The Boeing 737 from Jakarta skidded off the runway at ontianak, West Kalimantan and has been pictured nose-first in the ground

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-new ... s-14007004

Lion Air, enough said.

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Eh. Aircrafts skids off run way all the time, in the US and elsewhere, operated by US airlines or otherwise.

Yes incidents happen to all airlines including the US3, ME3, EU and other large carriers. The number of aircraft in their fleets combined are well into the thousands. Meanwhile Lion Air with their relatively small fleet seem to have more than their share!

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Maybe ask Southwest.....

slcguy wrote:

Yes incidents happen to all airlines including the US3, ME3, EU and other large carriers. The number of aircraft in their fleets combined are well into the thousands. Meanwhile Lion Air with their relatively small fleet seem to have more than their share!

you can’t make a direct comparisson between Lion Air and the U3, ME3, EU3 etc. Conditions in Indonesia are a lot worse. Airports, ATC, poorer regulatory oversight and weather all play their part in the lousy safety statistics at Lion Air, or perhaps I should say Indonesia in general. But due to Lion Air’s size compared to other Indonesian airlines you just hear more of them then others. Only Garuda seems to be doing quite well, but remember that just a few years ago they too had several incidents.

downdata wrote:

Eh. Aircrafts skids off run way all the time, in the US and elsewhere, operated by US airlines or otherwise.

petertenthije wrote:

you can’t make a direct comparisson between Lion Air and the U3, ME3, EU3 etc. Conditions in Indonesia are a lot worse.

You can't, but that doesn't stop the bandwagon jumpers.

You could also argue that Lion Air are consistent.

I have to say ... crap like this happens all the time in the US too. But no one here is lynching WN the way JT is here. Actually been several years since JT had a hull loss that was actually their fault.

Another one? How many of Lion Air's airplanes have crashed or damaged in a serious way. Must be dozens of them over the years.

when will this safety failure of an airline be shut down already?

9w748capt wrote:

I have to say ... crap like this happens all the time in the US too. But no one here is lynching WN the way JT is here. Actually been several years since JT had a hull loss that was actually their fault.

I know it's an extremely heated debate, and we don't have the root cause yet, but Lion Air Flight 610 is (at least partially) Lion Air's fault (I'd say 50/50 in this case); that was 6 months ago, with the loss of all souls on board.
When was the last time Southwest had a hull loss that was their fault? June 2013, the aircraft was 13 years old, 10 minor injuries.

marcelh wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Maybe ask Southwest.....

If you calculate the number of flights per mishap for Southwest and compare it with Lion there is no comparison. Southwest is one of the safest airlines, period. No airline is perfect because they all rely on humans.

I bet Boeing forgot to mention that the aircraft is equipped with brakes, thrust reverse, and spoilers in the manual. That's how Lion Air will spin this anyway.

downdata wrote:

Eh. Aircrafts skids off run way all the time, in the US and elsewhere, operated by US airlines or otherwise.

Aircraft did not skid off runway, it overran the runway,

marcelh wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Maybe ask Southwest.....

Southwest is insured by USAIG.

TTailedTiger wrote:

I bet Boeing forgot to mention that the aircraft is equipped with brakes, thrust reverse, and spoilers in the manual. That's how Lion Air will spin this anyway.

Great post.

Forget Lion Air. That’s how the trolls on here will spin it.

The only people who defend Lion Air are Americans and Europeans. I have a good friend/co-worker from Indonesia and Lion Air is one of the unsafest airlines in the world, but continues to operate just fine or with a slap on the wrist because of the corruption and their influence on the Indonesian government, even more so than Garuda Indonesia.

What a shameful airline.

SEPilot wrote:

marcelh wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Maybe ask Southwest.....

If you calculate the number of flights per mishap for Southwest and compare it with Lion there is no comparison. Southwest is one of the safest airlines, period. No airline is perfect because they all rely on humans.

I consider Asia (Indonesia) as a more demanding environment to fly compared to the US.

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Fortunately you are not in the credit or insurance industries. Like finance, you price the risk, with margins, deductibles, exclusions and special conditions.

Deductibles are self-insurance. Many airlines assume a high percentage of risk in respect to hull damage / loss as aircraft age, and low for personal liability.

If Southwest flew to Indonesia, AIG would re-price, just as others do for cover into other higher / high risk areas. That's why you often see the same sub-fleet operating into high risk areas.

TTailedTiger wrote:

I bet Boeing forgot to mention that the aircraft is equipped with brakes, thrust reverse, and spoilers in the manual. That's how Lion Air will spin this anyway.

I know Lion airs maintenance reputation, BUT in this instance the US3 have had their share of planes sliding skidding off the run way.

Did Boeing forget to mention that all of that to Delta (737-700)and Southwest 3 (737-700)as well.

Indonesia has lots of runways which aren't up to US / Western standard in construction plus a lot of awful heavy rainy weather.
The two don't mix well...

TC957 wrote:

Indonesia has lots of runways which aren't up to US / Western standard in construction plus a lot of awful heavy rainy weather.
The two don't mix well...

Stir a 737 into that mix and it gets even worse.

downdata wrote:

Eh. Aircrafts skids off run way all the time, in the US and elsewhere, operated by US airlines or otherwise.

Here is the list of Lion Air "incidents", as shown on Wikipedia. You all can make your own judgments about whether the number seems out-of-line or not:

On 14 January 2002, Lion Air Flight 386, a Boeing 737-200 crashed after trying to take-off with an incorrect flap configuration at Sultan Syarif Kasim II International Airport. Everyone on board survived but the aircraft was written off

On 30 November 2004, Lion Air Flight 583, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82, crashed in Surakarta with registration PK-LMN (c/n 49189); 25 people died

On 4 March 2006, Lion Air Flight 8987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82, crashed after landing at Juanda International Airport.[33] Reverse thrust was used during landing, although the left thrust reverser was stated to be out of service. This caused the aircraft to veer to the right and skid off the runway, coming to rest about 7,000 feet (2,100 m) from the approach end of the runway. There were no fatalities, but the aircraft was badly damaged and later written off.

On 24 December 2006, Lion Air Flight 792, a Boeing 737-400, landed with an incorrect flap configuration and was not aligned with the runway. The plane landed hard and skidded along the runway causing the right main landing gear to detach, the left gear to protrude through the wing and some of the aircraft fuselage to be wrinkled. There were no fatalities, but the aircraft was written off

On 23 February 2009, Lion Air Flight 972, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82 landed without the nose gear at Hang Nadim International Airport, Batam.
On 9 March 2009, Lion Air Flight 793, a McDonnell Douglas MD-90-30 (registration PK-LIL) ran off the runway at Soekarno–Hatta International Airport. No-one was injured.

On 2 November 2010, Lion Air Flight 712, a Boeing 737-400 (registration PK-LIQ) overran the runway on landing at Supadio Airport, Pontianak, coming to rest on its belly and sustaining damage to its nose gear. All 174 passengers and crew evacuated by the emergency slides, with few injuries.

On 13 April 2013, Lion Air Flight 904, a Boeing 737-800 (registration PK-LKS; c/n 38728) from Bandung to Denpasar with 108 people on board, crashed into the water near Denpasar/Bali while attempting to land. The aircraft's fuselage broke into two parts. While Indonesian officials reported the aircraft crashed short of the runway reporters and photographers from Reuters and the Associated Press indicated that the plane overshot the runway. All passengers and crew were evacuated from the aircraft and there were no fatalities.

On 6 August 2013, Lion Air Flight 892, a Boeing 737-800 (registration PK-LKH; c/n 37297) from Makassar to Gorontalo with 117 passengers and crew on board, hit a cow while landing at Jalaluddin Airport and veered off the runway. There were no injuries.

On 1 February 2014, Lion Air Flight 361, a Boeing 737-900ER (registration PK-LFH; c/n 35710), from Balikpapan Sultan Aji Muhammad Sulaiman Airport to Ngurah Rai International Airport in Denpasar/Bali via Juanda International Airport in Surabaya, with 222 passengers and crew on board, landed hard and bounced four times on the runway, causing a tail strike and substantial damage to the plane. There were no fatalities, but two passengers were seriously injured and three others had minor injuries.

On 20 February 2016, Lion Air Flight 263 from Balikpapan Sultan Aji Muhammad Sulaiman Airport to Juanda International Airport in Surabaya overran the runway on landing, with no injuries. The National Transportation Safety Committee investigation into the incident found that failures in crew resource management led to improper landing procedures, and recommended that Indonesian airlines improve pilot training.

On 2 April 2017, about 300 litres of fuel spilled on the apron at Juanda International Airport in Surabaya. Pictures taken by passengers on board showed fuel pouring out of one of the aircraft's wings. Shortly after, all passengers were evacuated and the plane was grounded for further investigation. No casualties were reported. That same day a representative from Lion Air was summoned by the Indonesian Transport Ministry to clarify the incident. An early statement by a Lion Air representative said that the leak was caused by a non-functioning safety valve and overflow detector.

On 29 April 2018, Lion Air Flight 892, a 737-800 (registration PK-LOO), made a runway excursion at Jalaluddin Airport after landing under heavy rain conditions, resulting in the main nose gear to collapse. There were no fatalities.

On 29 October 2018, Lion Air Flight 610, a Boeing 737 MAX 8, crashed in the Java Sea 13 minutes after takeoff from Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On 8 November 2018, Lion Air Flight 633, a Boeing 737-900ER was taxiing for departure at Fatmawati Soekarno Airport when its left wing struck a light pole, severely damaging the leading edge.

On 16 February 2019, Lion Air Flight 714, a Boeing 737-800 (PK-LPS) suffered a runway excursion while landing at Supadio International Airport in wet and windy weather. No injuries were reported.

Oliver2020 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

I bet Boeing forgot to mention that the aircraft is equipped with brakes, thrust reverse, and spoilers in the manual. That's how Lion Air will spin this anyway.

I know Lion airs maintenance reputation, BUT in this instance the US3 have had their share of planes sliding skidding off the run way.

Did Boeing forget to mention that all of that to Delta (737-700)and Southwest 3 (737-700)as well.

Lion Air has 118 aircraft in service, Southwest has around 700. So, yeah, I'd expect quite a few more incidents from Southwest than Lion but the reality is quite the opposite and Lion Air is overrepresented by a wide margin.

zippy wrote:

Oliver2020 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

I bet Boeing forgot to mention that the aircraft is equipped with brakes, thrust reverse, and spoilers in the manual. That's how Lion Air will spin this anyway.

I know Lion airs maintenance reputation, BUT in this instance the US3 have had their share of planes sliding skidding off the run way.

Did Boeing forget to mention that all of that to Delta (737-700)and Southwest 3 (737-700)as well.

Lion Air has 118 aircraft in service, Southwest has around 700. So, yeah, I'd expect quite a few more incidents from Southwest than Lion but the reality is quite the opposite and Lion Air is overrepresented by a wide margin.

I want to make sure you understand I'm in no way taking up for LIon Air, and I won't state my opinion on Lion air (no offense to anyone who works for Lion Air).

Were speaking about this ONE incident, US carriers have had multiple aircraft off the runway in the last few weeks (devils advocate) how do we know this wasn't the same as some of the US incidents.

The point I'm trying to make is US carriers aren't exempt to aircraft ending up off the runway.

And to correct my earlier post I meant US carriers in general not just the US3

TC957 wrote:

Indonesia has lots of runways which aren't up to US / Western standard in construction plus a lot of awful heavy rainy weather.
The two don't mix well...

The question is why no lessons are learned from previous accidents. If it was not safe to operate in these conditions, why wasn't the airfield closed and the aircraft diverted?

Interesting list from Wikipedia. The fuel spill incident was of personal interest because I’ve twice experienced that, once on Singapore Airlines and once on British Airways.

This is the second time Lionair has overshot runway 15 at Pontianak. JT712 in 2010 was a write off. Accident/incident investigations of Lionair events show a regular theme of unstable approaches, inadequate maintenance or poor CRM as causes, especially when the tropical weather is inclement.

It’s safe to say I won’t be flying them again in any hurry.

Airport in question has 1 runway that has been recently expanded to 2500meters / 8200ft and had 28,700 movements in 2017.

Compare that to Midway, with many runways, but it's longest at only 1980meters / 6500ft which had 251,000 movements in 2017.

Of course Indonesia Indian Ocean tropical weather can be quite different than Chicago lake effect weather.

Boeing's fault I'm am sure.
When they cancel the order and start crashing Airbus products we will see them for what they are.

9w748capt wrote:

I have to say ... crap like this happens all the time in the US too. But no one here is lynching WN the way JT is here. Actually been several years since JT had a hull loss that was actually their fault.

The final report on last hull loss isn't out.
Spotty maintenance and airmanship are actually their fault.

marcelh wrote:

SEPilot wrote:

How do they still get insurance? Or do they fly without it? If I were an insurance agent and they asked for insurance I would laugh at them.

Maybe ask Southwest.....

Actually Southwest is almost 8 times larger. So by comparison of scale much safer.

To compare an American airline with an Indonesian airline is a foolhardy venture since it is not an apple to apple comparison.

Personally I don't honestly feel that Lion Air is less safer than other airlines.

Is it just Lion Air Indonesia that is bad? This Thai Lion Air trip report seems nice (Please be warned the video has the aircraft departing in heavy rain). Seems to be all part of the same Lion Air group.

https://youtu.be/GUOtrVc-zcc

Is the comparison to Southwest actually real? We’re comparing an airline with about 113~ airplanes that fly less frequently than the 700+ in southwest’s fleet?

TC957 wrote:

Indonesia has lots of runways which aren't up to US / Western standard in construction plus a lot of awful heavy rainy weather.
The two don't mix well...

This.

Worst runways of any country I've ever been to and that's saying a lot.

Poor construction, lack of maintenance and repair and ungrooved in a country with high rainfall. January-March is usually the wettest period too. Most of the runways in provincial towns and cities are less than 9000ft. Some airlines in the region tanker fuel into such places which increases landing speed and braking distance further. Little margin for error out there.

The people that defend Lion Air need to look a little closer at the HQ culture, and especially within the cockpit. Its a poorly run airline and I have an absolute NO FLY policy on them for myself, co-workers, and especially family and friends. It's an absolute no!.

This can happen to any carrier, since we have seen AF in ditches (ok bad choice - we've seen AF in a few ditches - plus AF have either crashed or attempt to crash EVERY make in their fleet - FACT!) anyhooo. AI obviously, TK sooo many. But overall minus AI, these are well run airlines. Lion Air is not!

Veigar wrote:

Is the comparison to Southwest actually real? We’re comparing an airline with about 113~ airplanes that fly less frequently than the 700+ in southwest’s fleet?

It's not, the trolls need some fuel, and it's "cool" to hate on Southwest right now. I'd go back in time and fly on every single bad accident/incident WN flight over one regular Lion Air flight.

If Indonesia is the issue not Lion Air, why doesn't Garuda have the same safety problems?

Super80Fan wrote:

The only people who defend Lion Air are Americans and Europeans. I have a good friend/co-worker from Indonesia and Lion Air is one of the unsafest airlines in the world, but continues to operate just fine or with a slap on the wrist because of the corruption and their influence on the Indonesian government, even more so than Garuda Indonesia.

What a shameful airline.

I'm glad that your "friend" is to be taken as an aviation authority based on his Nation of origin... and we shall take your opinions as fact...

sasd209 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

The only people who defend Lion Air are Americans and Europeans. I have a good friend/co-worker from Indonesia and Lion Air is one of the unsafest airlines in the world, but continues to operate just fine or with a slap on the wrist because of the corruption and their influence on the Indonesian government, even more so than Garuda Indonesia.

What a shameful airline.

I'm glad that your "friend" is to be taken as an aviation authority based on his Nation of origin... and we shall take your opinions as fact...

Lionair is bad. It is one of the lowest paying jobs in the region. Attracts the lowest 'qualified' candidates.

Varsity1 wrote:

sasd209 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

The only people who defend Lion Air are Americans and Europeans. I have a good friend/co-worker from Indonesia and Lion Air is one of the unsafest airlines in the world, but continues to operate just fine or with a slap on the wrist because of the corruption and their influence on the Indonesian government, even more so than Garuda Indonesia.

What a shameful airline.

I'm glad that your "friend" is to be taken as an aviation authority based on his Nation of origin... and we shall take your opinions as fact...

Lionair is bad. It is one of the lowest paying jobs in the region. Attracts the lowest 'qualified' candidates.

So is WN.

See what I did there? My opinion without facts to back them up.. some may say... fake news...

Flightsimboy wrote:

Is it just Lion Air Indonesia that is bad? This Thai Lion Air trip report seems nice (Please be warned the video has the aircraft departing in heavy rain). Seems to be all part of the same Lion Air group.

https://youtu.be/GUOtrVc-zcc

There’s also an American Airlines flight on a 737-800 departing from Atlanta In worse weather than that video.

I can’t upload the video but look up American Airlines flight departing in bad weather from Atlanta.

sasd209 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

sasd209 wrote:

I'm glad that your "friend" is to be taken as an aviation authority based on his Nation of origin... and we shall take your opinions as fact...

Lionair is bad. It is one of the lowest paying jobs in the region. Attracts the lowest 'qualified' candidates.

So is WN.

See what I did there? My opinion without facts to back them up.. some may say... fake news...

Southwest is probably the highest paid 737 job in the world. Lionair among the lowest.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Lion_Air

$1,400 a month for first officer.

Southwest starts at about $85,000 a year.


Air Asia pays about 50% more on the A320.

Lion Air apparently has a culture that produces way too many incidents. The pressure on management to make a profit yet price to be able to fill the planes. The pressure on pilots to keep the planes running on time. Failure to properly train pilots. Being cheap on maintenance. Operations in an area of the world with frequent serious weather issues. It is mix of issues that leads to incidents like that of the opening post. At some point they will have to change or go out of business. That may mean higher airfares, a slightly smaller airline or die. Better than than more being killed or injured, more airplanes ruined.

Varsity1 wrote:

sasd209 wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Lionair is bad. It is one of the lowest paying jobs in the region. Attracts the lowest 'qualified' candidates.

So is WN.

See what I did there? My opinion without facts to back them up.. some may say... fake news...

Southwest is probably the highest paid 737 job in the world. Lionair among the lowest.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Lion_Air

$1,400 a month for first officer.

Southwest starts at about $85,000 a year.


Air Asia pays about 50% more on the A320.

Not being a smart Alec but how does $1400 a month in Indonesia compare to 85K p.a in terms of average wages in the respective countries ?

Everyone saying it’s a routine thing is wrong. It does happen, even to western carriers, but it’s not routine.

What is much more common is a taxiway excursion due to ice or water or misjudging a turn. They are not dangerous.

This was a very dangerous situation. A runway overrun with reversers still deployed. This isn’t common and shouldn’t be brushed off.

Yet Lion Air is brushing it off. “True, slipping due to heavy rain. There were no casualties and the entire crew survived." Such a cavalier statement from Lion including laying blame on the weather for crashing an aircraft.

it is not helpful when posters with little understanding of the context of where Lion operate start comparisons with a western airline (usually US airlines). They exist in different environments and you can not make a straight comparison. While its quite natural that salaries between Indonesia and the US will differ (why would anyone compare that?), a more relevant comparison is between Indonesia and the neighbouring countries or for that sake other airlines within Indonesia.

With Lionair. It is my belief that the airline is worse than others within the region. Do I have proof of that no. I dont and I doubt anyone here has, my assumption is based on both my discussions with local industry people and my own observations.

My first big red herring with this airline lies with SOME of their flying staff. They pay some of the lowest salaries and attracts candidates that in SOME instances I dont believe should be flying. That is especially true for some of their foreign recruits whom I have heard more stories of than I should. And that's not from old bitter, complaining expat pilots (who are negative to everything always) but from virtually anyone within the airline industry in SE Asia and the subcontinent (where despite a local shortage of flying staff Lionair sources a fair bit of flying staff from)...
.
Second Id question their training and development work. There are often issues that seem strange. Parked at wrong gate at SIngapore Changi and KLIA for example and having to be towed. (one time). Never happened with other airlines but twice with Lionair? Maybe just my bad luck who knows but it sure seems strange and no we didn't role up at the gate, we turned and then saw the brakes applied.

Third Management. The company was audited. The auditors who were from SG were quickly replaced by people from another country upon suggestions of string nature from the company. They didnt take a liking to lead auditors who were local either (Indonesians).but instead (at the time I was privy to the info) they found staff from specific areas more cooperative to work with. That in itself is not specific to Lionair but rather common in Indonesia. When that is a prevailing attitude, I believe management is not interested in learning whats wrong or solving problems but rather see outsiders as causing problems for them and their cozy lives.

The list of incidents this airline has seen is shocking to be honest. There is nothing like it anywhere. They should be shut down because they continuously fail and when they do then its a cultural and organisational issue and not just bad luck due to Indonesia lacking a lot we expect in regards to infrastructure.

Oliver2020 wrote:

I want to make sure you understand I'm in no way taking up for LIon Air, and I won't state my opinion on Lion air (no offense to anyone who works for Lion Air).

Were speaking about this ONE incident, US carriers have had multiple aircraft off the runway in the last few weeks (devils advocate) how do we know this wasn't the same as some of the US incidents.

The point I'm trying to make is US carriers aren't exempt to aircraft ending up off the runway.

And to correct my earlier post I meant US carriers in general not just the US3

Looking at one incident is taking things out of context. A multitude of problems that can be rationalized away are actually problematic when they represent systemic failures. Most, if not all, airlines will have wrecks. The questions are: how frequent are these wrecks and what lessons were learned.

Southwest not only has a reputation (deserved or not) for aggressive taxi antics they've been the recipient of a record breaking FAA fine over their maintenance practices. They also fly a lot of short segments into small airports that would magnify problems caused by poor maintenance and tarmac behavior.

Lion Air has a reputation for falsifying maintenance records, avoidable wrecks, and not-so-great pilots. Check out that one Lion Air captain on youtube, he's got the one video where he forgets to arm the speed brake for landing and starts fiddling with things without informing the FO — that doesn't inspire confidence. Then look at how many wrecks they've had, avoidable or not.

Yet Southwest has a fleet nearly seven times larger than Lion Air and has overrun, what, three times since 1967? Lion Air has overrun the runway five times since 2000. Look at the other incidents that are attributable to pilot error. From Wikipedia:

On 24 December 2006, Lion Air Flight 792, a Boeing 737-400, landed with an incorrect flap configuration and was not aligned with the runway.

When was the last time an American carrier did that?