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Wynnster8
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Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:10 pm

According to https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/30/burling ... al-flight/

Porter Airlines is cutting Burlington, VT due to low passenger numbers and extra time needed on the ground for immigration.

Flights may continue next winter with YTZ's Preclearance done.
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mtnwest1979
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:59 pm

And all those that thought that this would be a viable route please stand up...…..
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
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spinkid
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:08 am

mtnwest1979 wrote:
And all those that thought that this would be a viable route please stand up...…..


Seemed viable to me, until I realized it was a Winter seasonal flight. Canadians have plenty of other places to ski besides Vermont.
 
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ssteve
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:29 am

spinkid wrote:
mtnwest1979 wrote:
And all those that thought that this would be a viable route please stand up...…..


Seemed viable to me, until I realized it was a Winter seasonal flight. Canadians have plenty of other places to ski besides Vermont.


While I find myself surprised to ride the lifts with people from Ontario, they drive.

The Canadians that we see at BTV speak French, and are likely to be boarding flights such as the Frontier flight to Orlando mentioned in the article...
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:46 am

Actually in the Rest of New England thread an alternative issue was raised, it wasn’t demand or customs issues , they put it down to a ground staff availability issue for less than daily service https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/ ... ial-flight
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
master14225
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:57 am

Speaking of which, when will preclearance be done at YTZ? I'm flying out of there to Chicago Midway in 2 weeks.
 
mjgbtv
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:24 pm

mtnwest1979 wrote:
And all those that thought that this would be a viable route please stand up...…..


It did last for 8 years...
 
sgbroimp
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:06 pm

Just amazing to me that Canadians and American have to clear each other's customs when Germans and French haven't done so for many years. I mean weren't these folks at war a couple of times????
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:39 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
Just amazing to me that Canadians and American have to clear each other's customs when Germans and French haven't done so for many years. I mean weren't these folks at war a couple of times????
Indeed!

However, that closeness / friendship / common values has not been very apparent on trade discussions lately. Nor has it been with other close allies.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:46 pm

mtnwest1979 wrote:
And all those that thought that this would be a viable route please stand up...…..


This route was flown for years and is scheduled to come back when the pre-clearance facility is done.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 pm

The advent of U.S. pre-clearance at YTZ will be a game changer for PD. I doubt anybody in Eastern Canada with business, family, friends or simply vacation activities in downtown Toronto questions the convenience of YTZ. YYZ has become quite a mess in recent years, after all. However, as it stands today, the value proposition of PD/YTZ for transborder pax (especially the FFer variety) is surely lost when arriving pax risk getting stuck in long customs and immigration lines at places like EWR or IAD. It will be interesting to see if PD continues serving boutique leisure markets like BTV, MLB and MYR or shifts resources to more lucrative business markets (DCA and LGA if they can get slots, perhaps BDL, BWI, CLE, CLT, DTW, MSP, PHL, RDU, etc.) when YTZ pre-clearance is up and running...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:02 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
Just amazing to me that Canadians and American have to clear each other's customs when Germans and French haven't done so for many years. I mean weren't these folks at war a couple of times????

That is because there is no EU equivalent in North America. North Americans, unlike some Europeans, don’t try and pretend to be one country. Patriotism, the nation state and Love of one’s country are dirty words among Europe’s elites. Less soo in North America. Though PM Justin is certainly trying.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:05 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
The advent of U.S. pre-clearance at YTZ will be a game changer for PD. I doubt anybody in Eastern Canada with business, family, friends or simply vacation activities in downtown Toronto questions the convenience of YTZ. YYZ has become quite a mess in recent years, after all. However, as it stands today, the value proposition of PD/YTZ for transborder pax (especially the FFer variety) is surely lost when arriving pax risk getting stuck in long customs and immigration lines at places like EWR or IAD. It will be interesting to see if PD continues serving boutique leisure markets like BTV, MLB and MYR or shifts resources to more lucrative business markets (DCA and LGA if they can get slots, perhaps BDL, BWI, CLE, CLT, DTW, MSP, PHL, RDU, etc.) when YTZ pre-clearance is up and running...

I think you’re getting a bit overly excited. YTZ doesn’t have much more room to handle many more additional flights.
 
aamd11
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:39 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
The advent of U.S. pre-clearance at YTZ will be a game changer for PD. I doubt anybody in Eastern Canada with business, family, friends or simply vacation activities in downtown Toronto questions the convenience of YTZ. YYZ has become quite a mess in recent years, after all. However, as it stands today, the value proposition of PD/YTZ for transborder pax (especially the FFer variety) is surely lost when arriving pax risk getting stuck in long customs and immigration lines at places like EWR or IAD. It will be interesting to see if PD continues serving boutique leisure markets like BTV, MLB and MYR or shifts resources to more lucrative business markets (DCA and LGA if they can get slots, perhaps BDL, BWI, CLE, CLT, DTW, MSP, PHL, RDU, etc.) when YTZ pre-clearance is up and running...

I think you’re getting a bit overly excited. YTZ doesn’t have much more room to handle many more additional flights.

Currently doesn't have any room for additional flights, realistically. There are 202 daily slots, PD has 172 and AC has 30. Air Canada runs a 15x daily YUL shuttle, and PD uses theirs often enough to retain them all (there's a use it or lose it slot system, requiring 80% use of each slot, if I recall correctly). For either to add a new route, a frequency elsewhere must be sacrified.

PD could scale back the triangle, and bring YOW/YUL down to 15x daily, that'd free up a few slots (maybe 6 or 7 slots depending on the day of the week). Some EWR frequency could be moved to LGA to maintain service levels to "New York" without cutting something else. For the markets they intend to serve, which are primarily business oriented, they would likely want 3 trips per day. They might be able to add two or three destinations with the tweaks outlined above (one being LGA), but anything much beyond that would require heavier cuts to the triangle, which would eliminate their frequency advantages, or reductions on other higher frequency services (MDW, BOS, YQT being 5+ daily).

PHL lost out to PIT for service a few years back. PIT was chosen due to the lower risk to the schedule integrity (GDP impact) and less direct competition, presumably also some incentives that made a difference to the numbers. Initially double daily, the flights did not do well, eventually being reduced to a single daily before being pulled entirely. PHL was the bigger market, but it has never been persued. That would likely be the next business market added, and would probably need to start with two daily at a minimum to have any appeal in the market. Perhaps pre-clearance brings PHL into view, but I suspect IAD could be swapped to DCA (pending slots being found), and perhaps LGA added or partially substituted for EWR. Pre-clearance certainly has advantages for Porter, but I'm not sure that will translate into new markets, perhaps just improvement in existing ones.
 
N766UA
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:43 am

Porter served BTV??
 
master14225
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:07 am

When will preclearance open at YTZ? There's no schedule anywhere online.
 
mjgbtv
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:52 pm

N766UA wrote:
Porter served BTV??


From 2011-2018. It was seasonal from late December to March and targeted toward skiers. The typical frequency was 2x per week, although it might have been higher at the beginning and/or during peak holiday times.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:49 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
The advent of U.S. pre-clearance at YTZ will be a game changer for PD. I doubt anybody in Eastern Canada with business, family, friends or simply vacation activities in downtown Toronto questions the convenience of YTZ. YYZ has become quite a mess in recent years, after all. However, as it stands today, the value proposition of PD/YTZ for transborder pax (especially the FFer variety) is surely lost when arriving pax risk getting stuck in long customs and immigration lines at places like EWR or IAD. It will be interesting to see if PD continues serving boutique leisure markets like BTV, MLB and MYR or shifts resources to more lucrative business markets (DCA and LGA if they can get slots, perhaps BDL, BWI, CLE, CLT, DTW, MSP, PHL, RDU, etc.) when YTZ pre-clearance is up and running...


MLB and MYR should be safe long-term as that's mostly Saturday flying when 1/4 of the fleet is sitting idle anyways. Evidently the new YOW and YQG MLB routes were successful enough in year 1 to warrant a return in year 2. A seasonal Saturday YOW-MYR would make sense too at some point.

aamd11 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
The advent of U.S. pre-clearance at YTZ will be a game changer for PD. I doubt anybody in Eastern Canada with business, family, friends or simply vacation activities in downtown Toronto questions the convenience of YTZ. YYZ has become quite a mess in recent years, after all. However, as it stands today, the value proposition of PD/YTZ for transborder pax (especially the FFer variety) is surely lost when arriving pax risk getting stuck in long customs and immigration lines at places like EWR or IAD. It will be interesting to see if PD continues serving boutique leisure markets like BTV, MLB and MYR or shifts resources to more lucrative business markets (DCA and LGA if they can get slots, perhaps BDL, BWI, CLE, CLT, DTW, MSP, PHL, RDU, etc.) when YTZ pre-clearance is up and running...

I think you’re getting a bit overly excited. YTZ doesn’t have much more room to handle many more additional flights.

Currently doesn't have any room for additional flights, realistically. There are 202 daily slots, PD has 172 and AC has 30. Air Canada runs a 15x daily YUL shuttle, and PD uses theirs often enough to retain them all (there's a use it or lose it slot system, requiring 80% use of each slot, if I recall correctly). For either to add a new route, a frequency elsewhere must be sacrified.

PD could scale back the triangle, and bring YOW/YUL down to 15x daily, that'd free up a few slots (maybe 6 or 7 slots depending on the day of the week). Some EWR frequency could be moved to LGA to maintain service levels to "New York" without cutting something else. For the markets they intend to serve, which are primarily business oriented, they would likely want 3 trips per day. They might be able to add two or three destinations with the tweaks outlined above (one being LGA), but anything much beyond that would require heavier cuts to the triangle, which would eliminate their frequency advantages, or reductions on other higher frequency services (MDW, BOS, YQT being 5+ daily).

PHL lost out to PIT for service a few years back. PIT was chosen due to the lower risk to the schedule integrity (GDP impact) and less direct competition, presumably also some incentives that made a difference to the numbers. Initially double daily, the flights did not do well, eventually being reduced to a single daily before being pulled entirely. PHL was the bigger market, but it has never been persued. That would likely be the next business market added, and would probably need to start with two daily at a minimum to have any appeal in the market. Perhaps pre-clearance brings PHL into view, but I suspect IAD could be swapped to DCA (pending slots being found), and perhaps LGA added or partially substituted for EWR. Pre-clearance certainly has advantages for Porter, but I'm not sure that will translate into new markets, perhaps just improvement in existing ones.


For PD's YOW/YUL-YTZ schedules, they vary them between 15x and 19x to coincide with the peaks and valleys of biz traffic demand...but they keep them at the 80% slot usage threshold as was mentioned is needed. About all PD can add at YTZ is more weekend flying. Maybe a place like CHS or SAV on a seasonal basis on weekends? DAY?
 
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gdg9
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:35 pm

How can YTZ open Preclearance when there are no U.S. carriers there? The laws changed after Abu Dhabi and now mandate a U.S. carrier at any Preclearance airport. Is there any actual construction being done on the area? I don't think there is?
@dfwtower
 
Dominion301
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:19 pm

gdg9 wrote:
How can YTZ open Preclearance when there are no U.S. carriers there? The laws changed after Abu Dhabi and now mandate a U.S. carrier at any Preclearance airport. Is there any actual construction being done on the area? I don't think there is?


The agreement was reached. The space has been built to accomodate preclearance at YTZ. US carriers will indirectly benefit from the facility (i.e. JetBlue's interline agreement with PD). Maybe PD will move in with B6 at BOS once preclearance is in place?
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:52 pm

I totally agree that customs clearance between Canada/US is massively inefficient and wasteful in terms of time lost and $$ spent. Why not just agree on how to protect "fortress North America" from the rest of the world? The current border set up seems more like a way to keep thousands of public sector workers employed in cushy jobs without accomplishing much. Did they stop the tens of thousands of Haitian/Nigerian refugees from pouring into Canada from the US during the last couple of years? No. Who actually are they apprehending? Both countries could save billions by eliminating customs like in the EU. The only people opposing such a change would be the border guards unions in both countries in my opinion at least.
 
master14225
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:59 pm

Maybe PD will also get slots to JFK too to get more flight options with B6. JFK is their biggest hub, BOS is nice but adding JFK will make YTZ a prime airport to fly to for one stop flights anywhere in the US. PD can add JFK without preclearance but I don't think passengers want to deal with the busiest US customs facility in the world. With Preclearance, the pax from YTZ escapes customs in JFK and then can board their B6 flight like they were coming from BUF or BTV.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
I totally agree that customs clearance between Canada/US is massively inefficient and wasteful in terms of time lost and $$ spent. Why not just agree on how to protect "fortress North America" from the rest of the world? The current border set up seems more like a way to keep thousands of public sector workers employed in cushy jobs without accomplishing much. Did they stop the tens of thousands of Haitian/Nigerian refugees from pouring into Canada from the US during the last couple of years? No. Who actually are they apprehending? Both countries could save billions by eliminating customs like in the EU. The only people opposing such a change would be the border guards unions in both countries in my opinion at least.


You'd have to harmonize immigration and customs laws to pull of something like that. The US and Canada would need a the equivalent of the EU single market and customs union for the US and Canada. Good luck getting the US to ever do something like that.

Just look at the situation with Brexit and Ireland/Northern Ireland today. Without fully aligning between the two countries, it gets hard to get rid of border crossings.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:40 pm

williaminsd wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
sgbroimp wrote:
Just amazing to me that Canadians and American have to clear each other's customs when Germans and French haven't done so for many years. I mean weren't these folks at war a couple of times????
Indeed!
However, that closeness / friendship / common values has not been very apparent on trade discussions lately. Nor has it been with other close allies.

If by "common values" you mean we no longer let alleged allies take advantage of us and our open markets, you are correct...
You do realize the US enjoys a trade surplus (in goods&services) with Canada, right?

Furthermore, Canada tends to sell more natural resources (like heavily discounted Alberta petroleum) to the US, while the US tends more to sell us manufactured goods.

What's your definition of "take advantage of us and our open markets" and how does it apply to Canada exactly?
 
N766UA
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:16 pm

mjgbtv wrote:
N766UA wrote:
Porter served BTV??


From 2011-2018. It was seasonal from late December to March and targeted toward skiers. The typical frequency was 2x per week, although it might have been higher at the beginning and/or during peak holiday times.


Wow, who knew? Haha. I used to live in VT and have flown in and out of BTV several times a month for the last year and a half and never saw Porter. Must have been a pretty niche, seasonal schedule.
 
baje427
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:31 pm

Those are my thoughts also especially for the winter flying to the Caribbean.

master14225 wrote:
Maybe PD will also get slots to JFK too to get more flight options with B6. JFK is their biggest hub, BOS is nice but adding JFK will make YTZ a prime airport to fly to for one stop flights anywhere in the US. PD can add JFK without preclearance but I don't think passengers want to deal with the busiest US customs facility in the world. With Preclearance, the pax from YTZ escapes customs in JFK and then can board their B6 flight like they were coming from BUF or BTV.
 
willenglish
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:32 pm

I think once the pre clearance opens, you’ll see this route return. It did last quite a while. I think PD won’t change a whole lot, although being able to get slots for LGA and DCA would be advantageous. Also, I could see them maybe starting PHL or RDU. Don’t think we’d see DTW, MSP or ATL.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:16 am

I have taken Porter. I can verify they were there for years The reason you didn't see them is customs was on the other side of the airport. So unless you had a charter or private plane would only see their departure.

The check in counter was there for years and years not sure how you missed that. They were just to the left of AA iirc.

The airport tried to convince them to do a different schedule, but they just kept flying with bad times year after year. I do think they will return after pre clearance, fingers crossed I bet frontier is taking their check in spot. I will be there this week I can look.
 
williaminsd
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Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:45 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Indeed!
However, that closeness / friendship / common values has not been very apparent on trade discussions lately. Nor has it been with other close allies.

If by "common values" you mean we no longer let alleged allies take advantage of us and our open markets, you are correct...
You do realize the US enjoys a trade surplus (in goods&services) with Canada, right?

Furthermore, Canada tends to sell more natural resources (like heavily discounted Alberta petroleum) to the US, while the US tends more to sell us manufactured goods.

What's your definition of "take advantage of us and our open markets" and how does it apply to Canada exactly?


You do realize "allies" is plural and suggests you are referring to more than one country, right?
 
master14225
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 6:38 am

Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:03 am

Also couldn't PD make money doing YUL-BOS & YUL-JFK with connections on B6 flights too? They could be money maker with increase of pax from both sides of PD and B6. Even YOW-BOS & YOW-JFK sounds profitable thanks to B6 flights. Both airports even have preclearance.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:02 pm

master14225 wrote:
Also couldn't PD make money doing YUL-BOS & YUL-JFK with connections on B6 flights too? They could be money maker with increase of pax from both sides of PD and B6. Even YOW-BOS & YOW-JFK sounds profitable thanks to B6 flights. Both airports even have preclearance.

That's a good point, but realistically, what would that offer that is not already offered by dozens of airlines already?

This was alluded when YTZ-BOS (or YTZ-JFK) was discussed earlier, the opportunity to fly to a connection point from Toronto's downtown airport. Remember, the passenger is primarily looking for a cheap seat and it is hard to offer a low cost fare through a busy and expensive hub and when the fare has to be divided between two carriers. Not to mention, YYZ is closer to about half of the residents of the GTA, and not much of a longer drive for those who aren't.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
B595
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:14 pm

spinkid wrote:
Seemed viable to me, until I realized it was a Winter seasonal flight. Canadians have plenty of other places to ski besides Vermont.

For authentic, big-mountain skiing, Toronto residents can:
1) Drive (or fly) to Quebec (Mont. Tremblant or Mont. Sainte Anne),
2) Drive (or fly) to Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine/New York,
3) Fly to the Canadian Rockies,
4) Fly to the US Rockies.

Save for Mont. Tremblant, the ski areas in northern Vermont (Stowe/Jay/Smugglers/Sugarbush) are the closest options, often by far.

So Toronto residents really don't have plenty of other places to ski if they want the big-mountain experience but don't want to travel 3000km.

When you factor in that the drive to Quebec or VT is +7 hours in good weather, it starts to be clear why these flights lasted eight years.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Porter Airlines Cuts Burlington, VT

Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:12 pm

PD flies from YTZ to Mont Tremblant during the winter months. I suspect that YYZ-YQB picks up a few skiers for Mont Ste.Anne etc.during winter too. Stowe/Jay Peak/Killington etc. are a fair drive from BTV which along with significantly higher costs in the US must have made it too hard to compete with Quebec for now I guess. Until the exchange rate in Canada recovers I doubt we'll see the BTV service re-instituted. When you add a 35% exchange factor prices in the U.S. are way higher than in Canada these days. A few years ago the currencies were at par.

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