Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
MIflyer12 wrote:klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
AA/BA couldn't even make ORD-MAN work. You keep putting your faith in losers against objective fact and reason and thus frequently face disappointment.
klm617 wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
AA/BA couldn't even make ORD-MAN work. You keep putting your faith in losers against objective fact and reason and thus frequently face disappointment.
AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
MIflyer12 wrote:klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
AA/BA couldn't even make ORD-MAN work. You keep putting your faith in losers against objective fact and reason and thus frequently face disappointment.
FA9295 wrote:klm617 wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:
AA/BA couldn't even make ORD-MAN work. You keep putting your faith in losers against objective fact and reason and thus frequently face disappointment.
AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
AA ended ORD-PVG/PEK because there was way too much competition (from Hainan, United, etc.). DTW-PEK/PVG has no competition at all. It's just Delta.
SeanM1997 wrote:Jet Airways did agree with KLM to obtain a daily slot for a second daily Delhi to London Heathrow flight but was refused by Indian regulators as Air India still had rights to a second daily Mumbai to London Heathrow route. With this take over, I can see from either W19 or S20 that Virgin Atlantic will operate an additional daily Delhi flight and codeshare with Jet Airways (as they codeshare on respective networks).
In addition, if Virgin Atlantic buys Flybe and wants to start connecting short haul feed, I could see some Air France and KLM flights being swapped with Virgin Atlantic, maintaining frequencies between LHR and CDG/AMS but freeing up aircraft for the respective carriers to use at their hubs.
Air France and KLM are sitting on a number of slots which they are using Embraer aircraft to operate (1x daily AF, 4x daily KL). If these slots can be used for Virgin long haul, it would free up their aircraft as well as allowing new long haul routes.
Expect big changes for Virgin Atlantic over the next 12 months. Their network may be completely different to what we see today.
klm617 wrote:plus VS has brand recognition in Manchester and with the Detroit feed would work much better than an AA flight out of ORD.
winginit wrote:klm617 wrote:plus VS has brand recognition in Manchester and with the Detroit feed would work much better than an AA flight out of ORD.
You're implying there, I think, that DL has a broader network out of DTW compared to AA at ORD, which isn't true. AA has a much larger presence at ORD when compared to DL at DTW:
2018:
AA at ORD
- 155 destinations
- 34.7 million seats
DL at DTW
- 133 destinations
- 31.2 million seats
With those numbers in mind, why is it that Detroit feed would 'work much better' compared to AA's feed at ORD, which is more robust?
Additionally, the AA ORDMAN flight that failed had BA codeshare involved, and BA has much better brand recognition at MAN than VS does at present.
This whole discussion is of course for now pointless since only a single regulatory authority of three has approved this Blue Skies JV and there's still a long way to go especially with Brexit in play.
klm617 wrote:AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
jomur wrote:Question is will the UK approve it after Brexit?
klm617 wrote:FA9295 wrote:klm617 wrote:
AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
AA ended ORD-PVG/PEK because there was way too much competition (from Hainan, United, etc.). DTW-PEK/PVG has no competition at all. It's just Delta.
Correct like ORD is over saturated with low fares in many markets DTW-MAN on VS also could get greater yields than ORD-MAN can plus VS has brand recognition in Manchester and with the Detroit feed would work much better than an AA flight out of ORD.
N174UA wrote:What impact (if any) might this have on the current seasonal PDX-LHR route operated by DL with a 763? This year, the route will be daily, from May through October.
With DL owning a 49% stake in VS, would it make more sense to switch this route to a VS 787, and then make it year-round? The 787 is ideal for thin routes, and to me would be a perfect match for international flying out of PDX.
N174UA wrote:The 787 is ideal for thin routes, and to me would be a perfect match for international flying out of PDX.
klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
klm617 wrote:AA have every competitor imaginable in Chicago to deal with why do you think it has moved most of it year round international traffic out of ORD to PHL and DFW because there is not enough premium traffic to make it worth their while.
jomur wrote:Question is will the UK approve it after Brexit?
Galwayman wrote:Of course they will , they’ll just be rule takers from now on and if they get too big for their boots Virgin will be toast
LAX772LR wrote:klm617 wrote:AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
Not sure why I'm jumping into the pit of your general irrationality..... but it's worth noting that DTW-PEK/PVG are hub-hub routes for DL, whereas they were terminators for AA.
CZ has its secondary hub at PEK, MU has its primary hub at PVG, and DL fed into both.
AA had no mainland PRC partner during its tenure on the ORD routes, and suffered in the face of stateside and Chinese competition.
Sancho99504 wrote:LAX772LR wrote:klm617 wrote:AA couldn't make ORD-PVG/PEK work but yet her were are with DTW-PEK/PVG thriving.
Not sure why I'm jumping into the pit of your general irrationality..... but it's worth noting that DTW-PEK/PVG are hub-hub routes for DL, whereas they were terminators for AA.
CZ has its secondary hub at PEK, MU has its primary hub at PVG, and DL fed into both.
AA had no mainland PRC partner during its tenure on the ORD routes, and suffered in the face of stateside and Chinese competition.
Okay? AA ORD-NRT is hub-hub with JL feed, yet it's no longer daily.....
ELBOB wrote:but if owned by airlines I do believe they should be forced to rebrand to reflect their ownership, for transparency in the market. So Virgin should become Air France KLM Delta UK. If they don't like it, they can find other investors.
Jomar777 wrote:Will this also mean VS joining (finally) the Sky Team Alliance?
Sorry for the dumb question but I struggle to see why VS is not on any alliance whereas DL (and AF and KL for that matter) are.
Jomar777 wrote:Will this also mean VS joining (finally) the Sky Team Alliance?
Sorry for the dumb question but I struggle to see why VS is not on any alliance whereas DL (and AF and KL for that matter) are.
SeanM1997 wrote:J if Virgin Atlantic buys Flybe and wants to start connecting short haul feed
ELBOB wrote:I've no problem with offshore ownership of airlines ( unlike the EU and its closed-club protected market ) but if owned by airlines I do believe they should be forced to rebrand to reflect their ownership, for transparency in the market. So Virgin should become Air France KLM Delta UK. If they don't like it, they can find other investors.
raylee67 wrote:Essentially there are three TATL airlines left:
AA-BA-IB-AY
UA-LH-OS-SN-SK-LX
DL-AF-KL-VS
There is not much left outside of these three giants. What's the total market share of the rest?
The same is playing out for Trans-Pacific but in a much more limited scope as the Asian airlines are not willing to cooperate with each other in a similarly tight manner as the European ones.
Obzerva wrote:Jomar777 wrote:Will this also mean VS joining (finally) the Sky Team Alliance?
Sorry for the dumb question but I struggle to see why VS is not on any alliance whereas DL (and AF and KL for that matter) are.
Whilst it may seem logical to join the same club as all your partners, let’s flip the question.
What benefit does VS get in substantial terms from the other Skyteam members that aren’t KL, AF, DL?
If the large majority of your gains are in that group, why add extra the cost of a full membership for very little extra?
SeanM1997 wrote:Jet Airways did agree with KLM to obtain a daily slot for a second daily Delhi to London Heathrow flight but was refused by Indian regulators as Air India still had rights to a second daily Mumbai to London Heathrow route. With this take over, I can see from either W19 or S20 that Virgin Atlantic will operate an additional daily Delhi flight and codeshare with Jet Airways (as they codeshare on respective networks).
In addition, if Virgin Atlantic buys Flybe and wants to start connecting short haul feed, I could see some Air France and KLM flights being swapped with Virgin Atlantic, maintaining frequencies between LHR and CDG/AMS but freeing up aircraft for the respective carriers to use at their hubs.
Air France and KLM are sitting on a number of slots which they are using Embraer aircraft to operate (1x daily AF, 4x daily KL). If these slots can be used for Virgin long haul, it would free up their aircraft as well as allowing new long haul routes.
Expect big changes for Virgin Atlantic over the next 12 months. Their network may be completely different to what we see today.
SeanM1997 wrote:Expect big changes for Virgin Atlantic over the next 12 months. Their network may be completely different to what we see today.
LAX772LR wrote:Sancho99504 wrote:LAX772LR wrote:Not sure why I'm jumping into the pit of your general irrationality..... but it's worth noting that DTW-PEK/PVG are hub-hub routes for DL, whereas they were terminators for AA.
CZ has its secondary hub at PEK, MU has its primary hub at PVG, and DL fed into both.
AA had no mainland PRC partner during its tenure on the ORD routes, and suffered in the face of stateside and Chinese competition.
Okay? AA ORD-NRT is hub-hub with JL feed, yet it's no longer daily.....
Indeed, but seeing as no one was talking about NRT, I'm not exactly sure what your point is.....
Sancho99504 wrote:You insinuate that DL only makes it work because
klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
User001 wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:klm617 wrote:Good now maybe VS will start DTW-MAN or bring back DTW-LHR
AA/BA couldn't even make ORD-MAN work. You keep putting your faith in losers against objective fact and reason and thus frequently face disappointment.
In all fairness it was the abysmal OTP and more than frequent cancellations that caused the downfall of AA MAN-ORD. You can only push people so far before they start flying other routes. With high prices and poor service, carriers like VS saw their opportunity and ate AA’s lunch.
And it’s that same VS that could start a DTW route to feed into delta. With Heathrow becoming full, Manchester is seeing a role as a secondary hub for U.K. ops. Never say never.
No it won't as VS is already operating profitable routes from LHR, LGW and MAN (to a lesser extent)
David_itl wrote:VS at MAN operates ATL, BGI BOS, JFK, LAS, LAX, MCO plus codeshare with 9W to BOM.
DTWLAX wrote:David_itl wrote:VS at MAN operates ATL, BGI BOS, JFK, LAS, LAX, MCO plus codeshare with 9W to BOM.
VS does not operate MAN-LAX
gunnerman wrote:MAN-LAX is a summer-only route for VS and MT this year. For VS it's three times a week from 26 May to 25 October using the 332.