MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Correct. In 1985 EA was the largest airline in the western world. By the time of the strike in 1989 it was seventh in US.

That’s incredible!

Perhaps it was just a bad ending but Eastern doesn’t seem to have a positive reputation. Was EA ever considered to be a well run airline? How did its inflight service compare to competitors?

Why did Eastern’s concourses at ATL — was it C or D or both? — built so much narrower than DL’s concourses A and B?

Eastern operated from all of Concourse C and half of B. Delta had all of A and the other half of B. D concourse was built so narrow because the remaining airlines were mainly O&D and didn't need the width A, B, and C needed for connecting passengers. Eastern even had a shortcut built between B north and C to facilitate connections. Its no longer in use but was a easy way to get between the 2 without walking all the way to the midpoint to catch the train.

questions wrote:

Why did Eastern’s concourses at ATL — was it C or D or both? — built so much narrower than DL’s concourses A and B?

Concourse C was partially built for commuter airlines. I remember ASA and Eastern's commuter airlines using the concourse for commuter flights. Concourse D was the same size as A and B.

“Wings of Man”; true EA carried more people than AA or DL in the early-mid 80s. Out O&D’d DL in ATL, too. Th3 fleet was 284 strong in ‘85. From the earliest days under Rickenbacher, it was always skimpy on service, though, even in the crazy days of regulation where airlines competed on frills. Rickenbacher didn’t want stewardesses, “my pilots make enough to get their own dames”. ATA senior members were given passes on various airline, he hated to give out free seats. I don’t if it was C.R. Smith or Pat Peterson who said, “don’t worry Eddie, one ride on EAL and they won’t be back.”

That said, EA pilots had a great reputation, often had the best contracts. EA introduced the B727, the L1011, the B757, gave Airbus its US entry, built the Shuttle, and were one of the founding airlines in the US, along with OAS, UAL, AA.

Go see the memorial plaque at the N5 terminal door in ATL.

GF

Atlwarrior wrote:

questions wrote:

Why did Eastern’s concourses at ATL — was it C or D or both? — built so much narrower than DL’s concourses A and B?

Concourse C was partially built for commuter airlines. I remember ASA and Eastern's commuter airlines using the concourse for commuter flights. Concourse D was the same size as A and B.

ASA initially utilized D concourse and Eastern Metro commuter was on the south end of C. D was constructed much more narrower width wise then A, B and C because it was considered the O&D concourse. And any domestic airline serving ATL not named DL or EA was sent there.

September11 wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Atlwarrior wrote:

Eastern's Atlanta hub was awesome. I would imagine Delta would have around 700 flight and Eastern 350 if they were still around today. I used to love watching the A300 from Concourse D in Atlanta takeoff. You could always tell what type of aircraft it was without seeing it, because of the A300 very distinct sound before leaving the ground at full speed.

Eastern still had about 280-300 mainline flights at the time of the strike in 1989. A real strong number 2 to Delta. Had been No. 1 in Atlanta till about 1985.

Not only Eastern was #1 in Atlanta but Eastern carried the most passengers worldwide in 1985. Now that's a serious downfall. The public was shocked to see Eastern fold that way in few years.

Agreed. People seem to forget Eastern was larger at ATL then Delta was. Only towards the shutdown and after did Delta grow to the size they are. ATL had been a 2 carrier hub since the early 1960's.

questions wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Correct. In 1985 EA was the largest airline in the western world. By the time of the strike in 1989 it was seventh in US.

That’s incredible!

Perhaps it was just a bad ending but Eastern doesn’t seem to have a positive reputation. Was EA ever considered to be a well run airline? How did its inflight service compare to competitors?

Eastern always had a reputation for mediocre service it seems going back into the 1970's. That doesn't mask the fact they were huge by the standard of that period (like AA now that has a mediocre service reputation but is huge), a time with far more regional airlines and few national carriers. Only UA and to a lesser extent TW and AA had national networks. No airline had the frequency of flight north to south east of Mississippi that EA had. Not even close, and in a time with more regionalization in general in American life that made them massive because it was tough to avoid them if you flew up and down the east coast. Eventually DL got there as a competitor but for years Eastern was almost unavoidable if you lived in Northeast, Carolina's or Florida. Delta was always an option in Atlanta, but Eastern was until about 1985 or 1986 actually bigger at ATL than DL. Eastern actually had quite a large operation at CLT until the mid 1980's, were larger in PHL than US/AL until about 1986 or 1987, largest airline at LGA, DCA, MIA, MCO and TPA for most of the 1970's and 1980's and a strong number two at FLL, EWR and BOS. Also EA was quite big at ORD off and on and had a decent sized IAH operation for a while. MCI was a new hub formed in 1983 that by 1988 was gone. It seems had EA and TW ever merged their route systems were complimentary and that airline would have been a behemoth domestically and internationally. Alas are both gone today, and AA basically had what the combined route map would have looked like before the US merger and the JFK pulldown and abandonment of other non-hub flying.

Cody wrote:

Pilawt wrote:

I can tell you first-hand that A300s were operating at least up to two weeks before the shutdown.

EAL shut down on January 19, 1991. My wife and I flew on EAL round-trip from LAX via ATL to San Juan, Puerto Rico, out on December 28-29, 1990, and back on January 5, 1991. Service was on A300 both ways between LAX and ATL, and L-1011 between ATL and SJU.

While the A300 remained in the fleet, it appears to me that the L1011 was on the way out.

I have Official Airline Guides from both January 1991 and February 1991. The January edition shows only two routes flown by the L1011....Atlanta to San Juan and Miami to Los Angeles. The February edition shows one L1011 flight.....Atlanta to San Juan.

Eastern was operating L1011s for troop movements based out of Rome. From your photo, it appears as though you may have been on one of them...
Notice the absence of the American flag on the number two engine.

There are a couple of interesting things I have noticed about the February Official Airline Guide in regard to Eastern. Had the company survived there would have been new service to San Antonio, TX from Atlanta and the only destinations left nonstop from Miami were Atlanta, Laguardia, Los Angeles, Toronto, Washington and San Juan.

They had already sold the MIA hub to AA if memory serves.

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

questions wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Correct. In 1985 EA was the largest airline in the western world. By the time of the strike in 1989 it was seventh in US.

That’s incredible!

Perhaps it was just a bad ending but Eastern doesn’t seem to have a positive reputation. Was EA ever considered to be a well run airline? How did its inflight service compare to competitors?

Eastern always had a reputation for mediocre service it seems going back into the 1970's. That doesn't mask the fact they were huge by the standard of that period (like AA now that has a mediocre service reputation but is huge), a time with far more regional airlines and few national carriers. Only UA and to a lesser extent TW and AA had national networks. No airline had the frequency of flight north to south east of Mississippi that EA had. Not even close, and in a time with more regionalization in general in American life that made them massive because it was tough to avoid them if you flew up and down the east coast. Eventually DL got there as a competitor but for years Eastern was almost unavoidable if you lived in Northeast, Carolina's or Florida. Delta was always an option in Atlanta, but Eastern was until about 1985 or 1986 actually bigger at ATL than DL. Eastern actually had quite a large operation at CLT until the mid 1980's, were larger in PHL than US/AL until about 1986 or 1987, largest airline at LGA, DCA, MIA, MCO and TPA for most of the 1970's and 1980's and a strong number two at FLL, EWR and BOS. Also EA was quite big at ORD off and on and had a decent sized IAH operation for a while. MCI was a new hub formed in 1983 that by 1988 was gone. It seems had EA and TW ever merged their route systems were complimentary and that airline would have been a behemoth domestically and internationally. Alas are both gone today, and AA basically had what the combined route map would have looked like before the US merger and the JFK pulldown and abandonment of other non-hub flying.

Eastern and TWA would of been nearly ideal merger partners... as you said complimentary route networks with very little overlap (there was some out of JFK), complimentary fleets (both had DC-9, 727, L1011. TWA had 767s which fit with EAs 757s, only the EA A300s and DC-10s vs TWAs 747s were different... and the DC-10s probably would of been disposed of easily enough had they merged).

EA was bigger at PHL nearly until they sold the entire thing to Midway (Mk1); Gates, DC-9-30s, people, ground equipment... everything. The current AA PMUS fortress at PHL is largely thanks to that failure of Midway in PHL and subsequent sale of the hub to US. It can also be argued it led to the failure of Midway itself.

MCI was an interesting attempt at moving EA out of being a primarily East Coast North-South airline, and a way of using otherwise surplus 727-100s to push into new markets... MCI was on paper a perfect choice for a mid-country hub (it IS halfway almost), no other major hubs at the time, long runways, theoretically high capacity, and express feed from Air Midwest... and after TWA started to consolidate more at STL and leave MCI more there was more apparent demand. The problem was once EA tried to really connect passengers there the problems with the terminal design started to bite them and it never really worked out. The fact that Braniff Mk2 and Midway Mk1 both tried to make hubs in MCI after EA pulled out shows that the idea was popular at least.

There was also the IAH hub for many years where they also had an express feed from Metro Airlines in the early 80s though that died when the parent of Metro went bankrupt and broke up the airline into 3 pieces (Eastern Metro Express from Atlanta, Eastern Island Express out of SJU- later sold to SunAire Associates, and Metro 2 Airlines out of DFW, became part of American Eagle). Later Eastern tried to beef IAH up again with the super-low fare overnight Moonlight Special service (A300s mostly, no checked bags allowed as the belly space was sold to cargo airline CF)... but that never really pulled in much extra revenue. IAH went south after the Texas International/Continental shotgun wedding, Eastern lost ground quickly when that happened despite trying things like the Moonlight Special and Weekbreaker fares. Of course once Lorenzo took over EA IAH was quickly removed from competitive status...

EA was big in MSY up until the strike, including international nonstops to CUN, MEX, and PTY, plus the usual MIA, ATL, DCA, IAH, JFK, LGA, etc. By the time the airline stopped ops it was just 7 or so ATL flights on D9S/72S.

I had my 8th birthday party on a EA 72S parked at one of the C gates at MSY in 1987. Still not sure how the parental units pulled that one off.

enilria wrote:

They had already sold the MIA hub to AA if memory serves.

EA didn't sell the MIA hub to AA; they just sold them the South American route system that they served from there, previously owned by BN and operated from DFW. EA moved it to MIA when they took it over in 1982.

northstardc4m wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

questions wrote:

There was also the IAH hub for many years where they also had an express feed from Metro Airlines in the early 80s though that died when the parent of Metro went bankrupt and broke up the airline into 3 pieces (Eastern Metro Express from Atlanta, Eastern Island Express out of SJU- later sold to SunAire Associates, and Metro 2 Airlines out of DFW, became part of American Eagle). Later Eastern tried to beef IAH up again with the super-low fare overnight Moonlight Special service (A300s mostly, no checked bags allowed as the belly space was sold to cargo airline CF)... but that never really pulled in much extra revenue. IAH went south after the Texas International/Continental shotgun wedding, Eastern lost ground quickly when that happened despite trying things like the Moonlight Special and Weekbreaker fares. Of course once Lorenzo took over EA IAH was quickly removed from competitive status...

IAH was a seemingly useful smallish east/west hub for many years connecting Florida and the Southeast with the west. Similar to the NA/PA effort which wound up around 1983 or so. CO was bankrupt at the time and PA retreating to JFK and MIA so EA exploited an opening in that period.

Midnight special was transferred to ORD by Lorenzo/Texas Air to avoid CO competition and that was a disaster.

gr8slvrflt wrote:

There were actually a few (I think it was five) all-coach 727-200s delivered new from Boeing; they were not the same as the Shuttle aircraft and seated 177.

Why would EA order all coach 727s unless they were going to be used for the Shuttle?

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Midnight special was transferred to ORD by Lorenzo/Texas Air to avoid CO competition and that was a disaster.

Eastern called it the Moonlight Special.

afcjets wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Midnight special was transferred to ORD by Lorenzo/Texas Air to avoid CO competition and that was a disaster.

Eastern called it the Moonlight Special.

YES! Freudian slip by me. Of course...thinking of the song in the ads which was to the tune of the "Midnight Special."

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

September11 wrote:

quickmover wrote:

So I see that TWA took several of the dc9-50s. Does anyone know if they were for expansion or were they replacing other aircraft?

TWA were trying to build Atlanta into a hub... Can you imagine that?

Yes TWA had flights from 1992 to maybe about 1995 up and down the east coast with 3 or 4 banks. Started out just with MCO, FLL, TPA, DTW, LGA, DCA, and BOS in addition to JFK and STL hubs but grew it to about 50-60 flights a day eventually adding MIA, MSY, MDW, PHL, CMH and other points IIRC.

TW also flew ATL-CLT in 1992. I thought the ATL hub didn’t even last a year, maybe longer. By 1995, ATL was already a hub for Valujet.

September11 wrote:

I think Eastern's 72Ss from PSA were all coach seats. Those aircraft were used on DC-NY-Boston shuttle routes. In October of 1989, I flew from ATL to MCO on one of ex-PSA 72S.

I thought Piedmont got all their 727-200s.

Psa 722s ended up with EA PA National (the early 80s charter op) and a few others along with Piedmont

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

afcjets wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

September11 wrote:

TWA were trying to build Atlanta into a hub... Can you imagine that?

Yes TWA had flights from 1992 to maybe about 1995 up and down the east coast with 3 or 4 banks. Started out just with MCO, FLL, TPA, DTW, LGA, DCA, and BOS in addition to JFK and STL hubs but grew it to about 50-60 flights a day eventually adding MIA, MSY, MDW, PHL, CMH and other points IIRC.

TW also flew ATL-CLT in 1992. I thought the ATL hub didn’t even last a year, maybe longer. By 1995, ATL was already a hub for Valujet.

IIRC hub was still there in early 1995 but gone by the time I flew ValuJet through Atlanta from FLL in the summer of that year. So must have been pulled down at the end of the winter of 94-95.

questions wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Correct. In 1985 EA was the largest airline in the western world. By the time of the strike in 1989 it was seventh in US.

The standard measurement of airline size is revenue passenger miles, and Eastern was not even close to being the largest by this measure. In 1985, Eastern's RPMs were 33,087 billion, far less than American's 44,138 billion and United's 41,640 billion.

I believe Eastern only carried the most passengers of any airline in the early 1980s and doubt they flew more passengers than either United or American in 1985 as both those airlines had expanded dramatically under deregulation. If someone has 1985 stats showing passengers carried indicating otherwise I'd love to see them.

I know 1985 was when UA claimed to serve all 50 states - they were adding a lot at that time.

EA CO AS wrote:

enilria wrote:

They had already sold the MIA hub to AA if memory serves.

EA didn't sell the MIA hub to AA; they just sold them the South American route system that they served from there, previously owned by BN and operated from DFW. EA moved it to MIA when they took it over in 1982.

Braniff's South American routes were always operated from MIA, with a few routes from LAX and JFK, not DFW.

Braniff's Spring, 1977 timetable shows no flights from Dallas to anywhere in Latin America except MEX and ACA.

After deregulation, Braniff did have a direct flight from Dallas to South America, via MEX, but it was dropped before they shut down.

n2dru wrote:

Eastern operated from all of Concourse C and half of B. Delta had all of A and the other half of B. D concourse was built so narrow because the remaining airlines were mainly O&D and didn't need the width A, B, and C needed for connecting passengers. Eastern even had a shortcut built between B north and C to facilitate connections. Its no longer in use but was a easy way to get between the 2 without walking all the way to the midpoint to catch the train.

When the current terminal at ATL was being designed in the mid 1970s, the original plan was for EA to have only the north half of Concourse C, with Southern in the south half. United (who had a small hub at ATL left over from Capital) and Piedmont would have been the main airlines in Concourse D, along with Northwest, Braniff, TWA, and National.

After deregulation, United decided not to be a weak #3 at ATL, and suspended all flights there. Southern took over the gates in D that would have gone to United, and Eastern took over the gates in C that would have gone to Southern.

TWA and National also suspended service at ATL post deregulation. National's only route from ATL was to SFO, which they were awarded in 1969. The route (arguably the most non sensical route decision ever by the CAB) was down to just a 1x week night coach flight in 1978.

I think Eastern had a similar reputation to Northwest when it came to service which is to say below average


US Air being the very worst, all other majors except Delta in that era were average at best

northstardc4m wrote:

F9Animal wrote:

If Iraq and the Kuwait saga had not happened, do you think EA would have survived? It sounds like things were really turning around before that mess!

Long term I don't think so at least by itself... it could of turned around long enough to be a solid merger partner though. There was just too much debt, even if the Gulf War hadn't happened something would of.

I think the Gulf War only hastened the inevitable, because the economy was already in a recession before the Gulf War broke out. 1991-1993 would have been terrible years for the airline industry even without the war, because demand for air travel was so weak due to the economy. The recession hit the northeast harder than other parts of the country, due to the collapse of Drexel Burnham Lambert and a sharp decline in the stock market, so Eastern would have been especially vulnerable.

Does anyone know if Eastern had a crew base in Miami up until the very end?

WA707atMSP wrote:

n2dru wrote:

Eastern operated from all of Concourse C and half of B. Delta had all of A and the other half of B. D concourse was built so narrow because the remaining airlines were mainly O&D and didn't need the width A, B, and C needed for connecting passengers. Eastern even had a shortcut built between B north and C to facilitate connections. Its no longer in use but was a easy way to get between the 2 without walking all the way to the midpoint to catch the train.

When the current terminal at ATL was being designed in the mid 1970s, the original plan was for EA to have only the north half of Concourse C, with Southern in the south half. United (who had a small hub at ATL left over from Capital) and Piedmont would have been the main airlines in Concourse D, along with Northwest, Braniff, TWA, and National.

After deregulation, United decided not to be a weak #3 at ATL, and suspended all flights there. Southern took over the gates in D that would have gone to United, and Eastern took over the gates in C that would have gone to Southern.

TWA and National also suspended service at ATL post deregulation. National's only route from ATL was to SFO, which they were awarded in 1969. The route (arguably the most non sensical route decision ever by the CAB) was down to just a 1x week night coach flight in 1978.

ATL was so far ahead of its time when it the present Terminal complex opened in 1980.
.

PlanesNTrains wrote:

I know 1985 was when UA claimed to serve all 50 states - they were adding a lot at that time.

Yes, I remember that too. UA was the largest but EA carried the most pax.

n2dru wrote:

Eastern operated from all of Concourse C and half of B. Delta had all of A and the other half of B. D concourse was built so narrow because the remaining airlines were mainly O&D and didn't need the width A, B, and C needed for connecting passengers. Eastern even had a shortcut built between B north and C to facilitate connections. Its no longer in use but was a easy way to get between the 2 without walking all the way to the midpoint to catch the train.

Never understood why DL did not follow EA's example and built a connector for their side of B.

northstardc4m wrote:

September11 wrote:

September11 wrote:

Especially Eastern's DC-9-51s acquired from Muse Air in 1987 (N###MC). All blue leather seats, no rear galley.

Eastern had few DC-9-32s from Texas International (N###TX). Cabin layout on DC-9-31s and DC-9-32s weren't aligned.

Fresh paint, new first class (except on wide bodies - they were going to use 757 to replace all A-300 and L-1011), doubled first class seats, revamped inflight services, additional flight attendant on all flights, new uniforms for all personnel...

I believe Eastern intended to park all L-1011s and A-300s in 1991 and use 757s from ATL to: LAX, SFO, SEA/PDX... MIA-LAX route was discontinued weeks before shutdown.

Good effort of Shugrue and Eastern in the end!

N###MC DC-9-51s were actually acquired from TranStar

On side note, Shugrue's long-term plan was to procure 737s to replace all 727s and DC-9s before 2000.

If you want to get really technical they were "acquired" from Continental who gave (well i think it was $1 a month or something for 12 months each) Southwest leases on 3x 737-200s (ex-Frontier) for them in part and traded earlier order slots on 737-300s, along with cash, when they shut down TranStar which was the post WN takeover name for Muse Air. CO also bought the remaining MC MD80 fleet. WN ended up only keeping those 732s about a year. Part of a deal in which CO got A300s in return from EA (EA fins 209-213, 215, 217) for the DC-9-51s and a few DC-9-30s.

Also Shugrue's 737 plan was one of 3 options the board was given information on, another was to take over part of the PA/BN A320 order (HP got it instead), and yet another was to order/lease F100s to replace the DC-9s/727-100s, and more 757s for the 727-200s. The 737-300 was his chosen favorite but it never was actually decided on or any money spent anywhere on it. Lorenzo was also to route an order for 20 737-300s to EA right around the time of the 89 shutdown, of course that order never happened... CO ended up with them.

Eastern also had 8 ex-Allegheny (401-408) and 4 ex-Hawaiian (418-421) DC-9-51s... all had slightly different equipment fits though the seating layouts did match more or less. There is also the entire mixed bag of EA 727-200 configs...

Airbus gave EA an awesome deal to get the A300 into a US carrier's operations. Were all of the A300s that EA owned under the sweet heart deal, or just the first few?

The 737 plan looked viable. At the time the 757 was suppose to be the 727 replacement. It's because of Eastern who wanted it stretched that it was not a 150 pax plane.

WA707atMSP wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

enilria wrote:

They had already sold the MIA hub to AA if memory serves.

EA didn't sell the MIA hub to AA; they just sold them the South American route system that they served from there, previously owned by BN and operated from DFW. EA moved it to MIA when they took it over in 1982.

Braniff's South American routes were always operated from MIA, with a few routes from LAX and JFK, not DFW.

Braniff's Spring, 1977 timetable shows no flights from Dallas to anywhere in Latin America except MEX and ACA.

After deregulation, Braniff did have a direct flight from Dallas to South America, via MEX, but it was dropped before they shut down.

Right BN had its own route system from MIA enhanced by the PANAGRA purchase which gave them an additional western route from MIA. They had LAX service also to one or two west coast South American cities.

I agree with the post above about the nonsensical nature of NA's ATL-SFO award. Made no sense and also boxed EA in further. Most Florida-California routes were exclusive to NA also IIRC. Delta had applied for MIA-LAX and maybe did get awarded MIA-SFO but EA had nothing. When NA and PA merged, NA also flew TPA-LAX and FLL-LAX. Both disappeared pretty quickly with PA. Transcontinental routes, or the lack of them really was one of the things that killed EA long-term. That's why again a TW merger would have been very lucrative. Not just marrying a LatAm int'l network with a European one, but a strong north-south carrier with a traditionally strong east-west one.

william wrote:

Airbus gave EA an awesome deal to get the A300 into a US carrier's operations. Were all of the A300s that EA owned under the sweet heart deal, or just the first few?

The 737 plan looked viable. At the time the 757 was suppose to be the 727 replacement. It's because of Eastern who wanted it stretched that it was not a 150 pax plane.

The "sweethart deal" was a 36 month lease on the first 4 A300B4-103s (201-204) for basically the taxes and import fees, and a slight "discount" purchase on them at the end of the lease and 4 others (205-208). Every other one after that was at a "normal" rate, including 291/292, the Shuttle B2K-203s originally built for Iran Air and never delivered because of the 1979 revolution.

Airbus actually got in trouble for the "discount" on the first 8 sale and ended up having to adjust the payments... and even then it's still listed in the list of complaints by the US Dept of Commerce against Airbus at the WTO.

Also the financing on the first 8 forbade them being used outside the US and Canada, which caused some issues in scheduling, they originally weren't allowed to fly to the Bahamas for example.

Cody wrote:

Does anyone know if Eastern had a crew base in Miami up until the very end?

If, by the end, you mean March 4, 1989, yes. If you mean the CO rump operation run by Lorenzo to fool the bankruptcy court, can’t say.

GF

northstardc4m wrote:

Eastern only had 3 DC-10s for a short period in 1986. N390EA was sold to Continental (for a realistic price in cash no less) when EA abandoned plans for MIA-MAD and MIA-AMS, CO was desperate for DC-10-30s at the time to increase frequencies in the Pacific. Through Summer 87 the two other DC-10s flew the daily MIA-LGW-MIA rotation only. In late 87 LGW was dropped to 6x weekly and the DC-10s began routing weekly MIA-LGW-MIA-LGW-MIA-LGW-MIA-ATL-LAX-LIM-SCL-LIM-LAX-ATL-MIA 3 or 4 days separated. Eventually LGW was dropped slowly to 5x then 3x, and DC-10s were sent on MIA-GIG-GRU-MIA and MIA-LIM-SCL-EZE and various permutations of those routings into 1989. In 90 the timetables got shuffled around alot (DC-10s showed up at JFK and ORD at times) until September when both 391 and 392 were "sold" to Continental who started flying MIA-LGW instead of EA, and the ElInter-Americano network was sold to AA. One DC-10 flew during the entire strike, 392. 391 was stuck on the ground for most of it due to an engine issue and a court injunction granted the IAM to prevent CO from doing the work, though it did get a bit of a makeover as a result including the "blue nose" update.

I believe there is something off on your report above regarding the Latin routes flown by EAL's DC-10s 1986-1990

* AFAIK, GRU was never served by Eastern and GIG was only served beginning in 1989, route being MIA-GIG-EZE, a few months before selling the Latin routes to AA.

* I don't recall the DC-10s making it to LIM, I believe 727s and L-1011s went to LIM; SCL was mainly served via EZE, route was MIA-EZE-SCL. MIA-based crews took the flight down to EZE and EZE-based crews carried on to SCL and back to EZE.

* When for any particular reason one of the 2 DC-10s (ex AZ machines) was not available, EA would sub an L-1011 on the EZE route, but since they lacked the range to make it nonstop, a tech stop would be made at LIM en route.

* During the day time hours and in between flights from/to MIA to EZE/SCL, the DC-10s would make the non stop run to LAX & back to MIA. I don't recall there being a stop en route at ATL with the DC-10s. Pan Am did the same, but with their 747s.

n2dru wrote:

September11 wrote:

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

Eastern still had about 280-300 mainline flights at the time of the strike in 1989. A real strong number 2 to Delta. Had been No. 1 in Atlanta till about 1985.

Not only Eastern was #1 in Atlanta but Eastern carried the most passengers worldwide in 1985. Now that's a serious downfall. The public was shocked to see Eastern fold that way in few years.

Agreed. People seem to forget Eastern was larger at ATL then Delta was. Only towards the shutdown and after did Delta grow to the size they are. ATL had been a 2 carrier hub since the early 1960's.

I have a book that shows departures and passenger counts for ATL and it shows that EA was at no time larger than DL during the 1980s. Simply looking at the terminal footprint that DL occupied and the number of widebodies would confirm that DL was the larger carrier throughout the 80s, especially during the late 80s when EA started to retrench domestically.

Jeremy

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

EA didn't sell the MIA hub to AA; they just sold them the South American route system that they served from there, previously owned by BN and operated from DFW. EA moved it to MIA when they took it over in 1982.

Braniff's South American routes were always operated from MIA, with a few routes from LAX and JFK, not DFW.

Braniff's Spring, 1977 timetable shows no flights from Dallas to anywhere in Latin America except MEX and ACA.

After deregulation, Braniff did have a direct flight from Dallas to South America, via MEX, but it was dropped before they shut down.

Right BN had its own route system from MIA enhanced by the PANAGRA purchase which gave them an additional western route from MIA. They had LAX service also to one or two west coast South American cities.

Sorry, you're both correct - brain fart on my part! But again, those routes AA has came from EA, and originally, BN.

Anybody remember when Eastern broke that dc-9 in half after crash landing in Pensacola? When was that in 87 I think? I was 4 years old at the time and remember the nonstop news coverage.

I wonder if that event also contributed to the end of Eastern.

stranger706 wrote:

Anybody remember when Eastern broke that dc-9 in half after crash landing in Pensacola? When was that in 87 I think? I was 4 years old at the time and remember the nonstop news coverage.

I wonder if that event also contributed to the end of Eastern.

No not in any significant, Eastern's issues were far deeper than a hard landing... Labor strife, poor morale, corporate raiding, lack of investment... all that and more... on top of a turbulent economy through the 80s and the massive uptick in competition due to deregulation.

EA CO AS wrote:

enilria wrote:

They had already sold the MIA hub to AA if memory serves.

EA didn't sell the MIA hub to AA; they just sold them the South American route system that they served from there, previously owned by BN and operated from DFW. EA moved it to MIA when they took it over in 1982.

De facto they sold it to them because that is where the route authorities were 90% operated from, plus without the Southern network the non-hub North America feed routes obviously followed making the hub essentially sold.

Eastern carried the most pax 1980-1984. United passed them in 1985

Of course, this was only in the FREE world

I believe the pax counts in 1985 were:

1. Aeroflot
2. United
3. Eastern
4. Delta
5. American



...and yes, Eastern was #3 in RPMs in 1985

dcajet wrote:

northstardc4m wrote:

Eastern only had 3 DC-10s for a short period in 1986. N390EA was sold to Continental (for a realistic price in cash no less) when EA abandoned plans for MIA-MAD and MIA-AMS, CO was desperate for DC-10-30s at the time to increase frequencies in the Pacific. Through Summer 87 the two other DC-10s flew the daily MIA-LGW-MIA rotation only. In late 87 LGW was dropped to 6x weekly and the DC-10s began routing weekly MIA-LGW-MIA-LGW-MIA-LGW-MIA-ATL-LAX-LIM-SCL-LIM-LAX-ATL-MIA 3 or 4 days separated. Eventually LGW was dropped slowly to 5x then 3x, and DC-10s were sent on MIA-GIG-GRU-MIA and MIA-LIM-SCL-EZE and various permutations of those routings into 1989. In 90 the timetables got shuffled around alot (DC-10s showed up at JFK and ORD at times) until September when both 391 and 392 were "sold" to Continental who started flying MIA-LGW instead of EA, and the ElInter-Americano network was sold to AA. One DC-10 flew during the entire strike, 392. 391 was stuck on the ground for most of it due to an engine issue and a court injunction granted the IAM to prevent CO from doing the work, though it did get a bit of a makeover as a result including the "blue nose" update.

I believe there is something off on your report above regarding the Latin routes flown by EAL's DC-10s 1986-1990

* AFAIK, GRU was never served by Eastern and GIG was only served beginning in 1989, route being MIA-GIG-EZE, a few months before selling the Latin routes to AA.

* I don't recall the DC-10s making it to LIM, I believe 727s and L-1011s went to LIM; SCL was mainly served via EZE, route was MIA-EZE-SCL. MIA-based crews took the flight down to EZE and EZE-based crews carried on to SCL and back to EZE.

* When for any particular reason one of the 2 DC-10s (ex AZ machines) was not available, EA would sub an L-1011 on the EZE route, but since they lacked the range to make it nonstop, a tech stop would be made at LIM en route.

* During the day time hours and in between flights from/to MIA to EZE/SCL, the DC-10s would make the non stop run to LAX & back to MIA. I don't recall there being a stop en route at ATL with the DC-10s. Pan Am did the same, but with their 747s.

All entirely possible... I can only go by EA's timetables and OAGs... they often do not agree and EA's timetables are rather poor at listing equipment types (as in they don't officially, only Widebody/Narrowbody, but only the DC-10s had 3 class F/J/Y as far as i know so that is what I've been going from). I do know for sure that MIA-ATL-LAX was flown with DC-10s at for some time 86/87. But beyond that:

L1011s and 727-200s commonly served EZE, even during the period I seem to have a DC-10 scheduled in it shows an L10 2x weekly on a similar routing: MIA-BOG-LIM-SCL-EZE return and a 72S 1x on MIA-PTY-UIO-LIM-SCL-EZE return. Looking through it all though LIM SEEMS to be served at least in 1988 with DC-10s. HOWEVER EA was very good at swapping planes, changing their mind on schedules and being rather annoying with not updating printed timetables or the OAG so if the published info I have is wrong, it's wrong, I don't have first hand info to know for sure I will be the first to admit.

GRU is shown but may of been a codeshare tag, EA's timetable is again unclear, just shows GRU as a 1 stop with the same flight number from MIA, and doesn't show that flight with a GIG-GRU segment from GIG obviously. I don't have an OAG that would show it to confirm.

northstardc4m wrote:

The fact that Braniff Mk2 and Midway Mk1 both tried to make hubs in MCI after EA pulled out shows that the idea was popular at least.

Not to take this off topic, but neither the original Midway nor the second Midway ever had a hub of any sort in Kansas City.

northstardc4m wrote:

The fact that Braniff Mk2 and Midway Mk1 both tried to make hubs in MCI after EA pulled out shows that the idea was popular at least.

Not to take this off topic, but neither the original Midway nor the second Midway ever had a hub of any sort in Kansas City.

Did most of EA L1011's fleet wind up with DL? I seem to remember alot wound up flying with DL but the grey matter between ears is not as it once was.

I was shocked by how much they cut from MIA as it was always one of their most important stations.

Did most of EA L1011's fleet wind up with DL? I seem to remember alot wound up flying with DL but the grey matter between ears is not as it once was.

I was shocked by how much they cut from MIA as it was always one of their most important stations.

georgiabill wrote:

Did most of EA L1011's fleet wind up with DL? I seem to remember alot wound up flying with DL but the grey matter between ears is not as it once was.

I was shocked by how much they cut from MIA as it was always one of their most important stations.

The L10s went to several airlines including Delta, Cathay, LTU, Worldways, Faucett...

10 went to Delta if i recall...

In the early 90s (91 & 92) I used to work at the Hyatt LAX while in college. I remember these Venezuelan folks from either Aeropostal or Avensa that used to come with frequency to check and eventually acquire some of the DC-9-50s that Eastern had parked at the desert following its closure. A whole different Venezuela altogether.

northstardc4m wrote:

All entirely possible... I can only go by EA's timetables and OAGs... they often do not agree and EA's timetables are rather poor at listing equipment types (as in they don't officially, only Widebody/Narrowbody, but only the DC-10s had 3 class F/J/Y as far as i know so that is what I've been going from). I do know for sure that MIA-ATL-LAX was flown with DC-10s at for some time 86/87. But beyond that:

L1011s and 727-200s commonly served EZE, even during the period I seem to have a DC-10 scheduled in it shows an L10 2x weekly on a similar routing: MIA-BOG-LIM-SCL-EZE return and a 72S 1x on MIA-PTY-UIO-LIM-SCL-EZE return. Looking through it all though LIM SEEMS to be served at least in 1988 with DC-10s. HOWEVER EA was very good at swapping planes, changing their mind on schedules and being rather annoying with not updating printed timetables or the OAG so if the published info I have is wrong, it's wrong, I don't have first hand info to know for sure I will be the first to admit.

GRU is shown but may of been a codeshare tag, EA's timetable is again unclear, just shows GRU as a 1 stop with the same flight number from MIA, and doesn't show that flight with a GIG-GRU segment from GIG obviously. I don't have an OAG that would show it to confirm.

I am working off memories here, and some of them may be fuzzy after 30+ years!

After selling one of the 3 DC-10s to CO, EA was only left with two, and to the best of my recollections, they only flew LAX-MIA-EZE-SCL-EZE-MIA-LAX, Two frames allow for daily service but that was it. I believe the non stops to EZE started in 86, as the multistop L-1011 service to MIA via SCL, LIM & BOG was not competitive with the nonstops on AR & PA. I also am not sure if EZE ever saw a 727 (those were deployed on the MIA-PTY-GYE-LIM-LPB-ASU run, where they lost one aircraft on 1-1-85) but then, I may be forgetting!

Well i definitely show EA 989: MIA-PTY-UIO-LIM-SCL-EZE and EA992: EZE-SCL-LIM-UIO-PTY-MIA in 1988 with narrowbody F/Y 1x weekly. How long it operated for I don't know... I just noticed however it also does not show the flight leaving EZE under 992 (only EA10 is shown 4x, all widebody, 2 with 3 class 2 with 2, so again im guessing L10 and D13 2x each), but does show it SCL on and it's also the only narrowbody from SCL. Maybe SCL-EZE-SCL isn't an EA sector for the 72S flight, or an error.