LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:50 pm

NYC is no doubt the No 1 choice for any European airlines seeking new routes to the US.

Previously, the major airports in east coast such as BOS, ORD, IAD, MIA were among the 2nd choices after NYC.

But now, I figure out most European carriers are treating California market as the same importance as those airports I mentioned above, some airlines even come to California before reaching ORD, BOS, etc. In terms of frequencies, like British Airways offers the total of 8-9 daily flights to LAX, SFO, SAN and SJC which I think the capacities is just behind JFK&EWR.

Distance wise the California is far from European countries. What makes California becoming so attractive as more EU airlines flooding in?
 
as739x
Posts: 5138
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:58 pm

"What makes California becoming so attractive as more EU airlines flooding in?"

filler

MONEY $$$
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25508
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:02 pm

SF and LA are easy to fill. The yields probably aren't that great, but the planes fill with ease. There is way too much Europe capacity from SF/LA and it is not sustainable long-term (and the same certainly applied to over-served airports out east like Miami, Boston and Chicago). After NY and Miami, the largest trans-Atlantic markets are LA and SF, not Boston or Chicago or Washington.
a.
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:08 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
SF and LA are easy to fill. The yields probably aren't that great, but the planes fill with ease. There is way too much Europe capacity from SF/LA and it is not sustainable long-term (and the same certainly applied to over-served airports out east like Miami, Boston and Chicago). After NY and Miami, the largest trans-Atlantic markets are LA and SF, not Boston or Chicago or Washington.

How about the premium traffic to Miami compare to LA and SF?
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8405
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:31 pm

California is an economic powerhouse, fifth (?) biggest economy in the world, number one globally in tech/IT, aerospace, movies-games-music, green/progressive issues. On top of that, it has endless appeal for tourists -- surf, snow, desert, cities, mountains, culture, the works. Back in the 70s and 80s maybe it was less dominant, and also it was at the very edge of nonstop range for planes of the time (doable since the 707-320 Intercontinental and 747-200B to be fair, but only by being maxed out on fuel). Now the 777-300ER, 747-400, A380, A330, 787 etc can all do it with ease and economically. The extra couple of hours compared to EU to NY doesn't seem to be a turn-off. To illustrate the increase in traffic, I don't know if Swissair ever served California but today's Swiss flies daily year-round 777-300ERs to both LA and SF and they're full every day, 8F 62J 270Y for a total of 680 seats each way between Zurich and California.

As long as the price of fuel doesn't go up too much, the capacity we have to California will stay and actually we'll probably see more added -- Finnair, TAP, Austrian. Alitalia are way overdue to reopen San Francisco. Iberia from Madrid to SF. SK from Stockholm to SF, Oslo to anywhere in Calif. A couple of new Euro destinations for United. Someone from Berlin to LA SF or both, sure Berlin's famous for being low yield but it's a cultural boom town and that traffic exists.

And all this is on top of a huge increase in capacity on Europe already in the last few years. It's a success story for sure.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
AsiaTravel
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:28 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 pm

Speaking of California I found this interesting tweet of United largest global corporate accounts. Lots of business flying out of California it seems.


Image

https://twitter.com/LAflyr/status/1083787010186260480
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3101
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:58 pm

It's simple, California has a huge tourist appeal from Europe. Being European myself I've only been to the USA once and that was to Los Angeles. A beautiful city. The somewhat longer flight wasn't a turn-off at all and I felt like compared to the east coast California has more to offer.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2004
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:00 pm

AsiaTravel wrote:
Speaking of California I found this interesting tweet of United largest global corporate accounts. Lots of business flying out of California it seems.


Image

https://twitter.com/LAflyr/status/1083787010186260480


That's a really interesting graphic. Seems like Apple contributes mightily to UA's international network out of SFO, and especially TPAC!

That said, the graphic must be specific to UA's largest California (maybe even just SFO?) customers only... There's no way all those California accounts would be ahead of some of UA's Houston, Chicago, Washington, and New York clients...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:19 pm

FSDan wrote:
AsiaTravel wrote:
Speaking of California I found this interesting tweet of United largest global corporate accounts. Lots of business flying out of California it seems.


Image

https://twitter.com/LAflyr/status/1083787010186260480


That's a really interesting graphic. Seems like Apple contributes mightily to UA's international network out of SFO, and especially TPAC!

That said, the graphic must be specific to UA's largest California (maybe even just SFO?) customers only... There's no way all those California accounts would be ahead of some of UA's Houston, Chicago, Washington, and New York clients...

If SFO-PVG is the #1 market for Apple, why don't UA deploys Polaris product on this route? The business class product on 789 is lag behind.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9065
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:49 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
Distance wise the California is far from European countries. What makes California becoming so attractive as more EU airlines flooding in?

I wouldn't call it a boom. California has always been very popular with Europeans. It's no coincidence that AF who has struggled to find a place for the A380 has consistently used it on the LAX route. And so does BA, and LH.
A few European airlines stopped serving California and now are resuming their flights. Does that count as a boom or a return to normal, previous level? In the case of TAP starting SFO for example, the reason is demand from Californians wanting to visit Portugal.
Why are these airline resuming flights to California? My guess is as good as anybody's but as you alluded to, it's a very long flight which I think s made more viable now by lower operating costs and more efficient aircraft.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:28 pm

In addition the population of California has continually increased over the years.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:43 pm

San Francisco is also a popular vacation destination for Europeans. Go to the lobby of just about any hotel on Market Street and you will hear quite a few foreign languages. Even more on the tourists trails.
 
LondonXtreme
Topic Author
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:00 am

When I moved to SF Bay Area 12 years ago. I can count by my hand how many European destinations did SFO have, LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, AMS, DUB, that's it. And then ZRH and CPH were added, and IST afterwards. No flights to Italy, Spain and Portugal. UA only served LHR and FRA. If SFO is so popular among Europeans, why SFO market was underserved at that time.?
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 2735
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:15 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
In addition the population of California has continually increased over the years.


CA also ranks #1 in the country for people fleeing their home state. The LA Times ran a good article recently that guesstimated that between 80% and 90% of caucasians and blacks who graduated from Southland high schools between 1995 and 2010 no longer live in California. There’s a reason why those who did remain continually refer to ‘old California.’

Wealthy immigrants from Asia and the Middle East have taken their place (and are often blamed for causing the problem to begin with, for running up the cost of living) and most travel back-and-forth fairly frequently, stimulating the need for low-cost ethic fares...
Nobody cares what your next flight is...
 
Max Q
Posts: 6963
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:34 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
NYC is no doubt the No 1 choice for any European airlines seeking new routes to the US.

Previously, the major airports in east coast such as BOS, ORD, IAD, MIA were among the 2nd choices after NYC.

But now, I figure out most European carriers are treating California market as the same importance as those airports I mentioned above, some airlines even come to California before reaching ORD, BOS, etc. In terms of frequencies, like British Airways offers the total of 8-9 daily flights to LAX, SFO, SAN and SJC which I think the capacities is just behind JFK&EWR.

Distance wise the California is far from European countries. What makes California becoming so attractive as more EU airlines flooding in?



ORD is not on the east coast !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:53 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
It's simple, California has a huge tourist appeal from Europe. Being European myself I've only been to the USA once and that was to Los Angeles. A beautiful city. The somewhat longer flight wasn't a turn-off at all and I felt like compared to the east coast California has more to offer.


It’s not only tourism but also loads of business travellers. Especially from SFO and the Bay Area down to San Jose.

Not sure I’d call LA a beautiful city though... Out of curiosity how can you compare the east coast to the west coast when you only have been to one place?
 
Bhoy
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:25 am

cedarjet wrote:
To illustrate the increase in traffic, I don't know if Swissair ever served California but today's Swiss flies daily year-round 777-300ERs to both LA and SF and they're full every day, 8F 62J 270Y for a total of 680 seats each way between Zurich and California.

Swissair started serving LAX (SR107) with DC-10s in 1989, and SFO (SR109) in 1998 (the DC10s were gone by then, both services were latterly served with MD-11s)
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9227
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:29 am

AsiaTravel wrote:
Speaking of California I found this interesting tweet of United largest global corporate accounts. Lots of business flying out of California it seems.


Image

https://twitter.com/LAflyr/status/1083787010186260480


1.) Apple filling 50 business class seats per day on one route alone is stunning. Tim, get yourself a BBJ.

2.) I’m amazed Siemens didn’t make that list. I’ve never seen a company travel internationally for more mundane meetings than those people, often from UA or Star Alliance hubs.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
babastud
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
When I moved to SF Bay Area 12 years ago. I can count by my hand how many European destinations did SFO have, LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, AMS, DUB, that's it. And then ZRH and CPH were added, and IST afterwards. No flights to Italy, Spain and Portugal. UA only served LHR and FRA. If SFO is so popular among Europeans, why SFO market was underserved at that time.?



A couple of reasons. Historically SFO served the Major hubs in Europe such as these listed above, however it sent much of it's traffic through the major east coast hubs of JFK, EWR, etc for connections. The same goes for LAX. It also sent much of it's traffic through the major European hubs like LHR or FRA to connect to smaller cities or those not served non-stop. The demand was there for additional non-stops to new markets but often the equipment was not there. Many of the routes where more seasonal or relied on equipment such as 747's or others where to much capacity on new routes or smaller European hubs and often the 767's struggled with stage length and weight at certain times of the year. Over time two things happened. The first being that the Market, business, wealth, has gone off the charts particularly in SFO area meaning more business demand etc, and the second new planes like the A330's and 787's and so forth made it much more possible and profitable to fly too. This is not unique to SFO as this has happened all over the world especially in the last 5 years, it's just that SFO is a great example of it.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 4768
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:37 am

Part is to blame for the new Tech / Internet bubble. Too much money around so people travel more. I suspect when this bubble pops, some carriers may leave or reduce SFO.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13560
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:49 am

The growth at LAX has been truly spectacular. The past few years we have added ARN, OSL, CPH, KEF, WAW, VIE, BCN, LGW and reinstated service to MAD, FCO, MAN and DUB. This spring we will also add HEL and MXP!
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:14 am

"Not sure I’d call LA a beautiful city though... Out of curiosity how can you compare the east coast to the west coast when you only have been to one place?"
LA is beautiful as long as you stay west of the 405.
 
senatorflyer
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:57 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:14 am

eta unknown wrote:
"Not sure I’d call LA a beautiful city though... Out of curiosity how can you compare the east coast to the west coast when you only have been to one place?"
LA is beautiful as long as you stay west of the 405.


:lol:
 
airbazar
Posts: 9065
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:01 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
When I moved to SF Bay Area 12 years ago. I can count by my hand how many European destinations did SFO have, LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, AMS, DUB, that's it. And then ZRH and CPH were added, and IST afterwards. No flights to Italy, Spain and Portugal. UA only served LHR and FRA. If SFO is so popular among Europeans, why SFO market was underserved at that time.?


It wasn't just SFO that had fewer flights. 12 years ago a lot of airlines were in dire straights and the airline industry in general was still recovering from the dot-com bust, Sep 11, the global recession that followed, SARS, and very high oil prices. In the early 2000's there was a significant reduction in global air travel. In the decade between 2001-2011 virtually every U.S. carrier had filed for Ch.11 bankruptcy protection. At the same time a lot of European airlines, some still government owned were bleeding money. Swissair, Alitalia, Iberia, TAP, just to name a few were bankrupt and either collapsed or were on the verge of collapse.
ZRH, Italy, and Portugal had been served from the Bay Area for many years before that. Both ZRH and FCO were suspended in the early 2000's because of one or all of the above. Portugal however never stopped being served, IIRC. It has had seasonal service from OAK on SATA for a long time.
A stronger economy, more efficient aircraft, and lower cost business models have created an environment where airlines can serve long and thin routes like LIS-SFO. Before that Europeans were still visiting but not always on non-stop routes.
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: Is LAX&SFO booming in terms of the number of European carriers?

Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:18 am

Once the western side of Terminal 1 is remodeled, SFO will be able to add more European flights. It is my understanding that five gates at the new terminal will be connected to a FIS station.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos