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readytotaxi
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Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46858249

The family returning from holiday were flying from Mahon in Menorca to Birmingham with TUI airlines.A "last minute" change of aircraft ment that there were not enough seats.
"The Civil Aviation Authority says while passengers are allowed to sit in crew seats under certain conditions, they must not be left unseated during any stage of the flight and are investigating the airline."
Glad there was no sudden turbulance.
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Noshow
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:17 am

Could passengers legally be carried on jump seats instead of their assigned ones? And where would the cabin crew sit for takeoff and landing then? They must man the exits.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 am

I don't believe this. No way an airline would carry more pax than they can offer seats to, feels like somebody is in desperate need for attention...
As for jumpseats, most aircraft have more jumpseats then needed, i.e. for extra crew on training etc, most of the time you have 1 or 2 jumpseats free, which could be used by pax in extraordinary situations, and I doubt this is one.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
pdp
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:33 am

TOGA10 wrote:
I don't believe this. No way an airline would carry more pax than they can offer seats to, feels like somebody is in desperate need for attention...
As for jumpseats, most aircraft have more jumpseats then needed, i.e. for extra crew on training etc, most of the time you have 1 or 2 jumpseats free, which could be used by pax in extraordinary situations, and I doubt this is one.


TUI claimed it was a last-minute equipment change, and for some reason this aircraft was missing half of a row! You can even see in the photos when they're sat at the back it seems that there is space, just no seats.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:34 am

TOGA10 wrote:
I don't believe this. No way an airline would carry more pax than they can offer seats to, feels like somebody is in desperate need for attention...
As for jumpseats, most aircraft have more jumpseats then needed, i.e. for extra crew on training etc, most of the time you have 1 or 2 jumpseats free, which could be used by pax in extraordinary situations, and I doubt this is one.


It’s been in the British press over the weekend. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... exist.html
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:43 am

SeaKing4 wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
I don't believe this. No way an airline would carry more pax than they can offer seats to, feels like somebody is in desperate need for attention...
As for jumpseats, most aircraft have more jumpseats then needed, i.e. for extra crew on training etc, most of the time you have 1 or 2 jumpseats free, which could be used by pax in extraordinary situations, and I doubt this is one.


It’s been in the British press over the weekend. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... exist.html

I'm sorry, it appears they were given seats (jumpseats) but had to leave them during the flight because of the cabin crew were doing the service. Didn't read that bit initially. Strange way of dealing with this by TUI, and I don't think the CAA are gonna be too nice about this. Why not book them on a next flight, or offer other people money or whatever to go onto a next flight. But wouldn't there have been jumpseats in the front of the plane, more out of the way of the cabin crew?
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:47 am

Lucky it was only from Menorca. Imagine sitting on the floor for the 9 hour drag from Orlando or somewhere else further afield.

Of course, it's still unlucky to board an aircraft and it turns out your actual physical seats have missed boarding.
 
trintocan
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:21 am

This is totally unacceptable. While airlines do have to swap aircraft at short notice for any of several reasons, they need to ensure that the replacement craft has sufficient seats to handle all of the booked passengers. If this is not possible then they need to book affected passengers (who should volunteer in the first instance) onto alternative flights or even airlines as the contract of carriage applies above all. The CAA will not be kind to them about this.

There is another issue which arises here. While plane swaps may occur on any route, if a route like LHR - JFK or LHR - FRA were involved then the sheer frequency of flights means that rebooking one or more people onto alternative flights (including other carriers) is relatively easy. MAH by contrast has a limited selection of flights to the UK and the BHX - MAH route in particular has few alternatives. If they had to be rebooked (bearing in mind that charter flights are generally fully-booked beforehand) they would likely have to be rerouted e.g. MAH - PMI - BHX or MAH - BCN - BHX or even MAH - BCN - BRS with a transfer to BHX. One wonders whether the company tried to avoid doing that but instead ended up creating a public relations nightmare.

Trintocan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:38 am

I have got to question why it's taken so many months for TUI to adequately deal with this situation - in all likelihood, had they just refunded the fares, nobody at the CAA would ever heard about this. Pretty big fail on all fronts.

Years ago I flew the domestic Nakchivan airbridge with Azerbaijan Airways. With high demand and local agents willing to accept the odd bribe, flights would often go out horrendously overloaded. I saw people sat on the floor, standing in the galleys and luggage stashed literally everywhere - made for a one and a half minute take off roll in the venerable Tu154.

Fortunately AZAL has improved a lot since those days.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
djvalume
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:46 am

Noshow wrote:
Could passengers legally be carried on jump seats instead of their assigned ones? And where would the cabin crew sit for takeoff and landing then? They must man the exits.


Actually yes. There would still be a seated CA between you and the door.

My wife and I flew on jumpseats on a LH 744 (FRA-MIA), but the only reason they accepted us was because I was crew and could prove it (company ID + license).

Once airborne we were asked to occupy the rear jumpseats by the crew rest area, but once a crew member went on rest we had to move again.

That's the beauty of stanby tickets on overbooked flights. I loved every minute of it... the wife not so much
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:55 am

The should not have been allowed to fly. In this day of social media and professional outrage, it’s better to just leave them behind rather than engineer their story and ruin your reputation. This simply isn’t allowed in my airline. At times when a seat breaks or we are a last minute aircraft swap we leave people behind and there’s nobody on any jumpseat. I feel bad for those left behind but I’d rather that than my employer’s reputation be dragged through the mud.
 
Noshow
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 am

There would still be a seated CA between you and the door.

Thanks. How does emergency oxygen work on jumpseats please? Do you have a mask falling down or do you need some extra instruction? I wonder if those passenger would know what to do?
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 pm

Noshow wrote:
There would still be a seated CA between you and the door.

Thanks. How does emergency oxygen work on jumpseats please? Do you have a mask falling down or do you need some extra instruction? I wonder if those passenger would know what to do?


All crew rests and toilets are fitted with the same mask setup.
 
by738
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:41 pm

jump seat use for overbooks, standbys and crew happens all the time, giving a bit more space for everyone and getting them home quickly without offloading seems reasonable. I dont get what all the fuss is about. Not perfect but not unsafe (everyone had a safe seat if needed and mobile 02) The main issue is why noone knew in advance of boarding
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:58 pm

Yeah you guys are screaming a lot about nothing.
The passengers had a seat for the flight phases requiring a seat belt to be worn.

If the aircraft is within its weights, within its certified exit limit, all belts are worn at phases requiring them, I don't see what is legally wrong.

An aircraft is the same as a car, insured for the number of seat + belt combinations available. I doubt the UK CAA is going to look at it at all.

If they put someone in the lavatory and called it a seat, it's a bit nastier, unless the WC is certified to the same standards as a regular seat and certain evacuation procedures are established.
If my memory is correct, the certification standards for crew seats exceed those for pax seats. They also have the better "Sparco" type belts. So no problem there imo.

If this is done as a routine procedure, it's a different story, but if the UK CAA had to deal with each such one-off occurrence, you could ground about any aircraft and flight.
If you give me 60 minutes to inspect a departing aircraft, between inconsistencies in the load sheet and missing screws somewhere on the airframe, I can ground you about any flight.
The CAA knows this, this is why maintenance audits start with random paperwork checks and are swiftly followed by a visit to a nice restaurant with the auditors...
People who never worked in aviation won't believe it but it's the reality.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:37 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
The should not have been allowed to fly. In this day of social media and professional outrage, it’s better to just leave them behind rather than engineer their story and ruin your reputation. This simply isn’t allowed in my airline. At times when a seat breaks or we are a last minute aircraft swap we leave people behind and there’s nobody on any jumpseat. I feel bad for those left behind but I’d rather that than my employer’s reputation be dragged through the mud.
It must be so nice living in the black-and-white world you inhabit.
TUI were in for a bad time whichever route they chose. Leaving passengers behind can do just as much damage to your employer's reputation. Just ask Sun Country.
"Sun Country passengers stranded in Mexico file a federal lawsuit."
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408921&p=20885963&hilit=sun+country#p20875349


Whether TUI made the right decision(s) in this case is a perfectly valid question.
The fact that they only offered £30 compensation shows their penny-pinching mind-set, and they deserve whatever comes for that alone.
If they had put a bit more effort (& money) into the problem to start with, they may well have dodged this bullet.
Even now they have only stumped up the cost of the flights. Overall, this may well prove far more costly than that.

They should have offered money or vouchers to encourage volunteers to come forward, prepared to accept a different/later flight.
In the event, it appears that using jump-seats is acceptable procedure, but TUI's further mistake was to serve food and other items that were stored behind those jump seats. The article states "Mr and Mrs Taylor had to go and sit on the floor".
Knowing how facts can get distorted, I don't necessarily take this absolutely at face value. I suspect the crew were effectively busy all around these jump seats, to the extent that Mr & Mrs Taylor felt crowded and uncomfortable, and maybe elected to sit on the floor. I can certainly see myself acting similarly in that situation, quietly suggesting that the crew offer free coffee and a sandwich at the very least, and looking forward to nice $$$voucher from TUI Head Office. If not, I would be holding my position in the jump seat, quite possibly stretching my legs out and making their life difficult. However, that kind of confrontation doesn't necessarily suit everybody.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
robsaw
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:54 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Yeah you guys are screaming a lot about nothing.
The passengers had a seat for the flight phases requiring a seat belt to be worn.

If the aircraft is within its weights, within its certified exit limit, all belts are worn at phases requiring them, I don't see what is legally wrong.

An aircraft is the same as a car, insured for the number of seat + belt combinations available. I doubt the UK CAA is going to look at it at all.

...

.


Aircraft regulations and insurance are in NO WAY comparable to a car.

"The Civil Aviation Authority says while passengers are allowed to sit in crew seats under certain conditions, they must not be left unseated during any stage of the flight and are investigating the airline."
 
c933103
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:30 pm

I recall reading a similar report about an airlines in Pakistan a while back and that constitute a major problem to them
It should also be a major problem for this airlines to address?
This is a placeholder.
 
737MAX7
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:12 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
Knowing how facts can get distorted, I don't necessarily take this absolutely at face value. I suspect the crew were effectively busy all around these jump seats, to the extent that Mr & Mrs Taylor felt crowded and uncomfortable, and maybe elected to sit on the floor. I can certainly see myself acting similarly in that situation, quietly suggesting that the crew offer free coffee and a sandwich at the very least, and looking forward to nice $$$voucher from TUI Head Office. If not, I would be holding my position in the jump seat, quite possibly stretching my legs out and making their life difficult. However, that kind of confrontation doesn't necessarily suit everybody.

Having ridden the jumpseat several times on Southwest I can tell you that during service in the back galley you are required to go to the front of the plane near the L1 door so the crew can do service.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Yeah you guys are screaming a lot about nothing.
The passengers had a seat for the flight phases requiring a seat belt to be worn.

If the aircraft is within its weights, within its certified exit limit, all belts are worn at phases requiring them, I don't see what is legally wrong.


Turbulence can arise at any point in the flight, and often requires the passenger to be in a seat and belted. If their jump seat isn’t always available to them, then there is the possibility of not being in a seat when they need to be. Thus, rules exist requiring the passenger to always have a seat. A seat which one must periodically vacate is not an acceptable option.
 
friendlyskies22
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:39 pm

...pax sitting on the floor??
Don't give the U.S. airlines any ideas...
 
Dispatcher9999
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:52 pm

Stories like this make my blood boil.
Someone else after their 5 minutes of fame and wanting to get whatever they can from the airlines.
Equipment changes happen all the time, and sometimes unfortunately it is an aircraft with a lower config.
They would have likely been given the option to be swapped on to another flight, or travel on this one but just on a jump seat.
I believe the crew asked if they could just vacate the seats just while they prepared the service carts. I believe the family offered to sit on the floor out of the way, and obviously jumped on the chance to try and get their 5 minutes of fame. They likley chose the jump seats instead of another flight and I believe offered to sit on the floor. But yet they are the victims.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:54 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
Having ridden the jumpseat several times on Southwest I can tell you that during service in the back galley you are required to go to the front of the plane near the L1 door so the crew can do service.


Due to overbooking I have ridden twice in a jumpseat on Scandinavian airlines. Both times I was given a choice, ride in a jumpseat or wait for the next flight. €100 in competition was offered, independently of the choice made.

During takeoff and landing I was seated in the rear galley (737), but had to move to the front during the flight. With several passengers in a jumpseat I can understand TUI why they asked the overbooked passengers to sit in the open space (where there was supposed to be seats) during cabin service. The reason why this indecent reached the media, is probably because they didn't offer a proper compensation (which TUI should do).
Last edited by reidar76 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:56 pm

Maybe this is their form of Basic Economy? Sitting on the floor. At least they had more legroom than the regular passengers.
 
smartplane
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:11 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
The should not have been allowed to fly. In this day of social media and professional outrage, it’s better to just leave them behind rather than engineer their story and ruin your reputation. This simply isn’t allowed in my airline. At times when a seat breaks or we are a last minute aircraft swap we leave people behind and there’s nobody on any jumpseat. I feel bad for those left behind but I’d rather that than my employer’s reputation be dragged through the mud.
It must be so nice living in the black-and-white world you inhabit.

But we do live in a black & white world, especially when transacting with mega businesses and Government agencies.

Too many passengers in 2019, will gain a rebuke from safety agencies, and from the insurer covering liability. Later, it might result in spot inspections, and if not a one off (or other different issues), a re-assessment of risk and premium.

For those well travelled, and/or old, we've probably been on flights in the past, where, compared to current US and Western European standards, corners appear to have been cut (and were). One operator used to make the 'extras' crew for the duration of the flight. Social media and mobile phones have sucked out all the old 'fun' of flying.

Going forward, CORSIA related real-time reporting will be available to the CAA, so will be able to instantly pick up embarkation anomalies.

What seat information would have been on the passengers boarding passes, and the aircraft manifest?
 
ozzietukker
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Stories like this make my blood boil.
Someone else after their 5 minutes of fame and wanting to get whatever they can from the airlines.
Equipment changes happen all the time, and sometimes unfortunately it is an aircraft with a lower config.
They would have likely been given the option to be swapped on to another flight, or travel on this one but just on a jump seat.
I believe the crew asked if they could just vacate the seats just while they prepared the service carts. I believe the family offered to sit on the floor out of the way, and obviously jumped on the chance to try and get their 5 minutes of fame. They likley chose the jump seats instead of another flight and I believe offered to sit on the floor. But yet they are the victims.


I agree the family might have accepted the jumpseat rather then be put on a later or other flight. And yes the crew might have asked to vacate the seats when they prepared the service carts and the family saw the open space as a good place to sit down.

But the family is entitled to compensation, as they have flight tickets for a certain flight on a certain date with certain seats which the airline failed to provide. I understand equipment changes can happen, but this is NOT the problem of the passengers, this is the problem of the airline. Trying to compensate the family with 30 Pounds is not a fair solution and seeking publicity helps in this sort of cases. The family did not do anything wrong, it is the airline who brought them in this situation.
 
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OA260
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm

reidar76 wrote:
. The reason why this indecent reached the media, is probably because they didn't offer a proper compensation (which TUI should do).


BINGO that is the point. TUI failed to offer basic recovery in such circumstances. The passengers paid for proper seats they did not get what was part of their contract when they bought tickets. TUI are renowned for trying to get out of paying anything back especially for delays and cancellations where EU261 is due. Having had to help out neighbours of mine who endured a 20 hour delay last Summer I have to say dealing with their customer service team is one of the worst experiences I have ever had. Promises broken and told money would be paid in 30 days then after you call them back the same story wait another 30 days. More excuses and lies. I guess they hope people will give up. If anyone is trying to claim something back from TUI give them one chance then get a solicitors letter. Its the only thing they understand.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:33 pm

There lucky they didn't encounter severe turbulence, could've ended ugly. I
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:46 pm

If passengers cant be offered a seat belt for the entire flight they shouldn't be boarded point blank.
 
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PA110
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:36 pm

How many spare jumpseats are there on a TUI 738? If the family of 3 were occupying jumpseats, where were the crew seated during take-off and landing?
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
caaardiff
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 pm

TUI operations would not have allowed this to happen. Sounds to me like the Captain made the decision. TUI ops would've found another flight for them to travel back on. They don't allow passengers to sit in jump seats.
As it's row 41DEF that appears to be missing, it's definately a 757. All of TUIs 757s have a row 41 A-F so its odd that 3 seats have been removed, possibly broken?
TUI have a couple of different configs I their 757s but the differences are only in the first few rows.
Sounds like they should never have got on board the aircraft and should've been caught at check in or the gate. By the time the scenario unfolded it's probable that all bags were loaded and the aircraft was ready to go.
I still find it odd that the crew actually allowed it.
 
hayzel777
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:06 pm

Totally not ok. I hope that TUI is punished to the fullest extent.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:39 pm

So it's a couple with a daughter.
The daughter got a regular seat that was empty, the couple had to sit on crew seats. When removing the carts from the galley stowage, I can see how they had to stand up for a few seconds to make space for the carts to slide out.
They could have remained standing near the crew seats and sat back after the carts were removed from the galley stowage, a small inconvenience.
No need to stand for other reasons than that, they don't bother cabin crew that much by sitting there.
Also, on most aircraft there are always a couple of crew seats that are completely out of the way.

I think though that the family smelled a golden opportunity to get more out of the situation, and went to sit down in the empty space where their row was supposed to be to take a picture and claim a refund.
It could be that they sat down there for 10 seconds just to take the pic and went back to their crew seats. If you notice, the daughter was sitting on the floor unnecessarily, despite that the seat behind her is empty on the picture, probably her re-assigned seat.

After some haggling, the family got a full refund of their 1300 GBP tickets.

Kudo's to the crew for taking this upon themselves and getting these people home.
The way TUI customer service haggled about giving them a (decent) refund after the flight, is not the crew's fault and is what caused this storm in the tea cup.
Refunding them the return leg would have been sufficient to make them happy enough to not make a circus out of it.

So if anyone failed, it's the TUI customer service who wanted to nickle and dime it, forgetting the fall-out this could have on the crew.
Second fail is on the family who saw a money-making opportunity at the expense of the crew who decided to care about them and were really just trying to help. They could just as easily dumped them off the flight, crews won't do such things to save the company some pennies.

An helicopter plows its nose in the snow with the rotor swinging dangerously close to the mountain side, playing top gun unnecessarily, and airliners.net is in applause.
But take a family home as jumpseaters and you get crucified for being unsafe.
The logic of internet forums. It's like a radical sect...


Ever heard of the last flight out of Da Nang? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lLBbhnkZU

There is no evidence to suggest that the CAA is investigating this. They'll probably open an occurrence and discuss a bit, then file it.
 
737max8
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:16 am

PA110 wrote:
How many spare jumpseats are there on a TUI 738? If the family of 3 were occupying jumpseats, where were the crew seated during take-off and landing?


6 cabin jumpseats on the 737-800. 4 cabin crew members. Daughter was in a pax seat and parents on the 2 extra jumpseats. Said so in the article.

I don't see the huge deal, everyone had a seat with a seat belt if turbulence hit.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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FCAA321
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:41 am

737max8 wrote:
PA110 wrote:
How many spare jumpseats are there on a TUI 738? If the family of 3 were occupying jumpseats, where were the crew seated during take-off and landing?


6 cabin jumpseats on the 737-800. 4 cabin crew members. Daughter was in a pax seat and parents on the 2 extra jumpseats. Said so in the article.

I don't see the huge deal, everyone had a seat with a seat belt if turbulence hit.


As we’ve already discussed it was a 757 not a 737. And just for reference the majority of TUI 737’s have 5 jumpseats for Crew.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:08 am

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Stories like this make my blood boil.
Someone else after their 5 minutes of fame and wanting to get whatever they can from the airlines.
Equipment changes happen all the time, and sometimes unfortunately it is an aircraft with a lower config.
They would have likely been given the option to be swapped on to another flight, or travel on this one but just on a jump seat.
I believe the crew asked if they could just vacate the seats just while they prepared the service carts. I believe the family offered to sit on the floor out of the way, and obviously jumped on the chance to try and get their 5 minutes of fame. They likley chose the jump seats instead of another flight and I believe offered to sit on the floor. But yet they are the victims.


From The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ats-didnt/

Mrs Taylor said she "got short shrift" from the airline when she personally complained immediately after the incident, despite having photographs of what had happened.She alleges that, after explaining to the company that the seats were "physically missing", she was told that there was no record of the incident and offered a "good will gesture" of £30. Frustrated, she contacted Rip-Off Britain.

After being contacted by the programme Rip-Off Britain, TUI offered the family a full £1300 refund, blaming the incident on a "last minute aircraft change. We're also sorry for the way the situation was initially handled and we’ll be investigating this. We will also be contacting the customers directly to apologise and will be offering a full refund."


All's well that ends well, I say. :P
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
gioannis13
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:35 am

I hope Michael Kevin O'Leary (Ryanair) do not read this topic !!! .........we all understand why !
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WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:43 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Stories like this make my blood boil.
Someone else after their 5 minutes of fame and wanting to get whatever they can from the airlines.
Equipment changes happen all the time, and sometimes unfortunately it is an aircraft with a lower config.
They would have likely been given the option to be swapped on to another flight, or travel on this one but just on a jump seat.
I believe the crew asked if they could just vacate the seats just while they prepared the service carts. I believe the family offered to sit on the floor out of the way, and obviously jumped on the chance to try and get their 5 minutes of fame. They likley chose the jump seats instead of another flight and I believe offered to sit on the floor. But yet they are the victims.


From The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... ats-didnt/

Mrs Taylor said she "got short shrift" from the airline when she personally complained immediately after the incident, despite having photographs of what had happened.She alleges that, after explaining to the company that the seats were "physically missing", she was told that there was no record of the incident and offered a "good will gesture" of £30. Frustrated, she contacted Rip-Off Britain.

After being contacted by the programme Rip-Off Britain, TUI offered the family a full £1300 refund, blaming the incident on a "last minute aircraft change. We're also sorry for the way the situation was initially handled and we’ll be investigating this. We will also be contacting the customers directly to apologise and will be offering a full refund."


All's well that ends well, I say. :P

And this is, IMHO, all the problem nowadays: a lot of companies won't give a diddly-do until someone threatens to, or actually does, contact news outlet or social media. THEN, and only then, will the customer be listened to.

Had a similar thing happen to me with Home Depot: got the runaround from numerous phone agents (who even lied to their own store employees), had to contact their PR by email and give them a 24-hour notice before I threw the thing to local media and customer protection agency (as they refused to honor an electronic gift card they issued). Only then did someone bother to call me and help resolve the situation.
 
N757ST
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:16 pm

I think the differing reactions are between our European and American differences. In Europe this might be acceptable, in the USA its against the rules. Simple as that.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1694
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:37 pm

N757ST wrote:
I think the differing reactions are between our European and American differences. In Europe this might be acceptable, in the USA its against the rules. Simple as that.

What is against the rules?
Please be specific, as you are not the first to suggest this argument.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:14 pm

N757ST wrote:
I think the differing reactions are between our European and American differences. In Europe this might be acceptable, in the USA its against the rules. Simple as that.

It must be be acceptable in Europe either, the BBC article clearly states "[t]he Civil Aviation Authority says while passengers are allowed to sit in crew seats under certain conditions, they must not be left unseated during any stage of the flight."
 
737max8
Posts: 492
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:42 am

FCAA321 wrote:
737max8 wrote:
PA110 wrote:
How many spare jumpseats are there on a TUI 738? If the family of 3 were occupying jumpseats, where were the crew seated during take-off and landing?


6 cabin jumpseats on the 737-800. 4 cabin crew members. Daughter was in a pax seat and parents on the 2 extra jumpseats. Said so in the article.

I don't see the huge deal, everyone had a seat with a seat belt if turbulence hit.


As we’ve already discussed it was a 757 not a 737. And just for reference the majority of TUI 737’s have 5 jumpseats for Crew.


That would be interesting, I've never seen a 737 jumpseat that wasn't a pair. Most 738's I've seen have a pair in the front and 2 pairs in the back.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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TW870
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:06 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I think the differing reactions are between our European and American differences. In Europe this might be acceptable, in the USA its against the rules. Simple as that.

What is against the rules?
Please be specific, as you are not the first to suggest this argument.


In the U.S., a passenger cannot occupy a flight attendant jumpseat in any phase of flight. I believe there is a specific Federal Aviation Regulation that mandates this, but it was policy at United when I flew for them a decade back. We were required to keep passengers clear of the jumpseats at all times. Kids could not play on them, and passengers could not sit on them while waiting for the lavatory. In no case could a passenger ever be assigned a jumpseat. The only non-flight attendant authorized to be in an FA jumpseat was, from what I recall, pilots if both of their jumpseats were full and no flight attendant requested the open jumpseat. I was very surprised to read this story, but it does sound as if passengers my use FA jumpseats under EU rules.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1403
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:49 am

Dispatcher9999 wrote:
Stories like this make my blood boil.
Someone else after their 5 minutes of fame and wanting to get whatever they can from the airlines.
Equipment changes happen all the time, and sometimes unfortunately it is an aircraft with a lower config.
They would have likely been given the option to be swapped on to another flight, or travel on this one but just on a jump seat.
I believe the crew asked if they could just vacate the seats just while they prepared the service carts. I believe the family offered to sit on the floor out of the way, and obviously jumped on the chance to try and get their 5 minutes of fame. They likley chose the jump seats instead of another flight and I believe offered to sit on the floor. But yet they are the victims.


How is this the pax's fault? They purchased seats that were not available, regardless of what they accepted as alternatives. The airline is 1000% at fault here. Oy vey!
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dampfnudel
Posts: 380
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:53 am

Someone definitely dropped the ball here. I’m surprised there wasn’t some red flag triggered when they checked in that their seats didn’t exist on the swapped aircraft.
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1694
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Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:32 am

TW870 wrote:
In the U.S., a passenger cannot occupy a flight attendant jumpseat in any phase of flight.
Good start

I believe there is a specific Federal Aviation Regulation that mandates this,
Here, not quite so good.

it was policy at United when I flew for them a decade back.
Yeah, I'll buy that. And Delta too. And probably quite a few EU airlines...

The only non-flight attendant authorized to be in an FA jumpseat was, from what I recall, pilots if both of their jumpseats were full and no flight attendant requested the open jumpseat.
I've seen comments from lots of mechanics and other company personnel who are going to argue against that statement. Plus things will have changed since 9/11 and the regulations regarding cockpit security. Jumpseats in cockpits are now very tightly controlled; jumpseats elsewhere on the plane somewhat less so.

There is a wikipedia article, and previous threads both here on a.net, and other aviation forums.
FAR regs are often intimated, but so far nobody anywhere has come up with a definitive answer, apart from "it's company policy".

So by all means comment that US Airlines are more cautious than the rest of the world. This is either because the US is a very litigatious society, or because they are more safety conscientious. That's a discussion for the non-Av thread.

Here's another thread on the use of jump seats, dating from 2014
viewtopic.php?t=566781
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:36 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
TW870 wrote:
In the U.S., a passenger cannot occupy a flight attendant jumpseat in any phase of flight.
Good start

I believe there is a specific Federal Aviation Regulation that mandates this,
Here, not quite so good.

You're contradicting yourself here.

The only way for saying in the US, meaning encompassing every single airline with no exception, is by a Federal Law, a.k.a. in this case a specific Federal Aviation Regulation.
If there is no specific FAR prohibiting a pax to occupy a FA jumpseat in any phase of flight, then it is an airline-specific policy; meaning that there could be an airline deciding to allow pax to seat in a FA jumpseat.

Lastly, even if no airline allow it per their internal policy, then there is very little the FAA could do in case a pax ends up seating in a FA jumpseat as directed by a FA; they could not fault the airline for not abiding to a non-existing FAR...
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1362
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:07 pm

I was on a Mexicana flight from Cabo San Lucan to Mazatlan in 1984 where there were people and bags on the floor.
I can drive faster than you
 
TW870
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Family sit on floor during flight, not enough seats.

Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:35 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
TW870 wrote:
In the U.S., a passenger cannot occupy a flight attendant jumpseat in any phase of flight.
Good start

I believe there is a specific Federal Aviation Regulation that mandates this,
Here, not quite so good.

it was policy at United when I flew for them a decade back.
Yeah, I'll buy that. And Delta too. And probably quite a few EU airlines...

The only non-flight attendant authorized to be in an FA jumpseat was, from what I recall, pilots if both of their jumpseats were full and no flight attendant requested the open jumpseat.
I've seen comments from lots of mechanics and other company personnel who are going to argue against that statement. Plus things will have changed since 9/11 and the regulations regarding cockpit security. Jumpseats in cockpits are now very tightly controlled; jumpseats elsewhere on the plane somewhat less so.

There is a wikipedia article, and previous threads both here on a.net, and other aviation forums.
FAR regs are often intimated, but so far nobody anywhere has come up with a definitive answer, apart from "it's company policy".

So by all means comment that US Airlines are more cautious than the rest of the world. This is either because the US is a very litigatious society, or because they are more safety conscientious. That's a discussion for the non-Av thread.

Here's another thread on the use of jump seats, dating from 2014
viewtopic.php?t=566781


Okay I believe I found the relevant information. Here is FAR 125.211

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... 1&rgn=div8

Every person on an airplane must have a "seat or birth" with a seatbelt. It says nothing specific about a jumpseat, and it says nothing specific about passengers in jumpseats. My guess, though, is that individual airlines interpret FAR 125.211 such that flight attendants must keep passengers out of their jumpseats in order to guarantee access to the "seat or birth" with a seatbelt that is provided for a flight attendant. But there is nothing I can see in the FARs that would prevent a passenger from sitting in an open, unassigned FA jumpseat - although no U.S. airline that I am aware of allows it.

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