capejet
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DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:41 am

Does DL overbook flights? It amazes me that their numbers look more like Jet Blue (they do not overbook) than AA/UA.

http://money.com/money/5639829/sorry-bu ... assengers/
 
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DL717
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:43 am

capejet wrote:
Does DL overbook flights? It amazes me that their numbers look more like Jet Blue (they do not overbook) than AA/UA.

http://money.com/money/5639829/sorry-bu ... assengers/


It’s called modern revenue management that’s creating near 90% load factors. Wasn’t a big deal 20 years ago when a typical load was 75%.
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:58 am

I think they also are very proactive by allowing people to “pre-volunteer” for a chosen price - this allows those folks to be bumped without it being “involuntary” as long as Delta is willing to offer what they requested. At least, that’s what I read on here one time.
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MSPNWA
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:03 am

capejet wrote:
Does DL overbook flights? It amazes me that their numbers look more like Jet Blue (they do not overbook) than AA/UA.

http://money.com/money/5639829/sorry-bu ... assengers/


Historically their voluntary denied boarding rates are high, so they likely overbook as much as any airline. They're just good at having them be VDBs, not IDBs.
 
klakzky123
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:21 am

Well from personal experience, they do make it easy to get volunteers. Every other time I've flown to YUL, its overbooked and every time the bidding amount crosses $1000. And they'll pay out in cash (usually a visa prepaid card) when it gets that high so you aren't stuck with a Delta certificate.

I've never actually seen an involuntary denial. They bid the amounts so high that someone always agrees to voluntary switch their flight.
Last edited by klakzky123 on Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
1836Sam
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:24 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I think they also are very proactive by allowing people to “pre-volunteer” for a chosen price - this allows those folks to be bumped without it being “involuntary” as long as Delta is willing to offer what they requested. At least, that’s what I read on here one time.


Yes, it’s an auction “name-your-price” system. UA has recently implemented the same. Who woulda guessed?
 
winginit
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:26 am

MSPNWA wrote:
capejet wrote:
Does DL overbook flights? It amazes me that their numbers look more like Jet Blue (they do not overbook) than AA/UA.

http://money.com/money/5639829/sorry-bu ... assengers/


Historically their voluntary denied boarding rates are high, so they likely overbook as much as any airline. They're just good at having them be VDBs, not IDBs.


I've heard the same but don't have data to back it up. I recall Delta saying shortly after the Dr. Dao incident that their gate agents were authorized to offer up to $10,000 per passenger to incentivize VDB, and I've watched first hand as they dish out what must have been $50,000 total compensation spread across 30 volunteers after an equipment change late last year in JFK.
 
ericm2031
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:59 am

I’d like to see data from the most current year over year, the data in this article started the month of the Dr Dao incident and many airlines stated at the time they would make changes, but this data included data before all those changes went into effect. I think WN said they would eventually move to not overbooking. UA went even above DL by $1 and said they would be able to offer $10k for VDB’s. I’ve also seen AS and AA offering higher amounts than before.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:42 am

My anecdotal observations:

In all of my experiences with overbooked/oversold flights, they almost always seem to be able to round up enough volunteers.
With the "place your bid for compensation during kiosk check-in" and seeking volunteers at gates there almost always seems to be enough people with flexible plans that will wait 12-24 hours to take the compensation.

The cynical side of me also things there are times in overbooked situations where they will strictly enforce the "be onboard 15 minutes prior to departure or your seat is subject to cancellation" rule and "bump" late connecting passengers to avoid potential over-sale situations. There are a few instances where I'm pretty sure they bumped late connecting passengers to later flights that could've in theory made the flight to alleviate the over-sale whenter IDB or VDB situations.
 
United1
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:52 am

ericm2031 wrote:
I’d like to see data from the most current year over year, the data in this article started the month of the Dr Dao incident and many airlines stated at the time they would make changes, but this data included data before all those changes went into effect. I think WN said they would eventually move to not overbooking. UA went even above DL by $1 and said they would be able to offer $10k for VDB’s. I’ve also seen AS and AA offering higher amounts than before.


The big four have all gotten much more aggressive in limiting involuntary denied boarding with UA and DL leading the pack. UA also cut back on the percentage of overbooking they allow which dropped their VDB rate by 20% or so. WN has gotten better but they certainly haven’t eliminated overbooking.

Year over year mainline only (the DOT started listing regional and mainline flights together in 2018 but that data isn’t available for 2017)
UA 2017 2111 IDB
UA 2018 93 IDB

DL 2017 689 IDB
DL 2018 22 IDB

AA 2017 4933 IDB
AA 2018 2614 IDB

WN 2017 8279 IDB
WN 2018 2423 IDB
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klm617
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:28 pm

Are misconnected passengers included in these stats due to the fault of a late inbound flight. In ATL there are a lot of misconnect passengers that are bumped off flights to make room for others. So again I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors state one really needs to gauge this by the amount of passenger that arrive on their original itinerary whether it be Delta's choice or the customers choice across the board including missed connection passenger that are rebooked by Delta with no other option.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
Are misconnected passengers included in these stats due to the fault of a late inbound flight. In ATL there are a lot of misconnect passengers that are bumped off flights to make room for others. So again I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors state one really needs to gauge this by the amount of passenger that arrive on their original itinerary whether it be Delta's choice or the customers choice across the board including missed connection passenger that are rebooked by Delta with no other option.


You're complaining about the on-time rate of the best network carrier, into one of the most on-time arrival major hubs in the country. Your bias and contempt for logic and fact is embarrassing.
 
slider
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:45 pm

klm617 wrote:
Are misconnected passengers included in these stats due to the fault of a late inbound flight. In ATL there are a lot of misconnect passengers that are bumped off flights to make room for others. So again I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors state one really needs to gauge this by the amount of passenger that arrive on their original itinerary whether it be Delta's choice or the customers choice across the board including missed connection passenger that are rebooked by Delta with no other option.


A misconnect is a misconnect, and has nothing to do with denied boardings in concept or reality.

If a misconnect can't be rebooked outright on a confirmed seat, they become a revenue standby, to be cleared if there are seats.
 
shaner82
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:23 pm

Flying from ATL to YYZ a few years back and the flight was overbooked by a lot based on the number of volunteers they were looking for and appeared to accept. I was with a large group and I was not the driver so had no transportation home from YYZ if I stayed behind. I approached the desk and told them I'd take $800, a hotel (my flight was the last one out for the night), my dinner covered and a one way rental vehicle covered. They accepted. I was quite impressed how far they went to prevent an IDB situation.

I've had another VDB situation with DL since. Much less money, but they got me to my destination at the exact same time, I just had to connect via a different city.

That's evidence of nothing except that in my experience, Delta did everything they could to find volunteers. As a result, they've become the airline I fly with as long as it's practical
 
klm617
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:44 pm

slider wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Are misconnected passengers included in these stats due to the fault of a late inbound flight. In ATL there are a lot of misconnect passengers that are bumped off flights to make room for others. So again I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors state one really needs to gauge this by the amount of passenger that arrive on their original itinerary whether it be Delta's choice or the customers choice across the board including missed connection passenger that are rebooked by Delta with no other option.


A misconnect is a misconnect, and has nothing to do with denied boardings in concept or reality.

If a misconnect can't be rebooked outright on a confirmed seat, they become a revenue standby, to be cleared if there are seats.


So it's at the gate agents discretion if you are cutting close on a connection if you make you flight or not and this can be a very effective tool when a flight is over booked and then you are not counted as being denied boarding . I'm sure this is common practice at their hubs maybe not so much at the out stations but in places like ATL they can get pretty creative who gets on the plane and who doesn't.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ThomasMTroxell
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:09 pm

Former DL Gate Agent here -

Delta gives gate agents and even ticket counter agents the tools they need to effectively operate an oversale. AA and UA still routinely must call a supervisor to process compensation whereas Delta agents can do up to 800 or 1000 from any agent and past that is a red coat. This may have changed but that's how it was when I was there.

Delta also uses Amex gift cards, Visa cards, Delta Dollars, and other methods to buy people off. Other airlines just do future travel credit. In markets like New York and LA the going rate for a voluntary buy off is usually a minimum of $1,000 and in these markets I believe DL has switched to using exclusively Amex or Visa giftcards instead of DL Dollars.

When I worked an oversold flight there are many tools you can use to manage it. I would start seeking volunteers up to 3 hours before departure simply by offering free changes to an earlier flight to move pax off the oversale. I would start taking voluntary offers at this time too. I would take gate control at D-30 which inhibits late checkins or seat changes. I would work to complete boarding by D-10 so that anyone who isnt in the gate can have their seat dropped (and prevent an IDB/VDB). I never personally had an IDB and I used the tools DL gave me to simply move people around on earlier flights, route them around ATL via DTW or NYC, give VDBs and a hotel, and I took gate control. I never had to IDB anyone.
CRJ CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E90 DC9 MD80 MD88 MD90 717 733 734 735 73W 738 739ER 744 752 753 763 76W 764 77E 77L 77W A319 A320 A321 A343 US HP DL FL WN LH AC BA AB UA TW
 
Etheereal
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:23 pm

1836Sam wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I think they also are very proactive by allowing people to “pre-volunteer” for a chosen price - this allows those folks to be bumped without it being “involuntary” as long as Delta is willing to offer what they requested. At least, that’s what I read on here one time.


Yes, it’s an auction “name-your-price” system. UA has recently implemented the same. Who woulda guessed?

After a certain involuntary beating, but yes, they've implemented that as of late.
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jayunited
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:27 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Historically their voluntary denied boarding rates are high, so they likely overbook as much as any airline. They're just good at having them be VDBs, not IDBs.


Exactly.... UA has modeled their bid system after DL's bid system which is why UA's numbers are so low after years of being on of the worst in terms of IDBs. It isn't that these airlines aren't bumping passengers its that these airlines have created a system where passengers on oversold flights can bid and enter a price for what it would take to get them to give up their seat. If a passengers voluntarily gives up their seat it is recorded as a VDB, if the airline takes the seat from you it is recorded as a IDB.
 
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fanoftristars
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:45 pm

I think DL also proactively calls customers in advance as well. I've been called a few times by DL offering a different routing with money. Last time I was called the morning of my flight to see if I would fly SLC-MSP-AMS-DXB instead of SLC-AMS-DXB arriving at the exact same time (and believe it or not leaving at almost the same time with a short layover in MSP and AMS instead of the longer AMS layover) and offered $600. I'm guessing they were able to get a few off of the SLC-AMS flight that way. I told them to keep the $600 and put me in Delta One the whole way - but apparently it was full. She did put me in first from SLC-MSP and keep the $600.
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AA321T
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:12 pm

1836Sam wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I think they also are very proactive by allowing people to “pre-volunteer” for a chosen price - this allows those folks to be bumped without it being “involuntary” as long as Delta is willing to offer what they requested. At least, that’s what I read on here one time.


Yes, it’s an auction “name-your-price” system. UA has recently implemented the same. Who woulda guessed?

AA has also just recently implemented this system.
 
winginit
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
So it's at the gate agents discretion if you are cutting close on a connection if you make you flight or not


That's incorrect. A gate agent can't just give away your seat if you're a connecting passenger and are 'cutting it close'. You're either at the gate ten minutes prior to departure when the door is scheduled to close or you're not, and as I'm sure you know, unless you don't have a through booking the gate agent is well aware of whether your inbound flight has landed and how close you're cutting it. The discretion comes into play when the ground staff and pilot either agree to hold the plane or not.
 
TravelbyAir
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:56 am

fanoftristars wrote:
I think DL also proactively calls customers in advance as well. I've been called a few times by DL offering a different routing with money. Last time I was called the morning of my flight to see if I would fly SLC-MSP-AMS-DXB instead of SLC-AMS-DXB arriving at the exact same time (and believe it or not leaving at almost the same time with a short layover in MSP and AMS instead of the longer AMS layover) and offered $600. I'm guessing they were able to get a few off of the SLC-AMS flight that way. I told them to keep the $600 and put me in Delta One the whole way - but apparently it was full. She did put me in first from SLC-MSP and keep the $600.

Last summer I flew DL during a difficult weather period. Their app proactively alerted me to delay issues, allowing me to book (and rebook) multiple times during the day (both inflight and on stopovers) to change (and re-change) connecting flights as more delays at different airports set in. A few clicks on various choices of flights, and I ultimately got home earlier than the originally booked flights.
 
sciing
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:04 am

I’m not native english speaker, so I had some serious trouble to understand the thread title.
A a correct use of the genitive („DL‘s“) would be very helpfull, wouldn‘t it?
 
zippy
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:40 am

TravelbyAir wrote:
Last summer I flew DL during a difficult weather period. Their app proactively alerted me to delay issues, allowing me to book (and rebook) multiple times during the day (both inflight and on stopovers) to change (and re-change) connecting flights as more delays at different airports set in. A few clicks on various choices of flights, and I ultimately got home earlier than the originally booked flights.


Ditto. I flew JFK-SFO earlier this year when there were a bunch of wind related delays at SFO. By the time I got to JFK I sought out a gate agent and worked through my options. I ended up rebooking a couple times and settling on a flight the next morning on a 764 and got to bring a back of bagels back with me (sure beats the canned bread from Maine). Absolutely no pushback from the gate agents and I'm sure they were happy to have one less person to deal with on the increasingly crowded flights. JFK-PWM? Similar deal. I missed the flight due to my own mistake, got rebooked for a fraction of the same day ticket price and kept the inbound ticket. When weather caused a missed connection last year, Delta rebooked me automatically on the next/last flight of the day on Alaska automatically, they also refunded me the fee for Comfort+ and gave me a $75 voucher when I called the next day.

I got notified a few months ago that my upcoming flight on Delta next week got bumped by about five minutes. The app teases you and suggests that you may be eligible to get rebooked for free (turns out there's a better schedule and equipment if I pick a different routing). So I called Delta and they said that I'd only be eligible if the time difference was > 90 minutes. Bummer! Oh, and their stupid IVR keeps mispronouncing my name every single time. Delta is just the worst! lol

While I think Delta has done a great job for me, I've had similar experiences with both American (staff was empowered to get pax off the plane voluntarily) and Southwest (proactive about rebooking) a couple years ago as well. And, honestly, this is what got my jaw to drop when reading about the Dr. Dao experience. How the hell could United rationalize giving its front line staff so little flexibility to remedy the situation that calling the cops is a logical step? You can get almost anyone off the plane for the right price without having to escalate to law enforcement.

sciing wrote:
I’m not native english speaker, so I had some serious trouble to understand the thread title.
A a correct use of the genitive („DL‘s“) would be very helpfull, wouldn‘t it?


Yes.
 
77H
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:10 am

fanoftristars wrote:
I think DL also proactively calls customers in advance as well. I've been called a few times by DL offering a different routing with money. Last time I was called the morning of my flight to see if I would fly SLC-MSP-AMS-DXB instead of SLC-AMS-DXB arriving at the exact same time (and believe it or not leaving at almost the same time with a short layover in MSP and AMS instead of the longer AMS layover) and offered $600. I'm guessing they were able to get a few off of the SLC-AMS flight that way. I told them to keep the $600 and put me in Delta One the whole way - but apparently it was full. She did put me in first from SLC-MSP and keep the $600.


I have had this experience on none other than UA (PMUA to be exact) several times. Most notably was a trip I was flying MSN-OGG via ORD and LAX. I received a call the night before departure from a res agent advising that the ORD-LAX leg was oversold and was hoping that I would volunteer to take the ORD-OGG nonstop instead. She threw in a round trip ticket to anywhere in the L48 “for the inconvenience.” As if getting on a nonstop vs a connection was an inconvenience.

I hope UA gets back to the airline I knew as a kid. That trip was the first plane ticket I bought with my own money as a young teen.

77H
 
Blueknows
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:30 am

This revenue management doesn’t work. It’s greedy airlines trying to squeeze every dollar outta the customer. That’s why they make crazy restrictions on tickets. This is all designed to screw the customer. I used to work for continental express where we did this. Guess what we used to add dummy reservations. This way we wouldn’t be oversold. Then weight and balance in erj/crj aircraft
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
Are misconnected passengers included in these stats due to the fault of a late inbound flight. In ATL there are a lot of misconnect passengers that are bumped off flights to make room for others. So again I believe this is just another smoke and mirrors state one really needs to gauge this by the amount of passenger that arrive on their original itinerary whether it be Delta's choice or the customers choice across the board including missed connection passenger that are rebooked by Delta with no other option.


A few *facts* to counter your "delusions de jour":

    Misconnects are not IDBs (on any airline)
    DL operates with a higher OT percentage than any of the other carriers in that report. Which means what you suppose above would be far more likely (percentage wise) at the other carriers than DL.

Facts > delusions. Don't let your hatred convince you otherwise.
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xdlx
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:29 pm

The REALITY is..... as stated here DL is proactive at soliciting volunteers so they do not end up with INVOLUNTARY OVERSALES.
Where I have a problem is..... sometimes their aggressive OVERBOOKING will sell that last seat on the plane for $200 and they end up buying a family of 3 at $1000 a seat to accommodate the oversale. When you pay $3k for a $200 fare or two.... the "advanced revenue management" system falls on its face.

I do not think the way they process their flights is efficient, everything funnels to the GATE. If instead they did not overbook, and 24h prior to departure all seats became available to assign, the check in process should be 90% complete 1hr prior to departure. ALLOWING the gate agent time to interact with pax and work their flight. Not having to assign 25-30 "basic economy" pax.....
It would be very interesting to see the statistics of how much revenue does DL generate 24h prior to departure of any given flight. If unable to generate as much as it cost to sustain an "advance revenue management" department. Perhaps they are not needed when 97% of tickets are PREPAID AND NON REFUNDABLE. NO OVERBOOKING IS NECESSARY in TODAYS ENVIRONMENT.
 
SteelChair
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:09 pm

xdlx wrote:
The REALITY is..... as stated here DL is proactive at soliciting volunteers so they do not end up with INVOLUNTARY OVERSALES.
Where I have a problem is..... sometimes their aggressive OVERBOOKING will sell that last seat on the plane for $200 and they end up buying a family of 3 at $1000 a seat to accommodate the oversale. When you pay $3k for a $200 fare or two.... the "advanced revenue management" system falls on its face.


My GUESS is that this happens much more rarely than the reverse, which is that they sell that last seat and then there are no shows. I find it hard to believe that there are no shows in today's world, with all the penalties, but apparently it still happens. Managing the no show factor accurately on various dates/events would seem to be a key.
 
Blueknows
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:14 pm

There are no shows everyday. I know I see it everyday. Here is a crazy concept...are you ready.... if you have 150 seats...sell 150 tickets...booooom!!!mindblowing
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:47 pm

xdlx wrote:
The REALITY is..... as stated here DL is proactive at soliciting volunteers so they do not end up with INVOLUNTARY OVERSALES.
Where I have a problem is..... sometimes their aggressive OVERBOOKING will sell that last seat on the plane for $200 and they end up buying a family of 3 at $1000 a seat to accommodate the oversale. When you pay $3k for a $200 fare or two.... the "advanced revenue management" system falls on its face.


I don’t know if this still holds true but when I worked for another carrier back in the 2003-2005 range they only saw something like a 10% redemption rate on the OS vouchers so in actuality, the value in your example was closer to $300 dollars vs the $200 dollar price, that coupled with the fact that for low frequency travelers collecting the vouchers, you may be enduring them to take another trip because of the voucher vs a trip they would have taken, and it’s likely the airline is coming out ahead of where they otherwise would have been if the voucher had never been issued.
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AEROFAN
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:27 pm

Blueknows wrote:
This revenue management doesn’t work. It’s greedy airlines trying to squeeze every dollar outta the customer. That’s why they make crazy restrictions on tickets. This is all designed to screw the customer. I used to work for continental express where we did this. Guess what we used to add dummy reservations. This way we wouldn’t be oversold. Then weight and balance in erj/crj aircraft


I hope you were fired for adding dummy reservations.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:14 pm

xdlx wrote:
The REALITY is..... as stated here DL is proactive at soliciting volunteers so they do not end up with INVOLUNTARY OVERSALES.
Where I have a problem is..... sometimes their aggressive OVERBOOKING will sell that last seat on the plane for $200 and they end up buying a family of 3 at $1000 a seat to accommodate the oversale. When you pay $3k for a $200 fare or two.... the "advanced revenue management" system falls on its face.

I do not think the way they process their flights is efficient, everything funnels to the GATE. If instead they did not overbook, and 24h prior to departure all seats became available to assign, the check in process should be 90% complete 1hr prior to departure. ALLOWING the gate agent time to interact with pax and work their flight. Not having to assign 25-30 "basic economy" pax.....
It would be very interesting to see the statistics of how much revenue does DL generate 24h prior to departure of any given flight. If unable to generate as much as it cost to sustain an "advance revenue management" department. Perhaps they are not needed when 97% of tickets are PREPAID AND NON REFUNDABLE. NO OVERBOOKING IS NECESSARY in TODAYS ENVIRONMENT.


I used to work in Revenue Mgmt (not for DL). My boss told me there were two rules: 1) Fill every seat possible with a butt and after that: 2) Get as much $ possible for each butt. I'd imagine that has not changed much in the almost 2 decades since I did it...except for all the additional ancillary revenue sources nowadays.

There are very few flights (save perhaps for some ULCCs) that sell the last seats for only $200. On an average flight of ~150 peeps there are almost always going to be a few no shows (for various reasons). Even on flights that are overbooked, most don't take a single VDB/IDB*. On ones that do, they probably average less than $400/pp in the form of a voucher that expires in a year. We did some studies many years ago (before they were electronic), and found that less than 50% were ever redeemed. Nowadays airlines have gotten smarter and let pax start low-balling each other to volunteer when they check in. I suspect this has saved them a lot in the form of payouts and makes it easier for the agent at the gate. I tried to put in $1000 on a recent DL flight and it wouldn't even accept it...told me to lower it...I declined.

*This excludes holidays/special events, where they lower their overbooking significantly anyway in expectation of fewer no-shows. The software algorithms are extremely good at this.

Overbooking contributes hundreds of millions to airline revenues. If they were to stop overbooking, air fares would increase significantly so be careful what you ask for.

I was an agent and supervisor at an outstation (later a hub) before I worked in RM. When we had overbooked flights, we often had the option of sending the pax on another routing that would have them arrive about the same time, or sometimes even earlier. These peeps were usually happy to volunteer their seats. I only recall dealing with an IDB once in 5 or so years and it was actually on a non-US carrier who we ground handled.

As a business traveler, I quite often book within 24 hours, and even more often I make changes to my "NON REFUNDABLE" tickets to accommodate my customer's schedules. To me they aren't really "non refundable". If you cancel, you get the values as a credit you can use within a year (minus the change fee). I used to volunteer quite often and even then, probably only a third of the time do they actually need my seat.

I'm fine with overbooking. I'd also be fine if they increased the IDB payouts as well to protect pax and punish airlines for leaving peeps behind even though it's quite rare.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2039
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:16 pm

Blueknows wrote:
There are no shows everyday. I know I see it everyday. Here is a crazy concept...are you ready.... if you have 150 seats...sell 150 tickets...booooom!!!mindblowing


And lose over a half a billion dollars a year! FAIL
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Blueknows
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:31 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:28 pm

What are you talking about. Overselling a flight is just bad business. I’m sorry let’s switch positions. I’ll be the customer and you can be the agent that has to do an over sale report, and haggle for a volunteer. Nothing about that is fun or helps in boarding on time
 
jayunited
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:13 pm

Blueknows wrote:
What are you talking about. Overselling a flight is just bad business. I’m sorry let’s switch positions. I’ll be the customer and you can be the agent that has to do an over sale report, and haggle for a volunteer. Nothing about that is fun or helps in boarding on time


I think you are missing the point a lot of people have made on this thread. DL is not haggling for volunteers at the gate which is why the IDBs are so low. Instead they are proactively contacting passengers either hours in advance or when they check-in offering alternative flights along with some type of compensation for their troubles. Although I don't work for DL, UA model the system we currently use to handle oversold flights after DL's system which is how our IDBs have dropped down to 13 per million in a year. The system identifies oversold flights or flights that are historically weight restricted and gets customers to volunteer and offers alternatives in some cases before they ever reach the airport. This is what customers service should be and this is how airlines show customers that they value your time and your business, most passengers are appreciative when the airlines proactively let them know information and give them options that still gets them to their destination a few hours later than they planned. Customers get pissed off when airlines wait till they are at the gate to tell them the flight is over sold, we are taking your seat from you, and by the way we cant get you to your final destination for another 24-36 hours.

You will never be rid of oversales in this business, but it is how an airline manages the oversale that sets them apart. Like it or not of the US3 and WN, DL is clearly the best when it comes to managing oversales and their system works so great that UA copied it.
Last edited by jayunited on Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
xdlx
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:16 pm

Regardless of the bottom line.... If you are counting on the NO SHOW factor with todays revenue distribution automation to make a few MILLIONS.... WHY NOT MAKE BILLIONS by UPSELLING all the BASIC ECONOMY FARES 24h prior to departure. And assist the AIRPORT DAY OF DEPARTURE with the CHECK IN PROCESS
 
DDR
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:30 pm

Blueknows wrote:
There are no shows everyday. I know I see it everyday. Here is a crazy concept...are you ready.... if you have 150 seats...sell 150 tickets...booooom!!!mindblowing


I agree, but make sure all the fares are non-refundable. If you no-show then the airline keeps your money and you can buy a new ticket. That's only fair. Otherwise the airline could have sold your seat to someone else who would show up for the flight.
 
Blueknows
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:31 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:16 am

That’s just stupid. Listen I worked for a legacy carrier and overselling sucks. Listen I don’t want to go on another flight and get compensated. If you buy a ticket for a plane I want the plane and that’s it. You try doing oversold flights for a week and tell me what you think.
 
S0Y
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:25 pm

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:34 am

Overbooking is a rational way to run the business....but be prepared to have a good VDB progam to deal with things when you get it wrong. Its a cost/benefit balance that you need to figure out if you want to play that game.
IDB is a sign of sub-standard operations management. DL run a good operation, so it is no surprise their IDB rates are low. Lots of data points upthread on the tools they use to keep these numbers low.
There are always a handful of people who will happily take the next flight if the price is right. It would not surprise me if there are some that actively seek out such situations
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:44 am

AEROFAN wrote:
Blueknows wrote:
This revenue management doesn’t work. It’s greedy airlines trying to squeeze every dollar outta the customer. That’s why they make crazy restrictions on tickets. This is all designed to screw the customer. I used to work for continental express where we did this. Guess what we used to add dummy reservations. This way we wouldn’t be oversold. Then weight and balance in erj/crj aircraft


I hope you were fired for adding dummy reservations.


We used to do this as well when I worked for a carrier flying Metroliners. Booked to 19, but W/B only allowed 11 pax 0 bags! That's life on the ground at the airport.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1050
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:03 am

Four times I got an email after flying CVG-MEM asking me what I would have accepted as VDB compensation. Each time they had to IDB passengers. I'll never understand why they discontinued that flight. Load facotrs were around 85% and fares were a small fortune.
 
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Super80Fan
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:16 am

Delta, unlike many others it seems tries to get a lot of individuals to VDB by offering money and/or Delta vouchers. I know I volunteered a few different times and they were pretty good about it, offering not only money but also the next flight out/hotel on overnight flights or money/a better routing on normal flights, but there were always a few people who missed the flight/didn't take it so I always ended up on the original.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
UALFAson
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:16 am

Blueknows wrote:
There are no shows everyday. I know I see it everyday. Here is a crazy concept...are you ready.... if you have 150 seats...sell 150 tickets...booooom!!!mindblowing

Your statement completely contradicts itself. If an airline knows there are going to be no shows for a flight, why would they not sell some number of seats to other passengers rather than letting them fly out empty? That's revenue they're just completely forfeiting.

Blueknows wrote:
That’s just stupid. Listen I worked for a legacy carrier and overselling sucks. Listen I don’t want to go on another flight and get compensated. If you buy a ticket for a plane I want the plane and that’s it. You try doing oversold flights for a week and tell me what you think.

But people don't take the flights they are originally booked on all the time. What about elite frequent flyers who same-day standby for an earlier flight? And just because YOU don't want to go on another flight doesn't mean other people with flexible plans don't want to. I happily spent 2.5 hours in CVG as a grad stdt many years ago when DL overbooked my CVG-LAX connection. The $600 voucher I got almost paid for an L.A.-Belfast, N.I. trip I took the following year to do research for my thesis. I wish I made $240/hour in my current job the way I did that afternoon!

You sound like a disgruntled pre-Gordon Bethune Continental employee like he wrote about in his book.

xdlx wrote:
Regardless of the bottom line.... If you are counting on the NO SHOW factor with todays revenue distribution automation to make a few MILLIONS.... WHY NOT MAKE BILLIONS by UPSELLING all the BASIC ECONOMY FARES 24h prior to departure. And assist the AIRPORT DAY OF DEPARTURE with the CHECK IN PROCESS

First of all, please stop shouting by talking in random capital letters. Secondly, what are you even talking about? Basic economy fares are sold well in advance and not available 24 hours prior to departure. Airlines don't sell their cheapest fares at the last minute (like the $200 example you used in an early comment)--they want to sell a $1,000 walk-up fare. Even if they were to spend $400 in compensation to get a $250-fare passenger to take another flight to accommodate that $1,000 fare, the airline still comes out ahead in terms of total revenue. I'm sorry if gate agents don't like assigning Basic Economy passengers seats at the gate, but you know what--it's part of their job! Just like assigning seats to revenue standby passengers and non-rev standbys and anyone else.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
Blueknows
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:31 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:29 am

What is this the 80’s here. Who do you know just let’s you go standby for free on earlier flight? I get where your coming from you want a voucher. Just pony up and buy a ticket. There is no need to over sell flights period. It’s a stupid process and is annoying to customers. No overbooked flights leads to quicker turn times and better OTP.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3583
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:13 am

Blueknows wrote:
What is this the 80’s here. Who do you know just let’s you go standby for free on earlier flight? I get where your coming from you want a voucher. Just pony up and buy a ticket. There is no need to over sell flights period. It’s a stupid process and is annoying to customers. No overbooked flights leads to quicker turn times and better OTP.


Most majors let elite customers standby for free. My last year as an AA Gold I ended up standing by for an earlier flight more than half the time.
 
Blueknows
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:31 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:30 am

Ow I forget the legacy’s do that. I’ve been with an LCC for so long I forget sometimes.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1058
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:57 am

OB1504 wrote:
Blueknows wrote:
What is this the 80’s here. Who do you know just let’s you go standby for free on earlier flight? I get where your coming from you want a voucher. Just pony up and buy a ticket. There is no need to over sell flights period. It’s a stupid process and is annoying to customers. No overbooked flights leads to quicker turn times and better OTP.


Most majors let elite customers standby for free. My last year as an AA Gold I ended up standing by for an earlier flight more than half the time.

DL and AA (don’t know about UA but assume they do as well) also allow same day confirmed changes for a fee (which is waived for the top tiers of elites), i also use this option to switch my flights at least 1/3 of the time...

Just to follow on with what others have said, DL is in my experience is pretty proactive with asking for volunteers at checkin but also the other major difference I’ve seen is they ask a different question, rather than suggesting a dollar amount for you to move, they ask how much it would take for you to move, subtle, but psychologically it triggers a very different response.
1.4mm and counting...
 
User avatar
NeBaNi
Posts: 429
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:11 pm

HPAEAA wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Blueknows wrote:
What is this the 80’s here. Who do you know just let’s you go standby for free on earlier flight? I get where your coming from you want a voucher. Just pony up and buy a ticket. There is no need to over sell flights period. It’s a stupid process and is annoying to customers. No overbooked flights leads to quicker turn times and better OTP.


Most majors let elite customers standby for free. My last year as an AA Gold I ended up standing by for an earlier flight more than half the time.

DL and AA (don’t know about UA but assume they do as well) also allow same day confirmed changes for a fee (which is waived for the top tiers of elites), i also use this option to switch my flights at least 1/3 of the time...

Just to follow on with what others have said, DL is in my experience is pretty proactive with asking for volunteers at checkin but also the other major difference I’ve seen is they ask a different question, rather than suggesting a dollar amount for you to move, they ask how much it would take for you to move, subtle, but psychologically it triggers a very different response.

What sort of psychological response are you suggesting? In my experience, the last two DL flights I took had this option, and they had options of $200, $400, $600, $800, and a custom amount. I went on to enter $8000 on the custom amount box and the error message I got was the maximum accepted bid was $1000. So they do ask how much you want for you to move, but unfortunately you're still limited in what you can ask for.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 858
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL low involuntary denied boardings

Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:04 pm

This thread, and the responses, is the perfect illustration that Delta Air Lines is the company people love to hate because they are running a top notch operation.

DL is among the preferred US airlines (especially the global ones) by passengers, they have a high on-time departure and arrival, they have a low luggage complain rate, they have low involuntary denied boarding, they fly an efficient operation and generates tons of cash, and most of their employees are extremely happy to work for them; yet, there is always someone on a.net to bitch about DL.
Maybe it's because so many people are jealous of DL, its employees and its operations that there is no much hate on here...

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