And it begins...not surprising given that some of the routes were ridiculous to begin with, and most recently some flights have been consolidated via other cities.

This airline is running on fumes. Buyer beware..

Flair Airlines suspending flights to Florida, Palm Springs: ‘Expect the unexpected
https://globalnews.ca/news/4980120/flai ... m-springs/

Well that was quick.

Canada-U.S. seems like a *very* challenging market for anyone other than AC/UA and DL/WS. Even AA seems to struggle - routes like LAX-YYZ, ORD-YOW and PHX-YYC spring to mind. It will be interesting to see how their new services to YHZ and YQB pan out.

I'm certain that AA will bring back PHX-YYC, if they can do it in YEG, they can do better and add mainline AA to the PHX-YYC route. AA offers way more US destinations out of PHX compared to WS and AC out of YYC. For example, AA can transfer some snowbirds onto their flight from PHX-TUS from PHX-YYC which WS or AC can't do.

SurfandSnow wrote:

Canada-U.S. seems like a *very* challenging market for anyone other than AC/UA and DL/WS. Even AA seems to struggle - routes like LAX-YYZ, ORD-YOW and PHX-YYC spring to mind. It will be interesting to see how their new services to YHZ and YQB pan out.

AA's market in, at least Western Canada, can be attributed to the HP/US/AA merger. Back in the 2000s, AA only operated DFW-YYC and LAX/DFW-YVR. HP meanwhile was operating YEG/YYC/YVR-LAX/LAS-PHX and, depending on the economy, were multiple departures a day.

I never understood Flair's Florida thinking. The only thing that made the slightest sense was the MIA flights timed for the cruise lines. And clearly that didn't matter too much. Much like you can make $$ flying anything in Canada during the summer, it is pretty hard to lose money to PSP from YEG and YWG in the dead of winter. I guess those insanely expensive ACMI-leased 738s came back to bite them.

You would think though they would have done this BEFORE their rebrand? Now it just looks like the same terribly run airline that was before. I'd personally be surprised if we actually saw their new livery every fly in Canada.

SurfandSnow wrote:

It will be interesting to see how their new services to YHZ and YQB pan out.

What's new about their service to YHZ? They've done summer service to YHZ before.

Not too sure where anyone heard about YQB? Maybe you're thinking of the pipe dream of an airline Jetlines, which is spending investors money via an IPO much to the tunes of Baltia in the U.S.

Enerjet (and their new commercial name) will come out the winner in this 4-legged race.

Swoop is WS's version of Zip and Tango. A marketing tool to benefit the overall corporation and shareholders profitability. It will most likely cease once the commercial benefit cedes.

Flair is an awkward investment by various groups from BC, MB and an Indian reserve in Minnesota. Every step Flair has made just proves how much they want to make a quick buck but have no comprehension on how to do it.

Jetlines is just a shell stock company that MAY actually see a day they fly, but have no understanding of how to run a profitable airline in Canada. This is like seeing SkyBus unfold, but in Canada, and at much higher airport costs. YHU-YXX is like Columbus to Burbank.

Maybe not the best time for Flair to spend precious dollars on a total re-brand.

CFWAD wrote:

Enerjet (and their new commercial name) will come out the winner in this 4-legged race.

Swoop is WS's version of Zip and Tango. A marketing tool to benefit the overall corporation and shareholders profitability. It will most likely cease once the commercial benefit cedes.

.

If you want to make that comparison... Swoop is the WS answer to Rouge and Flair
Rouge was initially ACs answer to TS, now evolved into more of a "Vacation and Low Cost" division to counter Flair, Swoop etc
Zip was intended to compete with early WS (low cost domestic primarily Western)
Tango was aimed at the same market initially as Canada 3000 (lower cost sun n fun, YYZ/YUL based domestic)

northstardc4m wrote:

CFWAD wrote:

Enerjet (and their new commercial name) will come out the winner in this 4-legged race.

Swoop is WS's version of Zip and Tango. A marketing tool to benefit the overall corporation and shareholders profitability. It will most likely cease once the commercial benefit cedes.

.

If you want to make that comparison... Swoop is the WS answer to Rouge and Flair
Rouge was initially ACs answer to TS, now evolved into more of a "Vacation and Low Cost" division to counter Flair, Swoop etc
Zip was intended to compete with early WS (low cost domestic primarily Western)
Tango was aimed at the same market initially as Canada 3000 (lower cost sun n fun, YYZ/YUL based domestic)

Swoop is not the answer to Rouge. Swoop is an answer to Flair.
Rouge was not an answer to TS (who have been around for decades). They were an answer to WS Vacations (taken away by the loss of the TS contract) and by Sunwing.
Zip is exactly what Swoop is today. To compete with a low cost carrier. Zip did it different and operated unionized ex-CP pilots to fly the 732s until they retired. At one point AC was going to move a a majority of A319s to the Zip model, but Calin and Ben realized it was cheaper to model this in an aircraft cabin vs websites and a/c liveries.

Tango was actually the first version of North America's tiered fares, albeit marketed on completely separate aircraft.

smallmj wrote:

SurfandSnow wrote:

It will be interesting to see how their new services to YHZ and YQB pan out.

What's new about their service to YHZ? They've done summer service to YHZ before.

SurfandSnow was referring to AA's recent route announcements at YQB and YHZ.

As for Flair's transborder routes, it was always a head scratchier as to why some of them were launched with so much frequency, instead of a very conservative weekly (i.e. mostly on Saturdays). Good that they're cutting their losses early à la Frontier.

Strategically, Zip was miles apart from what Swoop is currently doing.

Just about the only thing they have/had in common is they both operate(d) aircraft.

Chalk and cheese.

But then again, there are those out there who still believe even at the beginning that WS followed the "Southwest" model. Strategically, there were some pretty significant differences between the two.

The term "Southwest model" was a generic description a layman could wrap his/her head around, and was widely used by the media and pundits, but anyone with a deeper understanding of the industry understood the fundamental differences between the two m/o's in 1996.

Had WS slavishly copied the Southwest model and strategy, it would not have survived more than about 6 months.

It would appear Flair has cancelled all US flying about a month earlier than planned. As is always the case, airlines don’t cancel profitable routes.

Then again, anyone with any understanding of the Canadian aviation market knows precisely why Flair badly pooped their drawers once again.

jimbo737 wrote:

It would appear Flair has cancelled all US flying about a month earlier than planned. As is always the case, airlines don’t cancel profitable routes.

Then again, anyone with any understanding of the Canadian aviation market knows precisely why Flair badly pooped their drawers once again.

Why's it so hard for airlines to get Canada right? Edited to give some context... It also came up in the Canada Jetlines thread, which is why I am asking.

hz747300 wrote:

Why's it so hard for airlines to get Canada right?

Because transborder taxes can be insanely high, relative to the distances traveled.

Thus you have high total-fares (arguably) suppressing the market, but the airlines aren't deriving high yields from them.... which is a big reason why powerful LoCo carriers like WN and B6 avoid Canada like the plague.

LAX772LR wrote:

hz747300 wrote:

Why's it so hard for airlines to get Canada right?

Because transborder taxes can be insanely high, relative to the distances traveled.

Thus you have high total-fares (arguably) suppressing the market, but the airlines aren't deriving high yields from them.... which is a big reason why powerful LoCo carriers like WN and B6 avoid Canada like the plague.

Don't forget high Airport Improvement Fees. Hard to make money on $99 fares when $30 goes to the airport (along with a bunch of other fees.)

smallmj wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

hz747300 wrote:

Why's it so hard for airlines to get Canada right?

Because transborder taxes can be insanely high, relative to the distances traveled.

Thus you have high total-fares (arguably) suppressing the market, but the airlines aren't deriving high yields from them.... which is a big reason why powerful LoCo carriers like WN and B6 avoid Canada like the plague.

Don't forget high Airport Improvement Fees. Hard to make money on $99 fares when $30 goes to the airport (along with a bunch of other fees.)

Both make sense--I suppose for WN it would only make sense on a busy route, like LGA-YYZ where they could grab some business fares. I suppose the airport improvement fee also applies to domestic fares keeping the profitability from that down a bit too. Thanks both!

I believe the reputation for Canada to have high fees is somewhat undeserved, On a round trip, the vast majority come from the US side.
I booked this trip YYZ-SEA (one way) a week ago for May travel..
Toronto is allegedly the high price destination, but the Airport Improvement fee was $25 CDN (under $20 US) certainly not $30 and if you do the math, the fees are about equal between what the US and Canada charge. On the SEA-YYZ leg, there were zero (0) Canadian fees.
Air Transportation Charges
Base Fare: C$358.00 CAD
Taxes, Fees and Charges
Per passenger summary of air travel taxes, fees, and related charges. Per passenger total travel charges provided at end of table
description amount currency
United States - September 11th Security Fee(Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee) (AY) C$7.50 CAD
Canada - Air Travellers Security Charge (CA) C$12.10 CAD
Canada - Harmonized Sales Tax (RC) C$3.25 CAD
Canada - Airport Improvement Fee (AIF) (SQ) C$25.00 CAD
United States - Transportation Tax (US) C$24.80 CAD
United States - Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service Fee (APHIS User Fee - Passengers (XA) C$5.30 CAD
Canada - Goods and Services Tax (GST) (XG) C$18.51 CAD
United States - Immigration and Naturalization Fee(Immigration User Fee) (XY) C$9.30 CAD
United States - Custom User Fee (YC) C$7.70 CAD
Summary of all charges for all passengers, including air-fare, taxes, fees, and other charges
description amount currency
Total Price: C$471.46 CAD

admanager wrote:

I believe the reputation for Canada to have high fees is somewhat undeserved, On a round trip, the vast majority come from the US side.

That's what I've been telling people all the time.

It's cheaper for people to travel to US destinations from SEA instead of YVR is purely because they evaded international fees by travel domestic. US actually takes the bigger portion of the fees for international travel for Canadian citizens. For US citizen, some of the US fees can be waived...

Flair is arguing that, due to the Max-8 grounding, their wet-lease partner Smartwings has pulled some clause in the contract requiring their aircraft return back to recover Smartwings lost flying.

Seems somewhat of an odd clause to have, and what does that leave Flair, their aged fleet of -400s? Until they maybe get their used 738 next month. Also, they started pulling back this flying well before the grounding.

This airline has gone from one debacle to another. I am truly surprised 777 Partners invested in them given their previous, and current wingnut operation. Jim Scott has proven he should have stayed being a pilot and not be running an airline. If I were EIA, I would be preparing some "For Lease" signs for those 5 floors in their old office tower.

Where are the Airport Improvement fees that they impose? Or does YYJ not impose them?

Flair was supposed to have received an ex-Air China / ex-Primera 737-800, reg. C-FFLA (MSN 36548) by now. Has anyone seen any signs of it in service?

https://www.airliners.net/search?manufac ... lay=detail

Delivered March 29th WOE-KEF-YYC, hasn't flown since. Assuming it's in pre-revenue checks and training in YYC as it is a new type for them.

My favorite quote from the article.

“I just can’t state that enough: we are very much in the experimental mode.”


They doesn't exactly give off the vibe of flying with confidence

dmanonice wrote:

Delivered March 29th WOE-KEF-YYC, hasn't flown since. Assuming it's in pre-revenue checks and training in YYC as it is a new type for them.

Hm. I would have thought either Edmonton or Kelowna since the airline has presences there.

wrongwayup wrote:

dmanonice wrote:

Delivered March 29th WOE-KEF-YYC, hasn't flown since. Assuming it's in pre-revenue checks and training in YYC as it is a new type for them.

Hm. I would have thought either Edmonton or Kelowna since the airline has presences there.

They have a large presence in YYC as well, saw the aircraft sitting in front of the Esso hanger couple days ago. Was in YLW the day before and saw about 3 or 4 of their 400s sitting around as well. 2 of them covered with MTC flags....