ctrabs0114
Topic Author
Posts: 791
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Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:26 am

One of the Dallas TV stations is reporting network outages on DL, UA and WN, though there weren't any more details. These reports were initially reported on KDFW-TV (Fox 4) at 0625 CDT Monday morning (I don't know if there's anything posted online).

UPDATE (0630 CDT, 1APR19): Seeing some Twitter reports that there are computer issues with the three aforementioned airlines. I recall going through a WN network outage in 2016 (was stuck at ATL heading to RDU), but I can't recall three airlines having similar issues at the same time. I would think they're all on different networks, so this is just plain bizarre.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:33 am

Apparently, the Wall Street Journal has more details (I don't have a subscription, so I can't read the entire story; sorry for the inconvenience, but at least this confirms this is NOT an April Fool's joke:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest- ... 1?mod=e2tw

Bloomburg is reporting that AS is also impacted by delays:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ght-delays
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Themotionman
Posts: 198
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*NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:36 am

**NOT APRIL FOOLS**

Just had a notification on my phone of this

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/01/southwe ... tages.html

"Southwest, Delta and United airlines said they are experiencing system wide outages Monday."
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:44 am

Via AS official Twitter feed, this confirms that AS is also affected:

https://twitter.com/AlaskaAir/status/11 ... 8280262656

This reply confirms DL's system issues:

https://twitter.com/Delta/status/1112664608097996800

From B6 Twitter (though, I haven't heard any news reports about network-wide issues with B6 as of yet):

https://twitter.com/JetBlue/status/1112680840369180673

From UA's Twitter:

https://twitter.com/united/status/1112670184702042112

UPDATE (0640 CDT, 1APR19): Fox 4 (KDFW-TV) in Dallas reports some technical issues with a Weight/Balance system on WN; it's reported to be the same system used by UA, B6 and DL (though I hadn't heard anything about issues with B6 this morning).
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Scarebus34
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 am

No outages at UA... all systems are and have been normal. Some regional carriers may be effected but it’s not a UA issue and mainline not effected.
 
Themotionman
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 am

AA are reporting problems with AeroData.

Apparently WN issued a ground stop of 40 minutes earlier
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:47 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
No outages at UA... all systems are and have been normal.


That's interesting. I'm just going by what I've heard from news reports here in Dallas and what I saw online. It's possible that UA's issues weren't as widespread as DL or WN.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Themotionman
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:49 am

"We are currently experiencing a System-Wide Outage we are working diligently to get it back up and running. We do not have a specific time as yet," From Deltas twitter
 
Scarebus34
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:50 am

UA does not use AeroData and is not having any system issues. Some regional carriers are having issues as they use AeroData. Mainline UA has zero issues.
 
Themotionman
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:53 am

More coverage https://www.foxnews.com/travel/multiple ... s-airports

Apparently JetBlue and Alaska are affected aswell
 
Themotionman
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:54 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
UA does not use AeroData and is not having any system issues. Some regional carriers are having issues as they use AeroData. Mainline UA has zero issues.


So my guess is this UA tweet is referring the regional ops

"It appears that we are experiencing an outage that is impacting our ability to create release paperwork"
 
Scarebus34
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:55 am

Themotionman wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
UA does not use AeroData and is not having any system issues. Some regional carriers are having issues as they use AeroData. Mainline UA has zero issues.


So my guess is this UA tweet is referring the regional ops

"It appears that we are experiencing an outage that is impacting our ability to create release paperwork"

Yes. Most regional carriers use AeroData, mainline does not. Also the problem has reportedly been corrected and systems are slowly returning to normal status.
Last edited by Scarebus34 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:58 am

Why does this continue to happen?

How often are non-American carriers crippled by computer failures?

I’ve lived in China for 5 years and I’ve never heard of a Chinese airline grinding to a halt due to a computer glitch.
 
ericm2031
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:00 pm

Sounds like most of the regional carriers are down as well.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:01 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
Sounds like most of the regional carriers are down as well.

Yes, anyone who uses AeroData was down. I believe mainline United is one of the few that does not.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:02 pm

Fox 4's Dan Godwin is reporting live from DAL and confirming that B6 was also impacted in the software system outage that impacted WN, UA, DL and AS. I believe the name of the software is AeroData, but I might have misheard the live report.

Here's what Fox 4 posted:

http://www.fox4news.com/news/airlines-a ... um=twitter
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Scarebus34
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:09 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
Fox 4's Dan Godwin is reporting live from DAL and confirming that B6 was also impacted in the software system outage that impacted WN, UA, DL and AS. I believe the name of the software is AeroData, but I might have misheard the live report.

Here's what Fox 4 posted:

http://www.fox4news.com/news/airlines-a ... um=twitter

Yes. UA does not use AeroData. Some regional carriers do.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:29 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Why does this continue to happen?

How often are non-American carriers crippled by computer failures?

I’ve lived in China for 5 years and I’ve never heard of a Chinese airline grinding to a halt due to a computer glitch.


American airlines train their pilots, but not their IT staff?
 
smokeybandit
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Re: NEWS REPORTS: Possible system outage affecting DL, UA and WN

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:31 pm

Mass outages like this tend to be some trunk line of some sort cut, not the fault of any airline.
 
ual763
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:38 pm

I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
N757ST
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:47 pm

ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?


Most carriers can preform weight and balance through a program on their iPad.... they cannot however do runway specific takeoff data without aerodata. Without aerodata operational a release will not be able to be obtained, aerodata is part of the release.
 
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DL747400
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:47 pm

Delta phone agents said it is now resolved and was only affecting Delta Connection carriers, not mainline.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Boof02671
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Mainline AA was not effected and the airlines says the system is back up.
 
Boof02671
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:57 pm

ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?

It was effecting flight plans
 
ilovelamp
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:02 pm

ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?


Be careful about total and absolute blanket statements. Not all airlines have immediate or instantaneous access to manual W&B forms.


ILL
 
Boof02671
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:08 pm

It’s not a nationwide computer outage, what are you talking about?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:09 pm

The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo
 
ual763
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:17 pm

N757ST wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?


Most carriers can preform weight and balance through a program on their iPad.... they cannot however do runway specific takeoff data without aerodata. Without aerodata operational a release will not be able to be obtained, aerodata is part of the release.


Well, then we’ve really taken a step backwards. Do airlines not compile runway tables anymore? Back in the day, Airlines had printed runway tables for each airport which had the Information needed to manually calculate ATOG. This was in addition to also having the automated T/O performance summary attached to the release and/or through ACARS. Anytime there was an issue with the automated system, the runway tables were pulled out. With the info contained in the Flight Manuals, pilots could also calculate Assumed Temps, derates, etc.

Image
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Boof02671
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:18 pm

Can’t make a flight plan.
 
Junction
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:27 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Why does this continue to happen?

How often are non-American carriers crippled by computer failures?

I’ve lived in China for 5 years and I’ve never heard of a Chinese airline grinding to a halt due to a computer glitch.


It happens all over the world. Here's some examples for BA, QF, KL, SA, QR etc.
China too on the last one if any carriers there use Amadeus:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40069865
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/qantas-a ... age-474365
https://news.klm.com/statement-power-outage/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... ems-crash/
 
ual763
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:30 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Boof02671
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:31 pm

It’s about cost.
 
DeltaWings
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Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:17 pm

This is April fools
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:20 pm

DeltaWings wrote:
This is April fools

This happened, it’s not April Fools.
 
B737900ER
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:23 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
Why does this continue to happen?

How often are non-American carriers crippled by computer failures?

I’ve lived in China for 5 years and I’ve never heard of a Chinese airline grinding to a halt due to a computer glitch.

Because the media in China isn’t as rabid as the media in the US, where a 40 minute airline delay is breaking news. IT glitches have, and will continue to happen in all industries. You just never hear about 99% of them.
 
BCEaglesCO757
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:35 pm

ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob


I take it you are retired DX ? ATP ? Judging from that manual. Yes it can all be worked out by hand, but I dont see a bunch of releases being cranked out in 5-7 minutes as in the case of narrow bodies on domestic routes.

Certainly see a delay if you're working wide bodies over the drink. Like doing work without a calculator...it will take time.

The last time most dispatchers did a manual flight plan was probably during their practical. That taught you the steps and how to do it. Automation greatly sped up the process. An outage may require some to dust off their memory. Everyone can do math and calculations. Aerodata like calculators just makes it much faster....until the calculator breaks. Most outages I've seen personally involved having to manually email releases, weather package or the T/O data not going through, to an agent at the airport. I didnt have to do the calculations.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:41 pm

Not April fools just fake news. Lol

There used to be a manual with performance numbers for each airport and runway configuration, but that info went the way of the dodo with the paper reduction initiative in the cockpit. so now we are reduced to waiting for numbers. They covered the topic of doing manual takeoff calculations in recurrent ground years ago. But it’s so infrequently done that when you had to do manual calculations. It was sometimes faster to just wait for aerodata to get your numbers.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:46 pm

ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob


As boof... notes, it's about cost. If having flight crew do it by hand was more productive and reliable the many carriers wouldn't be using Aerodata software for these tasks. It's not 1965.
 
mcdu
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:15 pm

ual763 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?


Most carriers can preform weight and balance through a program on their iPad.... they cannot however do runway specific takeoff data without aerodata. Without aerodata operational a release will not be able to be obtained, aerodata is part of the release.


Well, then we’ve really taken a step backwards. Do airlines not compile runway tables anymore? Back in the day, Airlines had printed runway tables for each airport which had the Information needed to manually calculate ATOG. This was in addition to also having the automated T/O performance summary attached to the release and/or through ACARS. Anytime there was an issue with the automated system, the runway tables were pulled out. With the info contained in the Flight Manuals, pilots could also calculate Assumed Temps, derates, etc.

Image


No longer have those books available for manual runway data. It is all data driven through the computer. There is a process being created to have basically the book backup available on the iPad. Not sure how far along that back up process is in the implementation stage.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:24 pm

ual763 wrote:
I don’t understand how this can cause massive delays and cancellations... All airlines have a weight and balance worksheet that you can fill out and determine your W&B calculations on in ~ 5 minutes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Hell, they have people trained to do it. Not to mention most all dispatchers, and I would hope pilots, are trained on it to. Am I missing something?


No they don't. At my airline we have no manual process for pilots to process W&B. It's either done via ACARS or a phone call to dispatch. In any case, they still use the Aerodata system to get the numbers.
From my cold, dead hands
 
ual763
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:41 pm

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob


I take it you are retired DX ? ATP ? Judging from that manual. Yes it can all be worked out by hand, but I dont see a bunch of releases being cranked out in 5-7 minutes as in the case of narrow bodies on domestic routes.

Certainly see a delay if you're working wide bodies over the drink. Like doing work without a calculator...it will take time.

The last time most dispatchers did a manual flight plan was probably during their practical. That taught you the steps and how to do it. Automation greatly sped up the process. An outage may require some to dust off their memory. Everyone can do math and calculations. Aerodata like calculators just makes it much faster....until the calculator breaks. Most outages I've seen personally involved having to manually email releases, weather package or the T/O data not going through, to an agent at the airport. I didnt have to do the calculations.


Before I was referencing strictly the time to fill out the W&B worksheet. Obviously manual flight plans would take a lot longer.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Sancho99504
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Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:46 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob


As boof... notes, it's about cost. If having flight crew do it by hand was more productive and reliable the many carriers wouldn't be using Aerodata software for these tasks. It's not 1965.

Doing it by hand is accurate. What it is not, is cost effective. With most executives and upper management all getting their education from institutions that only teach about cutting costs, increasing the bottom line. With that in mind, we can manually get the data necessary to get to our destinations, but the computer can do it more effeciently. It's all about the cost index.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 620
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:48 pm

DeltaWings wrote:
This is April fools

You're right, just a way to screw all those passengers on RJs here in Seattle.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
bigb
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:58 pm

We were 40 minutes late coming out of BDL this morning because of this issue, luckily we got our release before Aerodata went down, one problem we were overfueled by our legal amount so we couldn’t get a new flight release with a new fuel number to be legal. While looking for options to defuel, I spun the whiz wheel and did a manual weight and balance and used the TO Data in our currently release. We got to a point where my Captain and I said F- it and started an engine at the gate to burn the fuel down to our legal amount then departed. We eventually caught up to be back on time for today.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 414
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Weight and balance calculation methods must be approved by the FAA. Even if pilots had the training and tools, if the airline dropped the authorization for the pilots to do it by paper when going to the electronic system then it would still be not legal.

Airlines do have backup methods for dispatchers to send out the releases and performance data. However, most dispatchers are doing several dozen flights. It is not a quick process. It usually only takes a couple minutes to plan a flight. With the back up methods you are talking at least 15-20 minutes per flight. IT outages are normally resolved fairly quickly. It is quicker to wait for the IT people to fix things as going to the manual method would cripple the airline anyways.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3928
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:32 pm

ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob
because the other 999 days out of 1000 it’s more efficient and over time causes a greater on time percentage. It also prevents a pilot from reading off the wrong line and having the wrong performance data.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3928
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:32 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ual763 wrote:

Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob


As boof... notes, it's about cost. If having flight crew do it by hand was more productive and reliable the many carriers wouldn't be using Aerodata software for these tasks. It's not 1965.

Doing it by hand is accurate. What it is not, is cost effective. With most executives and upper management all getting their education from institutions that only teach about cutting costs, increasing the bottom line. With that in mind, we can manually get the data necessary to get to our destinations, but the computer can do it more effeciently. It's all about the cost index.

And safer because the computer isn’t going to add wrong
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:41 pm

The last time I had to do manual weight and balance was for delivery flights from Mirabel. Because the airplane had not been accepted into the airline's weight and balance program yet, there was no BOW and index established to do the normal airline weight and balance and takeoff performance.

All of that would be done at the conformity check after the aircraft imported and delivered to the maintenance base.

So back to weight x arm = moment - private pilot stuff, then check on the CG chart in the manufactuer AFM for the nose trim setting.
Couldn't even do zone A, B, and C. each seat row had their moment-arm and we multiplied the arm by the weight of the passengers in the row and then summed up the moments.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Chemist
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Multiple US airlines experience disruption due to AeroData outage (now resolved)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:55 pm

Well that's the benefits of SAAS for you (software as a service).
No backup plans in place? Kind of a vulnerable spot there. A great way to take down the US airline system if you wanted to do a cyber attack.
 
ual763
Posts: 858
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: *NOT APRIL FOOLS* UA, DL, WN Sytemwide Outage

Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:41 pm

32andBelow wrote:
ual763 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The systems are all connected now

No flight plans, no manual weight and balance

You can do manual weight and balance...but you need a flight plan

In the last 10 years, airlines have become increasingly reliant on centralized systems that connect everything in one package

The ability to manually do things in the cockpit is going the way of the Dodo


Okay, I understand now. However, I think that the whole ideology that everything must be centralized and “one” is complete garbage. And for this very reason. If one thing goes down, it is just a ripple effect and it brings down the entire operation. As I posted above, and as you have alluded to at the bottom of your post, it didn’t use to be this way. Airlines had a FPF, a performance manual, a planned takeoff data message, a T/O gross weights telemeter message (similar to the runway tables I posted above), and then a whole manual full of runway tables. Pilots, in coordination with dispatch, could work out almost any performance and/or flight plan issue.

Rob
because the other 999 days out of 1000 it’s more efficient and over time causes a greater on time percentage. It also prevents a pilot from reading off the wrong line and having the wrong performance data.


As I said before, the old system was a BACKUP. Thought I made that pretty clear in one of my above posts. There was still an automated Planned T/O Data Message that was used for day-to-day use. Christ, I’m not advocating for manually planned flights & takeoffs all the time. But there was still the tools necessary to do it manually if the automated system failed like it did today. It didn’t take *that* long to do the performance calculations for a normal takeoff. Usually, less than 10 minutes and could easily be delegated to the FO or FE while the Captain continues the pre-flight checks. Was actually pretty easy. Usually consisted little more than adding and comparing weights on the weight manifest to the runway tables and a few corrections for alt./temp./wind/etc.

Again, the runway tables only came out as a backup... All I’m saying now, is an easy backup would’ve been nice to have after a day like today. At least in iPad pdf form. Glad to hear United is working on bringing those back onto the iPads!
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