Kind of old news but didn’t notice it discussed anywhere here. Looks like the 321T will operate several of Americans BOS-LAX segments. Is there a demand for that type of premium service in BOS? How is JetBlue mint performing on this route?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... tal-route/

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

9w748capt wrote:

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

That’s it? Thanks for the input.

ABEguy wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

That’s it? Thanks for the input.

What do you think? I mean B6 serves BOS-LAX with Mint, right? So don't you think it makes sense for AA to compete for some of that premium business?

I'd guess it has more to do with fleet utilization than actually wanting to provide a premium product on such a short segment.

BOS is probably the highest-yielding destination within a certain distance from JFK that allows for quick turns between transcons. Secondarily it might be to provide some product continuity to compete with Mint.

ABEguy wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

That’s it? Thanks for the input.

What else is there to say? AA has conducted extensive analyses and undoubtedly considered other routes and they think there's a market for the A321T on LAX-BOS.

airportugal310 wrote:

Isn't UA running 757's on that route, too, with the lie-flat?

Yep, looking at tomorrow the 6th for example 12 flights from BOS-LAX, 2 UA 757's with lie-flat, 2 DL, one 757 with lie-flat, one 738 with standard domestic first, and 4 B6 all with lie-flat. I would imagine the AA flight will be successful, 7 of 12 flights are already running lie-flat options.

UA, B6, and DL have upped the ante and AA could not sit there and do nothing but fly the 737-800 with no premium touches and no lie flat.

Makes total sense, UA/B6/AA/DL all use lie-flats from BOS-LAX/SFO

Longhornmaniac wrote:

I'd guess it has more to do with fleet utilization than actually wanting to provide a premium product on such a short segment.

BOS is probably the highest-yielding destination within a certain distance from JFK that allows for quick turns between transcons. Secondarily it might be to provide some product continuity to compete with Mint.

The segment mentioned is BOS-LAX (not BOS-JFK). I don't think BOS-LAX is a short segment and I don't think this is about fleet utilisation but about premium demand and competition out of BOS.

ABEguy wrote:

Is there a demand for that type of premium service in BOS?

Everyone else does it, AA is late to the party.

ABEguy wrote:

How is JetBlue mint performing on this route?

IMO the US 3 will roll right over them, not just in BOS but also anywhere else they are threatened. Looking at what the US 3 do at their hub to hub flying, one sees more lie-flat planes domestically than ever before, and they finally seem to be able to monetize the product sufficiently after years of giveaways and cutbacks. The loser are the flyover states, stuck with domestic first seats unless you're going say AA DFW - LAX on a 789 or to MIA on a 772 or DEN - SFO on a UA 772 A model.

The US 3 are all about the network they offer, especially through alliances rather than code share, and the likes of B6 and WN have nothing to offer there.

As others have said AA is late to the party, as has been typical in the last few years. They really only put their best product forward when they are forced to compete. B6 Mint does well on the route has a formidable FF base in BOS, which at times commands higher fares on BOS-LAX for B6 Mint than AA, DL and UA. Additionally B6 has been able to capture more corporate contracts out of BOS with the expansion of Mint services. The main loser on the route is AS, which will have the worst product by far on the route, even with the new AS cabin. Y fares on BOS-LAX are at the lower end for transcons.

ua900 wrote:

ABEguy wrote:

Is there a demand for that type of premium service in BOS?

Everyone else does it, AA is late to the party.

ABEguy wrote:

How is JetBlue mint performing on this route?

IMO the US 3 will roll right over them, not just in BOS but also anywhere else they are threatened. Looking at what the US 3 do at their hub to hub flying, one sees more lie-flat planes domestically than ever before, and they finally seem to be able to monetize the product sufficiently after years of giveaways and cutbacks. The loser are the flyover states, stuck with domestic first seats unless you're going say AA DFW - LAX on a 789 or to MIA on a 772 or DEN - SFO on a UA 772 A model.

The US 3 are all about the network they offer, especially through alliances rather than code share, and the likes of B6 and WN have nothing to offer there.

Well you’re wrong. Mint has been very successful and without it, their ability to maintain transcon presence would be in doubt. As for flyover country , no one needs a lie flat on DFW-LAX. If one shows up on that route, it is due to repositioning the aircraft.

Bobloblaw wrote:

Well you’re wrong. Mint has been very successful and without it, their ability to maintain transcon presence would be in doubt. As for flyover country , no one needs a lie flat on DFW-LAX. If one shows up on that route, it is due to repositioning the aircraft.

Sure, for a quick ex-BOS or NYC domestic milk run I'd be covered and agreed that w/o Mint B6 transcon would be the next AS or VX. But there's near zero value to B6 outside of the U.S. since they aren't part of an alliance and don't fly long haul. I routinely fly 12-17 hour legs and connect to alliance partners. I used to fly VX and liked their fresh approach, it took some getting used to but was innovative and a welcome departure from a really bland branding like UA.

A long time ago, I flew WN and it was very casual and much like an extended family, including that weird aunt (or uncle) who smelled up the whole plane from RNO to BOI after what must have been three days at the local casinos. But VX wasn't able to maintain a competitive transcon product (much like AS, unless you really like pancakes) and WN had the same old alliance / international problem. So yes, B6 manages to survive and hang on, but it's a niche product, much like a HA A332. Great if you're going to/from Hawai'i, but not that great if your world has six or seven continents instead of just one or two.

Flyover flat beds are a nice extra, I'm sure some rubes appreciate them and for everyone else it's not as a big of an adjustment as it used to be when switching from an int'l leg to a domestic one. I'm pretty sure that the DFW-LAX 787s run 1x or 2x daily, same with UA and DEN 772 to LAX or SFO. "Showing up" sounds like an accident, when it's really more of a strategy to make domestic hub to hub flying more attractive, especially in the case of the UA 772As, which aren't used much on TATL anymore, except maybe DUB.

ua900 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

Well you’re wrong. Mint has been very successful and without it, their ability to maintain transcon presence would be in doubt. As for flyover country , no one needs a lie flat on DFW-LAX. If one shows up on that route, it is due to repositioning the aircraft.

Sure, for a quick ex-BOS or NYC domestic milk run I'd be covered and agreed that w/o Mint B6 transcon would be the next AS or VX. But there's near zero value to B6 outside of the U.S. since they aren't part of an alliance and don't fly long haul. I routinely fly 12-17 hour legs and connect to alliance partners. I used to fly VX and liked their fresh approach, it took some getting used to but was innovative and a welcome departure from a really bland branding like UA.

A long time ago, I flew WN and it was very casual and much like an extended family, including that weird aunt (or uncle) who smelled up the whole plane from RNO to BOI after what must have been three days at the local casinos. But VX wasn't able to maintain a competitive transcon product (much like AS, unless you really like pancakes) and WN had the same old alliance / international problem. So yes, B6 manages to survive and hang on, but it's a niche product, much like a HA A332. Great if you're going to/from Hawai'i, but not that great if your world has six or seven continents instead of just one or two.

Flyover flat beds are a nice extra, I'm sure some rubes appreciate them and for everyone else it's not as a big of an adjustment as it used to be when switching from an int'l leg to a domestic one. I'm pretty sure that the DFW-LAX 787s run 1x or 2x daily, same with UA and DEN 772 to LAX or SFO. "Showing up" sounds like an accident, when it's really more of a strategy to make domestic hub to hub flying more attractive, especially in the case of the UA 772As, which aren't used much on TATL anymore, except maybe DUB.

UA already dominates the premium traffic on DEN to LAX and SFO, they don’t need a lie flat product. Ditto AA on DFW LAX. Hub to hub is already attractive because well, it’s hub to hub. Who else flies more times per day between said airports?

So because WN doesn’t belong to an alliance, are they a niche carrier? I guess B6 is a niche carrier. BOS number 1 choice of corporate clients and they hold their own fine in NYC against DL and UA’s hubs in NYC. You’re over estimating the impact global alliances have on corporate travelers choosing a domestic carrier.

I should add the vast majority of corporate trvalers don’t fly in premium cabins

AA has flown 3 class Flagship service from LAX-BOS beginning in the mid to late 1980s. Here is an ad showing it (see post 50).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1415417&hilit=Lambswool

Imo, the fact is B6 offers an excellent hard & soft product compared to their competition. I also feel AA wouldn't be adding their A321Ts if it wasn't for B6 offering a far superior product across the board in all classes. I know several who now fly B6 transcons exclusively even if does cost a bit more.

Is AA going to utilize the A321Ts on all their LAX-BOS flights?

I do agree AS is going to need to do something with their premium product to remain competitive in the LAX/SFO-BOS/JFK, whether they develop a sub-fleet offering a product similar to B6, or drop their fares. It will be interesting to see what AS will do in the coming months with these two particular routes.

Old news and also not the first time the A321T is put on this route.
https://onemileatatime.com/american-a321t-boston-lax/

From Q3
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSLAX 2611 AA 156056 258.26 254.84 373.06 97.11% 172.1 1081 83.86% 213.72
BOSLAX 2611 AS 58292 224.49 223.00 359.47 98.90% 153.3 457 83.23% 185.6
BOSLAX 2611 B6 103427 287.55 287.16 369.04 99.52% 159.0 728 89.35% 256.58
BOSLAX 2611 DL 73457 285.67 279.82 412.21 95.58% 166.4 496 89.00% 249.03
BOSLAX 2611 UA 81639 256.53 254.6 290.7 94.66% 178.5 525 87.11% 221.8

This was an epic disaster of a route for AA. It switched 2 flights out of 5/6 to A321T to get some revenue back since their market share approach was just bleeding money. btw, these are also terrible numbers for DL/UA considering they are operating lie flat here.

ua900 wrote:

But there's near zero value to B6 outside of the U.S. since they aren't part of an alliance and don't fly long haul. I routinely fly 12-17 hour legs and connect to alliance partners.

That doesn't describe most U.S. flyers, nor most BOS flyers. You ought to develop the self-awareness that your pattern is not the norm. Mint is a good product for select JFK/BOS transcon markets.

I know DL provides small meal boxes for Y pax on both their LAX and SFO transcons out of BOS, do any other airlines? I'm wondering if we could see AA follow suit with the changes they are bringing to the route (though I could be behind in my news)

mikegigs wrote:

I know DL provides small meal boxes for Y pax on both their LAX and SFO transcons out of BOS, do any other airlines? I'm wondering if we could see AA follow suit with the changes they are bringing to the route (though I could be behind in my news)

<RANT>Few things are as annoying as meal service on a TCON or TATL flight but when it's a red-eye, it's the absolute worse. Meal service on red-eyes should be outright banned Just turn the lights off and let us rest. </RANT>

B6 has forced everyone's hand on BOS transcons. With such a good premium product in MINT the only option is to try and match with lie flat or lose out on the high paying business travelers entirely.

ABEguy wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

That’s it? Thanks for the input.

lmao.. right

HIA350 wrote:

ABEguy wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

Obviously there's premium demand out of BOS.

That’s it? Thanks for the input.

lmao.. right

You guys seem to be lacking common sense and critical thinking ability.

Bobloblaw wrote:

So because WN doesn’t belong to an alliance, are they a niche carrier? I guess B6 is a niche carrier. BOS number 1 choice of corporate clients and they hold their own fine in NYC against DL and UA’s hubs in NYC. You’re over estimating the impact global alliances have on corporate travelers choosing a domestic carrier.

I should add the vast majority of corporate trvalers don’t fly in premium cabins

Because they don't belong *and* don't fly long distance. Their growth will always be limited to whatever their home town and the relatively few towns they serve have to offer. They can be a great airline and still be hampered by that.

Appeal of the US 3 isn't just because of alliances, it's also because of better treatment / service, access to facilities, the ability to fly intercontinental on their own metal, better IRROPS handling, and lastly perhaps being a hub captive. Every flight to Europe or Asia comes with lots of choices of carriers, but B6 doesn't even bid for that business since they don't fly there, and at a certain length most companies will still do business class. Of course it's hard to reach an eight hour mark domestically, but if you have someone you use internationally that you fly business on and put all your eggs in one basket, that someone is more likely to win the domestic bids too since it may very well translate into one or more of the above benefits.

The US 3 benefit greatly from corporate travelers who don't get allowed to book premium cabins domestically, but travel enough internationally to get status with one of the US 3. Once you have that, you might as well use it, especially once it translates into million miler with lifetime benefits who also happens to travel in international premium cabins. The new Polaris lounges for examples are quite nice, I'd say even better than the old United Global First lounges. Same with the true Polaris Product, nicer than the old Global First and a huge step up from the old BusinessFirst product. So seeing what might have been the old BusinessFirst type product now deployed domestically, that's still a win.

MIflyer12 wrote:

That doesn't describe most U.S. flyers, nor most BOS flyers. You ought to develop the self-awareness that your pattern is not the norm. Mint is a good product for select JFK/BOS transcon markets.

You don't have to aim for "most U.S. flyers" to make more premium heavy cabins work, just the most frequent 10-20%. Get someone who spent $8k / year to spend $10k / year two years later, and then onwards to $12k / year as they go through their life cycle. Likewise, when filling up a newly created "Premium Economy" cabin, the intention isn't to have a >50% conversion rate from regular economy. Given the mini cabin for that on most carriers, a 10-15% conversion rate from regular economy is all that they can stomach anyway. The US 3 are chasing incremental spend with more granular customer segmentation, trying not to leave any dollars on the table, much like many other businesses. Their size and scale gives them an edge in this effort.

Not dissing Mint or B6 on these routes, I appreciate competition because it keeps the US 3 honest. For all I care, B6 and HA should expand further to give the US 3 a run for their money and keep encouraging them to tinker with more premium products domestically. I hope that Mint, B6 and all the other competitors will be around forever.

And here I just wish we could get some premium 3-class or lie flat business transcon IAD-LAX/SFO.... Been wishing for it ever since the days of UA P.S. Ugh.

Pellegrine wrote:

And here I just wish we could get some premium 3-class or lie flat business transcon IAD-LAX/SFO.... Been wishing for it ever since the days of UA P.S. Ugh.

I previously asked the question regarding 3-class service from DCA and the answer has always been that there isn't enough premium demand to justify the A321T. It always seemed strange that DC, with its high power lawyers and lobbyists, can't support one or two A321T flights.

tphuang wrote:

From Q3
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSLAX 2611 AA 156056 258.26 254.84 373.06 97.11% 172.1 1081 83.86% 213.72
BOSLAX 2611 AS 58292 224.49 223.00 359.47 98.90% 153.3 457 83.23% 185.6
BOSLAX 2611 B6 103427 287.55 287.16 369.04 99.52% 159.0 728 89.35% 256.58
BOSLAX 2611 DL 73457 285.67 279.82 412.21 95.58% 166.4 496 89.00% 249.03
BOSLAX 2611 UA 81639 256.53 254.6 290.7 94.66% 178.5 525 87.11% 221.8

This was an epic disaster of a route for AA. It switched 2 flights out of 5/6 to A321T to get some revenue back since their market share approach was just bleeding money. btw, these are also terrible numbers for DL/UA considering they are operating lie flat here.

A $250 average fare probably means that nobody is making money on the route, but I'm intrigued by your comment that these are terrible numbers for DL and UA. All three US3 have higher average fair and average yield compared to JerBlue, and yet we are led to believe that Mint has taken a big share of the corporate market. It appears from your data that this isn't a money making machine for B6.

IAD-LAX also goes back to the mid to late 1980s with 3 class 762 aircraft with sleeper seats in P class and footrests in J, with one of American’s flights even continuing onto SAN.

Byrdluvs747 wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

And here I just wish we could get some premium 3-class or lie flat business transcon IAD-LAX/SFO.... Been wishing for it ever since the days of UA P.S. Ugh.

I previously asked the question regarding 3-class service from DCA and the answer has always been that there isn't enough premium demand to justify the A321T. It always seemed strange that DC, with its high power lawyers and lobbyists, can't support one or two A321T flights.

Fliers in DC are cheap I guess. I don't know I always fly domestic F out of DCA, BA F/J out of IAD, and domestic F to JFK to connect to more obscure carriers. (Like before CX came to IAD, and still SQ).

afcjets wrote:

IAD-LAX also goes back to the mid to late 1980s with 3 class 762 aircraft with sleeper seats in P class and footrests in J, with one of American’s flights even continuing onto SAN.

Ok but when did that end, and where are we now? I'm 32 years old. I haven't taken any 3-class 762s to LAX.

Pellegrine wrote:

afcjets wrote:

IAD-LAX also goes back to the mid to late 1980s with 3 class 762 aircraft with sleeper seats in P class and footrests in J, with one of American’s flights even continuing onto SAN.

Ok but when did that end, and where are we now? I'm 32 years old. I haven't taken any 3-class 762s to LAX.

I flew on it in 2001 and I think it lasted through at least 2006 or 2008 if not longer. Just like MIA-LAX it was only certain flights in later years, although MIA-LAX has never been 100% three class on AA.

RyanairGuru wrote:

tphuang wrote:

From Q3
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSLAX 2611 AA 156056 258.26 254.84 373.06 97.11% 172.1 1081 83.86% 213.72
BOSLAX 2611 AS 58292 224.49 223.00 359.47 98.90% 153.3 457 83.23% 185.6
BOSLAX 2611 B6 103427 287.55 287.16 369.04 99.52% 159.0 728 89.35% 256.58
BOSLAX 2611 DL 73457 285.67 279.82 412.21 95.58% 166.4 496 89.00% 249.03
BOSLAX 2611 UA 81639 256.53 254.6 290.7 94.66% 178.5 525 87.11% 221.8

This was an epic disaster of a route for AA. It switched 2 flights out of 5/6 to A321T to get some revenue back since their market share approach was just bleeding money. btw, these are also terrible numbers for DL/UA considering they are operating lie flat here.

A $250 average fare probably means that nobody is making money on the route, but I'm intrigued by your comment that these are terrible numbers for DL and UA. All three US3 have higher average fair and average yield compared to JerBlue, and yet we are led to believe that Mint has taken a big share of the corporate market. It appears from your data that this isn't a money making machine for B6.

What are you looking at here? For non-stop itinerary, B6 is at $287 with 89% lf. DL is at $280 with 89% lf. AA is at $254 with 84% LF. UA is at $255 with 87% LF. B6 is the highest yielding carrier here with the lowest cost. Please help me out here?

This is a decently profitable route for B6 at their cost level. This is a really bad route for AA when you compare to what they typically expect on a transcon route (which is at least $300 in average fare at about 85% LF in summer time). This is a really bad route for DL since the comparable D1 routes like JFK-LAX is getting $414 average fare at 92% LF, JFK-SFO is getting $357 average fare at 89% LF.

here is a look at a similar route DCA-LAX, which is actually quite a bit shorter, but DL has D1 product here and AA is non-premium
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
DCALAX 2311 AA 55413 320.5 326.65 298.27 78.33% 166.90 367 90.47% 295.51
DCALAX 2311 DL 27899 334.84 336.95 327.71 77.18% 168.30 184 90.09% 303.56
Notice how both is over $320 in non-stop average fares with 90% LF.

Pellegrine wrote:

Byrdluvs747 wrote:

Pellegrine wrote:

And here I just wish we could get some premium 3-class or lie flat business transcon IAD-LAX/SFO.... Been wishing for it ever since the days of UA P.S. Ugh.

I previously asked the question regarding 3-class service from DCA and the answer has always been that there isn't enough premium demand to justify the A321T. It always seemed strange that DC, with its high power lawyers and lobbyists, can't support one or two A321T flights.

Fliers in DC are cheap I guess. I don't know I always fly domestic F out of DCA, BA F/J out of IAD, and domestic F to JFK to connect to more obscure carriers. (Like before CX came to IAD, and still SQ).

There is plenty of premium demand at DC. The difference is there is no mint competition there. AA is putting A321T here because it's getting killed with current lineup.

Pellegrine wrote:

afcjets wrote:

IAD-LAX also goes back to the mid to late 1980s with 3 class 762 aircraft with sleeper seats in P class and footrests in J, with one of American’s flights even continuing onto SAN.

Ok but when did that end, and where are we now? I'm 32 years old. I haven't taken any 3-class 762s to LAX.

The ad from 1994 in post 50 in the link below specifically mentions IAD-LAX and says where Flagship service is now available. It sounds like it was new then but it was only new in the MIA ones and JFK-SAN. The service was over the top in P, five course meal (or it may have been seven like international then) with caviar and pewter plates. Champagne, orange, juice, mimosas for pre departure beverage. Wide sleeper seats with leather and lambswool that lied almost flat vs the narrow contraptions offered today.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1415417&hilit=Lambswool

tphuang wrote:

From Q3
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSLAX 2611 AA 156056 258.26 254.84 373.06 97.11% 172.1 1081 83.86% 213.72
BOSLAX 2611 AS 58292 224.49 223.00 359.47 98.90% 153.3 457 83.23% 185.6
BOSLAX 2611 B6 103427 287.55 287.16 369.04 99.52% 159.0 728 89.35% 256.58
BOSLAX 2611 DL 73457 285.67 279.82 412.21 95.58% 166.4 496 89.00% 249.03
BOSLAX 2611 UA 81639 256.53 254.6 290.7 94.66% 178.5 525 87.11% 221.8

This was an epic disaster of a route for AA. It switched 2 flights out of 5/6 to A321T to get some revenue back since their market share approach was just bleeding money. btw, these are also terrible numbers for DL/UA considering they are operating lie flat here.

Will be interesting to see if AS sticks around much longer. Lowest loads and by far lowest fare. Assume they want to be in this market given the California focus, but that flight is a real dud for them.