lemme
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:31 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:28 am

I plotted the granular ADS-B data which shows a lateral move right to left just prior to landing. Speed and vertical profile looked normal, expected touchdown as planned. no data until near runway exit, 49 knots. Estimate EMAS entry 35-40 knots. Lack of deceleration uncertain, but rainfall rates make standing water a likely factor.
Lots of background about stopping airplanes.
https://www.satcom.guru/2018/12/stopping-distance.html
 
maint123
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:49 am

So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?
 
kiowa
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:31 pm

maint123 wrote:
So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?



Not sure how to take your post. "stuff happens" is not adequate as nothing changes. The last Southwest crash at Burbank caused changes that could have saved lives on this current Southwest crash at Burbank.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:49 pm

kiowa wrote:
maint123 wrote:
So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?



Not sure how to take your post. "stuff happens" is not adequate as nothing changes. The last Southwest crash at Burbank caused changes that could have saved lives on this current Southwest crash at Burbank.

You should take it as flame bait. That’s what was intended.

If WN procedure says no landing above 5knot tail wind in sloppy conditions seems to be pilot error.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
CanesFan
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:19 pm

Assuming no systems failures, likely pilot error due to pilots not recognizing that conditions have deteriorated to the point where a safe landing cannot be accomplished. Or something like that.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?
 
Bradin
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:05 pm

Burbank Tower ATC conversation said that a 737 reported good braking action 10 minutes prior to the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNNnRluUi8M
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:09 pm

If it's true that they were still going 40knots how much additional runway is needed in normal conditions to brake from 40-0?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1223
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:55 pm

kiowa wrote:
maint123 wrote:
So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?



Not sure how to take your post. "stuff happens" is not adequate as nothing changes. The last Southwest crash at Burbank caused changes that could have saved lives on this current Southwest crash at Burbank.

I think what you mean is that because of changes implemented from the first overrun, no lives were lost on this most recent overrun. When I first read your comment, I thought you were implying lives were lost. My bad.

As plus, there were not any injuries reported and the plane might even be able to fly after repair. :bigthumbsup:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't see a reason to delegate blame either.........................But if I did, I would blame the Orange One.
 
estorilm
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:27 pm

ikramerica wrote:
kiowa wrote:
maint123 wrote:
So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?



Not sure how to take your post. "stuff happens" is not adequate as nothing changes. The last Southwest crash at Burbank caused changes that could have saved lives on this current Southwest crash at Burbank.

You should take it as flame bait. That’s what was intended.

If WN procedure says no landing above 5knot tail wind in sloppy conditions seems to be pilot error.

Exactly - looks simple to me. Doesn't matter what runways are available, that's an ops issue - if the tower gives runway XYZ and it's not acceptable, then divert.

I haven't seen anyone mention that METARs before and after were showing RA++ and ~14kt tail winds as well. Almost sounds like a joke.
 
Chaostheory
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:18 pm

estorilm wrote:

I haven't seen anyone mention that METARs before and after were showing RA++ and ~14kt tail winds as well. Almost sounds like a joke.


If this is the case, then it was sheer lunacy on part of the crew.

From memory, an A320 needs 300-400ft additional runway per 5 knots tail wind and I'm assuming the numbers aren't too different for the 737. Couple that with a rain soaked runway with poor to medium braking and potential for hydroplane. They're lucky the EMAS was there.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 2949
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:25 pm

maint123 wrote:
So what's the conclusion of the "experts" here?
A major American Airlines crashes its flight on landing.
The pilot is not at fault.
The runway is not at fault.
The controller is not at fault.
A Boeing plane of course is never at fault.

Cant we all just blame God close the topic ?


It’s the asphalt! :bigthumbsup:
 
estorilm
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:46 pm

Chaostheory wrote:
estorilm wrote:

I haven't seen anyone mention that METARs before and after were showing RA++ and ~14kt tail winds as well. Almost sounds like a joke.


If this is the case, then it was sheer lunacy on part of the crew.

From memory, an A320 needs 300-400ft additional runway per 5 knots tail wind and I'm assuming the numbers aren't too different for the 737. Couple that with a rain soaked runway with poor to medium braking and potential for hydroplane. They're lucky the EMAS was there.

Exactly.. this was within a 15 minute span of total METARs before and after (so 7ish before and after) but obviously that paints a general idea of the conditions at the time, and the previous METAR may give a better indication of runway conditions if it hadn't drained yet. Even if 14 was peak, 10 was the lowest of the bunch I believe. The accident METAR seems to be the optimistic one, and even then it was sketchy at best. I'd assume weather info they received en-route and during clearance included some RA++ and tailwinds that were even worse.

Not that it really matters, even the wx info indicated was beyond minimums from the calculations posted above. Maybe they tweaked a few things to get it to "fit" - but I've also heard that a low approach is very difficult if not impossible on that runway unless you dive it nose-down or skim some shingles off a roof. Any sort of normal approach for that runway would also add distance to the raw calculations, which may be optimistic for that runway.
 
User avatar
terence757
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:35 pm

Flew out of BUR yesterday. The damage to the EMAS is visible, looks like a fairly small percentage of the overall tiles were damaged. Did not see where the aircraft is now located.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:33 pm

estorilm wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
estorilm wrote:

I haven't seen anyone mention that METARs before and after were showing RA++ and ~14kt tail winds as well. Almost sounds like a joke.


If this is the case, then it was sheer lunacy on part of the crew.

From memory, an A320 needs 300-400ft additional runway per 5 knots tail wind and I'm assuming the numbers aren't too different for the 737. Couple that with a rain soaked runway with poor to medium braking and potential for hydroplane. They're lucky the EMAS was there.

Exactly.. this was within a 15 minute span of total METARs before and after (so 7ish before and after) but obviously that paints a general idea of the conditions at the time, and the previous METAR may give a better indication of runway conditions if it hadn't drained yet. Even if 14 was peak, 10 was the lowest of the bunch I believe. The accident METAR seems to be the optimistic one, and even then it was sketchy at best. I'd assume weather info they received en-route and during clearance included some RA++ and tailwinds that were even worse.

Not that it really matters, even the wx info indicated was beyond minimums from the calculations posted above. Maybe they tweaked a few things to get it to "fit" - but I've also heard that a low approach is very difficult if not impossible on that runway unless you dive it nose-down or skim some shingles off a roof. Any sort of normal approach for that runway would also add distance to the raw calculations, which may be optimistic for that runway.

Thing is, diversion wasn’t even the next option as conditions weren’t projected to stay that bad, so 20-30 minutes of holding would have been enough.

I was checking the radar and looking out the window at the time and it wasn’t safe to drive a car at the time of the accident (my wife stayed home) but we could see that it would clear up within 20 minutes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kiowa
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:53 pm

I am curious if the Southwest pilots are grounded pending investigation.
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:58 pm

Lots of hard info yet to come out but on initial details it looks like SWA pilots pushing on the edge of the envelope as they usually do. I fly them regularly and it doesn't bother me but these two guys may pay the price (one or both depending on their individual willingness to attempt the landing).

Had a good laugh thanks to a ikramerica about it raining too hard to drive. You are welcome to come visit us in Atlanta, Georgia during the summer when driving in T-Storms is a part of existence. Experience, minimum 50% tread, good wipers and Rain-X easily allows 60-70+ on I85. Amazing how dry So-Cal is to cause a drop in rain driving comfort ;)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:01 pm

EAARbrat wrote:
Lots of hard info yet to come out but on initial details it looks like SWA pilots pushing on the edge of the envelope as they usually do. I fly them regularly and it doesn't bother me but these two guys may pay the price (one or both depending on their individual willingness to attempt the landing).

Had a good laugh thanks to a ikramerica about it raining too hard to drive. You are welcome to come visit us in Atlanta, Georgia during the summer when driving in T-Storms is a part of existence. Experience, minimum 50% tread, good wipers and Rain-X easily allows 60-70+ on I85. Amazing how dry So-Cal is to cause a drop in rain driving comfort ;)

Please. I’ve been through plenty of rain. I’ve lived in Florida, Ohio, and the northeast. What’s your point.

For 15-30 minutes the conditions were unsafe. Your area is relatively flat. We have valleys with steep slopes “foothills” that reach 2000 feet with 8000 foot mountains behind them. Clouds go up against them and the mountains win. Roads are built on them with no storm drains...

Our hillside street was a river at that time. Nearby streets flooded, stranding drivers. Power was out around the area, traffic lights had shut down or gone gladking red. Oh, And a 737 skidded off the runway nearly crashing into traffic.

We found a trip to the mall with a baby in the car to be unnecessary at that time. Sorry that safety is funny to you. Maybe WN is looking for a pilot?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:13 pm

EAARbrat wrote:
Lots of hard info yet to come out but on initial details it looks like SWA pilots pushing on the edge of the envelope as they usually do. I fly them regularly and it doesn't bother me but these two guys may pay the price (one or both depending on their individual willingness to attempt the landing).

Had a good laugh thanks to a ikramerica about it raining too hard to drive. You are welcome to come visit us in Atlanta, Georgia during the summer when driving in T-Storms is a part of existence. Experience, minimum 50% tread, good wipers and Rain-X easily allows 60-70+ on I85. Amazing how dry So-Cal is to cause a drop in rain driving comfort ;)


Atlanta drivers have a hard earned reputation (not always all that good, either) ...

The other day, in a driving rainstorm, through a construction zone, one of the highway Info boards stated :

I-285 / Exit 4
8 Miles Ahead
Avg Trvl Time 5-7 min

Do some math and think about what that means for min/max speeds. No wrecks reported, too.
 
kiowa
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:28 pm

litz wrote:
EAARbrat wrote:
Lots of hard info yet to come out but on initial details it looks like SWA pilots pushing on the edge of the envelope as they usually do. I fly them regularly and it doesn't bother me but these two guys may pay the price (one or both depending on their individual willingness to attempt the landing).

Had a good laugh thanks to a ikramerica about it raining too hard to drive. You are welcome to come visit us in Atlanta, Georgia during the summer when driving in T-Storms is a part of existence. Experience, minimum 50% tread, good wipers and Rain-X easily allows 60-70+ on I85. Amazing how dry So-Cal is to cause a drop in rain driving comfort ;)


Atlanta drivers have a hard earned reputation (not always all that good, either) ...

The other day, in a driving rainstorm, through a construction zone, one of the highway Info boards stated :

I-285 / Exit 4
8 Miles Ahead
Avg Trvl Time 5-7 min

Do some math and think about what that means for min/max speeds. No wrecks reported, too.




Are you suggesting that the Southwest pilots in the Burbank crash were from Atlanta or Atlanta based?
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2181
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:31 pm

Everyone in ATL thinks they are NASCAR drivers.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:49 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Everyone in ATL thinks they are NASCAR drivers.

In CA there are two dangerous types of drivers in the rain.

A. The so overly cautious they are dangerous group.
B. The “rain? What’s rain? Do I slow down for that?” Group

A. Causes tons of rear ending accidents. Saw many that day being cleaned up.
B. Causes many “car off the exit ramp” accidents each and every rain storm. Also routinely big rig truck drivers fall in this group and then crash into the center divider and catch fire. Pasadena routinely has those in I210.

The WN pilots were from group B.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 20284
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:16 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Everyone in ATL thinks they are NASCAR drivers.

Every Masshole is! :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:53 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
Everyone in ATL thinks they are NASCAR drivers.


Obviously you haven't been to Atlanta in the last decade LOL, most are significantly more interested in Bull Dawgs football than NASCAR.
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:56 pm

kiowa wrote:
Are you suggesting that the Southwest pilots in the Burbank crash were from Atlanta or Atlanta based?


LOL, no :)
 
EAARbrat
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:39 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:10 pm

I have unique perspective having lived on Long Island for 42 years and moving to the ATL/NE GA area. Drove commercially with passengers for a while in NY. Lots of snow and ice time all around. So rain is a cake walk, although to be fair having a 5000 lb. truck now does help with weight on the wheels. Narrower tires on my cars helps too, as long as you maintain the proper load rating. All about fresh tires (no dry rotting and no less than 1/3 tread) every 2-3 year and firmer than door sticker air pressures (40 ish). I always buy low rolling resistance tires with minimum 51 PSI max pressure. A bit firmer ride but the control and mileage difference makes it a no brainer :)

Sorry for the car talk on the airliners board ;)
 
kiowa
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:53 pm

EAARbrat wrote:
I have unique perspective having lived on Long Island for 42 years and moving to the ATL/NE GA area. Drove commercially with passengers for a while in NY. Lots of snow and ice time all around. So rain is a cake walk, although to be fair having a 5000 lb. truck now does help with weight on the wheels. Narrower tires on my cars helps too, as long as you maintain the proper load rating. All about fresh tires (no dry rotting and no less than 1/3 tread) every 2-3 year and firmer than door sticker air pressures (40 ish). I always buy low rolling resistance tires with minimum 51 PSI max pressure. A bit firmer ride but the control and mileage difference makes it a no brainer :)

Sorry for the car talk on the airliners board ;)


Car talk is always good:)
 
SWApilotfarmer
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:48 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:35 am

crownvic wrote:
Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?



The aircraft N752SW was flown to MCI on Dec 14th. Not sure how much work was done in BUR or what is being done in MCI.
 
WN732
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:23 am

SWApilotfarmer wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?



The aircraft N752SW was flown to MCI on Dec 14th. Not sure how much work was done in BUR or what is being done in MCI.


It appears to be parked at the Aviation Technical Services ramp at MCI. They do a lot of work for WN. They flew it over at FL410, so there definitely does not seem to be a pressurization issue. I bet this airplane will return to service.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 1143
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:10 am

WN732 wrote:
SWApilotfarmer wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?



The aircraft N752SW was flown to MCI on Dec 14th. Not sure how much work was done in BUR or what is being done in MCI.


It appears to be parked at the Aviation Technical Services ramp at MCI. They do a lot of work for WN. They flew it over at FL410, so there definitely does not seem to be a pressurization issue. I bet this airplane will return to service.


This plane already flew? There were no damage or was the damage so minor it was able to flt in such short time? Wow.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
KICT
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:32 am

gokmengs wrote:
Wow.

They've got a lot of practice at BUR line maintenance.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
kiowa
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:38 pm

SWApilotfarmer wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?



The aircraft N752SW was flown to MCI on Dec 14th. Not sure how much work was done in BUR or what is being done in MCI.


How about the pilots? Did they go back to flying or did the FAA require them get additional training before they return to work?
 
arfbool
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:02 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:38 am

WN732 wrote:
SWApilotfarmer wrote:
crownvic wrote:
Status of plane?? where is it?? How was it removed?



The aircraft N752SW was flown to MCI on Dec 14th. Not sure how much work was done in BUR or what is being done in MCI.


It appears to be parked at the Aviation Technical Services ramp at MCI. They do a lot of work for WN. They flew it over at FL410, so there definitely does not seem to be a pressurization issue. I bet this airplane will return to service.


Airplane is scheduled to do a commercial flight on Tuesday:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N75 ... /KBWI/KBNA
 
arfbool
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:02 am

Re: Southwest 737 overran runway at BUR

Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:55 pm

And it looks like I'm wrong...now there's no trace of this in Flight Aware. Must have been a glitch or error of some kind. We'll have to keep waiting to see if this plane reappears I suppose.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos