according to BTS so its doing well not but enough to attract international carriers especially Asian ones. You probably right about geographical proximity to NY and DC. Now I'm going to cry about not having Asian carriers flying to PHL because of leakage

DL flew PHLLHR for the slot. It was one of the remedy slots AA/BA had to give up for the approval of the joint venture. DL had to fly it for a certain amount of time before it could be transferred. It was never intended to be kept or competitive. So technically it wasn't a fail because they secured a LHR slot out of it.