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lightsaber
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Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:57 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.

For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.

Lightsaber
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keesje
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:15 pm

A few months back I sat on DL M90, seat 38A.

I had installed DecibelX on my phone.

It said average 82.4dB on a 2 minute sample during cruise, measured on ear height.

Image

It was a longer flight and it felt kind of loud.

Maybe because I sat in a corner & the V2500 fan was ~20 inch left of my left ear, dunno..

Lovely aircraft, still :geek:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:21 pm

If Boeing had gone the 727 MAX,err.... I mean MD-95 MAX, path.....
Last edited by WPvsMW on Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DENTK
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:21 pm

The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:30 pm

DENTK wrote:
The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.


DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

Jeremy
 
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727tiger
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:48 pm

I flew a couple of DL MD-88s last month and will be on an MD-88 and 717 in early June. I will be enjoying every second of those flights. Meanwhile, my DL mainline flights are becoming more and more 737-900s.
 
DENTK
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:52 pm

SESGDL wrote:
DENTK wrote:
The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.


DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

Jeremy

I should have been more specific. Obviously I am referring to the 88/90 fleet only.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:56 pm

keesje wrote:
A few months back I sat on DL M90, seat 38A.

I had installed DecibelX on my phone.

It said average 82.4dB on a 2 minute sample during cruise, measured on ear height.

Image

It was a longer flight and it felt kind of loud.

Maybe because I sat in a corner & the V2500 fan was ~20 inch left of my left ear, dunno..

Lovely aircraft, still :geek:


And that is an MD-90. Try doing that on an old DC-9! I still remember stepping off a KLM DC-9/15 with deaf ears and a brain-splitting headache after a 3hr, stormy night, turbulent flight in the last row....
If you read my posts you will see how sensitive I am to cabin noise, which to me is #1 item for cabin comfort. I am personally holding my own 'cabin noise ranking' list inside my brain cloud!!!
 
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

Lightsaber


Now now, I've been told conclusively in A.net lore that all the MD-90s except a select few at BYH were just waiting on engine overhauls and are intended to go back into service, and that any suggestion they're done was malarkey.

Glad I got the chance to get a ride on one while I could.
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HaulSudson
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:01 pm

Well, it's 2019 after all.

Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.

:duck:
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:12 pm

Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.

For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.

Lightsaber

Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.

Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.

We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.

Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?
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SESGDL
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:23 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.


I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:32 pm

The problem with replacing the 717s are that they are 100 seaters. Important for scope with regard to the 76 seat RJs. And A321s and 739s are almost twice as big. So they aren't the replacements. The replacement is the A220, but first DL will add A220s to max out 76 seat scope. Then the 717s will gradually disappear. I vote for a 2024 start and a 2030 finish.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:33 pm

HaulSudson wrote:
Well, it's 2019 after all.

Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.

:duck:


There are plenty of A320s older than Delta's MD-90s, and A320s that have been retired that are younger in years than some of Delta's MD-90s.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.


I'll take the over on your 717 retirement estimate of 2020 or 2021. DL is spending too much to replace MD-88s, MD-90s and 767s, and will be spending too much to replace the oldest 320s and oldest 757s (and funding some modest seat growth) to be retiring 717s in any significant quantity before 2024.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:40 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.


Wouldn't the 752's and A320's go out at the same time? Their fleets are about the same age. :confused:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
glideslope900
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:52 pm

Happy to see these airplanes go. I’m tired of riding in the back of them wondering when the airplane is going to come apart.

Have these aircraft had as much fume issues as the A320? Seems to be a V2500 problem.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:52 pm

SESGDL wrote:
DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy


Not really (without options - options aren't orders) when you recognize that they're also replacing ~60 CR2s by 2023 and need 2-4% seat growth annually. By 2025 they'll also need to have a plan for replacing the early 738s and the 777ERs. 2019 CapEx is already double 2014 levels - but still way, way below AA's peak of $7.3 Billion in 2016.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.

Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.

We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.

Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?


I wouldn't say that the strategy used by RA was a mistake at all. It kept CapEx down while Delta fortified their balance sheet and operations. Now they're in a far better position to acquire new aircraft either at more favorable financing terms or using cash flow from operations.

jagraham wrote:
The problem with replacing the 717s are that they are 100 seaters. Important for scope with regard to the 76 seat RJs. And A321s and 739s are almost twice as big. So they aren't the replacements. The replacement is the A220, but first DL will add A220s to max out 76 seat scope. Then the 717s will gradually disappear. I vote for a 2024 start and a 2030 finish.

United's scope is the one that needs the new 100 seater for more large RJs. Delta scope uses a block hour ratio of mainline narrow body versus large RJ, and is already maxed out. The A220s aren't allowing the addition of any more large RJs to Delta's fleet.
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:58 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.

The obvious replacement for the 717 is the A220. I believe that DL will hang onto the 717 until fuel and maintenance costs make it cost effective to replace them and when DL can afford it. So when that will be will depend a lot on what fuel prices do, as well as DL’s financial health. I don’t believe anyone can predict at this point, not even DL management, when that will be. For now they are not too old and not too inefficient and will continue to fly. Tomorrow things may change.
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:14 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Wouldn't the 752's and A320's go out at the same time? Their fleets are about the same age. :confused:


The only problem with that is they will probably be replaced with more A320/1's :yuck:
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:19 pm

DaProf wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Wouldn't the 752's and A320's go out at the same time? Their fleets are about the same age. :confused:


The only problem with that is they will probably be replaced with more A320/1's :yuck:


Oh - I was just referring to the A320-200's.

At least the brand new A321 CEO's have the nice modernized interior with the larger bins and are quite nice to fly on - even if the engines and underlying systems are straight from the Hair Metal Era (1988) ;)
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Does anyone know the lease arrangement on the 717's from Southwest? This will be the trigger for retirement. From what I have read, Delta got the 717 really cheap from Southwest, so I am guessing they are pretty profitable.
 
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:30 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
DaProf wrote:
The only problem with that is they will probably be replaced with more A320/1's :yuck:


Oh - I was just referring to the A320-200's.

At least the brand new A321 CEO's have the nice modernized interior with the larger bins and are quite nice to fly on - even if the engines and underlying systems are straight from the Hair Metal Era (1988) ;)


That they do, but you'd think they would be able to fix the dutch roll issues by now. I'm flying down to miami in a few days for the 2nd time in the past few months. Last time I flew into FLL to avoid an A320, this time it's all MD-88/90 service which I'm quite happy with.
 
jmscsc
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:47 pm

I flew the MD-90 on my flights last week from ATL-BDL-ATL and have another set scheduled in a few weeks from DTW-BDL-DTW. I'll miss the MD-90 as I enjoy having just two seats on one side and the speed at which those birds climb.
 
chotiwala
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:09 pm

I work at G4, and it was truly sad to see them go. They were the backbone of our fleet for a while, so it was pretty emotional for us.

Few things compare to the sound of those engines starting up, especially the distinctive "pop"!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Such a shame.

The world of aviation will be boring with 737s and A320s.

Hopefully the 717s will last a while
 
tinpusher007
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:45 pm

SESGDL wrote:
DENTK wrote:
The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.


DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

Jeremy

If by the foreseeable future you mean 5 yrs, then you are correct.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Such a shame.

The world of aviation will be boring with 737s and A320s.

Hopefully the 717s will last a while


100%. It's already boring with the lack of variety today. I imagine a future where there are no more than a handle of aircraft types and all the airlines will have white fuselages with billboard titles and a logo on the tail. :(

Long live the 717!

Jeremy
 
rlwynn
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:13 pm

Last one I rode in had Reno Air livery.
I can drive faster than you
 
Elementalism
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:16 pm

Sat in row 12 on a 717 coming back from Dallas a couple weeks ago. I have to admit really enjoyed the flight. So quiet and smooth.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:23 pm

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

Lightsaber


Now now, I've been told conclusively in A.net lore that all the MD-90s except a select few at BYH were just waiting on engine overhauls and are intended to go back into service, and that any suggestion they're done was malarkey.

Glad I got the chance to get a ride on one while I could.


It's not a lore, it's a fact. DL intended on returning them to service, hence why not a single -90 has been scrapped save the China ones as of yet, and the only parts robbed off of them except the TRs and engines. They had every intention of RTSing them.
 
mga707
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:26 pm

HaulSudson wrote:
Well, it's 2019 after all.

Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.

:duck:


I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:46 pm

As another poster referenced, the Anderson decision to purchase the 90s preserved capital at the time when Delta had little capital. Delta has made almost $30B since that time. The 90s have served their purpose by buying that time. The 88s are just plain worn out and also have limited engine parts availability (the engine issue isn't just the 90s). I continue to believe that both the 88s and 90s will be gone by the end of 2021, possibly sooner. Depends upon A321 and A220-300 delivery rates. I wonder how long the heavy 737-7s and A319s will last once the A220-300 shows up.

I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:59 pm

mga707 wrote:
HaulSudson wrote:
Well, it's 2019 after all.

Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.

:duck:


I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...


It is, and that is actually the correct spelling. It's Queens English. The only real English.

But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
Oil is around mid $60s a barrel. MD-90s and A320s with V2500 engines operated fine at levels far
far higher than this. Obviously nothing can go on forever, but would much older 767s be a priority?
 
Oliver2020
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.

For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.

Lightsaber

Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.

Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.

We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.

Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?


Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.

With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.

The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:20 pm

Lufthansa wrote:

But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?

The engines are not the same. Very similar but not the same, and that difference makes the unique engines costly.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:25 pm

SteelChair wrote:
As another poster referenced, the Anderson decision to purchase the 90s preserved capital at the time when Delta had little capital. Delta has made almost $30B since that time. The 90s have served their purpose by buying that time. The 88s are just plain worn out and also have limited engine parts availability (the engine issue isn't just the 90s). I continue to believe that both the 88s and 90s will be gone by the end of 2021, possibly sooner. Depends upon A321 and A220-300 delivery rates. I wonder how long the heavy 737-7s and A319s will last once the A220-300 shows up.

I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.

True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
nws2002
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:31 pm

chotiwala wrote:
I work at G4, and it was truly sad to see them go. They were the backbone of our fleet for a while, so it was pretty emotional for us.

Few things compare to the sound of those engines starting up, especially the distinctive "pop"!


Agreed, I actually left G4 just about a month after the last MD-80. It was sad to see them go and the end of an era. I don't think a lot of the newer employees realize how important the MD-80 was to G4 and how they grew the airline.
 
CaptainWannabe
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:37 pm

I hate to see 'em leave, but I love to watch 'em go.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:57 pm

SESGDL wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

SESGDL wrote:
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.


The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.


I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy

I think the 717s will go after the MD-88s, but earlier than you think. The A220 and E2-195 are hungry for more orders. The 717s were leased when:
1. Available cheap (recall, WN subsidizes the leases).
2. New aircraft were pricey.
3. RR promised much longer overhaul intervals on the BR700. I doubt they were able to develop this PIP with all the other work.

I think the 717s could be gone by 2023.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:16 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.

True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?


That would be a reversal of DL's strategy for the last few years, which has been to upgauge large RJ flights to mainline while using the freed-up large RJs to replace 50-seaters. They also might run into scope problems (fewer 717s = fewer large RJs allowed). I'd be surprised if they didn't replace the 717s with another mainline aircraft.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.

For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.

Lightsaber

Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.

Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.

We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.

Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?


Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.

With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.

The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.


In hindsight, it was a bad decision. When you consider the total program cost (including the entire frames DL acquired for parts, and higher-than-expected maintenance costs) and that the MD-90 averaged less than ten years service before being retired... it was absolutely a bust, and DL would’ve been far better off acquiring new aircraft. An old WSJ mentions that DL was expecting the type to survive “another 20 years.”

That said, in 2009 when the decision was made, nobody could’ve imagined the cash flows DL would be generating less than ten years later, or that the MD-90 faced higher-than-average maintainer costs. DL made the right decision at the time based upon the information it had.
Nobody cares what your next flight is...
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:33 pm

Lufthansa wrote:
mga707 wrote:
HaulSudson wrote:
Well, it's 2019 after all.

Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.

:duck:


I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...


It is, and that is actually the correct spelling. It's Queens English. The only real English.

But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
Oil is around mid $60s a barrel. MD-90s and A320s with V2500 engines operated fine at levels far
far higher than this. Obviously nothing can go on forever, but would much older 767s be a priority?

Only a couple of MRO shops in the world have the capability to rebuild the V2500 for the MD90. They basically don't even want the work now. They would rather work on other more profitable engines so the cost to overhaul has gone up dramatically in the last couple of years. DL could bring the work in house, but why? There is close to zero work to be brought in(contract work is the money cow), it is only for a short time frame and we just don't have the space(they are still trying to figure out were the GTF work will be done).
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 2878
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:39 pm

compensateme wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.

Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.

We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.

Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?


Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.

With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.

The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.


In hindsight, it was a bad decision. When you consider the total program cost (including the entire frames DL acquired for parts, and higher-than-expected maintenance costs) and that the MD-90 averaged less than ten years service before being retired... it was absolutely a bust, and DL would’ve been far better off acquiring new aircraft. An old WSJ mentions that DL was expecting the type to survive “another 20 years.”

That said, in 2009 when the decision was made, nobody could’ve imagined the cash flows DL would be generating less than ten years later, or that the MD-90 faced higher-than-average maintainer costs. DL made the right decision at the time based upon the information it had.


We got them for almost nothing. It was a great decision for the situation. Free airplanes when the cash flow is low as a stop gap until we have boat loads of cash. We would have payed a huge finance debt on new airplanes right out of Chpt 11 and the merger. Same goes for the 717. We could park all the t tails tomorrow for scrap and we would still have made a ton of cash off of them.
 
musman9853
Posts: 559
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Thank God for these old birds dying
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2809
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.



The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.


I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy

I think the 717s will go after the MD-88s, but earlier than you think. The A220 and E2-195 are hungry for more orders. The 717s were leased when:
1. Available cheap (recall, WN subsidizes the leases).
2. New aircraft were pricey.
3. RR promised much longer overhaul intervals on the BR700. I doubt they were able to develop this PIP with all the other work.

I think the 717s could be gone by 2023.

Lightsaber


I would agree with that but see no way that DL could possibly take 150 A220s in 4 years, Bombardier simply can’t produce them that quick.

Jeremy
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:40 pm

FSDan wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.

True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?


That would be a reversal of DL's strategy for the last few years, which has been to upgauge large RJ flights to mainline while using the freed-up large RJs to replace 50-seaters. They also might run into scope problems (fewer 717s = fewer large RJs allowed). I'd be surprised if they didn't replace the 717s with another mainline aircraft.


Yeo, scope with the pilots union. They will never agree to let Connection fly airplanes with more than 76 seats.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:43 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
mga707 wrote:

I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...


It is, and that is actually the correct spelling. It's Queens English. The only real English.

But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
Oil is around mid $60s a barrel. MD-90s and A320s with V2500 engines operated fine at levels far
far higher than this. Obviously nothing can go on forever, but would much older 767s be a priority?

Only a couple of MRO shops in the world have the capability to rebuild the V2500 for the MD90. They basically don't even want the work now. They would rather work on other more profitable engines so the cost to overhaul has gone up dramatically in the last couple of years. DL could bring the work in house, but why? There is close to zero work to be brought in(contract work is the money cow), it is only for a short time frame and we just don't have the space(they are still trying to figure out were the GTF work will be done).

Actually it’s only one and it’s in New Zealand.

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