Updated - Southwest pulls out of Mexico City

LAXintl · Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:09 pm

Southwest AIrlines has notified the DOT it will return two slot pairs at Mexico City effective 08/09Feb 2019. Slots were part of the remedy slot awards from the AM/DL ATI JV.

Returned slots are for 1110 and 2045 arrivals, with 0705 and 1200 departures and are available for permanent reallocation by the department.

WN previously returned 2 other slot pairs. ( viewtopic.php?t=1374423 )

OST-2015-0070

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It seems WN cant figure out how to make non-beach (aka US point of sale) markets work.

MIflyer12 · Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:23 pm

Kelly indicated that Southwest could potentially add 50 more cities to its route map over time -- primarily international markets.

I still laugh at that. No consumer GDS presence, poor non-U.S. point of sale.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/ ... -ambi.aspx

Year ending 9/17, MEX was the 4th largest gateway for non-stop service to the U.S. - bigger than NRT, CDG or FRA. U.S. carriers transported 43% of them. If Southwest can't fill planes to major U.S. markets from MEX, it is laughable.

msycajun · Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:30 pm

I was surprised that NK didn't apply for slots originally. Maybe they give it a try this round. They seem to do much better than WN in international markets.

janders · Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:55 pm

Funny how both consumer darlings JetBlue and Southwest have struggled in a major market like Mexico City.

OzarkD9S · Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:57 pm

Internationally, WN needs to decide if their domestic US operational paradigm will translate to non-leisure markets. I've never flown WN internationally and their offerings ex-STL via "wherever" are sparse indeed. I looked at the STL-NAS via FLL and dear GOD, a 5:45 am departure from STL and return was getting in at some ungodly hour. Only 1 option, I chose DL, Their strategy is not working in some places, and its showing.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:00 am

I think WN suffers from its image as a domestic carrier. I certainly don’t think of them when ordering an international trip.

They also aren’t the only airline to struggle with GDL/MEX-US service.

Ultimately they will either gain traction, enter into the GDS system, or struggle.

georgiabill · Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:15 am

Are these WN'S slots for their HOU-MEX-HOU route? If so could they have applied to move them to say MCO-MEX-MCO), FLL-MEX-FLL or SAN-MEX-SAN routes?

lavalampluva · Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:47 am

That must be where the MSP-MEX slot is coming from.

carljanderson · Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:00 am

lavalampluva wrote:
That must be where the MSP-MEX slot is coming from.

I think there were other slots that were not awarded in the Phase 2 allocation or were returned earlier. These are new givebacks.

janders · Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:23 am

lavalampluva wrote:
That must be where the MSP-MEX slot is coming from.

Whole point of these slots was to take them away from AM/DL.

Slots will be awarded to other airlines, not go back to AM/ DL.

Bobloblaw · Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:26 am

WN has no foreign website and do they even take non-US credit cards?

jbs2886 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:19 am

georgiabill wrote:
Are these WN'S slots for their HOU-MEX-HOU route? If so could they have applied to move them to say MCO-MEX-MCO), FLL-MEX-FLL or SAN-MEX-SAN routes?

But they didn’t...which means they don’t even want them from other US gateways.

heretothere · Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:49 am

While I agree that WN is ill-equipped to compete in markets with a foreign POS, I think there are bigger factors at play here. B6 for example knows Latin markets better than most and they have had similar struggles at MEX. The market is mostly dominated by the 3 Mexican LCCs with AM/DL serving the upper end. I think returning these slots is the right move.

aemoreira1981 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:50 am

On the JFK end (the other end where slots were surrendered), it appears that Volaris gave up in the MEX-JFK wars, or their morning flight is suspended this time of year. This appears to be a case where the point of sale is geared heavily toward the Mexican end. Volaris maintains the overnight flight to feed its network. I have to wonder if B6 could try for that with an RON at MEX, but they would be going up in the cutthroat morning departure market against VivaAerobus, AeroMexico (788/789 mix this time of year - in summer it's a 738/789 mix), and Interjet.

As for NK, might they try their hand at FLL-MEX on the A320, especially for the morning slots? They can turn around a plane in 25-30 minutes. This is where competition is based on price, except for AM, who caters to the business traveler with one daily wide-body flight (AM's only non-intercontinental wide-body route).

enilria · Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:05 am

georgiabill wrote:
Are these WN'S slots for their HOU-MEX-HOU route? If so could they have applied to move them to say MCO-MEX-MCO), FLL-MEX-FLL or SAN-MEX-SAN routes?

Try coming up with a route that doesn’t require Mexico point of sale. It’s a short list.

alggag · Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:16 am

georgiabill wrote:
Are these WN'S slots for their HOU-MEX-HOU route? If so could they have applied to move them to say MCO-MEX-MCO), FLL-MEX-FLL or SAN-MEX-SAN routes?

Looks like it. Down to 2x per day now in the spring.

TVNWZ · Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:18 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Internationally, WN needs to decide if their domestic US operational paradigm will translate to non-leisure markets. I've never flown WN internationally and their offerings ex-STL via "wherever" are sparse indeed. I looked at the STL-NAS via FLL and dear GOD, a 5:45 am departure from STL and return was getting in at some ungodly hour. Only 1 option, I chose DL, Their strategy is not working in some places, and its showing.

5:30 gets you in at 11am. Full day at the beach. Isn’t that the point? I see three returns getting in starting at 4:30pm. Would love a later flight. More beach time again. And FLL is not a bad connecting airport. I don’t see the problem really. Others must not either. Lots of sold out flights.

TUSDawg23 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:55 am

heretothere wrote:
While I agree that WN is ill-equipped to compete in markets with a foreign POS, I think there are bigger factors at play here. B6 for example knows Latin markets better than most and they have had similar struggles at MEX. The market is mostly dominated by the 3 Mexican LCCs with AM/DL serving the upper end. I think returning these slots is the right move.

Thank you for the most rational comment on this thread so far. Just because there is a lot of US-MEX traffic doesn't mean you are bound to make $ on the routes. The yields are likely trash, especially when you are competing with the Mexican LCCs who are charging bus fares to fly into MEX.

mugler · Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:15 am

Right now FR24 shows 4 daily departures to/from MEX. Will it go down to 2 daily then? Was it ever 6 daily flights? Thats a lot of flights into Houston from Mexico considering UA 6 daily, 4O 2 daily and AM 1-2 daily?

mwmav8r01 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:56 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Kelly indicated that Southwest could potentially add 50 more cities to its route map over time -- primarily international markets.

I still laugh at that. No consumer GDS presence, poor non-U.S. point of sale.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/ ... -ambi.aspx

Year ending 9/17, MEX was the 4th largest gateway for non-stop service to the U.S. - bigger than NRT, CDG or FRA. U.S. carriers transported 43% of them. If Southwest can't fill planes to major U.S. markets from MEX, it is laughable.

Why the WN hate? Swa has no POS outside the US right now. They are chosing to reallocate assets to more money making areas. Isnt that what airlines should do?

santi319 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:58 am

I can almost guarantee NK will apply for these.

ericm2031 · Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:28 am

B6, AS, and WN have now all had issues there, and all kind of fall between the Mexican LCC's and the DL/AM JV.

This isn't really a WN isolated issue

TWA772LR · Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:07 am

mugler wrote:
Right now FR24 shows 4 daily departures to/from MEX. Will it go down to 2 daily then? Was it ever 6 daily flights? Thats a lot of flights into Houston from Mexico considering UA 6 daily, 4O 2 daily and AM 1-2 daily?

Wow is UA really down to 6 daily IAH-MEX? I remember when CO was virtually around the clock; yes i know its a different era and pretty much a new airline but still.

mwmav8r01 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Kelly indicated that Southwest could potentially add 50 more cities to its route map over time -- primarily international markets.

I still laugh at that. No consumer GDS presence, poor non-U.S. point of sale.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/ ... -ambi.aspx

Year ending 9/17, MEX was the 4th largest gateway for non-stop service to the U.S. - bigger than NRT, CDG or FRA. U.S. carriers transported 43% of them. If Southwest can't fill planes to major U.S. markets from MEX, it is laughable.

Why the WN hate? Swa has no POS outside the US right now. They are chosing to reallocate assets to more money making areas. Isnt that what airlines should do?

In his/her defense, Houston is the 2nd largest international destination from MEX and no other airline except UA has a hub in Houston. If WN cant make it work with only one real competitor on the route (AM has nothing more than a token presence since the beginning of time and 4O is a total mess) then they need to rethink their international strategy or do more research in to the market.

MEX is their only international destination that is a substantial business market; all other except for HAV are all beach markets and would rely on US POS anyway. On the contrary, I actually believe WN stands a chance to do well in Canada but thats for a different thread.

UPlog · Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:10 pm

So who can get the slot now? With AS, B6 having their own MEX issues, and the US3 don't qualify, does that only leave NK on US end? Suppose DOT might award them over to Mexican LCCs also as they previously did.

travelin man · Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:29 pm

As others have said, this is not just a WN thing. AA just cancelled PHL-MEX, UA cancelled LAX-MEX in October, and AS has had troubles in MEX too.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:21 pm

Another factor that is challenging to WN is that many Mexican nationals like to use web based travel agency sites, where WN's flights don't show up. To a smaller degree, many Mexican immigrants to the US also use travel agencies. Some are totally unaware that WN even exists on the MEX routes.
I've seen a little advertising in the MEX airport for Southwest, but brand recognition still tends to be low. The lack of assigned seating also doesn't help with business travelers.

wnflyguy · Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:22 pm

I'm scratching my head WHY after spending millions of dollars on the ONE RES system that they still haven't begun international Ticket sales yet.

I'm suprised they didn't try MEX-MDW or even MEX-SMF both those markets have a huge drawl just on the US side for VFR travel.
I see a complete withdrawal from MEX next year.

Flyguy

SWADawg · Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:29 pm

I think truth be told, just about every Airline including the US3 and Mexican Airlines are struggling to make any money out of MEX right now. I think the US3 are much more established and well known on the Mexico side than WN is though. This is one of the few times I will actually admit that WN probably needs a Mexican Codeshare partner. Either Volaris again or Interjet. I know Interjet is looking for outside investors right now. I wonder if that is something that WN should consider if they can satisfy the Scope requirements SWAPA has in place.

hiflyeras · Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:42 pm

AS has pulled out twice now out of MEX...is it that UA, DL and AA have some sort of control over local ticket sellers? My spouse has family in MEX and the fares are always high...

SurfandSnow · Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:52 pm

What a shame. Obviously WN isn't the only U.S. carrier cutting service to MEX, and as usual I have to commend WN for being patient enough to try different strategies with smaller new markets that are struggling. If the more business-friendly 4x daily HOU-MEX schedule didn't work, perhaps there are enough U.S.-based VFR and leisure travelers loyal to WN in Greater Houston (and markets beyond) to support a reduced 2x daily HOU-MEX operation. Still not a good sign...if WN can't make MEX work, we can probably forget about them trying something like BOG or SDQ anytime soon. Once Hawaii finally comes on board, WN may very well have to stick with bulk leisure markets such as STT, SXM and *maybe* PTY when flying south of the continental U.S. Probably great news for B6 and NK, though!

tphuang · Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:51 pm

don't think this is a big surprise. MEX has been a brutal market.

jplatts · Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:36 pm

Another factor that limits WN on HOU-MEX is that WN doesn't currently have nonstop to HOU from CVG, CLE, DTW, and MSP, whereas AA serves all 4 of these destinations nonstop from DFW and UA serves all 4 of these destinations nonstop from IAH. DL also offers connections onto AM's AUS-MEX, DFW-MEX, and IAH-MEX flights from CVG, DTW, and MSP, even though AUS, DFW, and IAH aren't hubs or focus cities for DL.

While WN doesn't currently have nonstop international service out of PHX, WN could add nonstop service to MEX, PVR, SJD, and CUN out of PHX in order to better compete against AA in the PHX market.

Jshank83 · Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:07 pm

jplatts wrote:
Another factor that limits WN on HOU-MEX is that WN doesn't currently have nonstop to HOU from CVG, CLE, DTW, and MSP, whereas AA serves all 4 of these destinations nonstop from DFW and UA serves all 4 of these destinations nonstop from IAH. DL also offers connections onto AM's AUS-MEX, DFW-MEX, and IAH-MEX flights from CVG, DTW, and MSP, even though AUS, DFW, and IAH aren't hubs or focus cities for DL.

While WN doesn't currently have nonstop international service out of PHX, WN could add nonstop service to MEX, PVR, SJD, and CUN out of PHX in order to better compete against AA in the PHX market.

If any of those routes made a difference I am sure when would start them. I am sure WN knows better than anyone no here the reason why they haven't. I doubt not having CVG-HOU is really having much of an effect on HOU-MEX.

drdisque · Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:30 pm

I suspect UA will apply to resume DEN-MEX service.

alggag · Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:34 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I'm suprised they didn't try MEX-MDW or even MEX-SMF both those markets have a huge drawl just on the US side for VFR travel.
I see a complete withdrawal from MEX next year.

Flyguy

I'm also surprised that they never at least tried MDW-MEX.

I agree that if they can't make HOU-MEX work then that pretty much means they'll only being flying to beach/tourist markets for a long time.

LightChop2Chop · Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:40 pm

Hasn't WN opened a CTO in SJO? MEX would need a CTO to help with POS MEX traffic. But, yes they do take international credit cards ( I myself have a ScotiaBank card from a Caribbean country and I have used it quite a few times to buy WN tickets from MBJ)

jjbiv · Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:15 am

If you pay in dollars, you can use a foreign card. Where WN runs into trouble is when customers want to purchase a ticket in a non-USD currency.

USAirKid · Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:17 am

jjbiv wrote:
If you pay in dollars, you can use a foreign card. Where WN runs into trouble is when customers want to purchase a ticket in a non-USD currency.

Isn't it also just a matter of visibility? If you're in the country where WN serves, you probably don't know about the airline and they don't sell tickets on the GDSs, so you don't know to look at their website?

janders · Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:47 pm

Now they will ax Mexico City entirely March 30

Southwest Airlines to drop flights to Mexico City in March
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/sou ... city-march

LAXintl · Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:51 pm

Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

jfklganyc · Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:59 pm

B6 hasnt been all that lucky in MEX either.

Im surprised because WN is so Texas heavy...you think they could make it work

dcajet · Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:27 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
B6 hasnt been all that lucky in MEX either.

Im surprised because WN is so Texas heavy...you think they could make it work

Southwest's sales & distribution model does not work well on a route where the POS is not primarily the US; food for thought if the airline ever decides to push its international growth beyond the beach destinations that have the US as their feeder market.

Jshank83 · Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:37 pm

What is keeping them from selling tickets in Mexico? Seems like a big hindrance on non leisure routes

alggag · Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:01 am

Disappointing but I can't say I'm surprised. I flew HOU-MEX-HOU quite a few times and the flights were never more than 50% full and the ticket was always dirt cheap.

wnflyguy · Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:19 am

LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

I 100% agree with you.
Also I think it's mind blowing they can't figure out International ticket sales. But let's be honest my be loved WN can't even get reliable WiFi on it's airplanes. I'm guessing the 500 million dollar One RES took WN from 1972 technology to only 1992 technology.
I don't hold out much hope for Place's like SJO,LIR or HAV in the long run.

Flyguy

usflyguy · Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:56 am

wnflyguy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

I 100% agree with you.
Also I think it's mind blowing they can't figure out International ticket sales. But let's be honest my be loved WN can't even get reliable WiFi on it's airplanes. I'm guessing the 500 million dollar One RES took WN from 1972 technology to only 1992 technology.
I don't hold out much hope for Place's like SJO,LIR or HAV in the long run.

Flyguy

Except SJO and LIR are almost entirely folks going to resorts. Totally different markets than MEX.

dcajet · Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:43 am

Jshank83 wrote:
What is keeping them from selling tickets in Mexico? Seems like a big hindrance on non leisure routes

If you are not a household name in a market like Mexico City and you only sell and distribute through your own channels, chances are the local travelers will not find/choose you for their trip to the USA.

Jshank83 · Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:17 am

dcajet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
What is keeping them from selling tickets in Mexico? Seems like a big hindrance on non leisure routes

If you are not a household name in a market like Mexico City and you only sell and distribute through your own channels, chances are the local travelers will not find/choose you for their trip to the USA.

It’s hard to know if you don’t even try to sell them in Mexico. I would tend to agree they aren’t going to sell a ton on the Mexican side but any amount helps.

maps4ltd · Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:17 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Internationally, WN needs to decide if their domestic US operational paradigm will translate to non-leisure markets. I've never flown WN internationally and their offerings ex-STL via "wherever" are sparse indeed. I looked at the STL-NAS via FLL and dear GOD, a 5:45 am departure from STL and return was getting in at some ungodly hour. Only 1 option, I chose DL, Their strategy is not working in some places, and its showing.

Interesting. To go back home from NAS to STL in March, it was $450 for a 4-hour connection in FLL. Delta was running through ATL at a much more reasonable hour for $280. The only reason we chose WN is that my wife holds a companion pass--out of STL, that is often a dealbreaker.

Jshank83 · Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:20 am

wnflyguy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Funny stuff. Americas largest leisure carrier cant make service between its hub and one of the worlds most populous cities work.

I really think this entire episode and WN other experiences in non US driven point of sale Latin markets goes back to issue with sales and distribution.

I 100% agree with you.
Also I think it's mind blowing they can't figure out International ticket sales. But let's be honest my be loved WN can't even get reliable WiFi on it's airplanes. I'm guessing the 500 million dollar One RES took WN from 1972 technology to only 1992 technology.
I don't hold out much hope for Place's like SJO,LIR or HAV in the long run.

Flyguy

I thought I heard Cuba was the only intl market you can actually buy from. Which seems really odd.

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