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jplatts
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Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:22 am

Happy New Year!

Please feel free to discuss aviation topics relating to airports in the DFW Metroplex, including at DFW International Airport (DFW) and Dallas Love Field (DAL) in this thread.

Topics for discussion in this thread include the following:
  • Expansion of DFW International Airport
  • Opening new airports in the DFW Metroplex to commercial passenger air service
  • Possible expansion opportunities at DFW or DAL by carriers already serving DFW or DAL
  • Possible expansion opportunities by new entrant carriers at DFW or DAL
  • Further expansion of the AA DFW hub
  • Adds, drops, frequency increases, or frequency reductions on routes out of DFW or DAL
  • Updates to commercial passenger air service out of DFW or DAL
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:24 pm

You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:39 pm

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw ... sion-looms

Some interesting quotes-
"A parking lot at the airport's south end provides an existing and obvious footprint for a new terminal. But DFW's famed horseshoe design was laid out in the 1970s at a time when air travel was significantly different and didn't contemplate the type of mega-hub model favored by major airlines today."

"I wish it was an easy thing to say you just build another Terminal D on the F site," said Tim Skipworth, American's vice president of airport affairs and facilities. "But it's more complicated than that."

"While Terminal C was initially supposed to be part of that renovation, the airport held off work as it eyed future plans. The terminal, opened in 1974, consistently scores the lowest of any at DFW in customer experience surveys, and the airport's long-term plans will have to consider how to update or replace the facility and its 28 gates.

"I call C the LaGuardia of DFW. And I mean that. I'm not proud to say it, but I do," Donohue said, referencing the dated New York airport.

Merely updating Terminal C to bring it in line with other terminals would likely cost $1 billion or more, he said, with no added gates."

"Do you want to put $1.5 billion into a 50-year-old asset?" Donohue asked. "I don't believe that's the right answer. ...

"The existing plot that's now home to the Express South Parking lot would allow a new terminal to easily hook into the Skylink tram system and fit neatly with the five other terminals.

But building there would continue a design that dates to the 1970s and was aimed at making it easy for local customers to park, check in and walk to their gates in as short a distance as possible."

"That's less than ideal for the airport as it has evolved into a major hub for connecting passengers, which will be the largest driver of growth as American continues to add flights. Connecting passengers might have to take a tram to a different terminal to change flights, while the airline has to hustle to make sure checked bags make it to the correct planes."
"American and DFW Airport officials say they're looking at a range of options for a new terminal design, from something that closely mirrors Terminal D's mix of international and domestic gates to a modular approach that adds gates in phases to something that departs from the existing horseshoe designs altogether."

My opinion, if Terminal F was a Terminal D clone this process would have started already. The fact AA and the DFW are still talking leads to me to believe we are starting to see a new layout built in stages over the course of many years.
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:41 pm

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastr ... reness.pdf

The world's 2nd busiest airport in ops uses the same principal and ATL does to an extent, for a reason. It moves more planes efficiently and safely. Jet blast does not seem to be an issue. When one lands at DFW, you are 15 minutes from your gate anyways depending on how long it takes ATC to get your aircraft cross the inner take off runway. Might as well taxi to Y to cross behind aircraft taking off instead of in front of it. Cheaper than wrap around taxiways.
 
osupoke07
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:58 pm

william wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw-airport/2018/12/30/dfw-airport-prepares-record-growth-terminal-f-decision-looms


I read that article and I'm struggling to see what the solution other than a copy of terminal D is? They already have Skylink built for it which makes passenger connections easier, so they must be trying to figure out how to reduce taxi times from the west to east side.

It seems that building a long ATL or DEN style terminal system across the current road and terminal structure seems so expensive. They would have to essentially completely re-build the airport and I don't think that's a cost the respective parties want to incur.
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MeanGreen
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:36 pm

“...ATC to get your aircraft cross the inner take off runway. Might as well taxi to Y to cross behind aircraft taking off instead of in front of it. Cheaper than wrap around taxiways.”

You delay the departures doing that. Adding “wrap around” taxiways increases efficiency by not delaying departures and eliminates the risks involved with a runway crossing.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 pm

Let's start 2019 right...can we remove Metroplex from our vernacular? It's so 70s. Let's move into the 21 century. m2c.
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:48 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
william wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/dfw-airport/2018/12/30/dfw-airport-prepares-record-growth-terminal-f-decision-looms


I read that article and I'm struggling to see what the solution other than a copy of terminal D is? They already have Skylink built for it which makes passenger connections easier, so they must be trying to figure out how to reduce taxi times from the west to east side.

It seems that building a long ATL or DEN style terminal system across the current road and terminal structure seems so expensive. They would have to essentially completely re-build the airport and I don't think that's a cost the respective parties want to incur.


I don't think anything radical is being planned NOW. If the layout does change it will be over a long time. Many keep bringing up ATL's and DEN's terminal layout as the one to copy,but there are other layouts that will fit DFW better such a linear north/south terminal. The popular and former AA CEO Crandall wanted to do a large E shaped terminal on the site of Terminal D and F back in the 80s. He didn't want then hub competitor Delta at Terminal E (then Terminal 4E) to expand into a vacant Terminal C (then Terminal 3E) so nixed the plan.
Last edited by william on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
sccutler
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm

Today marks the beginning of assessment of ill-conceived landing fees at Love Field. The Dallas city council are possessed of the ludicrous - idiotic - notion that increasing the cost of operation al DAL will drive traffic to Dallas Executive (RBD), thus making RBD... relevant.

Never happen.

There's a pretty sound argument that the landing fees violate grant assurances.

Bet we haven't seen the last of this...

...happy new year to each and all! Fly safe.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:53 pm

MeanGreen wrote:
“...ATC to get your aircraft cross the inner take off runway. Might as well taxi to Y to cross behind aircraft taking off instead of in front of it. Cheaper than wrap around taxiways.”

You delay the departures doing that. Adding “wrap around” taxiways increases efficiency by not delaying departures and eliminates the risks involved with a runway crossing.


How? Its not delaying ops at ORD and ATL.
 
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gdg9
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:59 pm

on another note, QR will run A350-1000 to/from DFW from July. Confirmed on QR site.
@dfwtower
 
MeanGreen
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:13 pm

You can keep departing planes if you aren’t crossing arrivals in front of them. Reference taxiway ES south of the 17s.
 
joeblow10
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:23 pm

sccutler wrote:
Today marks the beginning of assessment of ill-conceived landing fees at Love Field. The Dallas city council are possessed of the ludicrous - idiotic - notion that increasing the cost of operation al DAL will drive traffic to Dallas Executive (RBD), thus making RBD... relevant.

Never happen.

There's a pretty sound argument that the landing fees violate grant assurances.

Bet we haven't seen the last of this...

...happy new year to each and all! Fly safe.


The whole idea of landing fees is to charge all users of an airport fairly by their share of activity to recoup costs - that was not being done at DAL. Obviously the city needed more revenue for the airport, but is trying to be fair and reduce the burden on the airlines as much as possible.

Is there a reason private jet/turboprop aircraft shouldn’t pay a landing fee in addition to the big guys?

By the way, the argument that landing fees “violate grant assurances” is pretty out there - if you could prove the fees are arbitrary and burdensome on some but not others, you’d have a different story. The airport sponsor is tasked with ensuring the fees reflect a fair value “cost” of operating at the airport, and if it’s like virtually every single landing fee in the United States, there isn’t much of an argument to be made.
 
sccutler
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:31 pm

There is more to come on the landing fee issue, and council themselves asserted that their goal was to massage traffic. And (of course), included in the entire mess is the gift of a no-bid contract with city money for improvements at RBD.

Follow the money. Always, follow the money.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
B1168
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:25 pm

Let me ask.
There seems to be lots of space between 35C and 35R. Can that space allow a satellite hall, connected by Skylink, to hospitalize low-cost and short haul flights? There are plenty of space to make a satellite terminal, and TF’s space can be kept as the parking lot, too.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:21 pm

The big burning question I have is - is will AA open an Admirals Club in Terminal E when the satellite is open. Flying Eagle/Skywest out of E is absolute bliss (parking and security wise, but the lack of a club is a big negative).
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:23 pm

If we have a gate problem and a terminal C problem here’s what I would see being a good solution over the next few years.

From the southern end of D build an extension going where F’s open space is. I would see if being a straight line rather than DFW’s normal “C” shape. You don’t build it with its own garages, check-in, etc like the other terminals (to help reduce cost and complexity) and all those items are done from D with expanded security and check-in infrastructure. You keep the Skylink and tie the new F into the existing system so that you can easily get around the airport and if you were an originating passenger and you departed from the far south end of “F” you’d just go two stops down and get off there.

When that’s done you tear down C and rebuild a mirror of D with the idea, similarly being you have a big middle headhouse you push people to go to and connect “New C” to the existing E.

So you go from north to south:
C a connection a square U and then a long linear concourse. Weird shape but would be a cost-effective way for them to boost gate count, keep the majority of airport infrastructure, and work towards lower operating costs for AA.
 
FlyingSicilian
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:44 pm

Any new media updates on the services to begin at FTW? I am looking forward to it coming to fruition.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:46 pm

Here are my predictions for adds by domestic carriers other than AA out of DFW:
  • DL bringing back DFW-SEA and DFW-BOS nonstop service
  • B6 adding DFW-JFK nonstop service
  • NK adding DFW-CMH, DFW-IND, and DFW-JAX nonstop service
  • SY adding DFW-PDX nonstop service
  • HA adding DFW-HNL nonstop service in order to defend market share against WN in Hawaii

Are there any gates in Terminal E that are capable of accommodating widebody aircraft, or would HA need to use Terminal D at DFW if it adds service to DFW? If HA starts service out of DFW, HA would need access to a gate that could accommodate widebody aircraft, but HA would not need access to an international arrivals facility at DFW.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:59 pm

Let hope this year DFW and CM do some serious talking.
If AV kept SAL-DFW from the TACA days, pretty sure CM could sustain PTY (hub) - DFW B737-700 3-4 days per week.
Chances of getting MIA-centric AA to re-start DFW-PTY are very low.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Brandon757
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:08 pm

Why are there no South American carriers to DFW? Surely LATAM could make a flight work being a One World member.
 
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zululima
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:18 pm

B1168 wrote:
Let me ask.
There seems to be lots of space between 35C and 35R. Can that space allow a satellite hall, connected by Skylink, to hospitalize low-cost and short haul flights? There are plenty of space to make a satellite terminal, and TF’s space can be kept as the parking lot, too.


1. No, because there is simply no reason to do so. All pax flights can be accommodated in the CTA.
2. Hospitalize?
3. You can't drag Skylink across the active runways. Maybe a Dirtlink.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
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zululima
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:22 pm

Brandon757 wrote:
Why are there no South American carriers to DFW? Surely LATAM could make a flight work being a One World member.


They prefer MIA as the gateway, but I've always thought DFW could support at least a 767/787 once daily to take advantage of AA's massive feed west of the Mississippi, but I guess they would rather back-track people ex-LAX.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:29 pm

Brandon757 wrote:
Why are there no South American carriers to DFW? Surely LATAM could make a flight work being a One World member.
AV is a South American (now mostly Colombian) airline. It operates SAL-DFW a route which came when AV took over Taca.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:52 pm

I have two predictions:

1) The "new" BFL-DFW will not last past the ending of the grant that led to its restart. Other than oil, there really isn't the business demand for this route, otherwise AA would have restarted it long ago. I most certainly hope I'm wrong, but I know my BFL history.

2) Terminal F will be built to fit in with the rest of the terminals and the SkyLink. Once it is opened, all operations in C can be moved to F (as well as some being redistributed to other terminals), at least temporarily, so that C can be evacuated and rebuilt. Expensive, but the least disruptive to airport operations.

jplatts wrote:
Are there any gates in Terminal E that are capable of accommodating widebody aircraft, or would HA need to use Terminal D at DFW if it adds service to DFW? If HA starts service out of DFW, HA would need access to a gate that could accommodate widebody aircraft, but HA would not need access to an international arrivals facility at DFW.


There are a multitude of gates at E that are wide-body capable. Delta's history with both the 747 and L-1011 at DFW go back to the opening of the airport:

http://www.departedflights.com/DL102774p25.html
 
Brandon757
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:52 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Brandon757 wrote:
Why are there no South American carriers to DFW? Surely LATAM could make a flight work being a One World member.
AV is a South American (now mostly Colombian) airline. It operates SAL-DFW a route which came when AV took over Taca.

I guess I didn't consider AV since their DFW route flies to Central America.
 
jplatts
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:01 pm

While WN has limited room to further expand at DAL, WN could increase DAL-PDX and DAL-SEA nonstop service to 2 daily nonstops from 1 daily nonstop in order to better compete against AS at DAL. WN could also add DAL-CLE nonstop service since (a) the lack of DAL-CLE nonstop service is the biggest remaining hole at DAL, (b) DL or AS will never serve CLE nonstop from DAL, (c) CLE is the oldest WN station outside of Texas that has never had regularly scheduled nonstop service to DAL on WN, and (d) there is more demand for DAL-CLE service than was the case in the past.

In addition to increasing nonstop service to SEA and PDX from DAL and in addition to adding DAL-CLE nonstop service, WN could also add DAL-CVG nonstop service in order to better against AA, DL, and F9 on CVG-DFW/DAL. WN has much stronger brand recognition in the DFW Metroplex than F9 does, and there are some travelers in the DFW Metroplex who prefer to fly on WN over DL or F9. WN had also previously said that it was considering adding service to Texas destinations from CVG, and HOU and AUS are the only other WN destinations in Texas that WN would consider serving nonstop from CVG.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:23 pm

jplatts wrote:

Are there any gates in Terminal E that are capable of accommodating widebody aircraft, or would HA need to use Terminal D at DFW if it adds service to DFW? If HA starts service out of DFW, HA would need access to a gate that could accommodate widebody aircraft, but HA would not need access to an international arrivals facility at DFW.


Yes. Personally, I've seen aircraft as large as 744s at E, near the center of the horseshoe. It doesn't happen often -think charters and suchforth- but it's certainly something HAL could make use of.

Also, I do remember seeing DL L1011s there in the past. That may have been more regular.
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william
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:27 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
If we have a gate problem and a terminal C problem here’s what I would see being a good solution over the next few years.

From the southern end of D build an extension going where F’s open space is. I would see if being a straight line rather than DFW’s normal “C” shape. You don’t build it with its own garages, check-in, etc like the other terminals (to help reduce cost and complexity) and all those items are done from D with expanded security and check-in infrastructure. You keep the Skylink and tie the new F into the existing system so that you can easily get around the airport and if you were an originating passenger and you departed from the far south end of “F” you’d just go two stops down and get off there.

When that’s done you tear down C and rebuild a mirror of D with the idea, similarly being you have a big middle headhouse you push people to go to and connect “New C” to the existing E.

So you go from north to south:
C a connection a square U and then a long linear concourse. Weird shape but would be a cost-effective way for them to boost gate count, keep the majority of airport infrastructure, and work towards lower operating costs for AA.


Nice theory but it will require an expensive rerouting of Skylink from Terminal D to F. Again, I like your idea.
 
B1168
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:40 pm

jplatts wrote:
While WN has limited room to further expand at DAL, WN could increase DAL-PDX and DAL-SEA nonstop service to 2 daily nonstops from 1 daily nonstop in order to better compete against AS at DAL. WN could also add DAL-CLE nonstop service since (a) the lack of DAL-CLE nonstop service is the biggest remaining hole at DAL, (b) DL or AS will never serve CLE nonstop from DAL, (c) CLE is the oldest WN station outside of Texas that has never had regularly scheduled nonstop service to DAL on WN, and (d) there is more demand for DAL-CLE service than was the case in the past.

In addition to increasing nonstop service to SEA and PDX from DAL and in addition to adding DAL-CLE nonstop service, WN could also add DAL-CVG nonstop service in order to better against AA, DL, and F9 on CVG-DFW/DAL. WN has much stronger brand recognition in the DFW Metroplex than F9 does, and there are some travelers in the DFW Metroplex who prefer to fly on WN over DL or F9. WN had also previously said that it was considering adding service to Texas destinations from CVG, and HOU and AUS are the only other WN destinations in Texas that WN would consider serving nonstop from CVG.


The problem is, there are equivalent of 4 daily nonstops DFW-CLE and DFW-CVG(per Flightradar24). Also, CLE&CVG seems to be more in the influence sphere of ORD,DTW&ATL. I personally has little idea on how well the route will be, given that no departure time can be chosen with only 1 daily.
Regardlessly, I have no reason to disagree. I am only mildly concerned with its profitability.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:52 pm

zululima wrote:
Brandon757 wrote:
Why are there no South American carriers to DFW? Surely LATAM could make a flight work being a One World member.


They prefer MIA as the gateway, but I've always thought DFW could support at least a 767/787 once daily to take advantage of AA's massive feed west of the Mississippi, but I guess they would rather back-track people ex-LAX.


I believe another reason why LATAM does not fly to DFW is because of a lack of O and D to DFW from South America. On the other hand the O and D to/from South Florida and South America is massive. Last time I checked AA and LATAM had 4 flights a day between MIA and Sao Paulo alone plus flights to other cities in Brazil. MIA and FLL to Brazil are served by 5 carriers, LATAM, AA, GOL, Avianca Brazil and Azul.
 
khinstorff
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:18 am

dfdubflyer wrote:
If we have a gate problem and a terminal C problem here’s what I would see being a good solution over the next few years.

From the southern end of D build an extension going where F’s open space is. I would see if being a straight line rather than DFW’s normal “C” shape. You don’t build it with its own garages, check-in, etc like the other terminals (to help reduce cost and complexity) and all those items are done from D with expanded security and check-in infrastructure. You keep the Skylink and tie the new F into the existing system so that you can easily get around the airport and if you were an originating passenger and you departed from the far south end of “F” you’d just go two stops down and get off there.

When that’s done you tear down C and rebuild a mirror of D with the idea, similarly being you have a big middle headhouse you push people to go to and connect “New C” to the existing E.

So you go from north to south:
C a connection a square U and then a long linear concourse. Weird shape but would be a cost-effective way for them to boost gate count, keep the majority of airport infrastructure, and work towards lower operating costs for AA.


This is a pretty interesting proposal. I’d assume (In this design proposal) they build piers off A, B, F and E that extend to the east/west to accommodate future growth.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:49 am

I definitely assume piers extending in the future to add gates to D-South, A-South/E-North etc.

william wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
If we have a gate problem and a terminal C problem here’s what I would see being a good solution over the next few years.

From the southern end of D build an extension going where F’s open space is. I would see if being a straight line rather than DFW’s normal “C” shape. You don’t build it with its own garages, check-in, etc like the other terminals (to help reduce cost and complexity) and all those items are done from D with expanded security and check-in infrastructure. You keep the Skylink and tie the new F into the existing system so that you can easily get around the airport and if you were an originating passenger and you departed from the far south end of “F” you’d just go two stops down and get off there.

When that’s done you tear down C and rebuild a mirror of D with the idea, similarly being you have a big middle headhouse you push people to go to and connect “New C” to the existing E.

So you go from north to south:
C a connection a square U and then a long linear concourse. Weird shape but would be a cost-effective way for them to boost gate count, keep the majority of airport infrastructure, and work towards lower operating costs for AA.


Nice theory but it will require an expensive rerouting of Skylink from Terminal D to F. Again, I like your idea.


Yes, but there's no way I can see a future design not being connected to SkyLink, so how much can that matter?
My concern is how much security capacity does D have? If you add a bunch of people departing from D-South gates, it sounds like they need to go through D security.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:01 am

https://imgur.com/a/HiEa9yo

Here's a crude drawing of what I was describing. In my vision you actually keep Skylink's shape and work two stops into the line. I'm not sure if you keep the part where skylink would unnecessarily bow out or not (not sure how much/little it impacts airfield ops). Additionally, I would think potentially if you have more people going into C/D you may need a mid-terminal Skylink stop, assuming you route moreof the passengers to a central security checkpoint at each than in the current scenario. Finally, the C-E connector is built to be basically the same as F.

I would think longer term you expand the new shape in a couple of ways.

1. If you need a few new RJ gates you do a stinger like B's or an island like E's.
2. If you need more gates that are sterile for international arrivals / more services than RJ's then you do a pier off of F (and it begins to look more like Houston.


Way, way down the road when A, C, and E reach the end of their useful lives you can start to re-shape these, too, but that's so far down the road it's pointless to even speculate. I dont think we "need" a radical re-do of DFW like LGA, JFK,etc as some posters have been discussing. We have an incredible airport that, like all, have wrinkles, and is now somewhat gate constrained.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:08 pm

Make that terminal F an L shape and then you can easily attach it to the skylink.
 
bob75013
Posts: 714
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:07 pm

william wrote:
You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport



Just to be clear: DFW public transit is a mess

1) You have light rail to Dallas out of the north side of the airport terminal A

2) You have light rail to Ft. Worth out of the north side of the airport terminal B

3) You have heavy rail miles away on the south side of the airport at Centreport.

Good planning would have resulted in a single transit hub. No good planning here.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 746
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
william wrote:
You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport



Just to be clear: DFW public transit is a mess

1) You have light rail to Dallas out of the north side of the airport terminal A

2) You have light rail to Ft. Worth out of the north side of the airport terminal B

3) You have heavy rail miles away on the south side of the airport at Centreport.

Good planning would have resulted in a single transit hub. No good planning here.


Also bear in mind that the light rail to Dallas is operated by Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART), the TEXRail to Fort Worth is operated by Trinity Metro (formerly the Fort Worth Transportation Authority) and the heavy rail at Centreport is operated by Trinity Railway Express, a joint venture of DART and Trinity Metro. There really isn't an umbrella entity which unifies transit agencies in North Texas the way New York City (MTA) or Chicago (RTA) does.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: (TBD)
 
klakzky123
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:05 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:17 pm

bob75013 wrote:
william wrote:
You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport



Just to be clear: DFW public transit is a mess

1) You have light rail to Dallas out of the north side of the airport terminal A

2) You have light rail to Ft. Worth out of the north side of the airport terminal B

3) You have heavy rail miles away on the south side of the airport at Centreport.

Good planning would have resulted in a single transit hub. No good planning here.


Sounds about right for public transit in Texas. DART per mile ridership is just a disaster. DFW has the largest light rail network in the US and the ridership is just pitiful. A little bit of extra planning would've gone a long way.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3024
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:21 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
william wrote:
You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport



Just to be clear: DFW public transit is a mess

1) You have light rail to Dallas out of the north side of the airport terminal A

2) You have light rail to Ft. Worth out of the north side of the airport terminal B

3) You have heavy rail miles away on the south side of the airport at Centreport.

Good planning would have resulted in a single transit hub. No good planning here.


Also bear in mind that the light rail to Dallas is operated by Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART), the TEXRail to Fort Worth is operated by Trinity Metro (formerly the Fort Worth Transportation Authority) and the heavy rail at Centreport is operated by Trinity Railway Express, a joint venture of DART and Trinity Metro. There really isn't an umbrella entity which unifies transit agencies in North Texas the way New York City (MTA) or Chicago (RTA) does.


Yes to everything you stated. It would be nice if there was a single hub. But its better than nothing.
 
dfdubflyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:01 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:46 pm

Why does it matter? They serve completely different populations.

When I lived in Dallas and took DART to DFW why on earth would it matter to me where people from Fort Worth came into the airport from?
 
User avatar
zululima
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:21 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:57 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
Sounds about right for public transit in Texas. DART per mile ridership is just a disaster. DFW has the largest light rail network in the US and the ridership is just pitiful. A little bit of extra planning would've gone a long way.


True, but things are getting better....slowly. Look at the current light rail network across the metroplex compared to a decade ago. New lines from both cities to DFW, Green line up the 35E corridor, connecting to Denton's A-Train. A few more additions and you might have something that resembles a network.

Also cool how each city has its own train sets and liveries for train aficionados.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
itchief
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:15 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:15 pm

bob75013 wrote:
william wrote:
You can now go from downtown Ft. Worth to DFW, this is big step forward in the Metroplex area.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpo ... fw-airport



Just to be clear: DFW public transit is a mess

1) You have light rail to Dallas out of the north side of the airport terminal A

2) You have light rail to Ft. Worth out of the north side of the airport terminal B

3) You have heavy rail miles away on the south side of the airport at Centreport.

Good planning would have resulted in a single transit hub. No good planning here.



People per square mile;
New York City area = 27,000
Chicago = 11,800
DFW = 3,800

Light Rail and mass transit are not the same animal in the DFW area as it is in other large metro areas.
 
DFW17L
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 am

Three rail systems, with a fourth coming, four very large freeways connecting, and located in the center of a large metro...I’m having a hard time finding any other city with with this type of transportation options at their airport.
 
bob75013
Posts: 714
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:26 am

dfdubflyer wrote:
Why does it matter? They serve completely different populations.

When I lived in Dallas and took DART to DFW why on earth would it matter to me where people from Fort Worth came into the airport from?


Here's why it matters. I've been talking to a guy from ATL who really wants to fly WN, but needs to get to FT. Worth. On weekdays and Saturdays he can take DART to Union station and switch to TRE to FT. Worth. But TRE doesn't run on Sundays and holidays. Then what??

I run into people out of Tarrant County at Love Field all the time.
 
jplatts
Topic Author
Posts: 2417
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:24 am

DFW17L wrote:
Three rail systems, with a fourth coming, four very large freeways connecting, and located in the center of a large metro...I’m having a hard time finding any other city with with this type of transportation options at their airport.


There are a few other U.S. airports that have multiple rail systems to the airport, including the following:
  • BWI has MARC, Amtrak, and the MTA Light Rail
  • DCA has the WMATA Metro and the VRE
  • ORD has the CTA "L" train and the Metra NCS train
  • MIA has Miami-Dade Transit Metrorail and Tri-Rail
  • EWR has Amtrak and NJ Transit

In Tokyo, (a) HND has the Tokyo Monorail and the Keikyu Airport line, and (b) NRT has the Narita Express, JR Narita Line, Keisei Skyliner, Keisei Main Line, and the Narita Sky Access Line.

In the Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto area, KIX has the Nankai Railway Airport Line and the JR West Kansai Airport Line.

In London, (a) LHR has Heathrow Express, TfL Rail, and the London Underground, (b) LGW has Gatwick Express, Southern, Thameslink, and Great Western Railway, (c) LTN has Thameslink and East Midlands Trains, and (d) STN has Stansted Express and CrossCountry.

As shown in the examples mentioned above, DFW isn't the only airport in the U.S. that have multiple rail systems serving the airport, and there are also other major commercial airports in some major world cities outside of the U.S. that have multiple rail systems serving the airport.
 
mfe777
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:35 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 am

Adding to this, the DART and Texrail stations will be connected by a short, covered walkway. If someone really needed to connect between the two systems, they could easily do this here. It's really a non-issue, as most people will take the TRE double decker trains if they are traveling between Dallas and Fort Worth, which have a more direct route, less stops, and are much quicker in travel time.
 
DFW17L
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:11 am

jplatts wrote:
DFW17L wrote:
Three rail systems, with a fourth coming, four very large freeways connecting, and located in the center of a large metro...I’m having a hard time finding any other city with with this type of transportation options at their airport.


There are a few other U.S. airports that have multiple rail systems to the airport, including the following:
  • BWI has MARC, Amtrak, and the MTA Light Rail
  • DCA has the WMATA Metro and the VRE
  • ORD has the CTA "L" train and the Metra NCS train
  • MIA has Miami-Dade Transit Metrorail and Tri-Rail
  • EWR has Amtrak and NJ Transit

In Tokyo, (a) HND has the Tokyo Monorail and the Keikyu Airport line, and (b) NRT has the Narita Express, JR Narita Line, Keisei Skyliner, Keisei Main Line, and the Narita Sky Access Line.

In the Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto area, KIX has the Nankai Railway Airport Line and the JR West Kansai Airport Line.

In London, (a) LHR has Heathrow Express, TfL Rail, and the London Underground, (b) LGW has Gatwick Express, Southern, Thameslink, and Great Western Railway, (c) LTN has Thameslink and East Midlands Trains, and (d) STN has Stansted Express and CrossCountry.

As shown in the examples mentioned above, DFW isn't the only airport in the U.S. that have multiple rail systems serving the airport, and there are also other major commercial airports in some major world cities outside of the U.S. that have multiple rail systems serving the airport.

Thanks, jplatts. Do these airports also have multiple freeways servicing them as well? And are they located centrally? I look forward to visiting the Japanese airports someday. FYI, the proposed bullet train between Dallas and Houston will use the Shinkansen technology. https://www.texascentral.com/
 
khinstorff
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:43 pm

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:41 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/HiEa9yo

Here's a crude drawing of what I was describing. In my vision you actually keep Skylink's shape and work two stops into the line. I'm not sure if you keep the part where skylink would unnecessarily bow out or not (not sure how much/little it impacts airfield ops). Additionally, I would think potentially if you have more people going into C/D you may need a mid-terminal Skylink stop, assuming you route moreof the passengers to a central security checkpoint at each than in the current scenario. Finally, the C-E connector is built to be basically the same as F.

I would think longer term you expand the new shape in a couple of ways.

1. If you need a few new RJ gates you do a stinger like B's or an island like E's.
2. If you need more gates that are sterile for international arrivals / more services than RJ's then you do a pier off of F (and it begins to look more like Houston.


Way, way down the road when A, C, and E reach the end of their useful lives you can start to re-shape these, too, but that's so far down the road it's pointless to even speculate. I dont think we "need" a radical re-do of DFW like LGA, JFK,etc as some posters have been discussing. We have an incredible airport that, like all, have wrinkles, and is now somewhat gate constrained.


This looks fantastic, thanks. Looking forward to a theoretical G and H, do you envision head houses built (similar to the proposed structure between 4 & 5 at LAX) at the ends of E & F?
 
dfdubflyer
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:01 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:25 pm

khinstorff wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/HiEa9yo
This looks fantastic, thanks. Looking forward to a theoretical G and H, do you envision head houses built (similar to the proposed structure between 4 & 5 at LAX) at the ends of E & F?


If we're talking 25+ years out when the time comes to re-do A, C, and E, then I would see them replacing the C shape with the long pier (a la "F"). You'd then have two big central headhouses with long legs going N/S from it with skylink and the current skybridges helping connections. If they need 5-10 gates added you add a node off of the leg where the skylink stations are (like Houston's shape but N/S rather than E/W).

Honestly when it really begins evolving into full build-out of the shape is where I start to be unsure what you do with some logistics. If I arrive at the far north end of the west terminal do I have to go all the way back to the headhouse to get my bag and airport transit? I guess that's how Denver works but that's way less convenient for locals than the current setup (although I'm sure AA would love it). Another downside of the very long-term build out of this idea is that you only have terminal parking at D and C which is some primo revenue DFW would lose out on. Furthermore if the only terminals with exit/entry become C/D then you'd have a very isolated DART/TEXrail station up by old A/B. If you were to do another central headhouse I'd think it would be between old A/B over Intl parkway to remedy that issue, and most of DFW's population comes into the airport from the north side so you'd give them a nice entry.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4013
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Dallas/Fort Worth Aviation Thread (DFW/DAL) - 2019

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:41 pm

bob75013 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
Why does it matter? They serve completely different populations.

When I lived in Dallas and took DART to DFW why on earth would it matter to me where people from Fort Worth came into the airport from?


Here's why it matters. I've been talking to a guy from ATL who really wants to fly WN, but needs to get to FT. Worth. On weekdays and Saturdays he can take DART to Union station and switch to TRE to FT. Worth. But TRE doesn't run on Sundays and holidays. Then what??

I run into people out of Tarrant County at Love Field all the time.

No need to go to Union. Green, yellow and TRE connect at Victory, one less stop each way.
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