trex8
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:41 pm

Not seen anything that eg CX not happy with A359 HKG-MAD, HKG-EWR or CI TPE- ONT, TPE-FRA. Both those CX routes longer than DTW-PVG and CIs longer than DTW-PEK and PVG (at least they way they fly to Europe). But IIRC CX operating at 270 or 275K MTOW. Can our resident CX A359 pilot confirm.
Last edited by trex8 on Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
7673mech
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:46 pm

Mrakula wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted. He tells me that on flights such as DTW-PVG/PEK it often can’t take a full load of passengers and cargo. So if the flight is full of revenue passengers then some cargo is left behind and if the flight has non-rev’s then cargo goes and non-rev’s frequently get left behind.

Aside from what he is telling me, I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo. This seems a bit extreme to me. I’ve heard of leaving a few non-rev’s behind but 62 is crazy.

I don’t know the technical aspects of the A359 but are there different variations of this aircraft with different payloads abilities? To put it simply: Did Delta buy the cheap A359’s to get a deal? (Obviously the word “cheap” is relative so please no snarky comments about symantics). I ask this because I don’t recall hearing Delta’s 77L’s ever being weight restricted, except for maybe ATL-JNB occasionally in the summer.


Hard to believe. Zeke reported on inaugural flight HKG-EWR:
last year
The EWR flight with the A359 is planned at over 33 tonnes less fuel and about half hour quicker than the 77W (over that range it lifts about 5 tonnes more total payload than a 77W). The SFO flight is 23 tonnes less fuel.

Even if it is for 275t variat is still almost 1000sm furter then DTW-PVG!

There should be other operational rasons or your source is not thrust worthy


The operational reason: Your compairing eastbound to westbound. Huge difference.
 
Varsity1
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:58 pm

DGVT wrote:
Delta is going to get rid all of them because the Anet rumor that it can't do LAX-SYD is true.


That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.
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zeke
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:01 am

7673mech wrote:
The operational reason: Your compairing eastbound to westbound. Huge difference.


Difference on a 7000 nm flight is 30-60 minutes normally between east and west, eastbound PACOTS westbound Polar. Not a lot of diffence in burns.

We take more cargo eastbound with the shorter flight times, that is not to do with the aircraft, it is just the general direction of air cargo. Our freighter aircraft also go to NA heavy and come back light.
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:15 am

jagraham wrote:
DL has 268t A359s.

:shakehead: :shakehead:

They've been uprated to 275T for several months now.




jagraham wrote:
the 280t non-ULR variant is a ways out

Not anymore.

It was made available 2yrs earlier than initially advertised.
MSN219 (EC-MXV for IB) was the first delivery of a non-ULR @ 280T capability.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ewt340
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:18 am

They HATED it!

Jk, they loved it, that's why they are taking all the aircraft they ordered.
 
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zeke
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:20 am

Varsity1 wrote:

That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.


You mean like this thread ?

Seems most of the gripes are to do with what DL didn’t order as options

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delt ... -a350.html
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TMccrury
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:32 am

A friend of mine, is a pilot on the A350 for DL. He mentioned to me, not long ago, they are great jets. However, they are still teething a bit and have poopy diapers from time to time. That is lessening as time progresses. Before moving to the A350, he was a pilot on the 777's and absolutely loved that plane. I then had a mental picture of an A350 with diaper and asked him who got to change it? He simply said, the newest person on the job.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:51 am

strfyr51 wrote:
My Nephew works for Delta and he claims they're quite enamored with it. I would think they would be if for No other reason than Airbus is kissing their Butts about now because they do NOT want to see them with buyers remorse for the A321's the A330's or the A350's especially seeing as how they still have Boeing as a supplier as well.


I doubt Airbus sees Boeing as a threat. Like you said, Airbus is kissing their rear-ends. As long as that continues there will be no new Boeings painted with a widget on them. Boeing knows this as well. Any future Delta bids will probably go to the most junior Boeing sales reps. The senior ones know it is a lost cause and won't waste their time.
 
LDRA
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:02 am

How is reliability? I remember there was a fairly serious hydraulic issue causing divert or aircraft on ground
 
Varsity1
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:38 am

zeke wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

That's not a rumor. Go to APC, pilots will tell you straight from the horses mouth.

The pilots aren't impressed by it.


You mean like this thread ?

Seems most of the gripes are to do with what DL didn’t order as options

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delt ... -a350.html



No matter what evidence is presented. You would never accept the idea that an airbus product is inferior.
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scbriml
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:38 am

N212R wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DL would have know exactly what the weight variant they selected could do and its performance guarantees would have been written in the contract. If they didn't, then they were dumber than dumb.


First you say this...

DL would not be the first airline to regret buying lower weight variants of a plane. You get what you pay for.


Then you contradict yourself by saying this. Which is it? Did they understand what they were ordering OR not?


Not contradictory at all.

1 - I was pointing out that DL would have know exactly what they were getting (despite claims that they were somehow 'tricked' by Airbus).

2 - DL can also subsequently regret buying cheaper, lower-weight variants.

1 doesn't mean 2 isn't possible. 2 doesn't invalidate 1.
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N649DL
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:55 am

I think the question should be how does the A350 compare to the 744 in DL's book which they replaced? Is it making money for them based on the money they have to spend on brand new frames versus the 744s that were already paid for with brand new interiors and a slew of crippling MX issues? Fuel burn alone on stage length, I'm sure DL is very satisfied compared to the 744.
Last edited by N649DL on Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:16 am

So I saw this thread and thought "oh it would be interesting to know how DL is finding their A350s" only to read two pages and found the usual Airbus vs Boeing, some waffle about other airlines, the value of underbelly cargo vs pax being left without an actual answer.

Yes or no?
 
klkla
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:27 am

zeke wrote:
The 787 many years in a row were outsold by A330s, apart from the initial rush to order them at the start, more recent years has not seen it selling that well.


That statement is not correct. The 787 initially sold very well (fastest selling widebody in history, actually) and then sales stalled during the introduction debacle and the A330 certainly benefited from that situation. But more recently the 787 has been outselling the A330 and A350 combined.
 
deltadudejg
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:09 am

I'll add to the rumors. Buddy of mine was talking to the DL 350 pilots and they told him it wasn't performing as well as expected in terms of range.
Aviation Enthusiast working in Airport Operations
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:18 am

It hasn’t crashed so I’d say great!
 
IPFreely
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 am

It looks like the sources have decided, 7-5, that the A350 is great.

Voting "yes" on the A350 -- enamored, saving a ton, ecstatic, better than Boeing, great, and hasn't crashed:

strfyr51 wrote:
My Nephew works for Delta and he claims they're quite enamored with it.


DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel.


william wrote:
To answer the OP's question, I bet Delta is ecstatic with the A350.


BlueSky1976 wrote:
For Delta (and many others), it IS better than the competing boeing products.


RB211trent wrote:
The Airbus option obviously IS better, you seem to be in denial.


TMccrury wrote:
A friend of mine, is a pilot on the A350 for DL. He mentioned to me, not long ago, they are great jets.


QueenoftheSkies wrote:
It hasn’t crashed so I’d say great!


Voting "no" on the A350, disappointed, not living up to expectations, pilots not impressed, and not performing well:

Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted.


Michiganatc wrote:
I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo.


727200 wrote:
I have heard this as well from DL internals that the plane isn't living up to expectations and Airbus claims that were made to get the contracts signed.


Varsity1 wrote:
The pilots aren't impressed by it.


deltadudejg wrote:
I'll add to the rumors. Buddy of mine was talking to the DL 350 pilots and they told him it wasn't performing as well as expected in terms of range.


On further review it might be a draw at 5-5. Two of the "yes" voters don't claim any sources and appear to blindly praise anything and everything Airbus for some reason.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:16 am

I think its too under capacity. They would have been better off getting the -1000 or the 777-300ER. The A350 seems to be way too small especially for such a large legacy carrier.
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sabby
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:10 am

Casablanca wrote:
At my airline the 350 has quite a bad rep with stay passengers....often has 50-100 seats open and can't accommodate staff, or if you get on the latest issue has been a downgrade from business to Y class due to weight and balance issues, needing more aft cg......while common on small turbo props I have never seen this in wide body ac.
But back to original post, it is kind of interesting that Delta is enamored with the 350 and at same time deferring deliveries?


Wow ! Leaving 50-100 seats open is huge ! Which airlines and route is that ?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:29 am

IPFreely wrote:
It looks like the sources have decided, 7-5, that the A350 is great.

Voting "yes" on the A350 -- enamored, saving a ton, ecstatic, better than Boeing, great, and hasn't crashed:

strfyr51 wrote:
My Nephew works for Delta and he claims they're quite enamored with it.


DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel.


william wrote:
To answer the OP's question, I bet Delta is ecstatic with the A350.


BlueSky1976 wrote:
For Delta (and many others), it IS better than the competing boeing products.


RB211trent wrote:
The Airbus option obviously IS better, you seem to be in denial.


TMccrury wrote:
A friend of mine, is a pilot on the A350 for DL. He mentioned to me, not long ago, they are great jets.


QueenoftheSkies wrote:
It hasn’t crashed so I’d say great!


Voting "no" on the A350, disappointed, not living up to expectations, pilots not impressed, and not performing well:

Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted.


Michiganatc wrote:
I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo.


727200 wrote:
I have heard this as well from DL internals that the plane isn't living up to expectations and Airbus claims that were made to get the contracts signed.


Varsity1 wrote:
The pilots aren't impressed by it.


deltadudejg wrote:
I'll add to the rumors. Buddy of mine was talking to the DL 350 pilots and they told him it wasn't performing as well as expected in terms of range.


On further review it might be a draw at 5-5. Two of the "yes" voters don't claim any sources and appear to blindly praise anything and everything Airbus for some reason.


If 4 different posters are commenting on the A350 having performance, range or payload issues, then I think it is worth discussing how well the 268t A350 performs on 6000nm+ routes from DTW to China. The A350 is a significant payload reduction from what the 747s could carry.

Cargo demand increased 9% in 2017. Delta may be regretting decisions from 4 years ago to buy the lower MTOW 268t A350 to replace 747s since the US economy is very strong and cargo demand is up. This doesn’t mean the A350 is a bad plane or isn’t meeting its contractual requirements.
 
xwb565
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:35 am

Delta has the 275t variant not the 268t. This video from Sam Chui https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3yUhEjzVcc shows that the aircraft carried 50t of payload on a 12.5 hr flight at a takeoff weight of 604.1klbs or 1.5t bellow mtow. All customer statements so far suggest that the aircraft is if anything performing better than spec. There is even more real world data about the a350 available in the tech/ops forum for those interested.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:53 am

Delta have 275t variants, which is more than capable for Delta. Pretty sure CX have the 275t version running IAD-HKG, EWR-HKG, and other routes longer than what DL operates with the A359.
 
tjerome
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:42 am

Casablanca wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel. I was flying JFK-NRT-MNL on the 744 we had to return to the gate to top off with fuel because we taxied too long and we couldnt make it to NRT with the fuel on board.

But that would happen in the 350 as well....we don't "fill her up" at the gas station like most cars, you have very detailed and accurate flight plan, maybe 20 mins for taxi average( depending on statistical average)......if one day you wait an hour they were probably below their min take off fuel. In current company I could use contingency fuel on ground- previous airline had a min fuel brake release fuel for takeoff, and if below that number not legal to take off


Being objective here, it is about the payload just as much as it is the planning of taxi and contingency fuel.

If that 747 was going from JFK to LAX instead of NRT it surely would've had the payload to carry more taxi/contingency fuel to accommodate the longer taxi vs. the trip to NRT. That is if the dispatcher had expected the longer taxi time.
 
questions
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:28 am

If anything, DL needs to get rid of those lumbering 739’s! :duck:

I doubt DL is not pleased with their A359’s. Sure there may be some new aircraft variance in performance. If it’s not within an acceptable range we’d problably hear from other operators as well.

Why did DL defer their 10 remaining A359’s?

DL also seems to be light on widebody orders given the age of their 767’s. Even with their international strategy — DL hub to partner hub with some select exceptions — I still can’t believe DL is not leaving growth opportunities on the table by not being a little more aggressive in its fleet renewal/expansion plans.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:35 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
Pretty sure CX have the 275t version running IAD-HKG, EWR-HKG, and other routes longer than what DL operates with the A359.

CX's A359s aircraft were uprated to 277T, and IAD is operated with an A35K not A359.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:43 am

questions wrote:
If anything, DL needs to get rid of those lumbering 739’s! :duck:

I doubt DL is not pleased with their A359’s. Sure there may be some new aircraft variance in performance. If it’s not within an acceptable range we’d problably hear from other operators as well.

Why did DL defer their 10 remaining A359’s?

DL also seems to be light on widebody orders given the age of their 767’s. Even with their international strategy — DL hub to partner hub with some select exceptions — I still can’t believe DL is not leaving growth opportunities on the table by not being a little more aggressive in its fleet renewal/expansion plans.


Not really, they have around 30 A330neo's on order. That will take care of the 767 fleet. Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities in favor of flowing people over to KLM and Air France. That's why you have seen new TATL service to AMS and CDG from cities like MCO, TPA, and IND. So Delta really doesn't need a one for one replacement for the 767.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:19 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Pretty sure CX have the 275t version running IAD-HKG, EWR-HKG, and other routes longer than what DL operates with the A359.

CX's A359s aircraft were uprated to 277T, and IAD is operated with an A35K not A359.

Ok, even then only a 2t increase. And IAD has gone back and forth, there have been a few operated by the 359. But yes primarily the 35K
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities

Which, we should note, is not in any way a fact. :roll:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ba319-131
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Pretty sure CX have the 275t version running IAD-HKG, EWR-HKG, and other routes longer than what DL operates with the A359.

CX's A359s aircraft were uprated to 277T, and IAD is operated with an A35K not A359.


- IAD was downgraded to a 359 some time ago.
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:34 am

thepinkmachine wrote:
Perhaps the issue is that the 268T variant is not doing what it was expected/guaranteed to do? ie. it doesn’t carry the payload it was supposed to on paper at 268T.

Increasing MTOW is a solution, but it costs money in OEM fees, but also nav/landing charges etc.

Heard similar rumors from some sources at QR, so perhaps there is some issue...


Yes, perhaps there is an issue. Or perhaps there is not . But there are other drivers to suggest it.

Delta cancelling Dreamliners, ignoring 73MAX, ordering A350, A330NEO, lots of NEO's and beating Boeing in court on the A220, didn't land well everywhere.
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sxf24
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:06 pm

727200 wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted. He tells me that on flights such as DTW-PVG/PEK it often can’t take a full load of passengers and cargo. So if the flight is full of revenue passengers then some cargo is left behind and if the flight has non-rev’s then cargo goes and non-rev’s frequently get left behind.

Aside from what he is telling me, I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo. This seems a bit extreme to me. I’ve heard of leaving a few non-rev’s behind but 62 is crazy.

I don’t know the technical aspects of the A359 but are there different variations of this aircraft with different payloads abilities? To put it simply: Did Delta buy the cheap A359’s to get a deal? (Obviously the word “cheap” is relative so please no snarky comments about symantics). I ask this because I don’t recall hearing Delta’s 77L’s ever being weight restricted, except for maybe ATL-JNB occasionally in the summer.




I have heard this as well from DL internals that the plane isn't living up to expectations and Airbus claims that were made to get the contracts signed. It seems it can fly far or carry a heavy load but it can't do both at the same time. As such DL is disappointed in its performance and trying to get Airbus to change the rating on the plane. The issue is the DL feels that Airbus should do it for free and Airbus wants DL to pay for it. So until that happens, its SOP.


Delta is very good at negotiating guarantees and Airbus is, historically, good at overpromising and underdelivering on performance. This is usually settled with MTOW upgrades or discounts on future airplanes.

Boeing is much more conservative with guarantees, which is one reason they’ve lost recent campaigns at Delta.
 
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
I think its too under capacity. They would have been better off getting the -1000 or the 777-300ER. The A350 seems to be way too small especially for such a large legacy carrier.

DL is being very careful to keep seat counts under check. They don’t want to be in a situation where they have too much capacity, especially in the bust cycles of the economy. This is why the 777 is remaining 9Y, although PR will tell you it’s because DL cares so much about their Y pax.
 
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zeke
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:42 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
No matter what evidence is presented. You would never accept the idea that an airbus product is inferior.


What evidence was presented ? I assume you know the difference between evidence, opinion, and conjecture.


N649DL wrote:
I think the question should be how does the A350 compare to the 744 in DL's book which they replaced? Is it making money for them based on the money they have to spend on brand new frames versus the 744s that were already paid for with brand new interiors and a slew of crippling MX issues? Fuel burn alone on stage length, I'm sure DL is very satisfied compared to the 744.


When did DL operate the 744 on the DTW-PEK route, was this actually a 744 replacement or a new route ?

Samrnpage wrote:
So I saw this thread and thought "oh it would be interesting to know how DL is finding their A350s" only to read two pages and found the usual Airbus vs Boeing, some waffle about other airlines, the value of underbelly cargo vs pax being left without an actual answer.

Yes or no?


That about sums it up

klkla wrote:

That statement is not correct. The 787 initially sold very well (fastest selling widebody in history, actually) and then sales stalled during the introduction debacle and the A330 certainly benefited from that situation. But more recently the 787 has been outselling the A330 and A350 combined.


My comments were factual, after the introductory surge the A330 did end up outselling the 787.

Year 787 A330
2008 93 102
2009 -59 48
2010 -4 88
2011 13 95
2012 -12 68
2013 182 56
2014 41 164
2015 71 156
2016 58 106
2017 94 25

You can see when DL made their order in 2014 the A330 outsold the 787.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Wildlander
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:01 pm

I don't doubt that Delta is very good at negotiating guarantees but have to question the generality that Airbus historically overpromises and underdelivers on performance. It may well be true in the context of early production versions and for the launch customer airlines. The A350 XWB did indeed see the MTOW creep up prior to EIS. AFAIK Delta was not a launch customer so their A350 purchase and associated guarantees ought to have been founded on solid data. Can anyone provide firm evidence to the contrary? Airliners, new or old, have a tendency to disappoint range-wise for a multitude of reasons, one of which being that in a bid to outdo their competitors airlines have (had?) a habit of post-contract installing heavier cabin furnishings and service items. No idea if this was the case at Delta.
 
StTim
Posts: 3178
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:04 pm

Wildlander wrote:
I don't doubt that Delta is very good at negotiating guarantees but have to question the generality that Airbus historically overpromises and underdelivers on performance. It may well be true in the context of early production versions and for the launch customer airlines. The A350 XWB did indeed see the MTOW creep up prior to EIS. AFAIK Delta was not a launch customer so their A350 purchase and associated guarantees ought to have been founded on solid data. Can anyone provide firm evidence to the contrary? Airliners, new or old, have a tendency to disappoint range-wise for a multitude of reasons, one of which being that in a bid to outdo their competitors airlines have (had?) a habit of post-contract installing heavier cabin furnishings and service items. No idea if this was the case at Delta.


For recent new frames the A350 had one of the better weight control programmes during development. Yes it gained some flab but in the scheme of things it was well controlled.
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 549
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:12 pm

I read all the comments from DL A350 pilots. I would say it is roughly 2 to 1 against. There are many complaints about the tiny crew rest area, small size of the forward galley, humidity issues, complicated flight systems and difficulty in learning how to operate the aircraft. One pilot claimed an 80% sim fail rate.

A number of pilots expressed jealously because fellow AA and UA pilots "love the 787," and wish they felt the same way about the A359.

Several pilots did praise the safety systems and the overall technology, while still talking about the complexity.

Interesting comments, I would encourage folks to read.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
Eyad89
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:03 pm

sxf24 wrote:



Delta is very good at negotiating guarantees and Airbus is, historically, good at overpromising and underdelivering on performance.


yet, all airline CEOs who were asked about the A350 said that it beat the initial expectations, and that list includes the CEO of QR who's notoriously difficult to please.


sxf24 wrote:

This is usually settled with MTOW upgrades or discounts on future airplanes.

.



Airbus's MTOW upgrades a few years after EIS shows that the plane can take a higher structrual load than first promised. This is pretty much a proof that Airbus overdelivers.
How are you using that to prove the opposite?

Also, They increased the length of the A359's winglets a couple of years after EIS because they found that the wing can take more load than expected.

BTW, both of A330NEO and A320NEO are beating fuel burn expectations as well.
Last edited by Eyad89 on Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 11701
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:05 pm

keesje wrote:
Delta cancelling Dreamliners, ignoring 73MAX, ordering A350, A330NEO, lots of NEO's and beating Boeing in court on the A220, didn't land well everywhere.

But DL ordering 120+ B737s, extending several mtx agreements on Boeing's behalf (most recently with the US Navy), and constantly pining to hoard NMA orders as soon as officially launched.... did.

All of which you seem to be conveniently ignoring.


Wildlander wrote:
The A350 XWB did indeed see the MTOW creep up prior to EIS.

You mean OEW. ;)

No one would really care about increases in MTOW, as that can be adjusted on paper, if the airline desires.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
evomutant
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 8:47 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:07 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I read all the comments from DL A350 pilots. I would say it is roughly 2 to 1 against. There are many complaints about the tiny crew rest area, small size of the forward galley, humidity issues, complicated flight systems and difficulty in learning how to operate the aircraft. One pilot claimed an 80% sim fail rate.

A number of pilots expressed jealously because fellow AA and UA pilots "love the 787," and wish they felt the same way about the A359.

Several pilots did praise the safety systems and the overall technology, while still talking about the complexity.

Interesting comments, I would encourage folks to read.


Many of the complaints are customer options that Delta went cheap on (crew rest, no humidifiers) or chose for presumably operational/product reasons (small galley). As many of the posters on that thread acknowledge themselves.

The "80% fail rate" was a tongue in cheek comment, clarified later on.

I can well believe however, from experience on much smaller airbuses, that the manuals are crap.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:16 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I read all the comments from DL A350 pilots. I would say it is roughly 2 to 1 against. There are many complaints about the tiny crew rest area, small size of the forward galley, humidity issues, complicated flight systems and difficulty in learning how to operate the aircraft. One pilot claimed an 80% sim fail rate.

A number of pilots expressed jealously because fellow AA and UA pilots "love the 787," and wish they felt the same way about the A359.

Several pilots did praise the safety systems and the overall technology, while still talking about the complexity.

Interesting comments, I would encourage folks to read.


While it's impossible to overestimate the ability of pilots to complain about everything, I think the OP was really referencing the financial results of Delta's A350 acquisition.
 
avier
Posts: 532
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:04 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:

A number of pilots expressed jealously because fellow AA and UA pilots "love the 787," and wish they felt the same way about the A359.



Is that maybe also got to do with the fact that being American pilots, and probably having flown Boeing (747) before, they have a bias for Boeing aircrafts? Just like the many American a.netters. Maybe those pilots just wanted to fly an aircraft made in their country and of national pride. :smile:
 
bbowma77
Posts: 15
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:14 pm

Reading a lot of threads the last few years and just comparing all i have read 9purely subjective); 789's over-performing, going out fully loaded on ULH routes etc. A359, under-performing on ULH, some airlines cancelling and deferring, or in Deltas case deferring and negotiating options to convert to A330neo. Recent years sales of of the A350 also seem weak. Does Airbus have problems with the the wide-body strategy in general?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:20 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
Delta cancelling Dreamliners, ignoring 73MAX, ordering A350, A330NEO, lots of NEO's and beating Boeing in court on the A220, didn't land well everywhere.

But DL ordering 120+ B737s, extending several mtx agreements on Boeing's behalf (most recently with the US Navy), and constantly pining to hoard NMA orders as soon as officially launched.... did.

All of which you seem to be conveniently ignoring.


Wildlander wrote:
The A350 XWB did indeed see the MTOW creep up prior to EIS.

You mean OEW. ;)

No one would really care about increases in MTOW, as that can be adjusted on paper, if the airline desires.


Why would Delfa order the 797 when they have a ton of A330neos on the way? It just wouldn't make any sense. Delta needs to standardize their fleet. Adding yet another fleet type would just be asinine.
 
kevin5345179
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:35 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
No matter what evidence is presented. You would never accept the idea that an airbus product is inferior.


sounds like that is for you
JAL is another airline decided to use A350 to replace 77W
get over it .......
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/16 ... 7TNH6qQup8
 
smartplane
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:45 pm

avier wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

A number of pilots expressed jealously because fellow AA and UA pilots "love the 787," and wish they felt the same way about the A359.



Is that maybe also got to do with the fact that being American pilots, and probably having flown Boeing (747) before, they have a bias for Boeing aircrafts? Just like the many American a.netters. Maybe those pilots just wanted to fly an aircraft made in their country and of national pride. :smile:

Surely American pilots would love any WB designed / made this century, purchased new, whichever the OEM.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities

Which, we should note, is not in any way a fact. :roll:


The A330 is too big for some routes. They'll be eliminated.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities in favor of flowing people over to KLM and Air France. That's why you have seen new TATL service to AMS and CDG from cities like MCO, TPA, and IND. So Delta really doesn't need a one for one replacement for the 767.


Which TATL routes will be eliminated? That would be consistent with what DL is doing TPAC with dropping HKG and SIN, no NRT hub, and handing pax over to make connections on KE. But I hadn't heard of a similar strategy TATL.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:29 pm

IPFreely wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities in favor of flowing people over to KLM and Air France. That's why you have seen new TATL service to AMS and CDG from cities like MCO, TPA, and IND. So Delta really doesn't need a one for one replacement for the 767.


Which TATL routes will be eliminated? That would be consistent with what DL is doing TPAC with dropping HKG and SIN, no NRT hub, and handing pax over to make connections on KE. But I hadn't heard of a similar strategy TATL.


I would imagine routes like DUS, PSA, LIS, STR, TXL, NCE, EDI, SNN, VCE, ZRH will be cut. Some of them can't even support a 767 year round so an A330 is out of the question.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 11701
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:51 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why would Delfa order the 797 when they have a ton of A330neos on the way?

Because:
1) If you haven't figured it out by now, they care far more about relative performance optimization than they do about commonality of equipment.

2) Math. There's still plenty of to-be-retired aircraft both above and below the NMA's supposed position that an A330 of any kind would be far too large/heavy to adequately address.

3) As much prattling as you're doing about routes too big for an A330, common sense should suggest that the airline would be looking at an aircraft supposedly positioned to address that very segment of the market.... ya know, instead of furloughing tons of crew and handing their position over to a foreign ally-- because that's the way to keep 'em nonunionized (for any airline who's shown it'll go to almost any length to maintain that status) ain't it? :roll:



TTailedTiger wrote:
Adding yet another fleet type would just be asinine.

To you perhaps, but let's not pretend as though you have some commanding comprehension of the airline's fleet dynamics. :lol:



TTailedTiger wrote:
The A330 is too big for some routes. They'll be eliminated.
TTailedTiger wrote:
I would imagine

The latter would be a fairly accurate summation of the preceding statement.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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