sxf24
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:58 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:



Delta is very good at negotiating guarantees and Airbus is, historically, good at overpromising and underdelivering on performance.


yet, all airline CEOs who were asked about the A350 said that it beat the initial expectations, and that list includes the CEO of QR who's notoriously difficult to please.


sxf24 wrote:

This is usually settled with MTOW upgrades or discounts on future airplanes.

.



Airbus's MTOW upgrades a few years after EIS shows that the plane can take a higher structrual load than first promised. This is pretty much a proof that Airbus overdelivers.
How are you using that to prove the opposite?

Also, They increased the length of the A359's winglets a couple of years after EIS because they found that the wing can take more load than expected.

BTW, both of A330NEO and A320NEO are beating fuel burn expectations as well.


There’s no correlation between beating expectations or initial marketing specs and meeting performance guarantees. Each guarantee is negotiated individually based on that specific airline’s operations and expectations. Airbus is more aggressive in providing guarantees than Boeing. Both produce airplanes that exceed initial expectations.
 
jupiter2
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities

Which, we should note, is not in any way a fact. :roll:


The A330 is too big for some routes. They'll be eliminated.


Assume you have some info from DL to confirm that ? Otherwise they are just the type of route that a 321NEO, or, shock horror, a future 797 would be operating.
 
smartplane
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:21 pm

sxf24 wrote:
There’s no correlation between beating expectations or initial marketing specs and meeting performance guarantees. Each guarantee is negotiated individually based on that specific airline’s operations and expectations. Airbus is more aggressive in providing guarantees than Boeing. Both produce airplanes that exceed initial expectations.

More of a correlation when your launch customers are some of the most demanding in the industry, like EK and QR.

LH was always perceived as easy to please, but that illusion was broken when they refused to take delivery of a 748 or a replacement, and insisted on the 20 unit price for only 19 actual deliveries.

Both air frame OEM's have become even more conservative. Previously they discouraged customers from negotiating direct with engine OEM's, but now.... For larger, more strategic orders, they are willing to forego a whisker of direct engine margin, and let / encourage customers negotiate direct with engine OEM's.

The problem on a new, yet to fly model, is the grey area. Engine OEM states engine testing shows X. Air frame OEM states air frame testing shows Y. But the grey area is integration of the two. Who makes those guarantees? Who carries the risk? Why 777X parties are still doing the dance, rather than executing unconditional contracts.

These issues, and others, make it increasingly likely GE commercial aero engines will join Boeing sooner than later. Ditto RR / PW and Airbus.
Last edited by smartplane on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:22 pm

Let’s hope the A350s are ok. 230 A350s have been delivered, BA, Virgin, JAL, SAS, China Southern, Air France and Aeroflot will take their first A350s in 2019.

Still no hard info of the A350 not performing has been brought up. But for the many Boeing supporters, “somebody I know at xxxx said .. ” is sufficient in this case.

The “suggest deletion”s would stack up in a similar “How is the 787 performing for Avianca” qouting “people I know dislike it”.
First AI would be dragged down and then the topic would be locked using a suitable tbd forum rule. :snaggletooth:
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BoeingGuy
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:38 pm

kevin5345179 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
No matter what evidence is presented. You would never accept the idea that an airbus product is inferior.


sounds like that is for you
JAL is another airline decided to use A350 to replace 77W
get over it .......
https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/16 ... 7TNH6qQup8


We were told that the primary reason that JL choose the A350 over Boeing was they were so (justifiably) furious over the disastrous 787 delays and fleet grounding that they basically fired Boeing from that campaign. It was not a statement of which product they felt was superior.

The 787 delays, along with 747-8 and KC-46 delays sure rank as some of the lowest points in Boeing’s history. The idiotic lawsuit against the C-Series while right in the middle of a big DL campaign for 737-9s was another high point in stupidity.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:42 pm

zeke wrote:
Mrakula wrote:
There should be other operational rasons or your source is not thrust worthy


Not sure what is going on here, PEK-DTW should be a fast flight with the tailwinds, and DTW-PEK polar.

We operate the 359 out of EWR and IAD to HKG almost daily, most times we do not need MTOW to do over 7000 nm (DTW-PEK is around 5800 nm). Our MTOWs are above 275 tonnes. I do not know if DL has full ETOPS capability yet, we operate them ETOPS 240.

DL has 26 more seats than we do (higher empty weight), so they would carry more catering than we do.

DL could get a paper MTOW change to 277 tonnes for its existing aircraft, the just need to write cheque and Airbus will amend their flight manual to reflect the new weights.

Our 359 max payload would be circa of 10 tonnes less than the 77L, however it is more than the 77E. If the DL 359 is at 268 tonnes MTOW would make it around 80 tonnes lighter than a 77L and 30 tonnes lighter than a 77E (at MTOW). A significant fuel saving over both with the lower weights, more efficient engines, and lower drag, lower maintenance costs means lower cost per passenger and cost per tonne, faster flight times.

If you need more payload, the 35K lifts 5-10 tonnes more than a 77L/77W, and is still a fair bit lighter (and about 30 minutes faster over the long routes).


Sounds like this answers many questions. DL management are not idiots! smh!
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Pyrex
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:13 am

727200 wrote:
Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted. He tells me that on flights such as DTW-PVG/PEK it often can’t take a full load of passengers and cargo. So if the flight is full of revenue passengers then some cargo is left behind and if the flight has non-rev’s then cargo goes and non-rev’s frequently get left behind.

Aside from what he is telling me, I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo. This seems a bit extreme to me. I’ve heard of leaving a few non-rev’s behind but 62 is crazy.

I don’t know the technical aspects of the A359 but are there different variations of this aircraft with different payloads abilities? To put it simply: Did Delta buy the cheap A359’s to get a deal? (Obviously the word “cheap” is relative so please no snarky comments about symantics). I ask this because I don’t recall hearing Delta’s 77L’s ever being weight restricted, except for maybe ATL-JNB occasionally in the summer.




I have heard this as well from DL internals that the plane isn't living up to expectations and Airbus claims that were made to get the contracts signed. It seems it can fly far or carry a heavy load but it can't do both at the same time. As such DL is disappointed in its performance and trying to get Airbus to change the rating on the plane. The issue is the DL feels that Airbus should do it for free and Airbus wants DL to pay for it. So until that happens, its SOP.


How ironic that a company in the airline business objects to someone pricing a product based on the perceived value to the customer, not the actual cost in delivering that product. I must remember to bring up that "but it doesn't cost you anything!" argument the next time DL tries to charge me double for a direct flight as opposed to routing me through ATL/AMS/CDG, or the next time a Monday morning one-way ticket on a medium-haul business route costs more than a Saturday round-trip, or an ABC-ATL-XYZ is much, much cheaper than an ATL-XYZ ticket, to see just how strongly they feel about it.
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cc2314
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:26 am

Have not yet read the entire thread.. I have seen inefficiency mentioned on some of the longer routes.
I don't really buy the idea the aircraft is under performing in ability, it wasn't too long ago I recall big praise in performance coming from the flight tests.

I pass through ams quiet alot, whilst there I get to see alot of Delta metal.Surely the a350 must perform well with loads/efficiency over the Atlantic?

To the layman the whole system of upgrading an aircrafts ability with the stroke of a pen is frustrating but understanding.
Deleted
 
JFK31R
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:48 am

A DL flight attendant told me that galleys are tiny on the A350s, so she's not fan.

Says there the passengers love them though.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:05 am

The galleys on the 350 are a joke - they are really cramped compared to other wide bodies. IIRC they are part of Airbus’s SpaceFlex concept, which is supposed to save space in the cabin. This time, however they went too far imho... I wholeheartedly understand the frustration of ‘senior mamas’, as they put it on another forum.

OTOH, the cockpit is huuuge! 8-)
 
avier
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:10 am

JFK31R wrote:
A DL flight attendant told me that galleys are tiny on the A350s, so she's not fan.

Says there the passengers love them though.


So going by this whole thread, it looks like the main issues are petty internal ones like galley or cockpit design or some configuration related issues. Not so much that the aircraft is performing badly or the airline management has an issue with the aircraft. Some state that however without any sources which is very questionable.
Also looking at the DL fleet page, the most profitable airline has almost more than 90% of it's outstanding aircraft orders for Airbus' as of now. And again, this is the favourite major airline of the US and performing extremely well, and has made a preference for the Airbus. Speaks a lot.
 
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seahawk
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:15 am

Wait for their next orders.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:56 am

keesje wrote:
Let’s hope the A350s are ok. 230 A350s have been delivered, BA, Virgin, JAL, SAS, China Southern, Air France and Aeroflot will take their first A350s in 2019.

Still no hard info of the A350 not performing has been brought up. But for the many Boeing supporters, “somebody I know at xxxx said .. ” is sufficient in this case.

The “suggest deletion”s would stack up in a similar “How is the 787 performing for Avianca” qouting “people I know dislike it”.
First AI would be dragged down and then the topic would be locked using a suitable tbd forum rule. :snaggletooth:

!!!!
 
LewisNEO
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:13 pm

Casablanca wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
My Nephew works for Delta and he claims they're quite enamored with it. I would think they would be if for No other reason than Airbus is kissing their Butts about now because they do NOT want to see them with buyers remorse for the A321's the A330's or the A350's especially seeing as how they still have Boeing as a supplier as well.

didn't they just defer new orders?


Not exactly, they didn't defer new orders. They deferred and existing order for 10 A350s which will be delivered later now in 2025 instead of 2021, and they firmed up an option of purchasing rights for 10 additional A3330-900s next to the existing order of 25 A330-900s.
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Boeingphan
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:05 pm

I'd say strong to quite strong
 
WayexTDI
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:44 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
I'd say strong to quite strong

Translation?
 
Jetty
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:11 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Boeingphan wrote:
I'd say strong to quite strong

Translation?

He means that at least the aircraft is stable.
 
jbs2886
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:43 pm

avier wrote:
JFK31R wrote:
A DL flight attendant told me that galleys are tiny on the A350s, so she's not fan.

Says there the passengers love them though.


So going by this whole thread, it looks like the main issues are petty internal ones like galley or cockpit design or some configuration related issues. Not so much that the aircraft is performing badly or the airline management has an issue with the aircraft. Some state that however without any sources which is very questionable.
Also looking at the DL fleet page, the most profitable airline has almost more than 90% of it's outstanding aircraft orders for Airbus' as of now. And again, this is the favourite major airline of the US and performing extremely well, and has made a preference for the Airbus. Speaks a lot.


Seriously?

1) the same type of sources that you claim are credible re: galley/cockpit design and configuration are the same type of sources for weight/range issues that you claim are "very questionable" (both hearsay from people at DL); and
2) correlation does not equal causation - that is, DL having mostly Airbus aircraft on order is not the reason it is the most profitable airline - instead, DL has gotten good deals and bought the aircraft that it believes best meet its needs.
 
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Aesma
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am

It would be interesting to know if MTOW increase prices are part of the initial negotiation, meaning Delta negotiates from the start the price of a future potential upgrade if the need arises, or if it's a new negotiation when the need arises, considering Airbus probably doesn't feel the need to give a special deal to DL right now.
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2175301
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:22 am

My impression is that Delta may be satisfied with the A350; that it fills a specific flight profile they have and does it well enough. However, they are not enamored with it based on the deferral of scheduled deliveries. I'm not sure anything else can really be deduced at this time.

Have a great day,
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:28 am

avier wrote:
JFK31R wrote:
A DL flight attendant told me that galleys are tiny on the A350s, so she's not fan.

Says there the passengers love them though.


So going by this whole thread, it looks like the main issues are petty internal ones like galley or cockpit design or some configuration related issues. Not so much that the aircraft is performing badly or the airline management has an issue with the aircraft. Some state that however without any sources which is very questionable.
Also looking at the DL fleet page, the most profitable airline has almost more than 90% of it's outstanding aircraft orders for Airbus' as of now. And again, this is the favourite major airline of the US and performing extremely well, and has made a preference for the Airbus. Speaks a lot.


Favorite airline according to who?
 
ba319-131
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:29 am

2175301 wrote:
My impression is that Delta may be satisfied with the A350; that it fills a specific flight profile they have and does it well enough. However, they are not enamored with it based on the deferral of scheduled deliveries. I'm not sure anything else can really be deduced at this time.

Have a great day,


- to me the deferral is based on a review of route/aircraft requirements, the deferred aircraft are just needed later than originally planned. Nothing wrong with that.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:36 am

ba319-131 wrote:
2175301 wrote:
My impression is that Delta may be satisfied with the A350; that it fills a specific flight profile they have and does it well enough. However, they are not enamored with it based on the deferral of scheduled deliveries. I'm not sure anything else can really be deduced at this time.

Have a great day,


- to me the deferral is based on a review of route/aircraft requirements, the deferred aircraft are just needed later than originally planned. Nothing wrong with that.


The 777 will need to start to be retired around 2025 so I imagine those A350's will replace it. I would think they would change the order to A359ULR to replace the 772LR. The A330neo can replace the 772ER with no issue. DL already uses the A330 on East coast to Asia.

So they should be able to get the widebody fleet down to the A350 and A330 within the next 7 years. The A321LR will handle whatever is possible TATL from JFK and BOS.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I would think they would change the order to A359ULR to replace the 772LR.

Which would serve no apparent purpose, considering that an A359ULR no longer has a higher MTOW capability than a standard (280T) A359, which are available now and able to devote more of that uplift to payload.

Nor is there anything that DL flies (or is likely to fly) that's outside the feasible range of a standard 280T A359 from its respective hubs, including SIN.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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seahawk
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:56 am

If you ignore rumours, dispatch reliability looks good, no technical errors reported, no groundings, no hangar queens and no open dispute between the OEM and the airline. So looks decent overall.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:02 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I would think they would change the order to A359ULR to replace the 772LR.

Which would serve no apparent purpose, considering that an A359ULR no longer has a higher MTOW capability than a standard (280T) A359, which are available now and able to devote more of that uplift to payload.

Nor is there anything that DL flies (or is likely to fly) that's outside the feasible range of a standard 280T A359 from its respective hubs, including SIN.


Well whatever, as long as they can make it to JNB and back with a full load.
 
Eyad89
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:11 am

2175301 wrote:
However, they are not enamored with it based on the deferral of scheduled deliveries. I'm not sure anything else can really be deduced at this time.

Have a great day,



Going by this logic, one can say SQ aren't impressed by the 78X because they are getting more A359s with regional configurations while ditching quite a bit of their 78Xs to Scoot.

Both sentences are manifestations of confirmation bias. They deferred 10 of their A359s simply to wait for the 777 retirement date. The same way SQ going for more regional A359s instead of 78Xs does not mean that they don't like the 78X as much as they like the A359, they got their own reasons.
 
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:23 am

timh4000 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel. I was flying JFK-NRT-MNL on the 744 we had to return to the gate to top off with fuel because we taxied too long and we couldnt make it to NRT with the fuel on board.

That sounds like to me they were already cutting it a bit close, unless you were sitting on the taxiway for a very long time. You don't often hear of planes that have to go back to top off because they used up all their taxi fuel and were into trip fuel.


I had been on a flight where we had to return for fuel twice. And both times the captain was running all 4 engines. I think Delta really was trying to optimize the amount of fuel they carried rather aggressively.
 
avier
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:42 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
avier wrote:
JFK31R wrote:
A DL flight attendant told me that galleys are tiny on the A350s, so she's not fan.

Says there the passengers love them though.


So going by this whole thread, it looks like the main issues are petty internal ones like galley or cockpit design or some configuration related issues. Not so much that the aircraft is performing badly or the airline management has an issue with the aircraft. Some state that however without any sources which is very questionable.
Also looking at the DL fleet page, the most profitable airline has almost more than 90% of it's outstanding aircraft orders for Airbus' as of now. And again, this is the favourite major airline of the US and performing extremely well, and has made a preference for the Airbus. Speaks a lot.


Favorite airline according to who?


Wall Street !
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:53 am

DL757NYC wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
With the 10 772LR's being retired in 2025 I wonder if FedEx will be taking a look at them to convert and join their 777F fleet.


The 8-10 year old 777LR’s are leaving in 6 years. Wow that’s news to me. Their oldest 777 has 10k cycles and 84k hours. The first LR was delivered in 2008 the last in 2010. That means that Delta’s history of flying their planes as long as they safely can is being changed.They have MD-80’s and 757’s they flew for almost 30 years. Now they are going to change their philosophy and retire 15-17 year old planes. Not to mention they are their longest range aircraft. They better hurry up and order in the next few years delivery slots fill up rather quickly. And what aircraft are they going to order now that they most likely will convert their A350 options to A330’s and the 777LR won’t be available much longer.


Well then please explain to us what 35 A330neos and the rest of the A350's will be replacing. Someone a few posts above said that Delta can easily switch to the 280t A350. That's way too much capacity and capability without retiring the 777. And Airbus has Delta by the balls. Delta will deal with whatever timeframe Airbus gives them. They know they won't go to Boeing.
 
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seahawk
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:58 am

DL757NYC wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
With the 10 772LR's being retired in 2025 I wonder if FedEx will be taking a look at them to convert and join their 777F fleet.


The 8-10 year old 777LR’s are leaving in 6 years. Wow that’s news to me. Their oldest 777 has 10k cycles and 84k hours. The first LR was delivered in 2008 the last in 2010. That means that Delta’s history of flying their planes as long as they safely can is being changed.They have MD-80’s and 757’s they flew for almost 30 years. Now they are going to change their philosophy and retire 15-17 year old planes. Not to mention they are their longest range aircraft. They better hurry up and order in the next few years delivery slots fill up rather quickly. And what aircraft are they going to order now that they most likely will convert their A350 options to A330’s and the 777LR won’t be available much longer.


Fleet planing is always fluid. The ERs will be up for replacement by 2025. The LRs, I am sure there are many arguments to be made for retiring them and there are arguments for keeping them. And to be honest that is a good position to be in. You can manage your capacity as needed that way. You have options for growth and options to improve efficiency while keeping your capacity constant.
 
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zeke
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:39 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Someone a few posts above said that Delta can easily switch to the 280t A350.


If that was said I don’t believe it to be true. To get that weight the aircraft needs the -1000 nose gear which I would be surprised if their original weight was 268 tonnes.
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LAX772LR
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:00 am

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Someone a few posts above said that Delta can easily switch to the 280t A350.

If that was said I don’t believe it to be true. To get that weight the aircraft needs the -1000 nose gear which I would be surprised if their original weight was 268 tonnes.

The statement was that they have the ability to switch incoming (though currently deferred) orders to 280T birds, not uprate their extant ships to that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Casablanca
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:34 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel. I was flying JFK-NRT-MNL on the 744 we had to return to the gate to top off with fuel because we taxied too long and we couldnt make it to NRT with the fuel on board.

That sounds like to me they were already cutting it a bit close, unless you were sitting on the taxiway for a very long time. You don't often hear of planes that have to go back to top off because they used up all their taxi fuel and were into trip fuel.


I had been on a flight where we had to return for fuel twice. And both times the captain was running all 4 engines. I think Delta really was trying to optimize the amount of fuel they carried rather aggressively.


Not sure if you were questioning the practice of taxiing with all engines running?
On taxi out when aircraft is very heavy you really don’t save much fuel by shutting 2 down, as the other two are running much harder every time you stop and move.
On the 777 at max take off weight it would require so much thrust and produces so much jet blast that it is quite hazardous- and at higher power settings above about 35% god ingestion is much more likely
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:55 pm

I find it tiresome that its 2019 and the flame wars A and B are still going with the same tired old arguments. Delta is a very well run airline, and if they choose the A350 they must have seen it with a magnifying glass, so much that after that they have made comintments with other products from Airbus. If other Companies bought 787 or A350 they have their reasons, its not just because someone screwed up, in the end you need a product that is reasonably priced, that is reliable and makes MONEY. Who care about galleys? or if their software is confusing, if the darn thing flies as expected and makes money, the executives will not even blink for small galleys. I love the 787 but the A350 is a very capable competition. Delta could buy Boeing products if they wanted, but they did not... there must be really good reasons for that, and the A net rumor mill is not a good indicator...

Have a great Year

Regards
TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
HIA350
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:29 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
HIA350 wrote:
yes they are scrapping them, sell them to coke and pepsi to become soda cans



That would be the world’s first carbon-fiber soda cans :D



lmaoooo carbonfiber coke 0 calories and a rich source of carbon
 
timh4000
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:39 am

DL757NYC wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
I know they must be saving a ton on fuel. I was flying JFK-NRT-MNL on the 744 we had to return to the gate to top off with fuel because we taxied too long and we couldnt make it to NRT with the fuel on board.

That sounds like to me they were already cutting it a bit close, unless you were sitting on the taxiway for a very long time. You don't often hear of planes that have to go back to top off because they used up all their taxi fuel and were into trip fuel.


I had been on a flight where we had to return for fuel twice. And both times the captain was running all 4 engines. I think Delta really was trying to optimize the amount of fuel they carried rather aggressively.

While I know many on here have more time in the air than I do, still, I've had 3 notable occasions of being away from the gate and held up for various reasons. Weather was one, runway lights that went kaput at O'Hare was another. And recently we sat waiting for about an hour in Albany waiting to go to philly. Granted, none of these were long flights. The longest was FLL TO ALB and that was a good 45 minutes.
I've read more than once one of pilots biggest issues is the amount of fuel they are allowed to carry. So either they miscalculated their taxi fuel. Or were just not allowed to carry enough fuel for issues such as delays at take off or having to fight weather with go arounds or diversions. There are numerous vids on YouTube with pilots declaring fuel emergencies. I think that happens way more often than it should.
 
timh4000
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:45 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
I find it tiresome that its 2019 and the flame wars A and B are still going with the same tired old arguments. Delta is a very well run airline, and if they choose the A350 they must have seen it with a magnifying glass, so much that after that they have made comintments with other products from Airbus. If other Companies bought 787 or A350 they have their reasons, its not just because someone screwed up, in the end you need a product that is reasonably priced, that is reliable and makes MONEY. Who care about galleys? or if their software is confusing, if the darn thing flies as expected and makes money, the executives will not even blink for small galleys. I love the 787 but the A350 is a very capable competition. Delta could buy Boeing products if they wanted, but they did not... there must be really good reasons for that, and the A net rumor mill is not a good indicator...

Have a great Year

Regards
TRB

I agree. Delta, or any other airline will base their decision on which aircraft to purchase or lease based on profit. None of them are going to cut into profit margins based on a personal like or dislike of Boeing or Airbus.
 
timh4000
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:47 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
I find it tiresome that its 2019 and the flame wars A and B are still going with the same tired old arguments. Delta is a very well run airline, and if they choose the A350 they must have seen it with a magnifying glass, so much that after that they have made comintments with other products from Airbus. If other Companies bought 787 or A350 they have their reasons, its not just because someone screwed up, in the end you need a product that is reasonably priced, that is reliable and makes MONEY. Who care about galleys? or if their software is confusing, if the darn thing flies as expected and makes money, the executives will not even blink for small galleys. I love the 787 but the A350 is a very capable competition. Delta could buy Boeing products if they wanted, but they did not... there must be really good reasons for that, and the A net rumor mill is not a good indicator...

Have a great Year

Regards
TRB

I agree. Delta, or any other airline will base their decision on which aircraft to purchase or lease based on profit. None of them are going to cut into profit margins based on a personal like or dislike of Boeing or Airbus.
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 364
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:47 am

Pretty sure this has been discussed elsewhere so I'll just try to clarify. From what I've read here is that the A35J would perform better on JNB-ATL than the 280 tonne A359. Delta, specifically Ed, has not ruled out ordering the A35J and there is a possible need for the aircraft with its size on a few routes. I think there is a solid chance the deferred A359s will become A35Js or more A339s. I expect the A339 will eventually replace the 772 fleet, in fact the last ten A339s could definitely be the replacement for those aircraft while the 797, assuming Boeing launches the aircraft, will replace the youngest 21 GE powered 767s. While the 772LR fleet is still young, six of the sixteen 747s Delta retired were also relatively young, although much different circumstances. However, I think the 772 fleet has a good six or seven years in them before they are retired or possibly even longer.
 
rbavfan
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:12 am

Michiganatc wrote:
My friend works for DL in the ATL flight planning/dispatch department and he say’s his department is disappointed in the A350 payload ability with it being frequently weight restricted. He tells me that on flights such as DTW-PVG/PEK it often can’t take a full load of passengers and cargo. So if the flight is full of revenue passengers then some cargo is left behind and if the flight has non-rev’s then cargo goes and non-rev’s frequently get left behind.

Aside from what he is telling me, I have another Delta friend who experienced this exact situation. Last summer she was trying to fly PEK-DTW and the flight was showing 55 open seats with a mix between J and Y class open. She was shocked to learn that they couldn’t take a single non-rev on this flight and it left with 62 open seats so it could take all of its cargo. This seems a bit extreme to me. I’ve heard of leaving a few non-rev’s behind but 62 is crazy.

I don’t know the technical aspects of the A359 but are there different variations of this aircraft with different payloads abilities? To put it simply: Did Delta buy the cheap A359’s to get a deal? (Obviously the word “cheap” is relative so please no snarky comments about symantics). I ask this because I don’t recall hearing Delta’s 77L’s ever being weight restricted, except for maybe ATL-JNB occasionally in the summer.


Non revs are available space only. If your upset they are bumped for revenue cargo then you need to re asses your life views.
 
AlexBrewster03
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta will be ending service to secondary TATL cities in favor of flowing people over to KLM and Air France. That's why you have seen new TATL service to AMS and CDG from cities like MCO, TPA, and IND. So Delta really doesn't need a one for one replacement for the 767.


Which TATL routes will be eliminated? That would be consistent with what DL is doing TPAC with dropping HKG and SIN, no NRT hub, and handing pax over to make connections on KE. But I hadn't heard of a similar strategy TATL.


I would imagine routes like DUS, PSA, LIS, STR, TXL, NCE, EDI, SNN, VCE, ZRH will be cut. Some of them can't even support a 767 year round so an A330 is out of the question.


I highly doubt routes such as EDI, SNN, and LIS will be dropped cause those can be flown with a 757(eventually 797) and other narrowbodies from JFK. NCE can also be flown with a narrow body from JFK. I can also never see ZHR being dropped. Routes such as DUS and STR can always be changed to seasonal. VCE and TXL are the only ones i worry about. Time will only tell what routes Delta ends up dropping. I hope the 797 has enough range to sustain serving various secondary routes such as these, because those destinations definitely add depth to Deltas route network
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:11 am

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Which TATL routes will be eliminated? That would be consistent with what DL is doing TPAC with dropping HKG and SIN, no NRT hub, and handing pax over to make connections on KE. But I hadn't heard of a similar strategy TATL.


I would imagine routes like DUS, PSA, LIS, STR, TXL, NCE, EDI, SNN, VCE, ZRH will be cut. Some of them can't even support a 767 year round so an A330 is out of the question.


I highly doubt routes such as EDI, SNN, and LIS will be dropped cause those can be flown with a 757(eventually 797) and other narrowbodies from JFK. NCE can also be flown with a narrow body from JFK. I can also never see ZHR being dropped. Routes such as DUS and STR can always be changed to seasonal. VCE and TXL are the only ones i worry about. Time will only tell what routes Delta ends up dropping. I hope the 797 has enough range to sustain serving various secondary routes such as these, because those destinations definitely add depth to Deltas route network


Of course the 797 could handle those flights. It will have plenty of range for TATL ops. I just don't think Delta has any serious interest in it. Airbus has Delta tied around their finger.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:16 am

Still going with this thread?

There is something about US airlines flying Airbus widebodies that absolutely makes some posters insane. The record appears to show that DL likes the 359 just fine, but in hindsight may not have made the optimum MTOW choice. I'm sure Airbus will be happy to address that once handed a suitable check.

As posted by many above, DL's deferral of the last tranche of 359s is to line up with the 772 retirement schedule. I strongly suspect that by the early 2020s it will be obvious that the 77Ls have to go at the same time as the 77Es, and that they will be replaced by even more 359s, with at least some deliveries uprated to 280 t. I'd be surprised to see 35Ks but shocked to see any 359 get cancelled.

That said I think there is also room for 787s in the fleet, and that the 787 will have a real shot at the 764 + A330ceo replacement order around the same time.
 
AlexBrewster03
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Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:12 pm

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
AlexBrewster03 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I would imagine routes like DUS, PSA, LIS, STR, TXL, NCE, EDI, SNN, VCE, ZRH will be cut. Some of them can't even support a 767 year round so an A330 is out of the question.


I highly doubt routes such as EDI, SNN, and LIS will be dropped cause those can be flown with a 757(eventually 797) and other narrowbodies from JFK. NCE can also be flown with a narrow body from JFK. I can also never see ZHR being dropped. Routes such as DUS and STR can always be changed to seasonal. VCE and TXL are the only ones i worry about. Time will only tell what routes Delta ends up dropping. I hope the 797 has enough range to sustain serving various secondary routes such as these, because those destinations definitely add depth to Deltas route network


Of course the 797 could handle those flights. It will have plenty of range for TATL ops. I just don't think Delta has any serious interest in it. Airbus has Delta tied around their finger.

Last i heard, Delta was seriously interested in the 797, and i hope that remains true. If not, then they should at least order the A321LR/XLR
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:32 am

seabosdca wrote:
Still going with this thread?

There is something about US airlines flying Airbus widebodies that absolutely makes some posters insane. The record appears to show that DL likes the 359 just fine, but in hindsight may not have made the optimum MTOW choice. I'm sure Airbus will be happy to address that once handed a suitable check.

As posted by many above, DL's deferral of the last tranche of 359s is to line up with the 772 retirement schedule. I strongly suspect that by the early 2020s it will be obvious that the 77Ls have to go at the same time as the 77Es, and that they will be replaced by even more 359s, with at least some deliveries uprated to 280 t. I'd be surprised to see 35Ks but shocked to see any 359 get cancelled.

That said I think there is also room for 787s in the fleet, and that the 787 will have a real shot at the 764 + A330ceo replacement order around the same time.


Why wouldn't they just order more A330neo to replace the A330ceo? The 787 doesn't really offer anything now that they chose the A330neo. Delta chose a cheap acquisition price instead of cutting edge technology and efficiency. I hate seeing mixed fleets. It just screams inefficient.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:32 am

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AlexBrewster03 wrote:

I highly doubt routes such as EDI, SNN, and LIS will be dropped cause those can be flown with a 757(eventually 797) and other narrowbodies from JFK. NCE can also be flown with a narrow body from JFK. I can also never see ZHR being dropped. Routes such as DUS and STR can always be changed to seasonal. VCE and TXL are the only ones i worry about. Time will only tell what routes Delta ends up dropping. I hope the 797 has enough range to sustain serving various secondary routes such as these, because those destinations definitely add depth to Deltas route network


Of course the 797 could handle those flights. It will have plenty of range for TATL ops. I just don't think Delta has any serious interest in it. Airbus has Delta tied around their finger.

Last i heard, Delta was seriously interested in the 797, and i hope that remains true. If not, then they should at least order the A321LR/XLR


Yes they will order whatever Airbus can do to the A321.
 
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compensateme
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:06 am

Factless threads like these are what makes a.net difficult to read.

- In 2004, strong, credible “pilot rumors” spread that losses within NW’s Pacific network are accelerating, and that NW is looking at additional 330 and the 787 to replace the entire 747 passenger fleet. In early 2005, NW orders additional 330 and early deliveries of the 787. Soon after, it suspends JFK-NRT — a 744 route — for review upon delivery of then 787.

- In 2006, DL orders the 77L for delivery beginning in 2008, specifically for ULH routes like LAX-SYD and ATL-JNB.

- In late 2008, DL acquires NW. Shortly after, it defers the 787 order and commits to the 744, refurbishing them for the long-term.

- In 2014, due to mounting losses in the Pacific division, DL decides to shelve the 744 and sets out to seek its replacement. Ultimately, DL decides on 330NEO and the 359.

- In 2017, DL fully phases out the 744 and replaces them with 359, as intended. A shrinking Pacific route network yields less need for the 359, so DL (presumably) converts some 359 to 330NEO.

———
Meanwhile, on a.net....
Because DL hasn’t placed the 359 on LAX-SYD, ATL-JNB and ATL/JFK-India, the 359 sucks and cannot complete the missions [that it was never intended to operate]. That’s why DL’s deferring/converting orders, instead of taking delivery of them and selling their 77L fleet - less than a decade old - to FedEx at heavy lossess!!! DL completely regrets its frugality in selecting the 359 [even though Boeing would’ve likely matched the pricing].
Nobody cares what your next flight is...
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 841
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:10 am

compensateme wrote:
Factless threads like these are what makes a.net difficult to read.

- In 2004, strong, credible “pilot rumors” spread that losses within NW’s Pacific network are accelerating, and that NW is looking at additional 330 and the 787 to replace the entire 747 passenger fleet. In early 2005, NW orders additional 330 and early deliveries of the 787. Soon after, it suspends JFK-NRT — a 744 route — for review upon delivery of then 787.

- In 2006, DL orders the 77L for delivery beginning in 2008, specifically for ULH routes like LAX-SYD and ATL-JNB.

- In late 2008, DL acquires NW. Shortly after, it defers the 787 order and commits to the 744, refurbishing them for the long-term.

- In 2014, due to mounting losses in the Pacific division, DL decides to shelve the 744 and sets out to seek its replacement. Ultimately, DL decides on 330NEO and the 359.

- In 2017, DL fully phases out the 744 and replaces them with 359, as intended. A shrinking Pacific route network yields less need for the 359, so DL (presumably) converts some 359 to 330NEO.

———
Meanwhile, on a.net....
Because DL hasn’t placed the 359 on LAX-SYD, ATL-JNB and ATL/JFK-India, the 359 sucks and cannot complete the missions [that it was never intended to operate]. That’s why DL’s deferring/converting orders, instead of taking delivery of them and selling their 77L fleet - less than a decade old - to FedEx at heavy lossess!!! DL completely regrets its frugality in selecting the 359 [even though Boeing would’ve likely matched the pricing].


Delta also now has a much stronger relationship with Korean Air. That softens their demand for long haul aircraft as well.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: How is the A350 performing for DL

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:15 am

seabosdca wrote:
Still going with this thread?

There is something about US airlines flying Airbus widebodies that absolutely makes some posters insane. The record appears to show that DL likes the 359 just fine, but in hindsight may not have made the optimum MTOW choice. I'm sure Airbus will be happy to address that once handed a suitable check.

As posted by many above, DL's deferral of the last tranche of 359s is to line up with the 772 retirement schedule. I strongly suspect that by the early 2020s it will be obvious that the 77Ls have to go at the same time as the 77Es, and that they will be replaced by even more 359s, with at least some deliveries uprated to 280 t. I'd be surprised to see 35Ks but shocked to see any 359 get cancelled.

That said I think there is also room for 787s in the fleet, and that the 787 will have a real shot at the 764 + A330ceo replacement order around the same time.


Of course there's room for the 787 on DLs fleet. The only people who think otherwise are those emotionally invested in one OEM. It just didn't make either financial or operational sense at the moment. Unlike some certain posters, I bet DLs relationship with B is and will remain more than strong, regardless of the NEO(s) order.
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