User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 23238
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:59 pm

One less boondoggle in California as new governor Gavin Newsom says he’s ending the state’s effort to build a high-speed rail line between San Francisco and Los Angeles.

Newsom said Tuesday in his State of the State address it “would cost too much and take too long” to build the line long championed by his predecessor, Jerry Brown. Latest estimates pin the cost at $77 billion and completion in 2033.

Newsom says he wants to continue construction of the high-speed link from Merced to Bakersfield in California’s Central Valley. He says building the line could bring economic transformation to the agricultural region. And he says abandoning that portion of the project would require the state to return $3.5 billion in federal dollars.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

=

When originally approved by voters in 2008 the rail was to compete with air travel offering fares at about half of flying and offer door to door LA to SF service under 3 hours for a $10Bil price tag. Service was to be self-sufficient and run on commercial terms.

Very quickly it became apparent that both the proposed enroute time could not be met, the fares could actually rival air travel as the project ballooned more than 7 fold in price.

So for the foreseeable future, the LA basin to SF bay will remain one of the worlds busiest air markets. :airplane:
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
psa188
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:02 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:09 pm

This is long overdue. The California high speed rail project has become a political project as opposed to a transportation project.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:16 pm

Good move California.

Flying it plentiful and cheap esp if you plan ahead up and down the corridor.
 
as739x
Posts: 5145
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:23 pm

About time!!!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 16263
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:28 pm

Yea! If it hadn't become such a pork barrel project...
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
UA444
Posts: 2730
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:33 pm

About the only thing I have ever agreed with Grusome Newsome on. It was a colossal waste of money and time.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3029
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:35 pm

To bad we can't hold some of these politicos responsible for this huge waste of taxpayer dollars. Looks like there is more stuff like this blowing in the wind as I write this.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 792
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:36 pm

Time for AOC to intervene...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5453
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:36 pm

If I would have pegged anyone for a fan of the New Green Deal it would have been Gavin Newsom.
Next flight: IAH-YEG-IAH on UA in Y.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3268
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Newsom says he wants to continue construction of the high-speed link from Merced to Bakersfield in California’s Central Valley. He says building the line could bring economic transformation to the agricultural region. And he says abandoning that portion of the project would require the state to return $3.5 billion in federal dollars.


In order to be credible, they still need to extend this to either SF or LA. Otherwise it's the train to nowhere.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:38 pm

For $77 billion both Airbus and Boeing could come up with hyper-efficient electric short range planes and still have money left over.

Sorry if this triggers any of our Luddite tendency hereabouts, but that much cash could fund both OEMs and engine makers to do a clean sheet project. Rechargeable hybrid aircraft running on biofuels when needed and electricity for steady demands.
Last edited by Channex757 on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
blockski
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:38 pm

It's a shame. California is an extremely promising market for high speed rail.

The political leadership for all sorts of American infrastructure decision-making is incompetent.
 
Armaghman
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:45 pm

Channex757 wrote:
For $77 billion both Airbus and Boeing could come up with hyper-efficient electric short range planes and still have money left over.

Sorry if this triggers any of our Luddite tendency hereabouts, but that much cash could fund both OEMs and engine makers to do a clean sheet project. Rechargeable hybrid aircraft running on biofuels when needed and electricity for steady demands.



Very valid point re investment in green air. Flying cars on there way
 
User avatar
janders
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

What a waste of project it had become and how voters were duped.

Anyhow for a fraction of that $77bil California could have built a massive intra-State airline.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:49 pm

I see a lot of you have your dancing shoes out to perform a tango on its grave. That is your right. I had always hoped that if this project was built it would connect all of California at a deeper level, but Amtrak and Amtrak buses will have to suffice. What should be mourned is what it would have meant to the rest of the state - outside of the LA/SD and Bay Area metropolitan regions - to connect with the rest of the state. It was a noble endeavour, killed before it began by a campaign of negativity and self-fulfilling prophecies. We deserved better here from this than we got.
 
33lspotter
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:51 pm

Generally in favor of rail projects, but this one had to go. Seven-fold increase in projected costs that were already expensive to begin with makes the (twice as expensive as projected) $3 billion GLX project here in MA seem cheap.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:57 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I see a lot of you have your dancing shoes out to perform a tango on its grave. That is your right. I had always hoped that if this project was built it would connect all of California at a deeper level, but Amtrak and Amtrak buses will have to suffice. What should be mourned is what it would have meant to the rest of the state - outside of the LA/SD and Bay Area metropolitan regions - to connect with the rest of the state. It was a noble endeavour, killed before it began by a campaign of negativity and self-fulfilling prophecies. We deserved better here from this than we got.

Fast rail is fantastic but not at any price. Property values alone in California must have killed this project off.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:59 pm

How many billions have been wasted on this incredibly stupid vanity project by now?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9044
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:07 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I see a lot of you have your dancing shoes out to perform a tango on its grave. That is your right. I had always hoped that if this project was built it would connect all of California at a deeper level, but Amtrak and Amtrak buses will have to suffice. What should be mourned is what it would have meant to the rest of the state - outside of the LA/SD and Bay Area metropolitan regions - to connect with the rest of the state. It was a noble endeavour, killed before it began by a campaign of negativity and self-fulfilling prophecies. We deserved better here from this than we got.


$77B (and potentially higher) deserves a bit of negativity. Of course, for $77B you get a high speed rail connecting northern and southern California. In Seattle, that gets you light rail.

hawaiian717 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Newsom says he wants to continue construction of the high-speed link from Merced to Bakersfield in California’s Central Valley. He says building the line could bring economic transformation to the agricultural region. And he says abandoning that portion of the project would require the state to return $3.5 billion in federal dollars.


In order to be credible, they still need to extend this to either SF or LA. Otherwise it's the train to nowhere.


They went from HSR ("premium product") to ULCC ("secondary cities") - it's really still SF-LA. lol

I'm not really clear what this will mean for that segment? Perhaps move Amtrak over off the existing freight lines?

What a mess.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
LBA1432
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:09 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:08 pm

psa188 wrote:
This is long overdue. The California high speed rail project has become a political project as opposed to a transportation project.


I only hope Westminster do the same and scrap their white elephant of a rail line that very few people actually want.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1691
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:08 pm

blockski wrote:
It's a shame. California is an extremely promising market for high speed rail.

The political leadership for all sorts of American infrastructure decision-making is incompetent.



Sir, your first statement is absurd. The market here would never have made HSR promising or even remotely profitable to repay all the bonds.

your second statement is really accurate, both parties leadership has kicked the can down the road so many times you cant tell what color the can ever was.

Perhaps NOW, we can finish widening Fwy 99 to 3 lanes from Sac to Delano, perhaps make the first large improvements to I-5 from the Grapevine to Tracy. ( 3 or 4 lanes)
and about a hundred other safety items.
 
PI4EVER
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:09 pm

FL gave up the federal money because it was already a known fact that it was an expensive venture to set up high speed rail in heavily populated areas due to existing infrastructure.
If Disney wouldn't come up with the $$ for a stop at Rat World you know most states have even more limited budgets, federal money included or not, and while it would be nice to have a high speed rail system in the US, it simply is not easily attainable between big cities.
High speed or not, I loved the rail service available in the Northeast when I recently lived in Philly for 4 years.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 2919
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:09 pm

The Amtrak San Joaqins that serve the Central Area should at least be faster and get off the BNSF rail line.

This project has been in the works for years, I have lost count how many times Popular Mechanics had "High Speed rail in California on the cover in the 80s and early 90s. Was the original estimate low balled to the voters? Or do enviromental studies cost that much?

This is what I do not understand, if California is such a progressive state why did the neighborhoods around San Fran and SoCal fight it so much? What few Republicans in the state are in the Central Area where the line is being built. The ironies are amazing.
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:10 pm

As someone who studied the Shinkasen in University, I expected cost overruns because the Japanese faced similar hurdles.

The original cost doubled if memory serves me correctly.

Now the question is if it's incredibly short sighted on Newsom's part or if there's a "Plan B" in place?
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1691
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:12 pm

aviationaware wrote:
How many billions have been wasted on this incredibly stupid vanity project by now?

will ever know..doubtful we ever get a full and honest accounting.
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 pm

They essentially seem to be building (part of) the easy bit in the central valley having realised that long tunnels into LA and SF would have been incredibly expensive. Perhaps the money could be used on a proper subway/metro system in the major cities which have pretty dire pollution and traffic problems, a station actually in LAX would be a start.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 11567
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 pm

Bradin wrote:
Now the question is if it's incredibly short sighted on Newsom's part

"short sighted?"

This has been going on through multiple gubernatorial administrations and multiple decades, with multiple increases by more than 100% each time.

This should've been killed years, and governors, ago.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 pm

william wrote:
The Amtrak San Joaqins that serve the Central Area should at least be faster and get off the BNSF rail line.

This project has been in the works for years, I have lost count how many times Popular Mechanics had "High Speed rail in California on the cover in the 80s and early 90s. Was the original estimate low balled to the voters? Or do enviromental studies cost that much?

This is what I do not understand, if California is such a progressive state why did the neighborhoods around San Fran and SoCal fight it so much? What few Republicans in the state are in the Central Area where the line is being built. The ironies are amazing.


The topography of California and its unequal distribution of people means that, unlike many other American states and countries, Californians are not equally spread out in the state. The farther west you live, the more expensive the real estate. Most of the economic growth of the state is occurring in the major metro areas, not inland - so they get left even further behind.

California might quite progressive in many ways, but its NIMBY's are incredibly well organized and as virulent as a fascist leader's rally. BUR, LGB, and SNA would be razed tomorrow by surrounding residents, SFO will never get new runways, and the opposition to a high-speed rail started the minute it was discussed. Even LAX has those who don't see the value in it, and just "wish it would go away". But this is what happens when only specific areas of the state can be developed.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1031
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 pm

Never ceases to amaze how the USA cannot seem to get infrastructure projects done in a reasonable fashion. Its like Berlin Branderburg everywhere. The Second Avenue subway is a joke. The bay bridge's new span was a colossal mess. etc etc etc.
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
DFW17L
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 pm

Antarius wrote:
Never ceases to amaze how the USA cannot seem to get infrastructure projects done in a reasonable fashion. Its like Berlin Branderburg everywhere. The Second Avenue subway is a joke. The bay bridge's new span was a colossal mess. etc etc etc.

Antairus, come to Dallas / Fort Worth, to see how infrastructure gets done. Re: HSR, it should be interesting to see if the Dallas - Houston HSR project will continue. https://www.texascentral.com/
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:25 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Now the question is if it's incredibly short sighted on Newsom's part

"short sighted?"

This has been going on through multiple gubernatorial administrations and multiple decades, with multiple increases by more than 100% each time.

This should've been killed years, and governors, ago.


If we look where the money is going to, it is spent mostly on litigation, fighting countless NIMBYs poking and prodding this case, and people asking for way above market rates when acquiring land.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 11567
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:38 pm

Bradin wrote:
If we look where the money is going to, it is spent mostly on litigation, fighting countless NIMBYs poking and prodding this case, and people asking for way above market rates when acquiring land.

What's your point?

Unless the state has clandestinely invented a magic property wand, then that's still tangible dollars that would've had to have been spent, in order to to acquire land for this translucent elephant.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1188
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:46 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
If we look where the money is going to, it is spent mostly on litigation, fighting countless NIMBYs poking and prodding this case, and people asking for way above market rates when acquiring land.

What's your point?

Unless the state has clandestinely invented a magic property wand, then that's still tangible dollars that would've had to have been spent, in order to to acquire land for this translucent elephant.

Shouldn’t eminent domain be that magic property wand?
 
ScottB
Posts: 6359
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:47 pm

blockski wrote:
It's a shame. California is an extremely promising market for high speed rail.


California is a horrible market for HSR. The geography drives up costs massively and the distance between the two key urban centers means that anything short of 160 mph+ average speed on a direct route won't be competitive in journey time with air travel. Moreover, with LA and SF both being sprawling metropolises, high speed rail is potentially far less convenient for passengers who are far from the train stations; i.e. for someone in the East Bay who travels to the O.C., OAK-SNA is still going to win hands-down over travel to downtown SF, train to downtown LA, travel to Orange County. One takes two hours and the other half a day.

Worse yet, California has the world's most virulent NIMBYs, so good luck getting any sort of rail line capable of high-speed operation built anywhere within 50 to 75 miles of the urban centers. They started the project in the Central Valley largely because the land is flat and mostly farmland, and most of the cities are depressed and saw the economic opportunity rather harping on how traumatic it would be to have to suffer through living X miles from the HSR.

LAXintl wrote:
When originally approved by voters in 2008 the rail was to compete with air travel offering fares at about half of flying and offer door to door LA to SF service under 3 hours for a $10Bil price tag. Service was to be self-sufficient and run on commercial terms.


The politicians lied to the voters to get that project approved. I don't see how anyone with half a brain would believe the rail project could get built in California for $10 billion when the replacement of the eastern section of the S.F.-Oakland Bay Bridge ended up costing $6.5 billion. I think they would have been lucky to get it done for $200 billion and the trip probably would take 4 hours.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I see a lot of you have your dancing shoes out to perform a tango on its grave. That is your right. I had always hoped that if this project was built it would connect all of California at a deeper level, but Amtrak and Amtrak buses will have to suffice. What should be mourned is what it would have meant to the rest of the state - outside of the LA/SD and Bay Area metropolitan regions - to connect with the rest of the state. It was a noble endeavour, killed before it began by a campaign of negativity and self-fulfilling prophecies.


Nah, this project died because California: Sky-high costs to get anything built in the metropolitan regions and NIMBYs who will find any excuse to keep anything from getting built anywhere near anything (a.k.a. BANANAs). L.A. and S.F. really don't care about the rest of the state because it tends to vote red and so they "don't share our values."
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 677
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:48 pm

You have to remember that what the voters approved back in the day isn't what we've been told we were getting. I actually voted for it, but the goalposts constantly shifted, the lawsuits piled up, and it became clear that the people running the project really hadn't a clue about how to proceed in any truly meaningful way. The current rail, highway and air links work just fine, and even if the train had been built, it wouldn't have been a bullet train for much of its route, having to use preexisting slower speed rail. Actually, it would have wound up being slower than air travel even with all of the TSA lunacy. Now, where could a bullet train work? LA/SD to Las Vegas, if the demand can be proven; lots of open flat land, fewer property owners to pile up the lawsuits, and the chance to really beat air travel times, or to at least come close. We'll never see it, though. The current gang of idiots who ruined the bullet train will have so poisoned the waters that the voters will never approve such a project in my lifetime.
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:49 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
If we look where the money is going to, it is spent mostly on litigation, fighting countless NIMBYs poking and prodding this case, and people asking for way above market rates when acquiring land.

What's your point?

Unless the state has clandestinely invented a magic property wand, then that's still tangible dollars that would've had to have been spent, in order to to acquire land for this translucent elephant.


It's one thing to pay fair market rates, and a small premium. It's another when someone wants double or triple market rates - and they know they can command that price because you're going to build it.

Classic case study: Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida.

Walt Disney himself used a ton of shell companies to purchase lands out of concern that people would want more because they knew Walt Disney was purchasing it.

In late June of 1965, the Orlando Sentinel reported that 27,000 acres of land had recently changed hands. By October 1965, the Orlando Sentinel reported it was Disney buying the land and the price per acre literally soared overnight.

cledaybuck wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Bradin wrote:
If we look where the money is going to, it is spent mostly on litigation, fighting countless NIMBYs poking and prodding this case, and people asking for way above market rates when acquiring land.

What's your point?

Unless the state has clandestinely invented a magic property wand, then that's still tangible dollars that would've had to have been spent, in order to to acquire land for this translucent elephant.

Shouldn’t eminent domain be that magic property wand?


You can still fight the government when it invokes eminent domain - and that costs money. Part of the settlements usually involves the government or taxpayers paying for the litigation costs of landowners.

Another case study - relevant to this forum/community - when LAX announced the TBIT expansion/overhaul and the Central Terminal Project. There was a lot of money spent there on litigation.
Last edited by Bradin on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:50 pm

It was doomed as soon as they opted to go away from the coast where everyone lives. That was pretty much day one. Didn't connect to airports, even bigger nails.
Putting one on ignore does not squelch speech or debate, it’s quiets the noise.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 16263
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:54 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I see a lot of you have your dancing shoes out to perform a tango on its grave. That is your right. I had always hoped that if this project was built it would connect all of California at a deeper level, but Amtrak and Amtrak buses will have to suffice. What should be mourned is what it would have meant to the rest of the state - outside of the LA/SD and Bay Area metropolitan regions - to connect with the rest of the state. It was a noble endeavour, killed before it began by a campaign of negativity and self-fulfilling prophecies. We deserved better here from this than we got.

The original budget train was reasonable. Dare I admit I voted for this rail? What it became was horrid. I saw it more as commuter rail for Palmdale to LA or outskirts of the bay area to San Francisco/Silicon Valley.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:56 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
The current rail, highway and air links work just fine, and even if the train had been built, it wouldn't have been a bullet train for much of its route, having to use preexisting slower speed rail.


This seems to be a common theme not just in California and throughout the US. No one seems to have the political courage, appetite, or understanding that we have to make proper long term strategic investments in infrastructure - whether it be rail or airport.

Acela is a great example on the rail side where it shares some of the common rail with freight and it causes the trains to slow down. But where it has dedicated tracks - boy does it soar.

The same applies for airports. Just too much short cutting, and small short term projects waiting for the atmosphere to change.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10862
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 pm

Last year (so current prices) the new LGV Tours-Bordeaux, continuing the existing Paris-Tours LGV, was inaugurated. 300Km long, it cost 10 billions euros and 5 years to build. Now Paris-Bordeaux can be done in 2 hours and 4 minutes, it's about as far as SF to LA. We also have plenty of environmental rules to follow, and our fair share of NIMBYs (in fact we have a kind I've not heard of in the US, ZADistes).

77 billions and 2033 seems like incompetent people were in charge.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
Last year (so current prices) the new LGV Tours-Bordeaux, continuing the existing Paris-Tours LGV, was inaugurated. 300Km long, it cost 10 billions euros and 5 years to build. Now Paris-Bordeaux can be done in 2 hours and 4 minutes, it's about as far as SF to LA. We also have plenty of environmental rules to follow, and our fair share of NIMBYs (in fact we have a kind I've not heard of in the US, ZADistes).

77 billions and 2033 seems like incompetent people were in charge.


I wasn't following this infrastructure project. Any idea if this was caught in litigation?
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
If I would have pegged anyone for a fan of the New Green Deal it would have been Gavin Newsom.


I'd tend to agree. Herein lies the key point: The Green New Deal seems like a fantastic idea until the numbers are crunched. The rest of the GND will come crashing down as soon as the pencils come out.

Dieuwer wrote:
Time for AOC to intervene...


Oh yeah. I can't wait. This oughta be good.

The project was doomed from the word "go." CA's culture isn't like Japan's, but then again, even Narita held up new runways for years.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
Bradin
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:17 pm

birdbrainz wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
If I would have pegged anyone for a fan of the New Green Deal it would have been Gavin Newsom.


I'd tend to agree. Herein lies the key point: The Green New Deal seems like a fantastic idea until the numbers are crunched. The rest of the GND will come crashing down as soon as the pencils come out.

Dieuwer wrote:
Time for AOC to intervene...


Oh yeah. I can't wait. This oughta be good.

The project was doomed from the word "go." CA's culture isn't like Japan's, but then again, even Narita held up new runways for years.


Isn't Narita held up to some extent?
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:24 pm

Autonomous cars and Sky Taxi's will be here sooner than any new HS rail can be built and it literally solves nothing as flying is cheaper and quicker.
Last edited by UpNAWAy on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 469
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:25 pm

Bradin wrote:
birdbrainz wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
If I would have pegged anyone for a fan of the New Green Deal it would have been Gavin Newsom.


I'd tend to agree. Herein lies the key point: The Green New Deal seems like a fantastic idea until the numbers are crunched. The rest of the GND will come crashing down as soon as the pencils come out.

Dieuwer wrote:
Time for AOC to intervene...


Oh yeah. I can't wait. This oughta be good.

The project was doomed from the word "go." CA's culture isn't like Japan's, but then again, even Narita held up new runways for years.


Isn't Narita held up to some extent?


That's my point. There are plenty of NIMBY's in Japan.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:25 pm

The problem to me, was all the NIMBYs and their lawsuits. I hope California tax the hell outta air travel and make them unaffordable.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:31 pm

I knew this would never happen.

And let’s stop acting like NIMBYism is a Right vs Left thing. It is a rich vs poor thing no matter their political background. Try to build a train through the rich and red hills of Orange County or through some blue urban oasis it will be the same response. Get over yourselves.
 
caliboy93
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:41 pm

Practical over political, always.
 
gmcc
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:46 pm

The biggest problem with the project started when the federal government said we will give you 3.5 billion to help with the cost but you have to start it from Bakersfield to merced. That pretty much killed it. Before the federal government got involved one of the first operating segments was going to be from la union station to Anaheim. Had they started there, it might have actually made an difference in traffic and engender some good will. Starting in the desert changed the optics to the point where more and more people saw no benefit for the ballooning cost.
 
psa188
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:02 pm

Re: California abandons plan for LA-SF HSR; air travel continues to rule the market

Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:07 pm

The biggest problem with the CA high speed rail project was the convoluted route. SF-LA via Palmdale made no sense, added to the cost and the running time.

If you have time on your hands, go to http://www.calrailnews.org/archive/ and read what TRAC, a group of rail advocates, wrote about this project.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dutchy, TTailedTiger and 50 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos