Chemist
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:39 am

LAXBUR wrote:
Chemist wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
You had a financially conservative airline take over a lackluster financially performing airline and subsequently reduce seats. Now that things have stabilized perhaps they can refocus on building up LAX and SFO.

I’ve experience quite a few modest delays upon arrival because of no available gate at LAX for Alaska. Even without expansion more gates at operationally challenged LAX and delay prone SFO are a good thing.


I've had the gate delay at LAX for many airlines. It's a huge problem at that airport. Yet another reason I choose BUR whenever possible.


Well there are gate delays and alley delays. Not always the same thing. Nonetheless, extra gates help.


I have waited for alley delays but the biggest issue for me has been gates occupied by aircraft. I've had to sit over an hour on a remote pad with engines shut down waiting before. This often happens if you arrive early. You get to soak up the early time (and more) sitting on a taxiway unable to pee.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:00 am

wnflyguy wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
SJC I believe is a even split between WN and AS. 3 additional each.
Flyguy


That has not yet been confirmed.

Last I've heard WN requested 5 gates and AS requested 6.
Flyguy


Well almost half of A is now a combination of WN and AS. Those gates can't come fast enough, no matter who gets them.
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:17 am

Tack wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
AS expansion will come where they can make money. Doesn't feel like that is either SFO or LAX for them. So it will be SEA/PDX and maybe some secondary CA airports. They bought Virgin Ameirca to get rid of a competitor not to truly grow their network. Feels that way so far, maybe this will change, but currently I don't see it.


Just retired after 36 years with AS. At all the meetings I attended in the GO, I don’t remember anyone once saying that we were trying to rid ourselves of a competitor. What meeting were you at where that was mentioned? I must’ve missed it. Oh wait....lol...I bet you’re just an A.net guy with an opinion. If you’ve got some amazing info that I or my co-workers missed I’d love to chat, or better yet, DM me. Hate dudes who give their resume, but during my 36 years I was CSS in Toronto, Vladivostok, Mexico City as well as the PNNW, Bay Area and LAX, and worked extensively in the GO. Yet, your comment is news to me. Feel free to post a direct quote from an officer that specifically states the purchase was to oust a competitor. Standing by. Cheers.


Congratulations on your retirement & welcome to A.net. I think there are many of us that will enjoy your more refined perspective on these AS related issues. While it may have been said 100's of times by over zealous A.netters, each time the idea of AS just removing competition has come up, it's always been corrected by people like EA CO AS to reflect the true nature of the acquisition. It's by no means a belief or understanding by the myriad of members here.
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QXAS
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:39 am

Chemist wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
Chemist wrote:

I've had the gate delay at LAX for many airlines. It's a huge problem at that airport. Yet another reason I choose BUR whenever possible.


Well there are gate delays and alley delays. Not always the same thing. Nonetheless, extra gates help.


I have waited for alley delays but the biggest issue for me has been gates occupied by aircraft. I've had to sit over an hour on a remote pad with engines shut down waiting before. This often happens if you arrive early. You get to soak up the early time (and more) sitting on a taxiway unable to pee.
Two years ago, I was waiting for my flight up to SEA. I arrived 3 hours early (Connection). Half an hour in, the 100 year Boeing plane arrives on 25L. Two hours later it taxis up to my gate and unloads. Might it make sense for AS to invest in a set of airstairs and a bus or two for when this kind of situation happens? Two hours is a very long time to sit on a ramp after landing.
 
tphuang
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:29 pm

Tack wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Tack wrote:

Just retired after 36 years with AS. At all the meetings I attended in the CO, I don’t remember anyone once saying that we were trying to rid ourselves of a competitor. What meeting were you at where that was mentioned? I must’ve missed it. Oh wait....lol...I bet you’re just a wanna be A.net guy who has no clue what you’re talking about. If you’ve got some amazing info that I or my co-workers missed I’d love to chat, or better yet, DM me. Hate dudes who give their resume, but during my 36 years I was CSS in Toronto, Vladivostok, Mexico City as well as the PNNW, Bay Area and LAX, and worked extensively in the CO. Yet, your take is news to me. Feel free to post a direct quote from an officer that specifically states the purchase was to oust a competitor. Standing by. Cheers.


Actually, ever since talks of this merger first began, I've seen LOTS of comments on here stating that they were just trying to get rid of a competitor. I'm not necessarily saying that's true, but from an outsider's viewpoint, it makes sense why people would think that.


You nailed it with the ‘outsiders viewpoint’. Posting stuff on A.net is fun. Reading it, is fun. We all love rumors and Jets and flying and everything aviation. But that don’t make opinions fact. Cheers.


Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
Tack wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Actually, ever since talks of this merger first began, I've seen LOTS of comments on here stating that they were just trying to get rid of a competitor. I'm not necessarily saying that's true, but from an outsider's viewpoint, it makes sense why people would think that.


You nailed it with the ‘outsiders viewpoint’. Posting stuff on A.net is fun. Reading it, is fun. We all love rumors and Jets and flying and everything aviation. But that don’t make opinions fact. Cheers.


Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.

:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.
No, "FA" in my username does not stand for "flight attendant"...
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:04 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


<<This>>

AS has no plans to give up on SoCal and SFO...there's too much business to be had. They're trying to find what works out of two different markets...one dominated by UA and the other a free-for-all. AS buying VX woke UA up to expand out of its hub...maybe more aggressively anticipated but should not have been unexpected.

VX was a failing enterprise and they knew it...otherwise they'd still be around. People think they didn't have issues but they had many...tired equipment with no slack for maintenance and an unrealistic business plan with little room for growth outside of their existing markets. AS bought VX for one reason...keeping B6 off the west coast. It would have been like AS was trying to buy FL...B6 would have done whatever it took to keep that from happening if WN didn't exist. It wasn't to eliminate a competitor because VX was so small they really didn't offer much in the way of competition.
 
tphuang
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:35 pm

FA9295 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Tack wrote:

You nailed it with the ‘outsiders viewpoint’. Posting stuff on A.net is fun. Reading it, is fun. We all love rumors and Jets and flying and everything aviation. But that don’t make opinions fact. Cheers.


Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.

:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.
 
airzona11
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.

:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:16 pm

And since VX ended, there's been substantial expansion out of LAX to NYC and BOS. AS believes they have a niche to fill...and have placed their bet on generous upgrades to a FC cabin with a 41" pitch. No flat-beds seats but I don't see those as a plus unless you're on a eastbound redeye.
 
cschleic
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:16 pm

Take a look at page 15 of the investor presentation, which shows the network composition in 2013 vs. 2018. The merger also provided for geographic diversification, particularly in California which has an enormous population base and is one of the largest economies on earth. This has been discussed in other threads, too. The pre-merger Pacific Northwest concentration of 54% has been reduced to 42%, while California has increased from 15% to 25% and Midcon/East has gone from 4% to 10%. So they've diversified away from what probably was too much of a concentration in one part of the country with limited growth opportunities.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:18 pm

airzona11 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:20 pm

cschleic wrote:
Take a look at page 15 of the investor presentation, which shows the network composition in 2013 vs. 2018. The merger also provided for geographic diversification, particularly in California which has an enormous population base and is one of the largest economies on earth. This has been discussed in other threads, too. The pre-merger Pacific Northwest concentration of 54% has been reduced to 42%, while California has increased from 15% to 25% and Midcon/East has gone from 4% to 10%. So they've diversified away from what probably was too much of a concentration in one part of the country with limited growth opportunities.


Without going back and looking at the presentation (I did look through it previously), I think what's notable in that comparison is that they were measuring it by either flights or seats (can't remember now) and not marketshare. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Anyhow, they were presenting where they are putting their planes, not necessarily where they were gaining ground from a butts-in-seats or money-in-the-bank perspective.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:28 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.


How many people are living the 'trendy' lifestyle or are part of the 1%? A lot less than the other 90% of people that are looking for the lowest fare and a decent schedule.

Let AA, DL and B6 fight it out over putting butts in the seats of their lie-flat premium cabin...and not getting much of a premium for it at that. AS is looking to be in the sweet spot...competitive or lower fares with the big 3 and B6 in the front cabin and matching the fares of the NK's and F9's through their new Saver fares.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:30 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:

That has not yet been confirmed.

Last I've heard WN requested 5 gates and AS requested 6.
Flyguy


Well almost half of A is now a combination of WN and AS. Those gates can't come fast enough, no matter who gets them.


And that is now 6 new gates, in addition to the 2 new ones opened earlier, correct?
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.

:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


You seem to have access to data that others don’t. I find it interesting that VX did so “well” with only 8 first class seats and a handful of main cabin select seats - from which I saw were almost always available to JFK in my anaecdotal experience out of LAX. Based on your numerous posts it seems as if Alaska isn’t making money on any routes. At least that’s what narrative seems to be developing from your posts.

Also, can you confirm more cuts to come? Or is this just an opinion of your own? It isn’t unprecedented for an airline to continue to compete on tough routes or keep “vanity” routes. I’m not saying you’re wrong. But curious how you came up with “more cuts” when the company has alluded to growth in the linked article.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:49 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.


This is an interesting point. VX had an...unusual clientele. The trendy, hipster, Silicon Valley types. XV captured that demographic, but evidently there weren’t enough of them to make money flying them around. So where did they *go*?

Another interesting issue you raise suggests that AS might be trying to be all things to all demographics. Is that even possible nowadays?
 
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:51 pm

tphuang wrote:
Nobody is saying that these are fact.


Are you for real? The "they only did this to kill a competitor" lie has quite literally been the NUMBER ONE STATEMENT from every VX-loving, AS-hating, armchair CEO here that posts on the subject, and I've been routinely refuting that since...hmm, let me check...

...oh, April 4, 2016.

Yep, the very day the deal was announced, the hand-wringing, woe-is-me crowd who loved hip, trendy, we-placed-cash-in-a-pile-and-burned-it-for-fun VX swore that AS decided to spend $2.6B just to rid themselves of a competitor....one who only overlapped them on six routes.

The fact is, and remains, that AS saw an opportunity to buy in one fell swoop an expansion that would have taken them 20 years and a lot more than $2.6B to build organically, keeping that turnkey operation out of the hands of a much more nimble competitor in the form of B6.

Anyone saying otherwise is either uninformed, lying, or just flat-out trolling.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirFiero
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:55 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.


How many people are living the 'trendy' lifestyle or are part of the 1%? A lot less than the other 90% of people that are looking for the lowest fare and a decent schedule.

Let AA, DL and B6 fight it out over putting butts in the seats of their lie-flat premium cabin...and not getting much of a premium for it at that. AS is looking to be in the sweet spot...competitive or lower fares with the big 3 and B6 in the front cabin and matching the fares of the NK's and F9's through their new Saver fares.


Another angle to consider...the so called “1%” tend to have their own private aircraft. The next lower demographic will charter or have jet sharing. Then you get to the F-class demo. The former XV hipsters probably don’t number too many who are in the private jet class, and they were never in play for the airlines. So who is the core demographic former to XV and now up for grabs? Meaning, who are they, what do they pay and are they the lucrative passengers the airlines need for their bottom line?
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:03 pm

AirFiero wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.


This is an interesting point. VX had an...unusual clientele. The trendy, hipster, Silicon Valley types. XV captured that demographic, but evidently there weren’t enough of them to make money flying them around. So where did they *go*?

Another interesting issue you raise suggests that AS might be trying to be all things to all demographics. Is that even possible nowadays?


This is my opinion and anecdotal experience. VX for the most part had semi-frequent flyers. I have no doubt Alaska has lost quite a few of these folks. But VX had a small network with not many FF perks. I knew a handful of people that left VX prior to the merger for Delta - because DL improved their LAX and premium service over the last few years. And DL can get you way more places than VX could. I don’t know if Alaska will make much headway in transcon but in the long run I think they’ll do as well or better than if VX had stuck around with their very niche product.
 
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm

AirFiero wrote:
VX had an...unusual clientele. The trendy, hipster, Silicon Valley types. XV captured that demographic, but evidently there weren’t enough of them to make money flying them around. So where did they *go*?


The VX crowd, like most trendy, hipster types, is fiercely passionate about something....right up until they're suddenly, inexplicably *not* anymore. They're far more brand-agnostic than they appear, and data proved that when VX offered a low fare and UA or others matched, they'd usually go with UA or anyone else they had FF memberships with, because they could build their status while enjoying the low fare UA now had, courtesy of VX.

So, where did they go? Well, most stayed with AS. Many didn't, of course, but the majority has, and they're largely happy because they can now use their former Elevate points as their new AS Mileage Plan miles to travel on not just a limited network like VX, but to over 900 worldwide destinations on AS and all the global partner airlines.

You asked a great question about AS trying to be all things to everyone, and the answer is no, they're not. A great example of this is the premium domestic F market; at it's core, it is a very limited market that is exceptionally high cost, and chasing an extremely small number of customers. AS would much rather have broader appeal to a much larger crowd, because that is where there's money to be made, not in a premium transcon "arms race" where each carrier one-ups the others every 5 years with newer, more expensive seats, and so on.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
cschleic
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:12 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
cschleic wrote:
Take a look at page 15 of the investor presentation, which shows the network composition in 2013 vs. 2018. The merger also provided for geographic diversification, particularly in California which has an enormous population base and is one of the largest economies on earth. This has been discussed in other threads, too. The pre-merger Pacific Northwest concentration of 54% has been reduced to 42%, while California has increased from 15% to 25% and Midcon/East has gone from 4% to 10%. So they've diversified away from what probably was too much of a concentration in one part of the country with limited growth opportunities.


Without going back and looking at the presentation (I did look through it previously), I think what's notable in that comparison is that they were measuring it by either flights or seats (can't remember now) and not marketshare. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Anyhow, they were presenting where they are putting their planes, not necessarily where they were gaining ground from a butts-in-seats or money-in-the-bank perspective.


True, certainly there's a difference, and I thought about that while writing the post. But the general point was diversification and expanding into new markets. That's the opportunity and their strategy, not just eliminating a competitor. Recognizing that this is anecdotal.....While I haven't flown AS intra-California, I have been on many flights to/from MCO, TPA, FLL, IAD, ORD, STL, ATL, JFK, EWR, DFW. They've all been very full.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:30 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
.

The VX crowd, like most trendy, hipster types, is fiercely passionate about something....right up until they're suddenly, inexplicably *not* anymore. They're far more brand-agnostic than they appear, and data proved that when VX offered a low fare and UA or others matched, they'd usually go with UA or anyone else they had FF memberships with, because they could build their status while enjoying the low fare UA now had, courtesy of VX.


In other words, fiercely loyal and fiercely flaky. ;) A strange demographic to persue. Probably not one you can build an airline business upon.

So, where did they go? Well, most stayed with AS. Many didn't, of course, but the majority has, and they're largely happy because they can now use their former Elevate points as their new AS Mileage Plan miles to travel on not just a limited network like VX, but to over 900 worldwide destinations on AS and all the global partner airlines.


And therein lies one of the biggest challenges for an airline these days, frequent fliers. Makes it tough for new entrants and smaller airlines.

You asked a great question about AS trying to be all things to everyone, and the answer is no, they're not. A great example of this is the premium domestic F market; at it's core, it is a very limited market that is exceptionally high cost, and chasing an extremely small number of customers. AS would much rather have broader appeal to a much larger crowd, because that is where there's money to be made, not in a premium transcon "arms race" where each carrier one-ups the others every 5 years with newer, more expensive seats, and so on.


That’s good news, because it would probably not work in the airline industry. Or any business. You have to pick your battles and your demographic to serve.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:46 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


You seem to have access to data that others don’t. I find it interesting that VX did so “well” with only 8 first class seats and a handful of main cabin select seats - from which I saw were almost always available to JFK in my anaecdotal experience out of LAX. Based on your numerous posts it seems as if Alaska isn’t making money on any routes. At least that’s what narrative seems to be developing from your posts.

Also, can you confirm more cuts to come? Or is this just an opinion of your own? It isn’t unprecedented for an airline to continue to compete on tough routes or keep “vanity” routes. I’m not saying you’re wrong. But curious how you came up with “more cuts” when the company has alluded to growth in the linked article.

Actually, some data is publicly accessible through the the Bureau of Transportation here: https://www.transtats.bts.gov/tables.as ... 1&DB_Name=

I find it pretty difficult to filter through the data though, TBH--and that may not be where tphuang gets the data from anyhow...
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SurfandSnow
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:50 pm

cschleic wrote:
Take a look at page 15 of the investor presentation, which shows the network composition in 2013 vs. 2018. The merger also provided for geographic diversification, particularly in California which has an enormous population base and is one of the largest economies on earth. This has been discussed in other threads, too. The pre-merger Pacific Northwest concentration of 54% has been reduced to 42%, while California has increased from 15% to 25% and Midcon/East has gone from 4% to 10%. So they've diversified away from what probably was too much of a concentration in one part of the country with limited growth opportunities.


This is a *very* important point. SEA and PDX have long been great hubs for AS (and will remain so, no doubt), but viable expansion opportunities from both are few and far between these days. The airline had already been turning to California for growth, particularly with the new E175s. Whereas new E175 routes like SEA-COS and PDX-STL failed, others like SJC-SNA and SAN-STL remain. At this point, I truly think an addition from California (SAN-ORD springs to mind) might fare better than any [risky] new route from PDX or SEA...
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airzona11
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:27 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


Well, "trendy" was their brand so anyone who was into that vibe would have enjoyed VX over some of the other options. Alaska is not "trendy" nor do they have a premium cabin that matches that of the other guys. They also don't have an equivalent presence on either end to those airlines. So, they lose a lot of the "trendy" crowd and they lose the high-end crowd, leaving them with the value crowd, which kills yields. If they were to introduce something more unique beyond the about-to-roll-out F class upgrades, then they might have a better shot at competing in that space, but for now they just can't.


What premium was VX capturing though? Trendy might have been their marketing, but they had small premium cabins that were inferior to the lie flat of competition. Is their data that shows AS killed the VX premium (was there a VX premium?).
 
BA
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:42 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Whereas new E175 routes like SEA-COS and PDX-STL failed, others like SJC-SNA and SAN-STL remain.


The Horizon Air pilot shortage was given as the reason for cutting SEA-COS.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pr-441200/
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:42 pm

I don't think we can assume that AS's decisions about the legacy VX network are connected to their long-term growth strategy at California airports. VX had a cost problem. Once AS is able to get the entire airline operating smoothly and on a cost base more typical of legacy AS, it will be able to compete more easily with UA from SFO and with "everybody and their dog" out of LAX.

I wouldn't be surprised to see AS do two things: 1) further expand frequency on core West Coast routes and 2) connect SFO and LAX to some of the higher-yielding existing AS outstations away from the West Coast. My view is that to succeed with that they will have to continue to offer two things, both of which could be threatened by an overzealous focus on costs: 1) a more attractive FF program than the legacies and 2) better and more personalized service. It will be a delicate balance.

airzona11 wrote:
What premium was VX capturing though? Trendy might have been their marketing, but they had small premium cabins that were inferior to the lie flat of competition. Is their data that shows AS killed the VX premium (was there a VX premium?).


People assuming VX had some sort of magical hold over premium flyers are focused too much on white leather and garish mood lighting. The truth is that AS attracts premium flyers too, and does it in ways that have nothing to do with hard product.
 
tphuang
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:06 pm

FA9295 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


You seem to have access to data that others don’t. I find it interesting that VX did so “well” with only 8 first class seats and a handful of main cabin select seats - from which I saw were almost always available to JFK in my anaecdotal experience out of LAX. Based on your numerous posts it seems as if Alaska isn’t making money on any routes. At least that’s what narrative seems to be developing from your posts.

Also, can you confirm more cuts to come? Or is this just an opinion of your own? It isn’t unprecedented for an airline to continue to compete on tough routes or keep “vanity” routes. I’m not saying you’re wrong. But curious how you came up with “more cuts” when the company has alluded to growth in the linked article.

Actually, some data is publicly accessible through the the Bureau of Transportation here: https://www.transtats.bts.gov/tables.as ... 1&DB_Name=

I find it pretty difficult to filter through the data though, TBH--and that may not be where tphuang gets the data from anyhow...


Yes, I have a script that goes through that data along with T-100 data to get avg and LF. I've been posting numbers for that for a while now.

What I noticed in the latest quarter that we have data for is that on routes like JFK/EWR/BOS-SFO/LAX, AS/VX had a huge drop in fares YoY in Q2. Which is weird because the fare difference between VX and the competitors were quite stable for several quarters. And that suddenly increased in Q2 for no other reason than being operated by AS. There was no change in equipments or personnel operating them. Maybe AS revenue management was giving away too many award tickets on the FC or making upgrades too easy/cheap. I don't know what the answer is. And I have no idea if that will continue to Q3/4. It seemed to me that VX revenue management actually did pretty well in revenue generation on these premium routes with just 8 seats, substandard premium product and small presence on both end. They are not the losers that AS supporters make them out to be.

I don't work for AS so I don't know what their plans are. I'm just looking at the data and their BOS-LAX numbers are significantly worse than many of routes they've already cut like SFO-FLL and MCO-LAX. Given the number of cuts they've already made at LAX, I would be surprised if BOS sticks around for another year.

airzona11 wrote:

This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


See my comments above. VX actually did better than expected in yields on those routes, which AS was not able to replicate.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Nobody is saying that these are fact. This is a forum, so other people have a right to express them.

Even if getting rid of a competitor was not the reason they purchased VX, that is by definition the result of such a purchase. Of all their hubs and focus cities, the 2 that have seen the least growth (or cuts) since merger are LAX and SFO. Now, I think that's just AS's inability to make VX's old network work. But to people who wanted another option at SFO/LAX growing against legacies, it's easy to think that eliminating a competitor is a motive.

And believe me, there will be more route cuts at SFO and LAX.

:checkmark: Yes. There's a reason why VX went under, and was subsequently bought by AS--so it's only natural that during the early stages of the merger that AS changes the ex-VX route network a bit because it originally didn't even work for VX in the first place.


I will tell you this though. In all the transcon routes that VX did well on before, AS has been doing significantly worse since April when VX AOC went away. so let's not just blame it all on VX. AS revenue management has a lot of work to do if it wants to stick around in premier transcon routes.


VX and AS went on the same operating certificate back in January, reservations were integrated in April, but both had already been on Sabre platforms. Changes to onboard product and service didn't sync up with either event.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:59 pm

BA wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Whereas new E175 routes like SEA-COS and PDX-STL failed, others like SJC-SNA and SAN-STL remain.


The Horizon Air pilot shortage was given as the reason for cutting SEA-COS.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pr-441200/


That may very well have been the excuse, ahem "reason" for ending SEA-COS. However, another service that was cut due to the QX pilot shortage - PDX-MCI - has since resumed. At this point, SEA-COS is probably not coming back. The failure of COS probably does not give AS much confidence when considering E175 service from SEA to smaller heartland markets (i.e. DSM, FAR, FSD, MSN, TUL). It will be interesting to see how SEA-ELP does. Further afield, as mainline equipment becomes necessary, there aren't many new market possibilities either. Does AS challenge AA with a resumption of SEA-MIA or giving SEA-CLT a try? Perhaps AS would be better off taking a gamble on something like SEA-CLE, SEA-BDL or SEA-RSW? The dilemma is much the same when it comes to PDX. Californian hubs and focus cities offer AS all kinds of expansion potential, even if it is the less sexy "connecting the dots" as oppose to new market service...
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BA
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:37 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
[That may very well have been the excuse, ahem "reason" for ending SEA-COS. However, another service that was cut due to the QX pilot shortage - PDX-MCI - has since resumed. At this point, SEA-COS is probably not coming back. The failure of COS probably does not give AS much confidence when considering E175 service from SEA to smaller heartland markets (i.e. DSM, FAR, FSD, MSN, TUL).


We can speculate all we went. Failure is a strong term. As for why it hasn't come back, it may be because of other higher priorities, who knows, but that doesn't automatically mean the route was a failure considering the circumstances of why it was cut to begin with.

The route lasted for 4 years before it was cut during the pilot shortage crisis.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:39 pm

tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:

You seem to have access to data that others don’t. I find it interesting that VX did so “well” with only 8 first class seats and a handful of main cabin select seats - from which I saw were almost always available to JFK in my anaecdotal experience out of LAX. Based on your numerous posts it seems as if Alaska isn’t making money on any routes. At least that’s what narrative seems to be developing from your posts.

Also, can you confirm more cuts to come? Or is this just an opinion of your own? It isn’t unprecedented for an airline to continue to compete on tough routes or keep “vanity” routes. I’m not saying you’re wrong. But curious how you came up with “more cuts” when the company has alluded to growth in the linked article.

Actually, some data is publicly accessible through the the Bureau of Transportation here: https://www.transtats.bts.gov/tables.as ... 1&DB_Name=

I find it pretty difficult to filter through the data though, TBH--and that may not be where tphuang gets the data from anyhow...


Yes, I have a script that goes through that data along with T-100 data to get avg and LF. I've been posting numbers for that for a while now.

What I noticed in the latest quarter that we have data for is that on routes like JFK/EWR/BOS-SFO/LAX, AS/VX had a huge drop in fares YoY in Q2. Which is weird because the fare difference between VX and the competitors were quite stable for several quarters. And that suddenly increased in Q2 for no other reason than being operated by AS. There was no change in equipments or personnel operating them. Maybe AS revenue management was giving away too many award tickets on the FC or making upgrades too easy/cheap. I don't know what the answer is. And I have no idea if that will continue to Q3/4. It seemed to me that VX revenue management actually did pretty well in revenue generation on these premium routes with just 8 seats, substandard premium product and small presence on both end. They are not the losers that AS supporters make them out to be.

I don't work for AS so I don't know what their plans are. I'm just looking at the data and their BOS-LAX numbers are significantly worse than many of routes they've already cut like SFO-FLL and MCO-LAX. Given the number of cuts they've already made at LAX, I would be surprised if BOS sticks around for another year.

airzona11 wrote:

This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


See my comments above. VX actually did better than expected in yields on those routes, which AS was not able to replicate.


Thanks for the info. But it would be helpful if you said, “I think more cuts will come” rather than making statements such as “there will be more cuts in 2019.” Also, as far as your upgrade comments go - Alaska has no special policy for transcon elite upgrades. They’re the same as any other route. I don’t believe VX upgraded their elites - but I’m not sure about that. Alaska upgrades start as soon as five days prior depending on availability.

It is my opinion these routes will be propped up for quite some time. But that’s my opinion. They should keep these routes as long as they can.

Plus, VX obviously had problem routes too because their overall financials weren’t that great. So perhaps VX did well on transcon but they had other issues. Now it may be the inverse. Alaska continues to do well on their legacy routes but has a transcon problem. Data is data, but when only certain data sets are shown it can help either narrative.
 
tphuang
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:52 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Actually, some data is publicly accessible through the the Bureau of Transportation here: https://www.transtats.bts.gov/tables.as ... 1&DB_Name=

I find it pretty difficult to filter through the data though, TBH--and that may not be where tphuang gets the data from anyhow...


Yes, I have a script that goes through that data along with T-100 data to get avg and LF. I've been posting numbers for that for a while now.

What I noticed in the latest quarter that we have data for is that on routes like JFK/EWR/BOS-SFO/LAX, AS/VX had a huge drop in fares YoY in Q2. Which is weird because the fare difference between VX and the competitors were quite stable for several quarters. And that suddenly increased in Q2 for no other reason than being operated by AS. There was no change in equipments or personnel operating them. Maybe AS revenue management was giving away too many award tickets on the FC or making upgrades too easy/cheap. I don't know what the answer is. And I have no idea if that will continue to Q3/4. It seemed to me that VX revenue management actually did pretty well in revenue generation on these premium routes with just 8 seats, substandard premium product and small presence on both end. They are not the losers that AS supporters make them out to be.

I don't work for AS so I don't know what their plans are. I'm just looking at the data and their BOS-LAX numbers are significantly worse than many of routes they've already cut like SFO-FLL and MCO-LAX. Given the number of cuts they've already made at LAX, I would be surprised if BOS sticks around for another year.

airzona11 wrote:

This I am confused on. By premier transcon, do you mean LAX/SFO-NYC/BOS as routes or in the premium cabin? VX offered a small cabin up front, and while it was trendy, it was inferior to DL/AA/UA/B6, what was the VX advantage here that AS isn't capturing?


See my comments above. VX actually did better than expected in yields on those routes, which AS was not able to replicate.


Thanks for the info. But it would be helpful if you said, “I think more cuts will come” rather than making statements such as “there will be more cuts in 2019.” Also, as far as your upgrade comments go - Alaska has no special policy for transcon elite upgrades. They’re the same as any other route. I don’t believe VX upgraded their elites - but I’m not sure about that. Alaska upgrades start as soon as five days prior depending on availability.

It is my opinion these routes will be propped up for quite some time. But that’s my opinion. They should keep these routes as long as they can.

Plus, VX obviously had problem routes too because their overall financials weren’t that great. So perhaps VX did well on transcon but they had other issues. Now it may be the inverse. Alaska continues to do well on their legacy routes but has a transcon problem. Data is data, but when only certain data sets are shown it can help either narrative.


Right, I am not saying as doesn’t know what it’s doing but rather on certain markets that vx was able to do well on, it was underperforming those benchmarks. And it has nothing to do with even the product or fleet itself but I think more of a revenue management model. As certainly has the fleet flexibility to do the short haul stuff far better than vx did. In my opinion, there will be more cuts at lax at least, especially on the transcon front.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Maybe VX was perceived to be doing 'better' in the past on transcons because you didn't have today's pissing match out of LAX and SFO between AA, UA, B6 and DL. I believe AS is operating close to the same schedule to JFK and BOS as VX did but everyone else is adding more flights.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:07 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Good things are coming to SAN I believe...keep the faith, SAN!!

That's nice of you to suggest S. We'll just wait and see what happens at the focus cities in 2019...

bb
 
airzona11
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:49 pm

seabosdca wrote:
I don't think we can assume that AS's decisions about the legacy VX network are connected to their long-term growth strategy at California airports. VX had a cost problem. Once AS is able to get the entire airline operating smoothly and on a cost base more typical of legacy AS, it will be able to compete more easily with UA from SFO and with "everybody and their dog" out of LAX.

I wouldn't be surprised to see AS do two things: 1) further expand frequency on core West Coast routes and 2) connect SFO and LAX to some of the higher-yielding existing AS outstations away from the West Coast. My view is that to succeed with that they will have to continue to offer two things, both of which could be threatened by an overzealous focus on costs: 1) a more attractive FF program than the legacies and 2) better and more personalized service. It will be a delicate balance.

airzona11 wrote:
What premium was VX capturing though? Trendy might have been their marketing, but they had small premium cabins that were inferior to the lie flat of competition. Is their data that shows AS killed the VX premium (was there a VX premium?).


People assuming VX had some sort of magical hold over premium flyers are focused too much on white leather and garish mood lighting. The truth is that AS attracts premium flyers too, and does it in ways that have nothing to do with hard product.


I totally agree. All this talk of AS weakness and VX strength is anecdotal.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:11 am

So... another new Admirals Club in SFO once they get squeezed out of T2?
 
Jshank83
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:51 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Whereas new E175 routes like SEA-COS and PDX-STL failed, like SJC-SNA and SAN-STL remain.


I still don’t 100% get the switch from STL-PDX to STL-SAN. PDX had strong loads (better than SAN gets) at higher prices (which I assume means better yields since they are fairly close to the same distance) . Also, was weird they cut PDX in May and not after summer (when loads are high 80s to 90%s). The only thing I can think is they wanted to split the stations further apart for connections since PDX and SEA are so close. But I guess that’s why I don’t run an airline.
 
SonaSounds
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:42 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
So... another new Admirals Club in SFO once they get squeezed out of T2?


I would expect them to be building a new one in T1 as that is where AA has opted to move. I would be surprised if AS gets all the gates in T2. I would expect once the T2-T3 connector is completed in 2021 UA will move into some of the T2 gates. Unless of course AS starts adding flights from SFO like crazy......(doubtful)
 
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FA9295
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:54 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Whereas new E175 routes like SEA-COS and PDX-STL failed, like SJC-SNA and SAN-STL remain.

The only thing I can think is they wanted to split the stations further apart for connections since PDX and SEA are so close. But I guess that’s why I don’t run an airline.

I think this is part of the reason for that. Also, more E175s are based at SAN and more 737s are based at PDX, which makes for easier/more efficient aircraft utilization. If there was enough demand for a 737 on PDX-STL, they would have very likely kept it. With that being said though, Southwest's PDX-STL route is on a 737, and it seems to be doing just fine.
No, "FA" in my username does not stand for "flight attendant"...
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
AAtakeMeAway wrote:
So... another new Admirals Club in SFO once they get squeezed out of T2?


I would expect them to be building a new one in T1 as that is where AA has opted to move. I would be surprised if AS gets all the gates in T2. I would expect once the T2-T3 connector is completed in 2021 UA will move into some of the T2 gates. Unless of course AS starts adding flights from SFO like crazy......(doubtful)


I wonder is AS would then open an Alaska Lounge in the T2 Admirals Club space. It would certainly make it the nicest Alaska Lounge in the system (based on the ones I've been in at LAX, SEA-D and SEA-N,
 
flySFO
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Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:10 pm

AirFiero wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Last I've heard WN requested 5 gates and AS requested 6.
Flyguy


Well almost half of A is now a combination of WN and AS. Those gates can't come fast enough, no matter who gets them.


And that is now 6 new gates, in addition to the 2 new ones opened earlier, correct?


I thought the new Terminal B extension was gates 31-34. The 2 new ones they recently added were 29 and 30. Unless I missed another update in there.

Regardless, the new gates are desperately needed. I think AS and WN are using about 3-4 gates each in Terminal A now, so they are both all over the place.
 
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SANFan
Posts: 4746
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:24 pm

FA9295 wrote:
I think this is part of the reason for that. Also, more E175s are based at SAN and more 737s are based at PDX, which makes for easier/more efficient aircraft utilization. If there was enough demand for a 737 on PDX-STL, they would have very likely kept it. With that being said though, Southwest's PDX-STL route is on a 737, and it seems to be doing just fine.

I want to mention a couple of things. SAN ops are currently very evenly split between mainline and EMJs. Early next year, it looks like the scales will tilt a bit toward mainline service due to a/c upgrades on several routes. (Subject to any additional new routes that may start.) However, I'm sure PDX has more of both types of equipment than SAN.

Also, of possible interest to this STL discussion, WN has been offering double-daily SAN-STL since January 2018. I have no idea how AS is doing with their (1x daily EMJ) SAN-STL flight but WN is certainly applying pressure on this route (as well as most others on which both cx compete.) AS has offered their service in the market for a year now -- coincidentally, since the time WN went daily-double! -- and who knows, maybe SAN-STL will also see an upgrade in equip soon.

bb
 
gmcc
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:38 pm

flySFO wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:

Well almost half of A is now a combination of WN and AS. Those gates can't come fast enough, no matter who gets them.


And that is now 6 new gates, in addition to the 2 new ones opened earlier, correct?


I thought the new Terminal B extension was gates 31-34. The 2 new ones they recently added were 29 and 30. Unless I missed another update in there.

Regardless, the new gates are desperately needed. I think AS and WN are using about 3-4 gates each in Terminal A now, so they are both all over the place.


29 and 30 have already been added at the end. Makes for a tight squeeze when you have AS flight leaving out of 28, 29, 30 at nearly the same time. I remember seeing that there would be 4 new gates plus a ground boarding gate. If that is true there is really only one airline, QX , that needs a ground boarding gate. I am also curious as to where the new gates will attach to terminal B. It would be too tight to just tack them on to the end of 30. It would be a single file line into and out for 6 gate. Hopefully the extension will open up some more space.

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
SonaSounds wrote:
AAtakeMeAway wrote:
So... another new Admirals Club in SFO once they get squeezed out of T2?


I would expect them to be building a new one in T1 as that is where AA has opted to move. I would be surprised if AS gets all the gates in T2. I would expect once the T2-T3 connector is completed in 2021 UA will move into some of the T2 gates. Unless of course AS starts adding flights from SFO like crazy......(doubtful)


I wonder is AS would then open an Alaska Lounge in the T2 Admirals Club space. It would certainly make it the nicest Alaska Lounge in the system (based on the ones I've been in at LAX, SEA-D and SEA-N,


SFO appears to want to convert the Admirals Club space into retail. Most chatter about the AS lounge seems to center around a new space where the old control tower was.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 862
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:24 pm

gmcc wrote:
flySFO wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

And that is now 6 new gates, in addition to the 2 new ones opened earlier, correct?


I thought the new Terminal B extension was gates 31-34. The 2 new ones they recently added were 29 and 30. Unless I missed another update in there.

Regardless, the new gates are desperately needed. I think AS and WN are using about 3-4 gates each in Terminal A now, so they are both all over the place.


29 and 30 have already been added at the end. Makes for a tight squeeze when you have AS flight leaving out of 28, 29, 30 at nearly the same time. I remember seeing that there would be 4 new gates plus a ground boarding gate. If that is true there is really only one airline, QX , that needs a ground boarding gate. I am also curious as to where the new gates will attach to terminal B. It would be too tight to just tack them on to the end of 30. It would be a single file line into and out for 6 gate. Hopefully the extension will open up some more space.


I saw an artist rendering that went with an article. I seem to remember that there will be a new access hallway parallel to a existing extension. It think the article also said there wouldn't be any direct access between the two, you'd have to go all the way back to the main part of terminal B.
 
gmcc
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:56 pm

That makes sense. There is some room behind the 29 30 gate for access. I hope it is a little wider than the 29 30 access as that is tight for the two gates.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3392
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:38 am

AirFiero wrote:
Another angle to consider...the so called “1%” tend to have their own private aircraft. The next lower demographic will charter or have jet sharing. Then you get to the F-class demo.

To make the top 1% in the US you have to have an income of $301K. That is a lot, but not the kind of money you are describing. That is not adjusted for cost of living so making that money in the valley is probably more like making 90K in Des Moines.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 862
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:41 am

Rdh3e wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Another angle to consider...the so called “1%” tend to have their own private aircraft. The next lower demographic will charter or have jet sharing. Then you get to the F-class demo.

To make the top 1% in the US you have to have an income of $301K. That is a lot, but not the kind of money you are describing. That is not adjusted for cost of living so making that money in the valley is probably more like making 90K in Des Moines.


1. Have you seen the number of private jets and private jet traffic at the two FBOs at SJC?

2. The former XV customers obviously do not rank within the 1%, thus flying the airlines.
 
adamanbermuda
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:19 am

Re: Alaska maps out airport expansion at West Coast bases

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:04 am

I would think AS should focus SFO and LAX on O&D routes and try to funnel connections through smaller airports with less competition for slots and gates. I was hoping the merger meant AS could consolidate routes both airlines previously flew and try to find new markets from SFO/LAX. Giving AA competition on CLT to either SFO or LAX comes to mind (certainly from everyone here in Charlotte) and I don't think those would be too popular to connect through on AS, given AA's extensive network.

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