slcdeltarumd11
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UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:54 pm

Funny how competition works. Now United has announced its going for Saturday service from Burlington VT to Denver CO! A market they seemed to have no interest in , all of a sudden we go from zero airlines to 2!

It does compliment frontier who will not fly the route on Saturdays. I am thinking United plans to run Frontier off the route if the planes seem doable on Saturdays. Winter will be interesting to watch!

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/2nd-airl ... n/26046909

Airbus A320
Times are pretty similar to Froniter.

I wonder who will do the catering for United out of BTV. They have F meal flights currently.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:00 pm

UA must figure it will take next to nothing to drive Frontier off. After all, Frontier is a very fickle airline that doesn't hesitate a minute when ditching a route.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:28 pm

And an A320 at that! I guess they just can't get a CRJ to fly that far.
 
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Runway28L
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:29 pm

Not really surprising. Didn’t Kirby vocally go after F9 at DEN not too long ago?
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B595
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:40 pm

The plot thickens..... exciting.

Worst-case is UA runs F9 off, then drops the route, leaving BTV back at square one. I hope the market responds and there ends up being room for both.
 
Brandon757
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:42 pm

UA pulling an AA here.
 
birdbrainz
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:44 pm

I don't think range for a CRJ-700 is an issue for the route, as TUS-IAD is 300 mi longer.

I'm betting it's either aircraft availability, or matching F9 and not giving customers a reason to choose F9.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
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intotheair
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:55 pm

This should really help with connectivity. I’ve been meaning to visit a friend in BTV for a while, but it’s such a pain to get there from the west coast. It looks almost easier and/or cheaper to just go to YUL and drive down.
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MIflyer12
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:57 pm

This should be great for fares, for as long as F9 lasts on the route.
 
btvflyer1
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:03 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
And an A320 at that! I guess they just can't get a CRJ to fly that far.


It's becoming more common for BTV to see mainline jets. UA already flies 737-800s, A319s, and A320s to and from EWR and ORD, and DL flies A319s on BTV-ATL. Still seeing CRJs on routes such as BTV-IAD, BTV-LGA, BTV-JFK, and BTV-PHL, but given the shorter distance and the lower passenger demand for these routes (generally connecting), I see no reason for UA, DL, AA, B6 to operate bigger planes on these routes.

Excited for BTV-DEN to start up for F9 and UA - when was the last time BTV got two new routes in a week?
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azstar
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:04 pm

birdbrainz wrote:
I don't think range for a CRJ-700 is an issue for the route, as TUS-IAD is 300 mi longer.



No one flies TUS-IAD nonstop.
 
Flyer732
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:04 pm

Contrary to popular belief, United doesn't just see F9's press release and say "oh me too" this route has been being planned for a little while now. And according to Frontier's press release, unless they had an error, their DEN service is not seasonal, which UA's is. The market for the flight is there, and will likely have some pretty good draw, I cannot tell you how many people I see connecting in the NY or DCA area, to another hub like DEN/PHX/DFW and then onto another destination. An option like DEN will make one stop travel to a lot of markets possible.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:07 pm

This is a friendly reminder from United to Frontier about who is top dog in Denver. Not a predatory add or overly defensive reaction. Just like getting close to a dog who doesn’t want you close, just a grumble and a show of teeth.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
santi319
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:34 pm

I never undestood how can people applaud and like this sort of behavior. We all know if F9 pulls out, UA will too and eventually the city has no service because one airline doesn’t want other airlines to succeed and instead wants them all to connect at its hubs.

Its kinda sad really.
 
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longhauler
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:40 pm

B595 wrote:

Worst-case is UA runs F9 off, then drops the route, leaving BTV back at square one.


That's the sad part of this so-called "competition".

UAL doesn't want anyone else on the non-stop market and after they pull out, they don't want you (the passenger) flying that route either.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:48 pm

If UA drives F9 off the route, UA should be required to serve the market for 12 months or 2 seasons after F9 leaves.
 
Emperortim21
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:58 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
If UA drives F9 off the route, UA should be required to serve the market for 12 months or 2 seasons after F9 leaves.


Required by who? City of Denver? City of Burlington? State of Colorado? State of Vermont? US Gov?
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:45 pm

Emperortim21 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
If UA drives F9 off the route, UA should be required to serve the market for 12 months or 2 seasons after F9 leaves.


Required by who? City of Denver? City of Burlington? State of Colorado? State of Vermont? US Gov?

DOT and DOJ yes. In fact this rule was explored back in the mid/late 1990s when the big airlines were engaged in blatantly predatory behavior against Reno Air, Western Pacific and Vanguard.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:58 pm

I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:01 am

birdbrainz wrote:
I don't think range for a CRJ-700 is an issue for the route, as TUS-IAD is 300 mi longer.

I'm betting it's either aircraft availability, or matching F9 and not giving customers a reason to choose F9.


Don't forget that DEN isn't at sea level.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:02 am

Flyer732 wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, United doesn't just see F9's press release and say "oh me too" this route has been being planned for a little while now.


I actually worked at SJC when AS and UA announced SJC-EWR. UA was already in talks to restart SJC-ORD and those were moving quite well. AS announced SJC-EWR, and suddenly, UA was very interested in serving the route as well. Two weeks later, UA announced SJC-ORD/EWR. Domestic stuff can happen very quickly. International stuff is usually much more drawn out.
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BTVB6Flyer
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:22 am

I have to go to VT this summer and currently CLT and now DEN only active routes from BTV that I'm missing, sans the CVG, MSP of DL before the recession.

Going to trying to link back on F9 or UA and do a mini stop over in DEN on the way back to TPA. As I'm actually concerned one or both may not survive long term. The saving grace here is UA is only SAT. only and doesn't really offer much that will be of a disadvantage to F9 (hopefully).

It's really impressive to see that basically in the last year, UA has mainline at intermittent periods to all destinations from BTV. Wish they would just done IAH instead, but let's see where this goes for now.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:55 am

This gives me some hope...

.:rolls dice:.

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xjetflyer2001
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:49 am

I wish UA would decide to try DEN-BFM too then, fingers crossed
 
N649DL
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:02 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:14 am

N649DL wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.


Exactly how much skiing do you think happens in June when this seasonal service starts?
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
BTVB6Flyer
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:44 am

BTV and VT as a whole are very nature driven, just as so it DEN and Colorado. This isn't like BTV-IAH(or any other non-O&D city), the O&D for the market size is there and these will stimulate that.

Skiing and snowboarding are a niche, I would assume by and large those utilizing these flights are looking at DEN and BTV for summer. Traveling to other destinations from renowned ski destinations again is niche and doesn't make much sense and if it does money is not much of a matter for most.
 
ericm2031
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:09 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I wonder who will do the catering for United out of BTV. They have F meal flights currently.


They'll cater for the round trip in DEN
 
btvhopper
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:22 am

I remember during the F9 announcement either the Burlington Mayor or the airport director mentioned that there's also a lot of interest in DEN because "So many Vermonters have moved to Denver." The anecdote in the F9 news clip had an elderly retired woman who mentioned how much easier it will be now to visit her son, who moved to Denver. It's true, like many small-market cities we have a demographic crisis, with most college graduates heading to more urban areas--and especially Western cities like DEN, that have the combination of mountains/outdoor recreation along with the amenities and professional opportunities found in a major metropolitan area.

In other words they are a lot of reasons for the demand. But the brass tacks is that DEN is one of the most in-demand destinations for BTV-originating travelers. On top of that you have great connections at DEN to California cities as well as small-market airports in the inter-mountain west.
 
burnsie28
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:01 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

I wonder who will do the catering for United out of BTV. They have F meal flights currently.


It will likely be round trip catering from Denver.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 pm

I wonder if they will do the same thing out of SYR.
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Cointrin330
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:56 pm

The DNA of AA at work at UA. Nothing surprising here. UA will most likely drive F9 off the route and when it does, drop the service altogether.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:47 pm

N649DL wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.


Interesting. I never would have thought that people who live in Colorado would want to travel to Vermont to ski. I always thought people went to Colorado to ski, not the other way around
 
lavalampluva
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:57 pm

Which one will drop the route first? :?:
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32andBelow
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:18 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
N649DL wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.


Interesting. I never would have thought that people who live in Colorado would want to travel to Vermont to ski. I always thought people went to Colorado to ski, not the other way around

He has no idea what he’s talking about. You are correct no one from the west is going to go out of their way to ski the east.
 
birdbrainz
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:25 pm

azstar wrote:
birdbrainz wrote:
I don't think range for a CRJ-700 is an issue for the route, as TUS-IAD is 300 mi longer.



No one flies TUS-IAD nonstop.


Mesa (YV) 3231 TUS-IAD 1110a-454p CRJ-700.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
birdbrainz
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:30 pm

rnav2dlrey wrote:
birdbrainz wrote:
I don't think range for a CRJ-700 is an issue for the route, as TUS-IAD is 300 mi longer.

I'm betting it's either aircraft availability, or matching F9 and not giving customers a reason to choose F9.


Don't forget that DEN isn't at sea level.


True. On the other hand, Tuscon is at 2500 ft elevation, which is a lot lower, but not it's not like San Diego. It helps quite a bit that the flight is going eastbound, but we'd need someone schooled in CRJ7 ops to say if it's truly feasible.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
btvhopper
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Interesting. I never would have thought that people who live in Colorado would want to travel to Vermont to ski. I always thought people went to Colorado to ski, not the other way around


Vermont and Stowe (and Jay Peak) has by far the best skiing in the East (including Canada/Quebec), but I would agree that this service as well as the Frontier service are still targeting BTV-originating travelers who have a tendency to visit DEN (as well as in UA's case connect to both SFO and smaller intermountain airports like BZN that BTV sees surprisingly high O&D traffic for).

Vermont is the birthplace of the chairlift, of snowboarding and is the historical cradle of American skiing. Vermont has produced more ski/snowboard Olympians than any other state, despite a population of less than 700k. As a state, Vermont sees the second most "Skier days" in the country, behind Colorado, but ahead of California and Utah. The ski culture runs deeper in this state than any other state.
That said, this service is definitely targeting Vermonters trying to get to Colorado. Even when the skiing is better in Vermont than Colorado (and it sometimes is, depending on weather patterns) no Coloradoan will come to Vermont to ski--people in the Rocky Mountains are too snobby for that.
 
btvhopper
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:41 pm

32andBelow wrote:
He has no idea what he’s talking about. You are correct no one from the west is going to go out of their way to ski the east.


They would for ski racing and national competitions, which are often held in Vermont because the bulk of the US Ski Team and the talent pipeline still has a heavy Vermont presence (a the plurality of the athletes on the US Ski Team grew up in Vermont; not the USST itself, they're entirely based out of Salt Lake with a minor presence in Colorado Springs).

But those are very niche events and obviously won't ever generate sufficient demand.
 
Kno
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:50 pm

A lot of people travel between VT and Colorado including my family they are like minded places in many ways I wouldn’t be so sure the route will fail just yet.
 
Dominion301
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:01 pm

longhauler wrote:
B595 wrote:

Worst-case is UA runs F9 off, then drops the route, leaving BTV back at square one.


That's the sad part of this so-called "competition".

UAL doesn't want anyone else on the non-stop market and after they pull out, they don't want you (the passenger) flying that route either.


Yup I'd call it legacyitis that they're pretty much all guilty of doing...hate to say it, but AC has been known to do that too. WS that used to cry foul when they were the 'little guy', but now do so way more than AC in their quest to rid themselves of Flair.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:05 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
N649DL wrote:

For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.


Interesting. I never would have thought that people who live in Colorado would want to travel to Vermont to ski. I always thought people went to Colorado to ski, not the other way around

He has no idea what he’s talking about. You are correct no one from the west is going to go out of their way to ski the east.

Actually he knows exactly what he's talking about. Stowe is owned by Vail resorts which means people buy the Epic pass at their local resort and then go out West to ski in Colorado.

https://www.ski.com/epic-pass

Regardless, it's irrelevant as this is a summer seasonal market.
 
B737900ER
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:22 pm

N649DL wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.

If you live in Colorado why on earth would you go to Vermont to ski? That’s like living in NY and going to Chicago for pizza.
 
mjgbtv
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:43 pm

B737900ER wrote:
N649DL wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I am a little surprised they went with a 320, seems like a perfect EMB route to me.


For 1x weekly it's catering to ski and snowboard traffic which is actually a pretty smart move on their part.

Recall if you have "The Pass" for the winter season in CO, some packages allow for skiing in Stowe, VT (arguably one of the best mountains in the Northeast.)

If UAL pulls this off well, I wouldn't be surprised to see them start DEN-PWM seasonally in the summer as well.

If you live in Colorado why on earth would you go to Vermont to ski? That’s like living in NY and going to Chicago for pizza.


Maybe more like living in NY and going to Naples for pizza.
 
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ssteve
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:48 pm

B737900ER wrote:
If you live in Colorado why on earth would you go to Vermont to ski? That’s like living in NY and going to Chicago for pizza.


The EPIC and IKON pass dynamics will go the other way. Stowe and Sugarbush passholders will go to Vail and Aspen.
 
TigerFlyer
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:00 pm

This service seems ill conceived by UA. BTV has plenty of good connecting options heading West, via ORD on UA, as well as DTW (DL). PHL on AA, or JFK on B6 are not much of a detour. Ski traffic alone is not sufficient to justify this. F9 needs the nonstop to provide connectivity to its network; UA does not. This will be short lived. If UA is serious about deterring F9 they need to make it daily, or not bother with this competitive half-measure.
 
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longhauler
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:22 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Yup I'd call it legacyitis that they're pretty much all guilty of doing...hate to say it, but AC has been known to do that too. WS that used to cry foul when they were the 'little guy', but now do so way more than AC in their quest to rid themselves of Flair.


Interesting. Can you cite an example where AC has done this? Namely, force competition off of a route, then abandon the route. I honestly can not think of an example.

I am not familiar enough with UAL, but am curious about this new route. Perhaps, their network planners see more than us.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Blueknows
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:47 pm

Us flight is more competition on btv-den. They are looking for numbers before they add more. Let me correct all my naive posters here. UA in btv is handled by there contract subsidiary. The big planes are UA PLANES all other planes are not ua(commuteair/Skywest etc.) Delta is DGS and just sold and is not owned by delta anymore. American in BTV is operated by piedmont. This is AA subsidiary not mainline.
Please don’t confuse business with lifestyle. Not everyone who is from Burlington is into hiking/skiing and buying expensive passes to resorts. Ps Stowe is not the only ski resort in the state you alitest.
Top destination from BTV RSW/MCO/SFO. Sorry burst your crunchy bubble
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:51 pm

Perhaps they are aiming for cheap transborder folks to go via BTV this summer.
As for chairlifts, I believe (and per wiki) they started out west.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
ytib
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: UA responds to Frontier starting BTV-DEN, launches their own seasonal service

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:52 pm

What no one has mentioned on this "seasonal" service by United is the potential for cross-border traffic from the area south of Montreal, since BTV is 45 miles from the border. To me this is a greater potential than the summer ski traffic.

As of now this flight ends on Saturday 8/31, which could always get extended.
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Misc:142,CN1,CR2,CR7,DC8,DH2,DH8,D8Q,D10,D95,EM2,ER3,ER4,E70,100,J31,M11,M83,M88,M90,SF3

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