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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:41 am

blrsea wrote:
I laid out reasons on why we can't assume only 9W/DL/KL will have better connections/layover etc (which too was your own self-made hypothesis BTW), and hence there is a good chance that even 9W/EY or 6E/QR/TK alliance might offer similar convenience and there is nothing to suggest one will be better than other.


That again depends on their network and points of call operated from tier 2 cities in India to QR/TK hubs. You again can't make some general assumption that they'll provide similar convenience even before they started any of these connections and codeshare agreements.

blrsea wrote:
Hence the 50/50. I was just challenging your assertion(without facts) that there is a higher probability of 2 stop connections being of shorter duration than 1-stop connection.


So you further continue to nitpick what I have written by clearly eliminating all the other information associated with it. Did i ever make a general statement that a two stop is faster than a one stop flight? Or was I speaking about specific airlines, their network, frequency, etc. and about overall journey time from origin to destination being important. Also I never stated anything as a fact like the way you are coming up with your own numbers.
Scroll up and see one of the first responses to this topic , and I'm posting one statement from there :

avier wrote:
That's there, but it all comes down to total time too. Number of stops doesn't determine everything.
....
....
So looking at overall value and total time (flight time+layover time), the number of stops can be irrelevant.


blrsea wrote:
Going by your example for IDR-BOM-CDG-NCE., is BOM-CDG long haul or short-haul? How many frequencies does 9W/AF have on BOM-CDG route?? How many frequencies does 9W have on BOM-AUH?? Whats the use of multiple CDG-NCE connections if you can't even reach CDG? This is my last post on this topic.


9W/AF have 2 flights between BOM-CDG supported by mutiple frequencies on either end of their hubs to the cities mentioned in the example. And you state you can't even reach CDG ???
9W/EY have 5 flights between BOM-AUH. All these lot more than what 6E/QR can have from tier 2 Indian or even EU cities.

Hence I request you to stay on the original topic about two airline groups and how they can connect smaller Indian cities to EU and not single out statements and taking them to be as assertions. It's also funny how you took a random example like IDR-NCE quite literally.
Last edited by avier on Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:42 am

9W does not have high frequency flights between BOM and any tier 2 city in India. Choosing a hypothetical IDR-DOH-NCE on 6E/QR over IDR-BOM-CDG-NCE is a no brainer, especially when you consider clearing immigration at BOM and CDG over IDR and NCE.

9W/AF have 2 flights between BOM-CDG supported by mutiple frequencies on either end of their hubs to the cities mentioned in the example.

Those two flights arrive one hour apart. You essentially end up connecting to the same bank at CDG. This is the opposite of what high frequency means
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:49 am

unrave wrote:
9W does not have high frequency flights between BOM and any tier 2 city in India. Choosing a hypothetical IDR-DOH-NCE on 6E/QR over IDR-BOM-CDG-NCE is a no brainer, especially when you consider clearing immigration at BOM and CDG over IDR and NCE.

Yeah , even if the layover time at DOH is 12hrs, it's a no brainer. Right? That's still faster than immigration time at CDG & BOM.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:53 am

avier wrote:
Yeah , even if the layover time at DOH is 12hrs, it's a no brainer. Right?

Layover time is just one factor that decides the choice of one airline over another. If the flight is cheaper by even a few thousand rupees, Indian VFR traffic will not mind spending 12 hours in DOH. Fliers from non metros hate connecting at BOM/DEL.
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:55 am

unrave wrote:

9W/AF have 2 flights between BOM-CDG supported by mutiple frequencies on either end of their hubs to the cities mentioned in the example.

Those two flights arrive one hour apart. You essentially end up connecting to the same bank at CDG. This is the opposite of what high frequency means


Agreed. But they still have mutiple short haul frequencies feeding at either side at CDG & BOM to the final destination, don't they? And there would also be reason they are both operating at that time, probably a heavy bank on either side? Thought of that?
 
trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:07 am

Analysis: Why ‘stopover holidays’ are the next big opportunity for Indian airlines

It is time for the government to explore a mechanism wherein airlines, hotels and the tourism sector benefit by offering “stopover holidays”.
New Delhi has the potential to be an effective transit hub with several connecting points.
While New Delhi is the hub for Air India and sees maximum international connectivity out of India, Bengaluru and Mumbai can also be part of the stopover holidays package.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/analy ... 206671.htm
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:07 am

But 9W does not have frequent flights to tier 2 cities in India and typically when you're returning to India you'll be overnighting at BOM. Compare the two scenarios:
    Check-in at NCE and clear immigration.
    Few hours' layover at DOH.
    Land at CJB, clear immigration and collect bags

and

    Check-in at NCE.
    Clear immigration at CDG with a small layover.
    Clear immigration at BOM and collect bags. Overnight at BOM
    Check-in again at BOM
    Land at CJB and collect bags

The second scenario is a nightmare.
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:11 am

avier wrote:
Agreed. But they still have mutiple short haul frequencies feeding at either side at CDG & BOM to the final destination, don't they? And there would also be reason they are both operating at that time, probably a heavy bank on either side? Thought of that?

So what is the exact advantage here - high frequencies or connecting to a single bank? It can't be both.
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:17 am

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
Agreed. But they still have mutiple short haul frequencies feeding at either side at CDG & BOM to the final destination, don't they? And there would also be reason they are both operating at that time, probably a heavy bank on either side? Thought of that?

So what is the exact advantage here - high frequencies or connecting to a single bank? It can't be both.


Oh, it can't be both, why not? . The single bank obviously would connect to high frequencies either side. You think two major airlines from their respective HUBS will operate flights to each others hubs at the same time on WB's to feed a dead bank? Really? Is that what you could reason out? You're trying to prove as if 9W & AF are retarded here.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:23 am

avier wrote:
Oh, it can't be both, why not? . The single bank obviously would connect to high frequencies either side.

How can two flights that connect to the same bank connect o high frequencies. High frequency is when an airline operates multiple flights throughout the day - like 6E on MAA-CJB (7x daily with the 8th coming soon). I can't think of a single tier 2 city that 9W has high frequency flights to.

And as to the question of whether the airlines are retarded, I can't speak for AF but I have followed 9W long enough to know that its business decisions often defy common sense
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:25 am

unrave wrote:
But 9W does not have frequent flights to tier 2 cities in India and typically when you're returning to India you'll be overnighting at BOM. Compare the two scenarios:
    Check-in at NCE and clear immigration.
    Few hours' layover at DOH.
    Land at CJB, clear immigration and collect bags

and

    Check-in at NCE.
    Clear immigration at CDG with a small layover.
    Clear immigration at BOM and collect bags. Overnight at BOM
    Check-in again at BOM
    Land at CJB and collect bags

The second scenario is a nightmare.


Very smart!
Best case scenario used at DOH (few hours layover) vs. Worst case scenario at BOM (overnight) --- despite knowing QR & 6E will operate at the most one flight as a group between CJB-DOH and DOH-NCE. And AF/9W having mutiple flights from their hubs each. Not to forget say some alternate routings provided on return journey through other group airlines/hubs like say AMS/DEL/AUH on the same booking like what typically 9W does to make flight times more convenient and quick.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:35 am

avier wrote:

Worst case scenario at BOM (overnight) .

Correction: That is the only scenario with 9W. If you're returning on 9W you have to overnight at BOM
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:39 am

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
Oh, it can't be both, why not? . The single bank obviously would connect to high frequencies either side.

How can two flights that connect to the same bank connect o high frequencies. High frequency is when an airline operates multiple flights throughout the day - like 6E on MAA-CJB (7x daily with the 8th coming soon). I can't think of a single tier 2 city that 9W has high frequency flights to.


How does the high frequency of MAA-CJB help feed the DOH flight? If in case you are now shifting to the idea that int'l pax be routed to CJB through MAA with codesharing, that can be still done by QR/6E flights to MAA and feeding that onwards to CJB. That would then make that a two-stop flight which is contrary to what you first spoke of tier 2 Indian cities wanting/preferring one stop connections to EU. Lol. And that also defeats the whole purpose of the conversation of tier 2 cities getting directl int'l connectivity to global hubs like DOH.
Also going by that logic , it's to be noted then that 9W operates direct to CDG- MAA and can feed through to CJB then.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:43 am

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:

Worst case scenario at BOM (overnight) .

Correction: That is the only scenario with 9W. If you're returning on 9W you have to overnight at BOM


Oh, so in case of DOH you also then have a short layover option already in the example we are currently referring to (CJB-DOH- NCE) then? How can you be so sure of that ?
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:49 am

avier wrote:

How does the high frequency of MAA-CJB help feed the DOH flight? If in case you are now shifting to the idea that int'l pax be routed to CJB through MAA with codesharing, that can be still done by QR/6E flights to MAA and feeding that onwards to CJB. That would then make that a two-stop flight which is contrary to what you first spoke of tier 2 Indian cities wanting/preferring one stop connections to EU. Lol. And that also defeats the whole purpose of the conversation of tier 2 cities getting directl int'l connectivity to global hubs like DOH.
Also going by that logic , it's to be noted then that 9W operates direct to CDG- MAA and can feed through to CJB then.


That is an example of an airline operating high frequencies between two cities. That example is in contrast with 9W not operating high frequency flights between BOM and any city. Which defeats your claim that having two layovers is better because 9W/AF has multiple frequencies at both ends. That is not true for the Indian side and therefore you end up overnighting at BOM. Which makes a hypothetical NCE-DOH-CJB routing on 6E/QR much better for travellers than NCE-CDG-BOM-CJB.

I am very well aware that 6E currently operates to DOH only a select few cities. When the code agreement comes to fruition, you can expect 6E to connect more secondary cities with DOH, which also opens up the possibility for bilateral being expanded, in line with the current policy for bilateral with territories that lie within 5000 km of DEL.
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:52 am

avier wrote:

Oh, so in case of DOH you also then have a short layover option already in the example we are currently referring to (CJB-DOH- NCE) then? How can you be so sure of that ?

No, I am not sure of having a short layover option at DOH. Even a longish layover at DOH is better than an overnight layover at BOM because that avoids clearing immigration at BOM and scurrying around the airport with 30 kg of luggage
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:06 pm

unrave wrote:
That is an example of an airline operating high frequencies between two cities. That example is in contrast with 9W not operating high frequency flights between BOM and any city. Which defeats your claim that having two layovers is better because 9W/AF has multiple frequencies at both ends. That is not true for the Indian side and therefore you end up overnighting at BOM. Which makes a hypothetical NCE-DOH-CJB routing on 6E/QR much better for travellers than NCE-CDG-BOM-CJB.


But then how does that same example make your assumption stronger that 6E/QR flights will be faster ? Will they have have any higher frequency on their city pairs to make things quicker? Isnt a few daily well timed flights from BOM/DEL used in coordination with any other their 3 partner airlines flying to India or even their own EU connecting flights at BLR/MAA, used in various permutations/combinations better than a lone daily 6E/QR flight one each leg all the way to EU? Or you still think that those not-even-commenced ops. are a better bet?

What I don't understand is how are you so confident that the options through DOH will have to be better? Your whole hypothesis on that is on a best case scenario basis, which is hard to believe knowing the circumstances like points of call & BASA, etc.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:07 pm

Kerala government has cut ATF tax to 5% from 29% at all airports except CNN, where a concessionary tax of % is applicable for 10 years
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:14 pm

avier wrote:
But then how does that same example make your assumption stronger that 6E/QR flights will be faster ? Will they have have any higher frequency on their city pairs to make things quicker? Isnt a few daily well timed flights from BOM/DEL used in coordination with any other their 3 partner airlines flying to India or even their own EU connecting flights at BLR/MAA, used in various permutations/combinations better than a lone daily 6E/QR flight one each leg all the way to EU? Or you still think that those not-even-commenced ops. are a better bet?

What I don't understand is how are you so confident that the options through DOH will have to be better? Your whole hypothesis on that is on a best case scenario basis, which is hard to believe knowing the circumstances like points of call & BASA, etc.

No, the 6E/QR flights need not necessarily be faster. Any routing that bypasses Indian "hubs" is better.

If you look at Jet's operations, all of its European flights - on its own metal and on its partner airlines - arrive at times that makes it mandatory to overnight at an Indian airport, making them non ideal.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:25 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
...
Why would the GOI care about Jet shareholders getting $600M. Even if banks benefit, $600M is nothing. I assume AUH gave India’s petro chemical business even more access to the UAE or something else. The one upside to giving these golden gifts to the UAE, India has definitely benefited by being close to the UAE. As much as I am not a fan of the super generous seat grants to the UAE, the overall relationship is at least a two way street where both benefit (I have no idea who comes out ahead over all). The bigger question is if EY even needs all these seats to India. Also with 50K seats, why do they even need Jet. Here’s hoping they have a plan. I think a AUH + BOM hubs plus the DL/AF/KL/VS relationship might be the way to beat EK. Pushing everything to AUH plan is tired and won’t work.


Why India should save private carriers?
Indians always admired airlines provided service exceeding the fares they paid, even though that is not a sustainable long-term business model. KF, EK(state subsidies), and 6E(fares below cost where necessary) fall into this category. Some think why VJM being persecuted just for 9,000 crores. Just writeoff his debt, give his own Cayman island leased ATRs back, he will bring the glitter back to Indian aviation.

You can funnel entire southern seaboard thru ATL for domestic connections, people are a-OK. You ask South Indians do the same at BLR, they will say take a hike.

India actually had a vision of how they wanted to develop the network, the primary focus was the shortest distance/time not based on creating super hubs.
India's plan was exactly opposite to that of the USA.

The idea was to maximize domestic P2P, not thru (DEL/BOM), AI to have a hub at DEL. 9W to have a domestic hub at BOM and feed int traffic AUH from Tier 2/3 cities, again without burdening DEL/BOM.

LCCs and ULCCs should focus on P2P, again not to burden BOM/DEL or to create BLR hub and hoard slots.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why India should save private carriers?
Indians always admired airlines provided service exceeding the fares they paid, even though that is not a sustainable long-term business model. KF, EK(state subsidies), and 6E(fares below cost where necessary) fall into this category.

Factcheck: 6E unit costs have never fallen below unit revenues on an annual basis and only once on a quarterly basis
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:32 pm

unrave wrote:
No, the 6E/QR flights need not necessarily be faster. Any routing that bypasses Indian "hubs" is better.

If you look at Jet's operations, all of its European flights - on its own metal and on its partner airlines - arrive at times that makes it mandatory to overnight at an Indian airport, making them non ideal.


Oh, so what if it happened to be an overnight at DOH? That should be better right? With hoards more people in the crowded transit hub, which only funnels pax around the world.

And looking at a dummy booking with 9W for the routing used as an example by you, the overnighting was 4hrs at BOM, from about ~1am to 6am. And that also happened to be the fastest+cheapest option. So the overnighting was about 4hrs, which if was 12hrs overnight in an Arab countries hub with tons of transit pax, be a better option according to you. Nice logic.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46 pm

avier wrote:

Oh, so what if it happened to be an overnight at DOH? That should be better right? With hoards more people in the crowded transit hub, which only funnels pax around the world.

And looking at a dummy booking with 9W for the routing used as an example by you, the overnighting was 4hrs at BOM, from about ~1am to 6am. And that also happened to be the fastest+cheapest option. So the overnighting was about 4hrs, which if was 12hrs overnight in an Arab countries hub with tons of transit pax, be a better option according to you. Nice logic.


1 am to 6 am is 5 hours.
I stand by my point: Any routing that avoids Indian airports is better because that eliminates the need for dual checkin. Doesn't matter what the airline is: a hypothetical AUH-CJB on 9W is good too. This is what the "BOM hub wallas" of this forum fail to understand. Indian airports are extremely inconvenient and unpleasant when it comes to domestic transits.
By the way the '12 hour transit' is as yet a figment of imagination. If/when the codeshare fructifies the transit times should be shorter.
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:14 pm

unrave wrote:

1 am to 6 am is 5 hours.
I stand by my point: Any routing that avoids Indian airports is better because that eliminates the need for dual checkin. Doesn't matter what the airline is: a hypothetical AUH-CJB on 9W is good too. This is what the "BOM hub wallas" of this forum fail to understand. Indian airports are extremely inconvenient and unpleasant when it comes to domestic transits.
By the way the '12 hour transit' is as yet a figment of imagination. If/when the codeshare fructifies the transit times should be shorter.


5hrs is the time from arrival to the next departure time. The actual wait time be ~ 4hrs or less after all the stuff that happens in between till the next boarding, even after including long immigration that you seem to fuss over at BOM.

I also doubt short layovers at DOH, even after the codeshares fructify, with lone daily flights being operated. Unless QR operates say 5 daily to say NCE. And if BASA is not increased, it will be a bummer for them. Soo till then, let even that remain a figment of imagination that there will be convenient both way connections at DOH.
And like you also mention, 9Ws alternate combined routings through AUH along with their other hubs in the itinerary, may also be a better overall option.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:19 pm

A Go Air neo suffered a mid air engine malfunction today flying AMD-CCU returned to AMB. The aircraft in question, VT-WGG has resumed flying, PW reports that the test reports showed no signs of engine failure
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anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:39 pm

Did anyone see the new AI ad? Its pretty sweet! Agreed, not world class, but it captures the emotions of a typical Indian middle class beautifully

https://www.facebook.com/AirIndia/posts ... %22O%22%7D
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:43 pm

As many of you have more knowledge regarding the ticking system or travel agents than me, I had a question, If I have booked a ticket to London or Paris or well anywhere through my Travel agent, can any other travel agent find out where I have booked my tickets by putting my name or my passport number? Can travel agents do this?

I am asking cause whenever I book a ticket to somewhere, somehow my cousin comes to know of it, they don't know who my travel agent is and mostly I book through the official websites or sites like Cleartrip/Makemytrip, but somehow my cousin comes to know where I am travelling to and in which month I am travelling to? how is that even possible? long time ago he had told me that his travel agent helps him to find about people, If his travel agent helps him give info like that then it is very unethical and illegal, but can travel agents find about someone's ticket?
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:07 pm

Slash787 wrote:
As many of you have more knowledge regarding the ticking system or travel agents than me, I had a question, If I have booked a ticket to London or Paris or well anywhere through my Travel agent, can any other travel agent find out where I have booked my tickets by putting my name or my passport number? Can travel agents do this?

I am asking cause whenever I book a ticket to somewhere, somehow my cousin comes to know of it, they don't know who my travel agent is and mostly I book through the official websites or sites like Cleartrip/Makemytrip, but somehow my cousin comes to know where I am travelling to and in which month I am travelling to? how is that even possible? long time ago he had told me that his travel agent helps him to find about people, If his travel agent helps him give info like that then it is very unethical and illegal, but can travel agents find about someone's ticket?

I suspect that travel agent has rather good contacts with airlines that you fly with, and manually enquires everytime from the airline.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:37 pm

unrave wrote:
That is my point, cities like BOM have multiple options, unlike Tier 2 cities


No one disagrees with you. All people, including me, are trying to point out is that there are situations when connecting in BOM and DEL can work for some pax. It could be because of overall flight duration, the flight timings themselves, FF programs, a preference to connect in a city where you are comfortable with the culture or (and I know you disagree from our previous posts) connecting in a smaller terminal like BOM which can sometimes be easier than other airports. That's really it. And again I said some pax and in some situations. And yes people should have choice. What people don't have today is a vibrant Indian hub to connect in.
Your comment below:
Qatar has signed an open skies agreement with the EU. This means both of IndiGo's codeshare partners - TK and QR - have unlimited access to the EU. Jet's "hub" and BOM doesn't seem that formidable now.
Really confused me. What does QR's EU network have to do with a 9W BOM hub? Indigo's long term strategy is not to just fly India-DOH. They want to fly long haul (and I hope they do - I am pro Jet, Spice, Indigo, Vistara long haul - very pro and from tier 1 and tier 2 cities). I am not pro having India only connected properly to the ME and/or SIN. How does that help India's economy? Plus Indigo are a LCC connecting to a FSC (so many issues). I have to say, it is like you are just looking for things. Rooting against BOM/DEL/BLR or which ever Indian city should become a hub. Having ME3 connectivity and and Indian hub are not mutually exclusive things. My guess is no one is AMD will celebrate Indigo flying DOH-AMD. They would rather have a AMD-LGW flight by Indigo.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:44 pm

^ Certain users on here do not care if Indian hubs/airlines or it's economy are benefited or not. They just want to connect at a phoren hub at any cost, because for them anything phoren is good, even if it's 12hr+ layovers. And more so, they are desperate to have an int'l flight land at their city's airstrip, whichever airline to wherever foreign city it may be.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:51 pm

avier wrote:
^ Certain users on here do not care if Indian hubs/airlines are benefited or not. They just want to connect at a phoren hub, because for them anything phoren is good, even if it's 12hr+ layovers.


Customers don't care about the nationality of a product/service, they only care if it is beneficial to them. Applicable to the mobiles we carry, the cars we drive, the brands we wear and the airline/hubs we travel.

We do not buy Micromax and boycott Samsung just because the former is "Indian" and the latter isn't. Why do we have to patronise an inferior travel experience just because it is "Indian"?
Last edited by unrave on Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:01 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
How does that help India's economy? Plus Indigo are a LCC connecting to a FSC (so many issues). I have to say, it is like you are just looking for things. Rooting against BOM/DEL/BLR or which ever Indian city should become a hub. Having ME3 connectivity and and Indian hub are not mutually exclusive things. My guess is no one is AMD will celebrate Indigo flying DOH-AMD. They would rather have a AMD-LGW flight by Indigo.

QR flies 8x daily to BKK bringing travellers from across the western world to Thailand. If the Thai government goes all nationalistic and restricts rights to foreign airlines so as to protect TG, the ultimate loser will be the Thai tourism industry and the larger economy. Indian economy would benefit when more people and goods travel to/from India, irrespective of the nationality of the airline carrying them.

I am not rooting against an Indian hub. Indian airports are not designed to cater to large numbers of connecting pax. They can barely meet their O&D demands. And the less said about our FSC, the better.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:09 pm

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
^ Certain users on here do not care if Indian hubs/airlines are benefited or not. They just want to connect at a phoren hub, because for them anything phoren is good, even if it's 12hr+ layovers.


Yes, customers don't care about the nationality of a product/service, they only care if it is beneficial to them. Applicable to the mobiles we carry, the cars we drive, the brands we wear and the airline/hubs we travel.

We do not buy Micromax and boycott Samsung just because the former is "Indian" and the latter isn't. Why do we have to patronise an inferior travel experience just because it is "Indian"?


9W/AF/DL/EY through new world class integrated Terminals of BOM/DEL/ BLR along with their partner airlines hubs of AMS/CDG/AUH - all equates to Inferior Travel Experience?

But if it's 6E , a bare bones Indian LCC flying to DOH or even on the long flight to Istanbul from tier 2 cities, becomes suddenly very superior? Really? The only thing superior would be QRs product on their flights or TK's.
In a desperate attempt to defend your views, don't make select Indian things as Inferior!

9W's product would be a well preferred product by ANY Indian traveller flying Intl, even if it means connecting at it's hubs, than the LCC product of 6E.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:21 pm

avier wrote:

9W/AF/DL/EY through new world class integrated Terminals of BOM/DEL/ BLR along with their partner airlines hubs of AMS/CDG/AUH - all equates to Inferior Travel Experience?

But if it's 6E , a bare bones Indian LCC flying to DOH or even on the long flight to Istanbul from tier 2 cities, becomes suddenly very superior? Really? The only thing superior would be QRs product on their flights or TK's.
In a desperate attempt to defend your views, don't make select Indian things as Inferior!

9W's product would be a well preferred product by ANY Indian traveller flying Intl, even if it means connecting at it's hubs, than the LCC product of 6E.


The subject of discussion is connecting at a hub abroad vs connecting at an Indian airport for arrival at aTier 2 Indian city. There is no doubt that medium haul economy travel in Jet is vastly superior to a LCC. But that is not what the argument is about.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
avier
Posts: 431
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:30 pm

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:

9W/AF/DL/EY through new world class integrated Terminals of BOM/DEL/ BLR along with their partner airlines hubs of AMS/CDG/AUH - all equates to Inferior Travel Experience?

But if it's 6E , a bare bones Indian LCC flying to DOH or even on the long flight to Istanbul from tier 2 cities, becomes suddenly very superior? Really? The only thing superior would be QRs product on their flights or TK's.
In a desperate attempt to defend your views, don't make select Indian things as Inferior!

9W's product would be a well preferred product by ANY Indian traveller flying Intl, even if it means connecting at it's hubs, than the LCC product of 6E.


The subject of discussion is connecting at a hub abroad vs connecting at an Indian airport for arrival at aTier 2 Indian city. There is no doubt that medium haul economy travel in Jet is vastly superior to a LCC. But that is not what the argument is about.


And as was pointed on the first line itself, there isn't something so "inferior" about connecting at those well designed Integrated Terminals of those Indian Hubs.

If it's your personal preference to not connect at those Indian airports, do not assume every Tier 2 resident resonates with your views.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 pm

avier wrote:

And as was pointed on the first line itself, there isn't something so "inferior" about connecting at those well designed Integrated Terminals of those Indian Hubs.

If it's your personal preference to not connect at those Indian airports, do not assume every Tier 2 resident resonates with your views.


And I have clearly spelt out previously in this thread as to why connecting at Indian airports is inferior. I do not remember claiming anywhere that every Tier 2 resident agrees with me. Are you sure you aren't hallucinating?
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 pm

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
^ Certain users on here do not care if Indian hubs/airlines are benefited or not. They just want to connect at a phoren hub, because for them anything phoren is good, even if it's 12hr+ layovers.


Customers don't care about the nationality of a product/service, they only care if it is beneficial to them. Applicable to the mobiles we carry, the cars we drive, the brands we wear and the airline/hubs we travel.

We do not buy Micromax and boycott Samsung just because the former is "Indian" and the latter isn't. Why do we have to patronise an inferior travel experience just because it is "Indian"?


This is more about the 2nd point. Xiaomi is more Indian than Micromax ever was, since all of its devices are assembled in India. Micromax used to import completed devices from China. The same is true for Samsung and almost every major mobile company now.

I would be just fine if gulf carriers become interested in developing hubs inside India and flying their own metal out of India, rather than carrying Indians to gulf.
 
hohd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm

Clearing immigration and customs at BOM has become much better, but changing terminals is much more of pain. So if 9W offers more frequencies to second tier cities, they can offer better connections. However 9W is generally on the high side price wise so many end up choosing other routes.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:43 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I would be just fine if gulf carriers become interested in developing hubs inside India and flying their own metal out of India, rather than carrying Indians to gulf.

How would Gulf carriers develop hubs in India?
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:45 pm

hohd wrote:
Clearing immigration and customs at BOM has become much better, but changing terminals is much more of pain. So if 9W offers more frequencies to second tier cities, they can offer better connections. However 9W is generally on the high side price wise so many end up choosing other routes.

When I fly international out of BOM I have to budget 1-1.5 hours for immigration and customs. When I fly out of CJB the same thing takes me 10-15 minutes.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:51 pm

unrave wrote:

And I have clearly spelt out previously in this thread as to why connecting at Indian airports is inferior. I do not remember claiming anywhere that every Tier 2 resident agrees with me. Are you sure you aren't hallucinating?


And I have clearly spelt out many times previously in this thread as to why connecting at Phoren airports like DOH isn't necessarily superior compared to Indian airports.
You might not have explicitly stated that for every resident, but you have implied that in some way.

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
Yeah , even if the layover time at DOH is 12hrs, it's a no brainer. Right?

Layover time is just one factor that decides the choice of one airline over another. If the flight is cheaper by even a few thousand rupees, Indian VFR traffic will not mind spending 12 hours in DOH. Fliers from non metros hate connecting at BOM/DEL.


I'm sure you weren't referring to all these fliers as "you" alone.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:55 pm

unrave wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I would be just fine if gulf carriers become interested in developing hubs inside India and flying their own metal out of India, rather than carrying Indians to gulf.

How would Gulf carriers develop hubs in India?

Not directly but what they can do is invest in Indian airlines and/or have new startups here. For example, GoAir is on sale. I see a opportunity for gulf carriers there.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:12 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
This means both of IndiGo's codeshare partners - TK and QR - have unlimited access to the EU. .


A couple of minor connections

Qatar is not Indigo's partner. Once AAB experiences the world-class service on 6E will never sign the agreement. This is the guy who rejects planes for bad carpet. Imagine transferring your loyal premium passengers from Q-Suite to ultra-slim, no IFE, BoB product. Not going to happen. He may invest in 6E, different story.

TK-6E partnership is an opportunistic marriage at best. TK wants someone who will get them more bilaterals in India. Can anyone confirm TK codes on 6E (or) 6E codes on TK? As soon as TK realizes 6E is trashing their yields agreement will go into cold storage.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 565
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:16 pm

unrave wrote:
hohd wrote:
Clearing immigration and customs at BOM has become much better, but changing terminals is much more of pain. So if 9W offers more frequencies to second tier cities, they can offer better connections. However 9W is generally on the high side price wise so many end up choosing other routes.

When I fly international out of BOM I have to budget 1-1.5 hours for immigration and customs. When I fly out of CJB the same thing takes me 10-15 minutes.


I don't get your point. Ok so you have options. You still need to budget 2 hours or more to connect through DOH, AUH, CDG or where ever. So are you really saving that much? Also you see Jet staff everywhere at BOM calling out connecting pax to help if you have a tight connection. So what is the issue? I get you have a preference and respect that. But to call one a horrible experience (BOM) and another a gold standard (DOH) is IMHO not right (personally I think BOM is a much better airport than DOH/DXB or AUH). But in the end connect where you want. As I mentioned before, connecting in BOM for a J pax is really easy (there are J specific lines at both arrivals and departures that many major hubs don't even have). So even if you feel Y pax are suffering, J pax are not (and J pax ultimately drive the profitability). Oh and btw if you can deplane from a wide body while sitting in Y, go through immigration, collect bags and go through customs in 10-15 min, good for you. Even at JFK where I many times am first off the plane, have no checked bags, walk faster than almost anyone and have global entry (so just using a machine for immigration), I can't make it out in under 30 min.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

A couple of minor connections

Qatar is not Indigo's partner. Once AAB experiences the world-class service on 6E will never sign the agreement. This is the guy who rejects planes for bad carpet. Imagine transferring your loyal premium passengers from Q-Suite to ultra-slim, no IFE, BoB product.


Riiight. A business class traveller connecting to economy class. We're definitely comparing apples and apples here.
So all news outlets in India imagined the story of TK and 6E signing a codeshare agreement then.
Last edited by unrave on Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 565
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:23 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
This means both of IndiGo's codeshare partners - TK and QR - have unlimited access to the EU. .


A couple of minor connections

Qatar is not Indigo's partner. Once AAB experiences the world-class service on 6E will never sign the agreement. This is the guy who rejects planes for bad carpet. Imagine transferring your loyal premium passengers from Q-Suite to ultra-slim, no IFE, BoB product. Not going to happen. He may invest in 6E, different story.

TK-6E partnership is an opportunistic marriage at best. TK wants someone who will get them more bilaterals in India. Can anyone confirm TK codes on 6E (or) 6E codes on TK? As soon as TK realizes 6E is trashing their yields agreement will go into cold storage.


I totally agree with you dtw2hyd. I think the unrave's quote is misattributed to me. No issue. Just pointing it out :)
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:31 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I don't get your point. Ok so you have options. You still need to budget 2 hours or more to connect through DOH, AUH, CDG or where ever. So are you really saving that much? Also you see Jet staff everywhere at BOM calling out connecting pax to help if you have a tight connection. So what is the issue? I get you have a preference and respect that. But to call one a horrible experience (BOM) and another a gold standard (DOH) is IMHO not right (personally I think BOM is a much better airport than DOH/DXB or AUH). But in the end connect where you want. As I mentioned before, connecting in BOM for a J pax is really easy (there are J specific lines at both arrivals and departures that many major hubs don't even have). So even if you feel Y pax are suffering, J pax are not (and J pax ultimately drive the profitability). Oh and btw if you can deplane from a wide body while sitting in Y, go through immigration, collect bags and go through customs in 10-15 min, good for you. Even at JFK where I many times am first off the plane, have no checked bags, walk faster than almost anyone and have global entry (so just using a machine for immigration), I can't make it out in under 30 min.

I can't speak for J pax. I am unlikely to fly J for several years, but I fly Y often enough to know the difference.
My 10-15 min did not include time to disembark, but believe it or not, I have landed at CJB on MI456 at 22.10 and stepped out of the airport by 22.30. The joys of flying to small airports.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
binayak
Posts: 789
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
This means both of IndiGo's codeshare partners - TK and QR - have unlimited access to the EU. .


A couple of minor connections

Qatar is not Indigo's partner. Once AAB experiences the world-class service on 6E will never sign the agreement. This is the guy who rejects planes for bad carpet. Imagine transferring your loyal premium passengers from Q-Suite to ultra-slim, no IFE, BoB product. Not going to happen. He may invest in 6E, different story.
.


QR already interline with 9W . I've seen few flights on QR website which are operated by jet.
I think even EK does.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
devmapper
Posts: 194
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:11 pm

anshabhi wrote:
unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
^ Certain users on here do not care if Indian hubs/airlines are benefited or not. They just want to connect at a phoren hub, because for them anything phoren is good, even if it's 12hr+ layovers.


Customers don't care about the nationality of a product/service, they only care if it is beneficial to them. Applicable to the mobiles we carry, the cars we drive, the brands we wear and the airline/hubs we travel.

We do not buy Micromax and boycott Samsung just because the former is "Indian" and the latter isn't. Why do we have to patronise an inferior travel experience just because it is "Indian"?


This is more about the 2nd point. Xiaomi is more Indian than Micromax ever was, since all of its devices are assembled in India. Micromax used to import completed devices from China. The same is true for Samsung and almost every major mobile company now.

I would be just fine if gulf carriers become interested in developing hubs inside India and flying their own metal out of India, rather than carrying Indians to gulf.

Air travel is not consumer goods, there is a fair bit of human touch involved in the experience. Some people are more comfortable avoiding the human touch provided at DEL and BOM airports. That's fine. Some other people are more comfortable with the slightly awkward levels of human touch at those two airports, that too is fine. What irritates me is the preconceived notions of quality based on national origin (or lack thereof). To simplify this to the cell phone example, there is a significant number of people who avoid Micromax just because of its Indian origin, even if they do not have the wherewithal to afford a Samsung.

I dislike the difference in experience afforded to Western expats vs South Asian expats transiting via the ME3 airports, which is why I go out of my way to avoid patronizing them.
 
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chinmay17shetye
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:41 pm

I think by now it is very clear that the Indian market prefers price over anything - specifically the Tier 2 market. So 1/2 stops is really not a big deal unless you're flying out of a major city like BOM where people might favor convenience over price.


@avier you are only looking at the raw time which is very incorrect when it comes to connections. I have a few points that you should consider


- 2 stops equals 2x of getting out of an aircraft, worrying about baggage, rushing to a gate if it is a short layover, etc. Doing all of this twice can be really exhausting for a passenger. It takes a lot of effort and hence convenience immediately goes down the drain.

- Most 2 stop connections are Initial Short haul - Hub to Hub LH/ULH - Final Short haul. Now compared to a stopover like IST which is midway and has 2 medium haul flights, you get to take a break halfway through the journey which can be very convenient. (Although you can argue that it is a matter of personal preference)

- Indian Hubs are running dangerously over capacity. Specifically BOM and maybe DEL too.The existing slots cant fulfill the demand of O&D passengers and adding extra connecting passengers to that is just alleviating the issue at hand. The only solution is to move the hub out of India until we have better infrastructure to support our existing market growth.
Forcing extra connecting passengers onto our hubs is only going to increase fares overall and in turn slow the growth rate.

- Most European departures from BOM and DEL are at very odd hours. You have to sacrifice your sleep or waste an entire workday in most cases. (I'm not saying one stop options are time perfect either. Just that you don't have to switch airplanes twice where you're almost a zombie)

- I agree with what @unrave mentioned about Mumbai. I have gone through Mumbai numerous times and believe me standing in that mile long immigration line is not as easy as it seems in theory. You will curse yourself continuously for taking a flight from BOM. And this is not an exaggeration. If you are a frequent traveler, you would NEVER want to transit through BOM. Sure the airport is pretty but honestly that's just eye candy.
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