Alaska Airlines has come a long way from having an all Boeing fleet and surely they must feel the sweet profits which the versatile and modern A3210NEOs are bringing. So how come they haven't ordered more in order to secure production slots?

Also, it may sound like a wild idea, but it might make sense for them to start looking at long haul destinations, the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

Do you follow anything in aviation? Alaska was an all Boeing fleet until it bought Virgin America. That's where it inherited the a320/321s from. They have not even taking delivery of an a320neo yet. Also I'm not understanding how Alaska could compare the the 737 Max economics to the a321neos when neither are in their fleet yet.

Well, there goes one of the most rationale thread openers I have ever read...

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Well, there goes one of the most rationale thread openers I have ever read...

The word is rational. Where are you?

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Do you follow anything in aviation? Alaska was an all Boeing fleet until it bought Virgin America. That's where it inherited the a320/321s from. They have not even taking delivery of an a320neo yet. Also I'm not understanding how Alaska could compare the the 737 Max economics to the a321neos when neither are in their fleet yet.

Actually they do have the A321neo in their fleet...

Because they still have plenty of MAXs and NEOs still on order. Who knows what the future holds for the NEO under Alaska, but I'm sure a MAX top up order is coming soon.

For one thing, AS is a small airline and as such is vulnerable to the effects of a mixed fleet increasing total costs and complexity. They were forced into buying VX, lest B6 make the purchase and leave AS as a tiny niche airline. However, their long-term fleet plan would naturally tend towards a single-type fleet. They are going to have to keep the A320s for now, but in the long-term, they have more 737s than A320s and a close, personal business relationship with Boeing.

Indeed AS has inherited the A321NEO from the Virgin America take over. I would love to see them also getting the A320NEO. Who knows.

A388

Having multiple NB types add a lot to the overall cost of operation. Does it really make sense for AS to have both series in their lineup? AS's own investor update shows than WN (with it's single fleet type) having CASM advantage. Now, I hear that they like A321NEO, but are not a big fan of A320s. It seems like just having a subfleet of A321NEOs doesn't justify the added cost of having a second fleet type. But what do I know.

afgeneral wrote:

Alaska Airlines has come a long way from having an all Boeing fleet and surely they must feel the sweet profits which the versatile and modern A3210NEOs are bringing. So how come they haven't ordered more in order to secure production slots?

Also, it may sound like a wild idea, but it might make sense for them to start looking at long haul destinations, the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

I tried not to laugh when I read this, but it's hard not to when it reads like a love letter to the A321 from an Airbus fanboy. The post makes it sound like AS is flying around a bunch of DC 9s, not a relatively new fleet of both Airbus and Boeing planes. Did AS never feel those "sweet profits" before the NEO arrived? Are they just going to cancel the MAXs they have coming because you prefer the NEO?

Also, if AS ever does dip their toe in the long haul market, I don't think they'll start with something as big as an A350. I'd bet 787/330NEO would be the choice, or something even smaller like 797 or 321LR.

We'll find out soon in any event. It's getting down to the wire to cancel the VX A320neo order.

The A321neo has been a good addition, and I expect they might convert the A320neo order to more A321neos rather than cancel it. They are big enough that it's not a huge problem to have both OEMs' aircraft in the fleet.

ALK has orders for 30-40 of both 737 MAX 9 and A320/A321 (though mostly A320). The issue with A320 is it seats about 30 less than the MAX 9 (3 economy rows). The CEO hinted at the analyst meeting at maybe going to one fleet provider again in the long-term, a decision would be made in 2019.

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

This is an Airline that had an internal memo touting their support for Boeing and takes pride in being an all Boeing airline probably more than any other airline in aviation, like an A.net fanboy airline. I'm surprised they haven't even dumped the Airbus planes

The current Max mess gives them cover to order further 321s (if they wanted cover)

I think they go back to all 737s

crescent wrote:

The issue with A320 is it seats about 30 less than the MAX 9 (3 economy rows).

30? 6x3 = 18. Certainly not equal to 30. Just my way of doing maths...

As others have said, AS has a close relationship with Boeing, and I am hoping they are the launch customer of the Boeing NMA as they were one of the airlines hoping for an NMA. I see no reason to have a mixed fleet given how small they are vs AA, UA, and DL. Also I hope they buy more Embraers once the deal goes through.

What's with the fascination of AS being an all-Boeing fleet? Am I the only one who remembers flying on their MD-80s? Or having recently been on E175s and Q400s with ALASKA painted on the side?

History says AS will use whichever aircraft will work best for their needs. Today that's the 737. Well, the 737 and the ex-VX A320s. Can't forget the further A320s on order. Oh, and Q400s and E175s with ALASKA painted on the sides. Point being: AS has more going on than just 737s.

Also, before you jump on me and say Horizon isn't Alaska, I'd point out that AS's branding strategy swallowed Horizon. So despite being separate companies (or owned subsidiaries or contractors in SkyWest's case), we all get to ride on QX and OO metal painted as Alaska, on Alaska tickets bought from Alaska.

afgeneral wrote:

Alaska Airlines ....... the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

Alaska has no market yet for an A350 class airplane. To build up a market and routes that could support an A350 would require smaller wide bodies in the interim for that market building. What makes airplanes fly? Money.

320NEO is a couple of rows smaller than they’d like. 321NEO has engine reliability issues. They’re waiting to see how MAX and NEO do comparatively. It’s Boeing’s order to lose when they do make one. The MAX grounding could effect things depending on how drawn out it ends up being.

DocLightning wrote:

For one thing, AS is a small airline and as such is vulnerable to the effects of a mixed fleet increasing total costs and complexity. They were forced into buying VX, lest B6 make the purchase and leave AS as a tiny niche airline. However, their long-term fleet plan would naturally tend towards a single-type fleet. They are going to have to keep the A320s for now, but in the long-term, they have more 737s than A320s and a close, personal business relationship with Boeing.

I would assume they are thanking god, that hey have not started to take deliveries of the 737-9, 32 on order.
They have also taken over the order of 10 A321neo with 8 delivered and 30 A320neo, non delivered.

I assume after the MAX fiasco, some airlines could review the single type policy.

If you're ever motivated to start a new thread like this, or 'What Would Replace Singapore Airlines' A333 and B772 Routes?', or 'What will replace American's A333?" I urge you to look at what the carrier has on order. Google searches are handy for this - as are company stock exchange filings. AS' annual report shows 168 Maxs on order. That's enough to turn over more than half the fleet. And AS doesn't have an old fleet!

durangomac wrote:

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

Alaska Airlines is flying A321neo with LEAP engines. But even for the GTF the engine failure rate today, is at the worst hit airline inside the failure rate that is acceptable for ETOPS 120, so not that bad.

MIflyer12 wrote:

If you're ever motivated to start a new thread like this, or 'What Would Replace Singapore Airlines' A333 and B772 Routes?', or 'What will replace American's A333?" I urge you to look at what the carrier has on order. Google searches are handy for this - as are company stock exchange filings. AS' annual report shows 168 Maxs on order. That's enough to turn over more than half the fleet. And AS doesn't have an old fleet!

This is great. AS does not have 168 MAX on order. Please look at the most recent 10K, an SEC filing you referenced. There are 32 MAX on order. Page 83.

http://investor.alaskaair.com/static-fi ... bcc53c0a0d

afgeneral wrote:

Alaska Airlines has come a long way from having an all Boeing fleet and surely they must feel the sweet profits which the versatile and modern A3210NEOs are bringing. So how come they haven't ordered more in order to secure production slots?

Also, it may sound like a wild idea, but it might make sense for them to start looking at long haul destinations, the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

739s are very profitable for AS too.

MIflyer12 wrote:

If you're ever motivated to start a new thread like this, or 'What Would Replace Singapore Airlines' A333 and B772 Routes?', or 'What will replace American's A333?" I urge you to look at what the carrier has on order. Google searches are handy for this - as are company stock exchange filings. AS' annual report shows 168 Maxs on order. That's enough to turn over more than half the fleet. And AS doesn't have an old fleet!

I would say google is very handy. Perhaps you follow your own advise and use it?

On the Boeing homepage I find 33 MAX on order for Alaska Airlines.
Wikipedia seems to nearly agree, showing 32 737-9.

Where do you find 168 MAX on order?

mjoelnir wrote:

durangomac wrote:

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

Alaska Airlines is flying A321neo with LEAP engines. But even for the GTF the engine failure rate today, is at the worst hit airline inside the failure rate that is acceptable for ETOPS 120, so not that bad.

AS is having issues with engine reliability on the 321NEO despite using the LEAP. TBO was extremely poor as of last August. They haven’t had inflight shutdown problems but that doesn’t mean they aren’t having any issues.

Nobody seems to be considering the money angle. VX leased all its planes and incoming aircraft are to be financed by GECAS and others. When AS bought out VX, the contracts could not just be ditched without a legal nightmare. Similarly all existing planes are leased meaning AS would need to break leases and that would be disastrous financially.

A complication is that VX was only a small operation and their lease rates might not be optimal for AS. It isn't as simple asd buy this, dump that and convert the other. There are contracts and liabilities to consider.

QXAS wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

durangomac wrote:

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

Alaska Airlines is flying A321neo with LEAP engines. But even for the GTF the engine failure rate today, is at the worst hit airline inside the failure rate that is acceptable for ETOPS 120, so not that bad.

AS is having issues with engine reliability on the 321NEO despite using the LEAP. TBO was extremely poor as of last August. They haven’t had inflight shutdown problems but that doesn’t mean they aren’t having any issues.

If the LEAP does that bad, they should perhaps cancel their MAX orders.

cschleic wrote:

Anyone remember the Dorniers and Fokkers and Convairs and Douglas prop planes, too?

The Convair was extra special. AS had a billboard that said "4 jets daily to Alaska!". It did not mention that all 4 were on the same aircraft.

As I heard the story, Boeing gave AS a really solid deal on their first 727 in exchange for Alaska NOT flying the Convair in and out of SEA.

mjoelnir wrote:

QXAS wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

Alaska Airlines is flying A321neo with LEAP engines. But even for the GTF the engine failure rate today, is at the worst hit airline inside the failure rate that is acceptable for ETOPS 120, so not that bad.

AS is having issues with engine reliability on the 321NEO despite using the LEAP. TBO was extremely poor as of last August. They haven’t had inflight shutdown problems but that doesn’t mean they aren’t having any issues.

If the LEAP does that bad, they should perhaps cancel their MAX orders.

If I remember the issue correctly and why it's impacting the 321neo's more is there is a slight difference in amount of protective coating inside the engine or because of the higher thrust rating on the engine for 321neo's that the protective coating is wearing faster than intended.This forces more engine changes than intended and at one point put AS unable to have enough engines to fly all the 321neo's. Something like the engines were staying on the wing only like a third of the time they were expected to be.

durangomac wrote:

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

The engine problems would be an excellent reason for AS to delay or cancel the A321 order.

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Do you follow anything in aviation? Alaska was an all Boeing fleet until it bought Virgin America. That's where it inherited the a320/321s from. They have not even taking delivery of an a320neo yet. Also I'm not understanding how Alaska could compare the the 737 Max economics to the a321neos when neither are in their fleet yet.

All 8 A321's Alaska has are A321neo's!

rbavfan wrote:

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Do you follow anything in aviation? Alaska was an all Boeing fleet until it bought Virgin America. That's where it inherited the a320/321s from. They have not even taking delivery of an a320neo yet. Also I'm not understanding how Alaska could compare the the 737 Max economics to the a321neos when neither are in their fleet yet.

All 8 A321's Alaska has are A321neo's!

With two more coming this year.

I’ve seen some doozy threads going back to my mod days in Airbus Vs Boeing battles, but this takes the circlejerk of the year award

An all 737 fleet works welk for AS. Having a handful of A321's makes no sense. Just like an all A320 family fleet works well for JetBlue. If they somehow inherited the 737-10 it wouldn't make any sense for them to keep it either.

jfklganyc wrote:

The current Max mess gives them cover to order further 321s (if they wanted cover)

I think they go back to all 737s

Exactly. I think they'll be a little more open to Airbus with the whole MAX calamity. I bet they're ecstatic that they didn't have the MAX 9 on property when this went down.

msp747 wrote:

afgeneral wrote:

Alaska Airlines has come a long way from having an all Boeing fleet and surely they must feel the sweet profits which the versatile and modern A3210NEOs are bringing. So how come they haven't ordered more in order to secure production slots?

Also, it may sound like a wild idea, but it might make sense for them to start looking at long haul destinations, the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

I tried not to laugh when I read this, but it's hard not to when it reads like a love letter to the A321 from an Airbus fanboy. The post makes it sound like AS is flying around a bunch of DC 9s, not a relatively new fleet of both Airbus and Boeing planes. Did AS never feel those "sweet profits" before the NEO arrived? Are they just going to cancel the MAXs they have coming because you prefer the NEO?

Also, if AS ever does dip their toe in the long haul market, I don't think they'll start with something as big as an A350. I'd bet 787/330NEO would be the choice, or something even smaller like 797 or 321LR.

I never tried to stop laughing, your response made my day. I heard a rumor once that AS once came close to buying a couple terrible teen 787's. It's not that there isn't an interest in a larger aircraft, it is mostly about the full digestion of VX since that opportunity arose, before AAG went in other directions.

QXAS wrote:

320NEO is a couple of rows smaller than they’d like. 321NEO has engine reliability issues. They’re waiting to see how MAX and NEO do comparatively. It’s Boeing’s order to lose when they do make one. The MAX grounding could effect things depending on how drawn out it ends up being.

I've been told, AAG isn't a fan of the VX layout on the 321neo & but do enjoy other aspects on this aircraft, mostly customer reviews I expect. I had heard the VX inherited birds will go back after the leases come up & will be replaced with the upcoming 737 & E175 arrivals. I would expect AS to up their orders from Boeing if this is the case, but only when they need to order them, based upon production line backlog. I've seen them flying SFO-SEA, SFO-DCA, SEA-DCA quite a bit. All Boeing to Hawaii & most trans-cons at this point. I think it's pretty common knowledge the VX birds didn't come at very favorable lease terms, AAG can likely obtain much more favorable terms on 737-800/900 or Max 8/9 from Boeing wanting to keep their more sizable business.

afgeneral wrote:

Alaska Airlines has come a long way from having an all Boeing fleet and surely they must feel the sweet profits which the versatile and modern A3210NEOs are bringing. So how come they haven't ordered more in order to secure production slots?

Also, it may sound like a wild idea, but it might make sense for them to start looking at long haul destinations, the A350 would be a prime candidate for that. It could make it easy to get into long haul flying since the partial commonality with the A320 series.

1. They have “slots” for 30 neo’s. How many more do they need exactly?
2. A350? Smdh

maps4ltd wrote:

I bet they're ecstatic that they didn't have the MAX 9 on property when this went down.

Well no shit. Please tell me that this wasn’t considered an epiphany?

I would like to see a321neo and 737-10 compared with similar thrust compared with similar interior. When it comes to Alaska I would like to see Boeing only fleet. Will it happen?
Most probably not, because nearly every airline except ULCC-s or Southwest has two types in its subsidiary or directly airline. I think a321neo LR and XLR would make sense for United from EWR to unserved European cities which would like to have “N” registration. A350 is more like 777-200er successor. Uhhh NMA...

Likely headed back to all 737 for bigger planes.
Fly on Alaska a lot.

Had my first experience on a horizon run e175. This was a huge leap from long ago horizon q400 flight.

The service one the e175 was identical to that of a 738 flight. Carts, drinks, frequency. Etc. even the flight attendant uniform.
This seems to be the secret sauce that Alaska is capitalizing on. If your on a e175, 737 or airbus. It all feels the same to the flying passenger no matter what metal your on.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

durangomac wrote:

When the 321neo is flying it's a great plane but the engine problems are a huge drag on the aircraft's profits. For that reason the 321neo's are really not that great currently for AS. I suspect that once the engine issues are fixed then AS will do more analysis to verify that the plane is really profitable as people think it is.

The engine problems would be an excellent reason for AS to delay or cancel the A321 order.

And replace perhaps A321neo, with unreliable LEAP engines, with 737MAX with LEAP engines?

The simple answer would be, they have enough on order, 30 of them.

seabosdca wrote:

We'll find out soon in any event. It's getting down to the wire to cancel the VX A320neo order.

The A321neo has been a good addition, and I expect they might convert the A320neo order to more A321neos rather than cancel it. They are big enough that it's not a huge problem to have both OEMs' aircraft in the fleet.

I was thinking the same. AS will simply convert the A320NEO's into the larger yet better CASM A321NEO's.

crimsonchin wrote:

This is an Airline that had an internal memo touting their support for Boeing and takes pride in being an all Boeing airline probably more than any other airline in aviation, like an A.net fanboy airline. I'm surprised they haven't even dumped the Airbus planes

They’re a business that understands their market. That’s marketing.

Business marketing: “Boeing is a huge customer. We share a hometown. The Puget Sound area loves Boeing. We love the 737. We don’t need a mixed fleet. Boeing takes great care of us. Many of our employees have family that works at Boeing and take pride in having a Boeing fleet. How can we leverage that? How about we play up the hometown connection, put that pride on our planes, and make a few bucks off of it? Win-Win-Win.”

Vs

Boeing Fanboy Company: “God I love Boeing planes! Regardless of what’s working for us or what would work for us, we will only ever buy Boeing planes!” [hiding MD80 scale model under desk]

As an employee at Alaska I can tell you that the chances of keeping any of the Airbus fleet long term is close to zero. The airbus fleet will returned as the leases expire if not faster. Look for replacement aircraft to be E175s flown by Skywest and Horizon with a likely small order of 737s.