FWIW, I really don't see DL and NK as competitors, so to speak. Each one caters to an entirely different type of traveler. NK goes for the VERY price sensitive customer. I would venture to say some of NK customers wouldn't even be flying unless NK existed.

I think DL has been very vocal in essentially saying they don't want NK passengers. Sure, DL offers BE, but really they offer BE to encourage people to buy-up.

As long as they cater to different markets, my guess is they will continue to co-exist in DTW peacefully. It's when one crosses over that the gloves will come out.

klm617 wrote:

Also if I can save $300 on a round trip from DTW-ANC and get a nonstop I'm on it no matter how much my land and sea package costs.

It's unlikely that you'd experience those savings though in this hypothetical. Travel between ANC and the United States really isn't that expensive given the length of haul partially because it's often such a lucrative cargo market.

Off-peak round-trip fares often hover around $300 even from DTW, and in peak Summer they hover in the mid-$500s again even from DTW via SEA/PDX/DEN/etc. Combine that with the economics of such a long non-stop for NK and they simply aren't going to be able to discount that much while remaining profitable. Finally, as you've mentioned, they wouldn't have any non-stop competition on the route, which is actually pretty uncommon for NK (they only serve something like 40 markets where they're the only player, and only one in/out of DTW). That being the case, why would they discount below one-stop competing fares if they're the only game in town? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

klm617 wrote:

Detroit already has a decent O/D to ANC with zero competition. It is one of the top O/D markets that is not served out of Detroit nonstop.

I think I believe that, but what's your source?

Is the LH lounge accessible to any Star Alliance member? Legitimately asking for a friend.

flymco753 wrote:

Is the LH lounge accessible to any Star Alliance member? Legitimately asking for a friend.

It’s accessible to Star Gold, United Club, anyone traveling in Business or (including domestic) First Class, Priority Pass and probably some others I can’t think of at the moment. Of course, you can always purchase a day pass. A couple of points- they may restrict access around the time of the LH departure, and you’re suppose to be flying LH, UA or AC to enter the lounge but as it’s not usually busy, they typically don’t care.

Note that the lounge is divided between a sucky section (most people) and Senator Lounge (you’d know if you qualified). The booze is usually pretty good in the sucky section though.

compensateme wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Is the LH lounge accessible to any Star Alliance member? Legitimately asking for a friend.

It’s accessible to Star Gold, United Club, anyone traveling in Business or (including domestic) First Class, Priority Pass and probably some others I can’t think of at the moment. Of course, you can always purchase a day pass. A couple of points- they may restrict access around the time of the LH departure, and you’re suppose to be flying LH, UA or AC to enter the lounge but as it’s not usually busy, they typically don’t care.

Note that the lounge is divided between a sucky section (most people) and Senator Lounge (you’d know if you qualified). The booze is usually pretty good in the sucky section though.

One of my colleagues is a United Club member but is flying JetBlue and is unsure, he'll be happy, thank you for the clarification.

flymco753 wrote:

One of my colleagues is a United Club member but is flying JetBlue and is unsure, he'll be happy, thank you for the clarification.

I don't think your colleague will be admitted as my hunch is UA club entry policy will apply which requires a same-day ticket on United or presumably a Star Carrier.

winginit wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

One of my colleagues is a United Club member but is flying JetBlue and is unsure, he'll be happy, thank you for the clarification.

I don't think your colleague will be admitted as my hunch is UA club entry policy will apply which requires a same-day ticket on United or presumably a Star Carrier.

How do VS pax get access to DL clubs? I wonder if it has to do with the partnership.

flymco753 wrote:

winginit wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

One of my colleagues is a United Club member but is flying JetBlue and is unsure, he'll be happy, thank you for the clarification.

I don't think your colleague will be admitted as my hunch is UA club entry policy will apply which requires a same-day ticket on United or presumably a Star Carrier.

How do VS pax get access to DL clubs? I wonder if it has to do with the partnership.

In many situations they actually can't unless they have elite status. Just a few weeks back I was denied Sky Club entry (I have a membership via Amex Platinum) because I was flying AM instead of DL (AM marketed and operated - maybe had I booked DL* I would have been admitted but I didn't ask). Everyone has really tightened the purse strings as of this year.

winginit wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

winginit wrote:

I don't think your colleague will be admitted as my hunch is UA club entry policy will apply which requires a same-day ticket on United or presumably a Star Carrier.

How do VS pax get access to DL clubs? I wonder if it has to do with the partnership.

In many situations they actually can't unless they have elite status. Just a few weeks back I was denied Sky Club entry (I have a membership via Amex Platinum) because I was flying AM instead of DL (AM marketed and operated - maybe had I booked DL* I would have been admitted but I didn't ask). Everyone has really tightened the purse strings as of this year.

Huh that's interesting. AM is Skyteam too. I wonder what they'll do since AM has a sizable operation out of DTW now. MEX, MTY, QRO, & BJX are all daily.

flymco753 wrote:

winginit wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

How do VS pax get access to DL clubs? I wonder if it has to do with the partnership.

In many situations they actually can't unless they have elite status. Just a few weeks back I was denied Sky Club entry (I have a membership via Amex Platinum) because I was flying AM instead of DL (AM marketed and operated - maybe had I booked DL* I would have been admitted but I didn't ask). Everyone has really tightened the purse strings as of this year.

Huh that's interesting. AM is Skyteam too. I wonder what they'll do since AM has a sizable operation out of DTW now. MEX, MTY, QRO, & BJX are all daily.

I can't speak to how crowded the Sky Clubs get in DTW as I'm not there but a few times a year; but when I was denied it was in LAX where there's a huge AM operation and the Sky Clubs get jam packed at peak hours.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Curious how big exactly is the club?

Not that big. Here’s a recent review of the non-Senator portion:

https://milestomemories.boardingarea.co ... ge-review/

It’s open from 5AM (11AM Sunday) until 8:30PM. I’ve been in it many times; it’s never busy sans a hour or two before the LH flight. Most people don’t seem to be aware the lounge exists — for example, a domestic F ticket on UA entitles you admission, but I’ve literally been the only person in there at times. Food and libations are way better than DL, and it’s quiet/private. Can’t beat it.

@wingintl - LH’s policy has long been to require a same day departure ticket on a Star carrier, but as I’ve mentioned l, they’re very lienent here. YMMV.

The last time I was in the DTW SkyClubs, the booze was self service and nobody gave a damn if I overpoured. Most of my travels this past year have involved DTW, SNA and SAN and I have my timing precise so that I generally end up arriving at the boarding area during the boarding process.

Walking on coals, I guess, but have only missed one flight. Would much rather stop at Checkers and scarf some beef-like sandwhich down my throat than get toppled over me in the SkyClub, or get sick because somebody had to bring their little one in.

Delta's News Hub provided fact sheets for each hub. I found it very interesting:

Dom Int'l Total Peak Day
Dest Dest Dest Flights
ATL 145 60 205 940
DTW 103 18 121 460
MSP 106 18 124 369

ATL is no surprise, but I was surprised at the difference in peak day flights between DTW and MSP. I always thought they ran neck-to-neck on daily flights.

drdisque wrote:

If NK does go to ANC, it will be to SEA or PDX or OAK, places that have decent O&D to ANC that can probably be fare stimulated.

It would probably be through OAK and/or SEA. NK doesnt like PDX at all. But I highly doubt that NK will ever be in Alaska...

EBiafore99 wrote:

Delta's News Hub provided fact sheets for each hub. I found it very interesting:

Dom Int'l Total Peak Day
Dest Dest Dest Flights
ATL 145 60 205 940
DTW 103 18 121 460
MSP 106 18 124 369

ATL is no surprise, but I was surprised at the difference in peak day flights between DTW and MSP. I always thought they ran neck-to-neck on daily flights.

I sort of have to question the accuracy of that. DTW's stats seem pretty much correct at ~460 flights, but MSP and ATL seem a little off. IIRC, ATL has over 1,000 daily flights on DL, and this summer, MSP was around ~440 flights. Not sure if all of that is 100% accurate.

N292UX wrote:

EBiafore99 wrote:

Delta's News Hub provided fact sheets for each hub. I found it very interesting:

Dom Int'l Total Peak Day
Dest Dest Dest Flights
ATL 145 60 205 940
DTW 103 18 121 460
MSP 106 18 124 369

ATL is no surprise, but I was surprised at the difference in peak day flights between DTW and MSP. I always thought they ran neck-to-neck on daily flights.

I sort of have to question the accuracy of that. DTW's stats seem pretty much correct at ~460 flights, but MSP and ATL seem a little off. IIRC, ATL has over 1,000 daily flights on DL, and this summer, MSP was around ~440 flights. Not sure if all of that is 100% accurate.

It’s not off. The numbers you’re thinking of are for the peak summer season, the numbers above are updated by DL monthly... and given January/February are about the slowest months of the year, you’re comparing opposites. MSP has larger gauge, so physical seating differental is much smaller. MSP also gets a much lager boost than DTW for the six-week peak summer.

compensateme wrote:

N292UX wrote:

EBiafore99 wrote:

Delta's News Hub provided fact sheets for each hub. I found it very interesting:

Dom Int'l Total Peak Day
Dest Dest Dest Flights
ATL 145 60 205 940
DTW 103 18 121 460
MSP 106 18 124 369

ATL is no surprise, but I was surprised at the difference in peak day flights between DTW and MSP. I always thought they ran neck-to-neck on daily flights.

I sort of have to question the accuracy of that. DTW's stats seem pretty much correct at ~460 flights, but MSP and ATL seem a little off. IIRC, ATL has over 1,000 daily flights on DL, and this summer, MSP was around ~440 flights. Not sure if all of that is 100% accurate.

It’s not off. The numbers you’re thinking of are for the peak summer season, the numbers above are updated by DL monthly... and given January/February are about the slowest months of the year, you’re comparing opposites. MSP has larger gauge, so physical seating differental is much smaller. MSP also gets a much lager boost than DTW for the six-week peak summer.

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

FA9295 wrote:

drdisque wrote:

If NK does go to ANC, it will be to SEA or PDX or OAK, places that have decent O&D to ANC that can probably be fare stimulated.

It would probably be through OAK and/or SEA. NK doesnt like PDX at all. But I highly doubt that NK will ever be in Alaska...

SEA-ANC is already pretty crowded plus NK only serves one destination year round from SEA and that's LAS

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Would be great to see NK give DTW-ANC a try.

I think even Spirit knows that what would be 6+ hours aboard their aircraft would push the bounds of sanity.

At nearly 3,000 miles, DTW-ANC would be NK's longest route by quite a margin (FLL-LIM is 2,627 miles).

People go to Alaska for what is often high-end tourism, and they sure as hell aren't going to fly Spirit to get there.

FLL-SEA is just a hair longer than FLL-LIM.

While personally I'd love to see ANC from DTW on NK, I don't see it ever happening. Although a Neo could do it without a problem. I can't believe DL doesn't do it in the summer, NW did it for years and it was always packed.

klm617 wrote:

FA9295 wrote:

drdisque wrote:

If NK does go to ANC, it will be to SEA or PDX or OAK, places that have decent O&D to ANC that can probably be fare stimulated.

It would probably be through OAK and/or SEA. NK doesnt like PDX at all. But I highly doubt that NK will ever be in Alaska...

SEA-ANC is already pretty crowded plus NK only serves one destination year round from SEA and that's LAS

True, but SEA-ANC demand is pretty much infinite, whereas PDX-ANC actually has a legitimate threshold.

Also, if NK did end up starting SEA-ANC, they would likely be able to steal some customers from AS and DL with their much cheaper fares.

What I've noticed about NK is that they typically add very popular routes with lots of competition, and end up cutting routes with little (less) competition. Then they lower the prices on these very popular routes to something ridiculous, like $39 one-way in hopes of stealing customers from other airlines. But with the legacies implementing basic economy fares now, we'll see what happens to that kind of business model for them in the future, although I seriously doubt that AA/DL/UA will ever have $39 one-way fares on any route...

Sorry, that got a bit off-topic there...

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

N292UX wrote:

I sort of have to question the accuracy of that. DTW's stats seem pretty much correct at ~460 flights, but MSP and ATL seem a little off. IIRC, ATL has over 1,000 daily flights on DL, and this summer, MSP was around ~440 flights. Not sure if all of that is 100% accurate.

It’s not off. The numbers you’re thinking of are for the peak summer season, the numbers above are updated by DL monthly... and given January/February are about the slowest months of the year, you’re comparing opposites. MSP has larger gauge, so physical seating differental is much smaller. MSP also gets a much lager boost than DTW for the six-week peak summer.

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

It’s not. The industry standard for measuring size is ASM, which makes JFK #2.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Stupid question but when does DL start DTW A220 service? I know it’s on DFW but can’t remember when.

I saw my first one in person in DL colors today in DFW.

March 1st. The first A220 arrives in on a morning DFW to DTW flight a little after 11am, and that first A220 turns and leaves DTW back to DFW for the first time a little after noon. Plenty of seats still available if you are interested...

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

N292UX wrote:

I sort of have to question the accuracy of that. DTW's stats seem pretty much correct at ~460 flights, but MSP and ATL seem a little off. IIRC, ATL has over 1,000 daily flights on DL, and this summer, MSP was around ~440 flights. Not sure if all of that is 100% accurate.

It’s not off. The numbers you’re thinking of are for the peak summer season, the numbers above are updated by DL monthly... and given January/February are about the slowest months of the year, you’re comparing opposites. MSP has larger gauge, so physical seating differental is much smaller. MSP also gets a much lager boost than DTW for the six-week peak summer.

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

Enough of your misinformation - let's stick to facts please:

Full Year 2019 Delta Schedule

Largest Delta hubs by Seats
1. ATL 8.21M
2. DTW 2.72M
3. MSP 2.67M

Largest Delta hubs by Flights
1. ATL 58,102
2. DTW 24,530
3. MSP 22,972

Largest Delta hubs by ASMs
1. ATL 7.8B
2. JFK 3.1B
3. DTW 3.0B

Please correct your incorrect statement or it will be reported.

Do you by chance have those numbers for 2018 and 2017? It would be interesting to view and compare the YoY growth by each hub.

Since we're on the subject of MSP vs DTW, I thought I'd provide some factual stats/information to keep this thread productive. I've compiled together some data of daily flights from MSP & DTW to major west-coast markets. This data only represents Delta flights, and is for July 24, 2019:
MSP:
MSP-SEA: 7x daily
MSP-PDX: 6x daily
MSP-SFO: 7x daily
MSP-SMF: 3x daily
MSP-SJC: 3x daily
MSP-LAX: 9x daily
MSP-SNA: 3x daily
MSP-SAN: 5x daily
MSP-LAS: 7x daily
MSP-PHX: 5x daily
MSP-DEN: 6x daily
MSP-SLC: 6x daily
MSP-GEG: 4x daily
MSP-BOI: 3x daily
MSP-PSC: 2x daily
TOTAL: 76x daily

DTW:
DTW-SEA: 7x daily
DTW-PDX: 2x daily
DTW-SFO: 5x daily
DTW-SMF: 1x daily
DTW-SJC: 1x daily
DTW-LAX: 8x daily
DTW-SNA: 1x daily
DTW-SAN: 4x daily
DTW-LAS: 6x daily
DTW-PHX: 4x daily
DTW-DEN: 4x daily
DTW-SLC: 5x daily
DTW-GEG: 0x daily
DTW-BOI: 0x daily
DTW-PSC: 0x daily
TOTAL: 48x daily

Obviously MSP is going to have more west-coast flights than DTW. With that being said though, DTW does have more flights to east-coast markets like BOS, NYC, D.C. than MSP does. It's just a logistical way to spread out their route network operation, considering the fact that MSP and DTW are geographically close together (relatively speaking).

I might make an east-coast version of this later on, or someone else can do it if they want to.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

compensateme wrote:

It’s not off. The numbers you’re thinking of are for the peak summer season, the numbers above are updated by DL monthly... and given January/February are about the slowest months of the year, you’re comparing opposites. MSP has larger gauge, so physical seating differental is much smaller. MSP also gets a much lager boost than DTW for the six-week peak summer.

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

Enough of your misinformation - let's stick to facts please:

Full Year 2019 Delta Schedule

Largest Delta hubs by Seats
1. ATL 8.21M
2. DTW 2.72M
3. MSP 2.67M

Largest Delta hubs by Flights
1. ATL 58,102
2. DTW 24,530
3. MSP 22,972

Largest Delta hubs by ASMs
1. ATL 7.8B
2. JFK 3.1B
3. DTW 3.0B

Please correct your incorrect statement or it will be reported.

From the horses mouth Delta itself from an article dated as late as OCT 2018.

Broberg said the number of nonstop destinations and daily departures from the Twin Cities are as good or better than they were with Northwest. Delta has announced plans for new nonstop service to Seoul, South Korea, and wants to add service between the Twin Cities and Shanghai, China. Broberg said the merger has added value to the Twin Cities hub.

"We are a stronger hub here in Minneapolis than we were 10 years ago. We're still the second largest hub in the Delta network," she said.

I went back to the Delta profiles on each hub, and it appears Delta is very aware of the sensitivities to which hub is the 2nd biggest:

DTW - "Delta's 2nd largest hub, with premier connections to Asia & US East, West"

MSP - "Delta's 2nd largest connection hub & home in the north"

That clear's it up

Actually MSP & DTW are quite equal when it comes to everything else except for Florida, but that's because DTW-FL is much larger than MSP-FL.

Using June 21

MSP-BOS: 6x
MSP-BDL: 4x
MSP-JFK: 4x
MSP-LGA: 7x
MSP-EWR: 6x
MSP-PHL: 5x
MSP-DCA: 6x
MSP-BWI: 4x
MSP-IAD: 3x
MSP-RDU: 4x
MSP-CLT: 4x
MSP-BNA: 5x
MSP-MEM: 3x
MSP-JAX: 1x
MSP-MCO: 4x
MSP-TPA: 2x
MSP-RSW: 1x
MSP-MIA: 2x
MSP-FLL: 1x

DTW-BOS: 7x (more A321s)
DTW-BDL: 5x (NK might join, more)
DTW-JFK: 5x (all RJ, less)
DTW-LGA: 8x (more seats than MSP)
DTW-EWR: 7x (A220s)
DTW-PHL: 5x (less seats than MSP)
DTW-BWI: 5x (more seats than MSP)
DTW-IAD: 5x (all RJ)
DTW-DCA: 7x (more A321s)
DTW-RDU: 4x (nearly the same in seats)
DTW-CLT: 5x (1 more 717)
DTW-BNA: 6x (1 more A320)
DTW-MEM: 3x (same)
DTW-JAX: 2x
DTW-MCO: 6x
DTW-TPA: 4x
DTW-RSW: 2x
DTW-MIA: 2x (same)
DTW-FLL: 4x
DTW-PBI: 1x

So MSP is neck in neck in terms of larger east coast markets. However, DTW has PVD, PWM, BTV, HPN, ELM, and others that MSP doesnt have. Plus DTW blows MSP out of the water with intra Michigan flights.

Why does it seem that there is this constantly ongoing p*ssing contest between DTW & MSP!!?

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:

Stupid question but when does DL start DTW A220 service? I know it’s on DFW but can’t remember when.

I saw my first one in person in DL colors today in DFW.

Actually today, February 14. Saw one parked at A31 yesterday, presumably in preparation. First revenue arrival is DL0311 DFW-DTW at 11:14. First revenue departure is DL0308 DTW-DFW at 12:10.

lavalampluva wrote:

Why does it seem that there is this constantly ongoing p*ssing contest between DTW & MSP!!?

Left over NW beef.

lavalampluva wrote:

Why does it seem that there is this constantly ongoing p*ssing contest between DTW & MSP!!?

I don't see it as a pissing contest at all.

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

Enough of your misinformation - let's stick to facts please:

Full Year 2019 Delta Schedule

Largest Delta hubs by Seats
1. ATL 8.21M
2. DTW 2.72M
3. MSP 2.67M

Largest Delta hubs by Flights
1. ATL 58,102
2. DTW 24,530
3. MSP 22,972

Largest Delta hubs by ASMs
1. ATL 7.8B
2. JFK 3.1B
3. DTW 3.0B

Please correct your incorrect statement or it will be reported.

From the horses mouth Delta itself from an article dated as late as OCT 2018.

Broberg said the number of nonstop destinations and daily departures from the Twin Cities are as good or better than they were with Northwest. Delta has announced plans for new nonstop service to Seoul, South Korea, and wants to add service between the Twin Cities and Shanghai, China. Broberg said the merger has added value to the Twin Cities hub.

"We are a stronger hub here in Minneapolis than we were 10 years ago. We're still the second largest hub in the Delta network," she said.

Who cares? DL PR has identified DTW, MSP and NYC as its second largest hub. There was also an article in the Salt Lake media within the last two years that idenfitied it as DL’s second largest hub by mainline movements and it was true for literally for a couple weeks.

The industry standard for size is ASM, and JFK triumphs both DTW and MSP in that regard. DTW has lead MSP in ASM since the mid-1990s.

A few years ago, DL moved most of DTW’s traditional summer buildup (capacity) to ATL, as it focused on ditching CRJ and adding 717. This has held true since, yielding DTW with the smallest deviation between high and low point of all trunk DL hubs. It also meant that MSP “finally” surpassed DTW, at least for a few weeks, which was noted in a PR at the time (highlighting summer additions).

It’s been repeated endlessly here and within the media since, but Ed Bastian gave the best input: both DTW and MSP can be considered tied for DL’s second largest hub, since they constantly flip back-and-forth, and one year the hub that had more capacity, filled slightly less seats.

This isn’t going to change soon. DL’s going to continue to milk the feces out of the DTW and MSP local, limiting capacity. DTW will compete with ATL, NYC and BOS for connecting flows while MSP will face the same with ATL, SLC and SEA.

What's funny is DL didn't even react to NK and F9 being on AUS. This May, DL will fly 2x A319 and 1x 717, same as last year. The only difference is that the ticket prices have dropped, but not enough to even intrigue a budget flyer. F9 and NK will coexist on this route I believe.

DL immediately upgauged RDU to 3x A320 and 1x 717 from June. Ticket prices have barely changed, but DL adjusted RDU capacity to make sure they kept the spread from NK, however, they don't seem to care about F9. NK and F9 should coexist fine.

F9 jumped on LAS late, however LAS is one of those routes that anyone can be on like MCO because of the attraction to low prices. The more options you add, naturally, more passengers will appear. I think F9 should do fine on this route. DL and NK obviously see no threat. It's kind-of-but-not-really back fill from WN.

It won't be until someone adds something of the likes of CHS, SAV, SRQ, BHM, or OKC where DL will pull a few 717s or A320s out of nowhere like JAX.

flymco753 wrote:

What's funny is DL didn't even react to NK and F9 being on AUS. This May, DL will fly 2x A319 and 1x 717, same as last year. The only difference is that the ticket prices have dropped, but not enough to even intrigue a budget flyer. F9 and NK will coexist on this route I believe.

DL immediately upgauged RDU to 3x A320 and 1x 717 from June. Ticket prices have barely changed, but DL adjusted RDU capacity to make sure they kept the spread from NK, however, they don't seem to care about F9. NK and F9 should coexist fine.

F9 jumped on LAS late, however LAS is one of those routes that anyone can be on like MCO because of the attraction to low prices. The more options you add, naturally, more passengers will appear. I think F9 should do fine on this route. DL and NK obviously see no threat. It's kind-of-but-not-really back fill from WN.

It won't be until someone adds something of the likes of CHS, SAV, SRQ, BHM, or OKC where DL will pull a few 717s or A320s out of nowhere like JAX.

The clear indicator here is which markets have enough O/D traffic to justify flying them nonstop when NK moves in because even so that there is enough O/D traffic from Detroit to certain markets Delta wants those passengers to transfer in ATL to fill their planes where they have hourly service from ATL. Right now I think SRQ and VPS fit that bill. I was chuckling a few nights ago when during the 6 pm news there was an add from Sarasota on there and I just though Detroit doesn't even have daily year round service there but yet they buy add space in Detroit during the 6 pm news. Once again the airport needs to address these routes where there is potential for nonstop the people of Detroit shouldn't be used to prop up flights at other airports where there is a market for those flights right here at home. Even PD operates YQG-MLB.

flymco753 wrote:

What's funny is DL didn't even react to NK and F9 being on AUS. This May, DL will fly 2x A319 and 1x 717, same as last year. The only difference is that the ticket prices have dropped, but not enough to even intrigue a budget flyer. F9 and NK will coexist on this route I believe.

DL immediately upgauged RDU to 3x A320 and 1x 717 from June. Ticket prices have barely changed, but DL adjusted RDU capacity to make sure they kept the spread from NK, however, they don't seem to care about F9. NK and F9 should coexist fine.

F9 jumped on LAS late, however LAS is one of those routes that anyone can be on like MCO because of the attraction to low prices. The more options you add, naturally, more passengers will appear. I think F9 should do fine on this route. DL and NK obviously see no threat. It's kind-of-but-not-really back fill from WN.

It won't be until someone adds something of the likes of CHS, SAV, SRQ, BHM, or OKC where DL will pull a few 717s or A320s out of nowhere like JAX.

F9 is really no threat on any route until they come in with daily service. Like one poster said here you can't even keep up with where they fly from Detroit very user unfriendly airline in the Detroit market .

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

MSP is Delta's second largest hub and will be for the foreseeable future.

Enough of your misinformation - let's stick to facts please:

Full Year 2019 Delta Schedule

Largest Delta hubs by Seats
1. ATL 8.21M
2. DTW 2.72M
3. MSP 2.67M

Largest Delta hubs by Flights
1. ATL 58,102
2. DTW 24,530
3. MSP 22,972

Largest Delta hubs by ASMs
1. ATL 7.8B
2. JFK 3.1B
3. DTW 3.0B

Please correct your incorrect statement or it will be reported.

From the horses mouth Delta itself from an article dated as late as OCT 2018.

Broberg said the number of nonstop destinations and daily departures from the Twin Cities are as good or better than they were with Northwest. Delta has announced plans for new nonstop service to Seoul, South Korea, and wants to add service between the Twin Cities and Shanghai, China. Broberg said the merger has added value to the Twin Cities hub.

"We are a stronger hub here in Minneapolis than we were 10 years ago. We're still the second largest hub in the Delta network," she said.

Toby Broberg was wrong and misspoke plain and simple unless she was measuring hub size by number of employees, in which case MSP would technically be a larger hub than DTW on account of hub-based employee count driven by the MSP maintenance base. Using the objective and factual metrics that I posted above, DTW is a larger Delta hub than MSP by every capacity metric that exists for 2019. If you have a metric that shows otherwise please do share.

compensateme wrote:

DL’s going to continue to milk the feces out of the DTW and MSP local, limiting capacity. DTW will compete with ATL, NYC and BOS for connecting flows while MSP will face the same with ATL, SLC and SEA.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

winginit wrote:

Enough of your misinformation - let's stick to facts please:

Full Year 2019 Delta Schedule

Largest Delta hubs by Seats
1. ATL 8.21M
2. DTW 2.72M
3. MSP 2.67M

Largest Delta hubs by Flights
1. ATL 58,102
2. DTW 24,530
3. MSP 22,972

Largest Delta hubs by ASMs
1. ATL 7.8B
2. JFK 3.1B
3. DTW 3.0B

Please correct your incorrect statement or it will be reported.

From the horses mouth Delta itself from an article dated as late as OCT 2018.

Broberg said the number of nonstop destinations and daily departures from the Twin Cities are as good or better than they were with Northwest. Delta has announced plans for new nonstop service to Seoul, South Korea, and wants to add service between the Twin Cities and Shanghai, China. Broberg said the merger has added value to the Twin Cities hub.

"We are a stronger hub here in Minneapolis than we were 10 years ago. We're still the second largest hub in the Delta network," she said.

Toby Broberg was wrong. Using the objective and factual metrics that I posted above, DTW is a larger Delta hub than MSP by every capacity metric that exists for 2019.

So what you are saying then is Delta itself spreads false information when it suits their objective. Something I have also said which I get flamed for so which is it. Do we believe the numbers or do we believe what Delta and their media people tell us. Proof that the truth is always subjective and we can always make it what we want it to be depending on the agenda we are trying to push forth.

klm617 wrote:

So what you are saying then is Delta itself spreads false information when it suits their objective. Something I have also said which I get flamed for so which is it. Do we believe the numbers or do we believe what Delta and their media people tell us. Proof that the truth is always subjective and we can always make it what we want it to be depending on the agenda we are trying to push forth.

Maybe you misread my post? We don't know what metric Toby Broberg, Delta's VP of of Airport Ops at MSP, was using when she referred to MSP as DL's second largest hub. It could have been employee count, in which case she would likely be correct again given the maintenance and admin presences that exist at MSP but not DTW.

As for us, we believe the factual numbers, and factually speaking from a capacity standpoint and passenger enplanement standpoint DTW is a larger DL hub than MSP. The truth is not subjective when metrics are clear cut and identified. Keep up.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

So what you are saying then is Delta itself spreads false information when it suits their objective. Something I have also said which I get flamed for so which is it. Do we believe the numbers or do we believe what Delta and their media people tell us. Proof that the truth is always subjective and we can always make it what we want it to be depending on the agenda we are trying to push forth.

Maybe you misread my post? We don't know what metric Toby Broberg, Delta's VP of of Airport Ops at MSP, was using when she referred to MSP as DL's second largest hub. It could have been employee count, in which case she would likely be correct again given the maintenance and admin presences that exist at MSP but not DTW.

As for us, we believe the factual numbers, and factually speaking from a capacity standpoint and passenger enplanement standpoint DTW is a larger DL hub than MSP. The truth is not subjective when metrics are clear cut and identified. Keep up.

As far as passenger enplanements MSP is larger than Detroit. Destination wise MSP is bigger than Detroit again, seat capacity wise MSP is bigger than Detroit proving my point that we can put data out there to support whatever we want people to believe is the truth. Now you being a network planner as you say should be on the same page as the Delta VP of operations at MSP. I'm sure you she wasn't talking about employees she was talking about operation wise. So obviously Delta measures the size of their operation differently than you do so who is right and who is wrong ? Myself I believe Delta because I've been schooled here on a.net that Delta doesn't put false truths out there. Delta says MSP is number two and I have no reason not to believe them.

DTW's Delta employees will receive $92 Million as their share of profit.

Please don't compare to other stations and get into a debate. Just enjoy the DTW news.

klm617 wrote:

As far as passenger enplanements MSP is larger than Detroit. Destination wise MSP is bigger than Detroit again, seat capacity wise MSP is bigger than Detroit

Show your data or keep quiet.

2019 Delta Seats per the Current Schedule *Edited as initial numbers were directional. Now non-directional*
DTW: 32,689,990
MSP: 32,465,546

This is not subjective. You can show me no accurate data that claims the contrary. This is straight from OAG.

klm617 wrote:

Now you being a network planner as you say

I have never, not once, claimed to be a Network Planner. You are at this point just making things up which comes as a surprise to no one.

klm617 wrote:

I'm sure you she wasn't talking about employees she was talking about operation wise.

You are not sure. You have no idea.

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

As far as passenger enplanements MSP is larger than Detroit. Destination wise MSP is bigger than Detroit again, seat capacity wise MSP is bigger than Detroit

Show your data or keep quiet.

2019 Delta Seats per the Current Schedule
DTW: 16,344,995
MSP: 16,232,773

This is not subjective. You can show me no accurate data that claims the contrary. This is straight from OAG.

klm617 wrote:

Now you being a network planner as you say

I have never, not once, claimed to be a Network Planner. You are at this point just making things up which comes as a surprise to no one.

klm617 wrote:

I'm sure you she wasn't talking about employees she was talking about operation wise.

You are not sure. You have no idea.

You can't quote data on something that hasn't happened yet you need to go by the full year 2018 states. One month into 2019 means nothing.

klm617 wrote:

You can't quote data on something that hasn't happened yet you need to go by the full year 2018 states. One month into 2019 means nothing.

Then by all means, have a look at full year 2018 data, again straight from OAG:

Delta Flights
DTW: 287,260
MSP: 272,530

Delta Seats
DTW: 32.1M
MSP: 31.7M

Delta ASMs
DTW: 34.4B
MSP: 32.8B

Very much looking forward to your data that argues to the contrary. You do have data to back your claims right?

winginit wrote:

klm617 wrote:

You can't quote data on something that hasn't happened yet you need to go by the full year 2018 states. One month into 2019 means nothing.

Then by all means, have a look at full year 2018 data, again straight from OAG:

Delta Flights
DTW: 287,260
MSP: 272,530

Delta Seats
DTW: 32.1M
MSP: 31.7M

Delta ASMs
DTW: 34.4B
MSP: 32.8B

Very much looking forward to your data that argues to the contrary. You do have data to back your claims right?

I was talking about the emplaned passenger stats.