Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
unrave wrote:These are the first ever flights between airports within Kerala
bostrv wrote:Kingfisher used to fly a TRV-COK-CCJ-IXE-GOI flight - I am not sure about the CCJ stop though.
avier wrote:unrave wrote:These are the first ever flights between airports within Kerala
How so? There have always been intrastate flights in Kerala between COK-TRV, 6E currently has them too on their 320's. And AIX operates still some too I believe, even from CCJ.
unrave wrote:Between CNN and airports within Kerala.
avier wrote:unrave wrote:Between CNN and airports within Kerala.
CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.
unrave wrote:avier wrote:unrave wrote:Between CNN and airports within Kerala.
CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.
No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India
avier wrote:unrave wrote:avier wrote:
CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.
No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India
That's true for the northern part of the country, but Southern states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have always had decent intrastate flights, even in good old days of IC , so it's not really worth mentioning. It does sound lame (no offense).
It would exciting to hear that in say Gujarat or Assam.
avier wrote:unrave wrote:avier wrote:
CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.
No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India
That's true for the northern part of the country, but Southern states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have always had decent intrastate flights, even in good old days of IC , so it's not really worth mentioning. It does sound lame (no offense).
It would exciting to hear that in say Gujarat or Assam.
VTCIE wrote:
Gujarat and Rajasthan have intra-state (if not inter-state) operations in the form of Supreme Airlines' 9-seater aircraft. As for Assam, SG's upcoming seaplanes will lead to a rise in the number of intra-state flights along the Brahmaputra.
That said, I'd like to see a PBD-JGA or BHJ-RAJ route some day. Gujjus might want to fly from Porbandar to Jamnagar instead of taking the bus or train. By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.
VTCIE wrote:By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.
VTORD wrote:If AI couldn't utilize the seat entitlement, that's AI's problem.
VTORD wrote:From the ET article:
Investigation has revealed that discussions were held between India and UAE separately for Dubai, Sharjah, Abu Dhabi and Ras-al-Khaima.
So this statement implies that prior to that there was only one BASA with UAE and a policy change was made specifically for this. Is the point about the BASA true? That the separate one came in to effect only after 2008-09?
After the said meetings, the remand paper says, there was “increase in the seat entitlements for both the contracting countries and increase in points of call for foreign carriers”. It adds “the foreign carriers obtained more points of call each time causing loss to Air India (AI)”. Further, it (AI) could not utilise its seat entitlement in the optimum capacity, it adds.
This seems a little misleading at best. He's making it sound as if the seat increase was only given to the foreign carrier. If AI couldn't utilize the seat entitlement, that's AI's problem. AFAIK, 9W and AI would be the only two airlines flying to UAE from India. GoAir, Indigo, SpiceJet and Kingfisher wouldn't have been eligible to fly international in 2008-2009.
unrave wrote:PM to lay foundation stone for Jewar airport on 25FEB19.
edealinfo wrote:"ED special prosecutor Davinder Pal Singh said Talwar’s custody is needed to ascertain his role in “association with the bilateral air service talks and the inroads made by him to influence the decisions”. He added “role of key persons and their modus operandi” needs to be extracted from Talwar. He claimed that the agency has received “voluminous incriminating material” against Talwar."
So, how do they intend to "extract" the information from Talwar? Does India allow torture or intimidation? If not, Talwar could choose to remain silent.
Second, why do Indian newspapers always refer to "modus operandi" when they can simply say "method" or "process" or "procedure"
anshabhi wrote:I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms
anshabhi wrote:Internal workings of an investigative agency remain top secrets
edealinfo wrote:anshabhi wrote:I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms
So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.
Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.
anshabhi wrote:edealinfo wrote:anshabhi wrote:I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms
So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.
Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.
The culprits must be punished.
Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.
lightsaber wrote:anshabhi wrote:edealinfo wrote:
So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.
Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.
The culprits must be punished.
Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.
You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Please also consider a bilateral is more than aviation. India benefits with other trade with the mid-East. The countries on the other side won't agree to the punitive measures. Legally, it is for each country to ensure its own diplomats are not bribed.
As already noted, to the UAE, both sides are benefitting as the rights are maxed out. What is desired right now is Dubai prime time slots. Those wouldn't be traded for for service to a random UAE city. Ironically, little if any damage was done by the bribes.
If stringent restrictions were placed on transfer passengers, Dubai would invoke their bilateral rights to revert to the previous bilateral.
What needs to happen is a fair expanded bilateral be drawn up.
Lightsaber
lightsaber wrote:You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Lightsaber
lightsaber wrote:anshabhi wrote:edealinfo wrote:
So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.
Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.
The culprits must be punished.
Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.
You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Please also consider a bilateral is more than aviation. India benefits with other trade with the mid-East. The countries on the other side won't agree to the punitive measures. Legally, it is for each country to ensure its own diplomats are not bribed.
As already noted, to the UAE, both sides are benefitting as the rights are maxed out. What is desired right now is Dubai prime time slots. Those wouldn't be traded for for service to a random UAE city. Ironically, little if any damage was done by the bribes.
If stringent restrictions were placed on transfer passengers, Dubai would invoke their bilateral rights to revert to the previous bilateral.
What needs to happen is a fair expanded bilateral be drawn up.
Lightsaber
edealinfo wrote:lightsaber wrote:You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Lightsaber
I don't think this is true. US, UK etc., don't sign individual treaties for the sheikdoms within the UAE; it is for the country as a whole. In my opinion, the UAE wants India to negotiate for rights to individual states, rather than the whole, in an attempt to "Divide and Rule" making it more favorable from their standpoint.
Here are my suggestions for a short term solution:
1) Freeze existing bilateral rights for 3 years or until the ratio of Origin to Destination (O & D) to transfer traffic increases to X%. Freezing capacity will also improve the margins for existing Indian carriers.
2) Given the freeze, provide a special dispensation -- Kannur Airport should be open skies so that Malayalis (who form the bulk of the Indian workforce in the UAE) can return home to their spanking new airport in an airline of their choice.
3) When the new Goa airport is operationalized, that airport should also come under open skies to encourage carriers to bring passengers to what is largely a pure tourist destination. Also, the new Amaravati airport (Hyderabad state) should get open skies to help out a new State capital.
4) For #2 and #3 to be effective, the UAE carriers must allow consolidation of all bi-lateral traffic rights among the sheikdoms so that Indian carriers can fly to any UAE airport of their choice using the existing bilateral rights (maybe this will lead to some India - AUH flights being recast to India - DXB flights, which are more profitable.)
5) The open skies under #2 and #3 should be extended to all countries in the world (including Qatar, Oman, etc). This will serve as a demonstration program of whether open skies is beneficial to a host country and a study should be undertaken to test that theory.
dtw2hyd wrote:I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.
dtw2hyd wrote:I sincerely doubt India can restrict connecting traffic percentage. Emirates connecting traffic is more than 66% and QR close to 81%. These percentages are increasing with BASA cap.
UAE-India BASA is 180,000/week seats, UAE-US open skies is 50,000/week. I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.
unrave wrote:A businessman from a village near Coimbatore takes 120 seniors from village on their maiden flight journey
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... atsApp.com
avier wrote:VTCIE wrote:
Gujarat and Rajasthan have intra-state (if not inter-state) operations in the form of Supreme Airlines' 9-seater aircraft. As for Assam, SG's upcoming seaplanes will lead to a rise in the number of intra-state flights along the Brahmaputra.
That said, I'd like to see a PBD-JGA or BHJ-RAJ route some day. Gujjus might want to fly from Porbandar to Jamnagar instead of taking the bus or train. By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.
Gujarat doesn't have any regular intrastate flights, not even from the one you mentioned of Supreme. It's funny Gujarat boasts of the most number of operational airports (i.e receiving some commercial flights from major airlines), but on the other hand they don't connect to each other within the state. Heck, not even to AMD (apart from irregular services of Trujets UDAN service to Porbander). I believe Deccan or Air Odisha had such plans, but they seem like they are not even operating properly from anywhere.
Regarding SG's seaplane ops, there's no recent word of it after that one time before when they made all that noise of getting them. Have they even finalized the orders for the same(?).
JOYA380B747 wrote:A new Private jet terminal is in the works at DEL, and is scheduled to start before this year's election month. As per this article, it is situated next to taxiway Tango north of Rwy 29 which means it is coming up somewhere close to the Centaur hotel. Has anybody got more details on this?
https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi-ne ... e2pnN.html
CaliguyNYC wrote:dtw2hyd wrote:I sincerely doubt India can restrict connecting traffic percentage. Emirates connecting traffic is more than 66% and QR close to 81%. These percentages are increasing with BASA cap.
UAE-India BASA is 180,000/week seats, UAE-US open skies is 50,000/week. I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.
I’m shocked the percentages are increasing given the seat cap. I would think at some point the pressure for seats to DXB would mean EK can make more money selling India-DXB then India-DXB-US. I guess EK is under even greater pressure to fill their global network. Hopefully fares india-DXB go up and Indian carriers make money (they fares usually seem cheap to me)
unrave wrote:This is despite a virtual cap on bilaterals since 2014. Not a single seat has been granted to ME3 and SQ during the present regime.
edealinfo wrote:
What's the Government's beef with Singapore???? Maybe it is because Singapore has open skies to many Indian 2nd tier cities?
vadodara wrote:
Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.
lightsaber wrote:US and UK have open skies and free trade agreements. I agree that could be done India/UAE as a whole.
The bilateral rights have been frozen since 2007. If a mutually beneficial deal can be struck the bilateral will be amended, otherwise no. Since Dubai can veto anything not in it's favor, setting a cap on transfers is unlikely.
If there is a two way open skies, that would be great. However, Dubai was founded as a Wayport. They will resist a transfer cap.Until then, the two Emirates with veto (Dubai and Abu Dhabi) would use it. The UK/US deals we're good for all the city states, so all agreed to be bound.
Has everyone read Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive Tree?". If not, simple is trade treaties look forward. Sides demanding payback for prior offenses don't happen.
All UAE bilaterals are full. Both sides. So we'll see. What Indian carriers want mostly is access to DXB. EK/Dubai knows this and are negotiating accordingly.
Since Dubai wants air service rights more than anything, they'll use that veto to shape negotiations. This is why India had to negotiate individually, Abu Dhabi and Dubai we're vetoing anything they each didn't like.
Now the idea of individual airports becoming freeports would appeal. The only question is DXB slots (every other UAE airport is open). I'm sure DWC could be ruled a Freeport.
Lightsaber
binayak wrote:vadodara wrote:
Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.
The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)
devmapper wrote:binayak wrote:vadodara wrote:
Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.
The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)
Is there a difference in mindset for Indians living on the (US) West Coast vs the East Coast? Perhaps the pattern of immigration could point to why AI's DEL-SFO flight is profitable enough for AI to fly more than daily frequencies while EWR remains a problem child, .
devmapper wrote:binayak wrote:vadodara wrote:
Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.
The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)
Is there a difference in mindset for Indians living on the (US) West Coast vs the East Coast? Perhaps the pattern of immigration could point to why AI's DEL-SFO flight is profitable enough for AI to fly more than daily frequencies while EWR remains a problem child, and IAD presumably has never been profitable enough for AI to consider increasing frequencies to daily. I'm assuming the ORD and JFK flights, while not being profitable are able to cover their costs due to some connecting traffic.
It's a shame we'd never know what a UA-AI codeshare could have achieved. I think in 15-20 years, by the time the US-India travel market is as well developed as the US-China market is currently, either UA, or more likely AI is going to cease existence.
binayak wrote:EWR India for UA has been doing quite well and I'm sure the 77W has been put because of good connections at BOM end.
My main motto is to prove that people actually "like " to connect through DEL /BOM as much as they like to do via Middle East.
anshabhi wrote:West coast, and more specifically California has India like weather and surely it's among the top choices for Indians any day. Also, most tech is centered around west coast while east coast is more about business,and Indians in US are majorly techies