Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
flee wrote:With so many A330 Ceos about to come on stream for retirement as pax aircraft, there will be ample supply of good and cheap frames for conversion to freighters. I doubt a new build A330FNeo will sell at all, seeing how the current version has sold poorly.
hongkongflyer wrote:flee wrote:With so many A330 Ceos about to come on stream for retirement as pax aircraft, there will be ample supply of good and cheap frames for conversion to freighters. I doubt a new build A330FNeo will sell at all, seeing how the current version has sold poorly.
current 330 has a big problem of not having a leveled cabin on the ground.
bigjku wrote:I have to ask, for about the tenth time, who in the blue hell is buying an A330neo tanker? Who is going to pay the development cost who hasn’t already bought the existing tanker? Tankers last for 30 or 50 years.
Assemble a list of nations to create a critical mass to pay the cost for it and tell me how many frames they need. I would guess you can’t do it.
bigjku wrote:I have to ask, for about the tenth time, who in the blue hell is buying an A330neo tanker? Who is going to pay the development cost who hasn’t already bought the existing tanker? Tankers last for 30 or 50 years.
Assemble a list of nations to create a critical mass to pay the cost for it and tell me how many frames they need. I would guess you can’t do it.
itchief wrote:The problem with your prediction is that the A330neo will not fit into the same space that the DC-10/MD-11/767F will fit into. The 767 has a wing span of 47.5m. That is a big reason that the A330F(60m) is a slow seller and a A330neo(64m) will have an even tougher time with the fit. Airport ramp space is not cheap and it is not easy to add.
itchief wrote:The problem with your prediction is that the A330neo will not fit into the same space that the DC-10/MD-11/767F will fit into. The 767 has a wing span of 47.5m. That is a big reason that the A330F(60m) is a slow seller and a A330neo(64m) will have an even tougher time with the fit. Airport ramp space is not cheap and it is not easy to add.
kitplane01 wrote:itchief wrote:The problem with your prediction is that the A330neo will not fit into the same space that the DC-10/MD-11/767F will fit into. The 767 has a wing span of 47.5m. That is a big reason that the A330F(60m) is a slow seller and a A330neo(64m) will have an even tougher time with the fit. Airport ramp space is not cheap and it is not easy to add.
I think that's true, but they cannot keep flying 767s forever. It's older tech, with higher fuel costs. How long do you think they will keep buying new 767s? I totally agree the existing 767s will be flying for a long time, but some cargo operators have enough utilization they will get better economics from a new airframe, and the 767 is fuel ineffecient.
kitplane01 wrote:t depends on the cost. If it's really as simple as moving the tanker kit to the new frame ...
I can think of several nations that might want 3 ..5. Saudi Arabia. India. Singapore. Brazil.
But I totally get your valid point.
kitplane01 wrote:The 747-8F is quite large, and the 777F is both large and yesterday's technology
kitplane01 wrote:The 747-8F is quite large, and the 777F is both large and yesterday's technology.
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:kitplane01 wrote:The 747-8F is quite large, and the 777F is both large and yesterday's technology.
Funny, you must have missed TK buying yet more 777F jets and ignore the A330F.
Considering the A330F has arguably been the worst return on Airbus" widebody investment and the overall A330neo family struggling for sales, I doubt an A330neoF would solve issues.
There's no escaping the fact that Airbus is totally dead in the widebody freighter game. Completely dead. Even an A359F wouldn't change the dynamics since Boeing has plans for a 777X freighter too.
flee wrote:hongkongflyer wrote:flee wrote:With so many A330 Ceos about to come on stream for retirement as pax aircraft, there will be ample supply of good and cheap frames for conversion to freighters. I doubt a new build A330FNeo will sell at all, seeing how the current version has sold poorly.
current 330 has a big problem of not having a leveled cabin on the ground.
Not a big problem as the cargo deck will be equipped with motorised equipment to move the cargo loads into place.
kitplane01 wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:kitplane01 wrote:The 747-8F is quite large, and the 777F is both large and yesterday's technology.
Funny, you must have missed TK buying yet more 777F jets and ignore the A330F.
Considering the A330F has arguably been the worst return on Airbus" widebody investment and the overall A330neo family struggling for sales, I doubt an A330neoF would solve issues.
There's no escaping the fact that Airbus is totally dead in the widebody freighter game. Completely dead. Even an A359F wouldn't change the dynamics since Boeing has plans for a 777X freighter too.
I believe that the A330neo has lower cost per ton*kilometer than a 777F, thanks to the new engine. I totally agree the 777F has been a success, but the technology is old and the 777XF is nowehere to be seen (yet).
kitplane01 wrote:
I believe that the A330neo has lower cost per ton*kilometer than a 777F, thanks to the new engine. I totally agree the 777F has been a success, but the technology is old and the 777XF is nowehere to be seen (yet).
jupiter2 wrote:flee wrote:hongkongflyer wrote:current 330 has a big problem of not having a leveled cabin on the ground.
Not a big problem as the cargo deck will be equipped with motorised equipment to move the cargo loads into place.
If it wasn't a big problem, why did Airbus go to the trouble of making the 330F with a higher standing nose to level it out ?
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
I believe that the A330neo has lower cost per ton*kilometer than a 777F, thanks to the new engine. I totally agree the 777F has been a success, but the technology is old and the 777XF is nowehere to be seen (yet).
Wrong again.
The 777F is not even 9 years old. How is that old? 747 freighters and 767 freighters in service today are older and you miss out the engine PIPs that GE has done for GE90-110B as well.
I doubt fuel burn is an issue for operators since the 777F will always carry significantly more higher capacity/yield freight far farther than any mythical A330neoF. So that's that out the window.
As for 777X-Freighter, that you say it's 'nowhere to be seen' underscores just how little/nothing you know about it.
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
I believe that the A330neo has lower cost per ton*kilometer than a 777F, thanks to the new engine. I totally agree the 777F has been a success, but the technology is old and the 777XF is nowehere to be seen (yet).
Wrong again.
The 777F is not even 9 years old. How is that old? 747 freighters and 767 freighters in service today are older and you miss out the engine PIPs that GE has done for GE90-110B as well.
I doubt fuel burn is an issue for operators since the 777F will always carry significantly more higher capacity/yield freight far farther than any mythical A330neoF. So that's that out the window.
As for 777X-Freighter, that you say it's 'nowhere to be seen' underscores just how little/nothing you know about it.
mjoelnir wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
I believe that the A330neo has lower cost per ton*kilometer than a 777F, thanks to the new engine. I totally agree the 777F has been a success, but the technology is old and the 777XF is nowehere to be seen (yet).
Wrong again.
The 777F is not even 9 years old. How is that old? 747 freighters and 767 freighters in service today are older and you miss out the engine PIPs that GE has done for GE90-110B as well.
I doubt fuel burn is an issue for operators since the 777F will always carry significantly more higher capacity/yield freight far farther than any mythical A330neoF. So that's that out the window.
As for 777X-Freighter, that you say it's 'nowhere to be seen' underscores just how little/nothing you know about it.
It is your opinion that fuel burn does not matter, not a fact.
I would assume that a 777XF is rather mythical as well. Probably not being able to carry as much freight as the 777F because of a higher OEW at the same MTOW. And the 777XF would cost real money, you would not get them at end of the line prices like the 777F
The only advantage, that a 777XF could have over the 777F could be fuel burn and you declared that that does not matter.
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:mjoelnir wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Wrong again.
The 777F is not even 9 years old. How is that old? 747 freighters and 767 freighters in service today are older and you miss out the engine PIPs that GE has done for GE90-110B as well.
I doubt fuel burn is an issue for operators since the 777F will always carry significantly more higher capacity/yield freight far farther than any mythical A330neoF. So that's that out the window.
As for 777X-Freighter, that you say it's 'nowhere to be seen' underscores just how little/nothing you know about it.
It is your opinion that fuel burn does not matter, not a fact.
I would assume that a 777XF is rather mythical as well. Probably not being able to carry as much freight as the 777F because of a higher OEW at the same MTOW. And the 777XF would cost real money, you would not get them at end of the line prices like the 777F
The only advantage, that a 777XF could have over the 777F could be fuel burn and you declared that that does not matter.
I never said it doesn't matter, I said it's not an issue (as in a primary/overriding one) - otherwise Airbus would have surely launched an A330neoF already.
But they haven't because fuel burn alone is not enough to launch such a jet because of its inherent inferiority Re payload/range capability versus the bigger 777F.
As for 777-XF, I cant speak too much about it publicly suffice to say you are wrong about what it will carry vs 777F. Thanks.
Spacepope wrote:The 787 on the other hand was designed from the beginning with a freighter conversion program in mind.
VSMUT wrote:Spacepope wrote:The 787 on the other hand was designed from the beginning with a freighter conversion program in mind.
Do you have a source for that?
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:mjoelnir wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Wrong again.
The 777F is not even 9 years old. How is that old? 747 freighters and 767 freighters in service today are older and you miss out the engine PIPs that GE has done for GE90-110B as well.
I doubt fuel burn is an issue for operators since the 777F will always carry significantly more higher capacity/yield freight far farther than any mythical A330neoF. So that's that out the window.
As for 777X-Freighter, that you say it's 'nowhere to be seen' underscores just how little/nothing you know about it.
It is your opinion that fuel burn does not matter, not a fact.
I would assume that a 777XF is rather mythical as well. Probably not being able to carry as much freight as the 777F because of a higher OEW at the same MTOW. And the 777XF would cost real money, you would not get them at end of the line prices like the 777F
The only advantage, that a 777XF could have over the 777F could be fuel burn and you declared that that does not matter.
I never said it doesn't matter, I said it's not an issue (as in a primary/overriding one) - otherwise Airbus would have surely launched an A330neoF already.
But they haven't because fuel burn alone is not enough to launch such a jet because of its inherent inferiority Re payload/range capability versus the bigger 777F.
As for 777-XF, I cant speak too much about it publicly suffice to say you are wrong about what it will carry vs 777F. Thanks.
flee wrote:hongkongflyer wrote:flee wrote:With so many A330 Ceos about to come on stream for retirement as pax aircraft, there will be ample supply of good and cheap frames for conversion to freighters. I doubt a new build A330FNeo will sell at all, seeing how the current version has sold poorly.
current 330 has a big problem of not having a leveled cabin on the ground.
Not a big problem as the cargo deck will be equipped with motorised equipment to move the cargo loads into place.
airtran737 wrote:flee wrote:hongkongflyer wrote:current 330 has a big problem of not having a leveled cabin on the ground.
Not a big problem as the cargo deck will be equipped with motorised equipment to move the cargo loads into place.
Clearly you have never tried to push a 10,000 lb pallet that is improperly built and won’t move. Your lack of operational awareness couldn’t be more apparent.
mjoelnir wrote:
We do not know if Airbus will offer a A330Fneo or keep offering the A330Fceo.
Spacepope wrote:itchief wrote:The problem with your prediction is that the A330neo will not fit into the same space that the DC-10/MD-11/767F will fit into. The 767 has a wing span of 47.5m. That is a big reason that the A330F(60m) is a slow seller and a A330neo(64m) will have an even tougher time with the fit. Airport ramp space is not cheap and it is not easy to add.
And here is the correct answer. The wingspan of the A330 is a huge issue for freight operators. That’s why no new A330Fs have been ordered in years, and the conversion program is operating at a mere trickle, especially when compared to the output of the 767 P2F program.
The 787 on the other hand was designed from the beginning with a freighter conversion program in mind. I’d expect that to happen well before any other Airbus widebody conversion program is launched. Fleet leaders are still under 30000 hours though, so that might be a few more years.
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:mjoelnir wrote:
We do not know if Airbus will offer a A330Fneo or keep offering the A330Fceo.
The OP seems to think there will be - thus the premise of this thread....
keesje wrote:Spacepope wrote:itchief wrote:The problem with your prediction is that the A330neo will not fit into the same space that the DC-10/MD-11/767F will fit into. The 767 has a wing span of 47.5m. That is a big reason that the A330F(60m) is a slow seller and a A330neo(64m) will have an even tougher time with the fit. Airport ramp space is not cheap and it is not easy to add.
And here is the correct answer. The wingspan of the A330 is a huge issue for freight operators. That’s why no new A330Fs have been ordered in years, and the conversion program is operating at a mere trickle, especially when compared to the output of the 767 P2F program.
The 787 on the other hand was designed from the beginning with a freighter conversion program in mind. I’d expect that to happen well before any other Airbus widebody conversion program is launched. Fleet leaders are still under 30000 hours though, so that might be a few more years.
Would a 787 freighter be exempted from the huge wingspan issue for freight operators?
mjoelnir wrote:keesje wrote:Spacepope wrote:And here is the correct answer. The wingspan of the A330 is a huge issue for freight operators. That’s why no new A330Fs have been ordered in years, and the conversion program is operating at a mere trickle, especially when compared to the output of the 767 P2F program.
The 787 on the other hand was designed from the beginning with a freighter conversion program in mind. I’d expect that to happen well before any other Airbus widebody conversion program is launched. Fleet leaders are still under 30000 hours though, so that might be a few more years.
Would a 787 freighter be exempted from the huge wingspan issue for freight operators?
Yes of course, it is a Boeing.
kitplane01 wrote:
I can think of several nations that might want [...] : Brazil.
mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
mjoelnir wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:mjoelnir wrote:
We do not know if Airbus will offer a A330Fneo or keep offering the A330Fceo.
The OP seems to think there will be - thus the premise of this thread....
Yes we are speculating, Airbus has not made any declaration about a A330neo freighter and/or ending the A330F.
It would have been more interesting if you would have answered my speculation about a possible A330neo, instead of boringly trying to correct one of my sentences just stating a fact.
Spacepope wrote:mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
Polot wrote:Spacepope wrote:mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
Yes, targeting the 777F with a A338F is pointless. Boeing would just release the 777XF and Airbus is back to square one. The A330neoF just needs reliable TATL range (ie more than BOS-Ireland) with A decent payload to have a little more success.
Spacepope wrote:mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
mjoelnir wrote:
So what? Does freight come in neat 103t batches only? What if you have to move 60t or 130t? One can drive the nonsense just so far. Everything about the capabilities regarding a A330Fneo that would exclude that bird from being a freighter, applies in the same way to a possible 787F. And how do A300 and 767 function if they can not take 103t.
The vast majority of the freighters in the world are frames smaller than the A330.
mjoelnir wrote:Spacepope wrote:mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
So what? Does freight come in neat 103t batches only? What if you have to move 60t or 130t? One can drive the nonsense just so far. Everything about the capabilities regarding a A330Fneo that would exclude that bird from being a freighter, applies in the same way to a possible 787F. And how do A300 and 767 function if they can not take 103t.
The vast majority of the freighters in the world are frames smaller than the A330.
Freighters are not sold in the same numbers as passenger models, excluding the 747-8 where the passenger model is a flop. The 777F has been delivered 147 times with about 50 on order. All talk about a P2F has been talk only, nothing happening. The 777F has it's first delivered in 2009. Deliveries have been about 10 a year the last years. The good sales the last years IMO are because of very low end of line prices at Boeing.
Yes there have been only 38 A330F sold and only 4 are now on order, but the P2F conversions have started with 2 A330-200P2F and 2 A330-300P2F in operation and a few on the way. DHL ordered 8 A330-300P2F with 10 options. 2 are delivered. So there seems to be a market for a freighter of this size, even if the newly build ones seems to be to expensive.
The two first A330-300P2F are operated by Air Hongkong for DHL
DHL seems to like the A330F, they took also the 5 from Etihad. Those are operated by EAT Leibzig.
The two A330-200P2F are in use at Egypt Air Cargo.
EFW is planing to convert about 10 A330 a year, as they have been in P2F for quite a while, about 200 A300/310 converted, I assume they have talked to their customers.
Polot wrote:mjoelnir wrote:Spacepope wrote:
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
So what? Does freight come in neat 103t batches only? What if you have to move 60t or 130t? One can drive the nonsense just so far. Everything about the capabilities regarding a A330Fneo that would exclude that bird from being a freighter, applies in the same way to a possible 787F. And how do A300 and 767 function if they can not take 103t.
The vast majority of the freighters in the world are frames smaller than the A330.
Freighters are not sold in the same numbers as passenger models, excluding the 747-8 where the passenger model is a flop. The 777F has been delivered 147 times with about 50 on order. All talk about a P2F has been talk only, nothing happening. The 777F has it's first delivered in 2009. Deliveries have been about 10 a year the last years. The good sales the last years IMO are because of very low end of line prices at Boeing.
Yes there have been only 38 A330F sold and only 4 are now on order, but the P2F conversions have started with 2 A330-200P2F and 2 A330-300P2F in operation and a few on the way. DHL ordered 8 A330-300P2F with 10 options. 2 are delivered. So there seems to be a market for a freighter of this size, even if the newly build ones seems to be to expensive.
The two first A330-300P2F are operated by Air Hongkong for DHL
DHL seems to like the A330F, they took also the 5 from Etihad. Those are operated by EAT Leibzig.
The two A330-200P2F are in use at Egypt Air Cargo.
EFW is planing to convert about 10 A330 a year, as they have been in P2F for quite a while, about 200 A300/310 converted, I assume they have talked to their customers.
Long haul freight is fundamentally different than long haul passenger because of the whole boxes don’t mind stops thing. The cargo airlines prefer to consolidate as much freight (using short haul/regional freighters) into as few long haul routes as possible, and try to maximize the amount of freight they are using on that (with as large of aircraft as possible). Remember unlike passenger traffic where air travel is the best way to move people long distances, transporting cargo by air rather than ground/sea is always less efficient, so cargo airlines do as much as possible to make it as efficient as possible which means consolidate consolidate consolidate. Having less dense long haul routes only works if there is an appreciable time advantage versus just routing through the regional cargo hub and a time sensitive need (versus just transporting by ground/sea).
The A330F will never be a direct 777F competitor, Airbus needs to do a A350F for that. What a new build A330F needs is a clear niche where operators can say wow, this is clearly better in this role that ABC can’t do but XYZ is overkill, as currently it doesn’t really have one (mostly as a result of the reasoning behind the development of the A330F in the first place). The current A330F doesn’t have enough payload/range to separate it from the 763F (which can do like 90% of what the A330F can while being cheaper and taking up less room). That doesn’t mean it needs to match the 777F range, but it needs enough to be more than a regional freighter.
mjoelnir wrote:Polot wrote:mjoelnir wrote:
So what? Does freight come in neat 103t batches only? What if you have to move 60t or 130t? One can drive the nonsense just so far. Everything about the capabilities regarding a A330Fneo that would exclude that bird from being a freighter, applies in the same way to a possible 787F. And how do A300 and 767 function if they can not take 103t.
The vast majority of the freighters in the world are frames smaller than the A330.
Freighters are not sold in the same numbers as passenger models, excluding the 747-8 where the passenger model is a flop. The 777F has been delivered 147 times with about 50 on order. All talk about a P2F has been talk only, nothing happening. The 777F has it's first delivered in 2009. Deliveries have been about 10 a year the last years. The good sales the last years IMO are because of very low end of line prices at Boeing.
Yes there have been only 38 A330F sold and only 4 are now on order, but the P2F conversions have started with 2 A330-200P2F and 2 A330-300P2F in operation and a few on the way. DHL ordered 8 A330-300P2F with 10 options. 2 are delivered. So there seems to be a market for a freighter of this size, even if the newly build ones seems to be to expensive.
The two first A330-300P2F are operated by Air Hongkong for DHL
DHL seems to like the A330F, they took also the 5 from Etihad. Those are operated by EAT Leibzig.
The two A330-200P2F are in use at Egypt Air Cargo.
EFW is planing to convert about 10 A330 a year, as they have been in P2F for quite a while, about 200 A300/310 converted, I assume they have talked to their customers.
Long haul freight is fundamentally different than long haul passenger because of the whole boxes don’t mind stops thing. The cargo airlines prefer to consolidate as much freight (using short haul/regional freighters) into as few long haul routes as possible, and try to maximize the amount of freight they are using on that (with as large of aircraft as possible). Remember unlike passenger traffic where air travel is the best way to move people long distances, transporting cargo by air rather than ground/sea is always less efficient, so cargo airlines do as much as possible to make it as efficient as possible which means consolidate consolidate consolidate. Having less dense long haul routes only works if there is an appreciable time advantage versus just routing through the regional cargo hub and a time sensitive need (versus just transporting by ground/sea).
The A330F will never be a direct 777F competitor, Airbus needs to do a A350F for that. What a new build A330F needs is a clear niche where operators can say wow, this is clearly better in this role that ABC can’t do but XYZ is overkill, as currently it doesn’t really have one (mostly as a result of the reasoning behind the development of the A330F in the first place). The current A330F doesn’t have enough payload/range to separate it from the 763F (which can do like 90% of what the A330F can while being cheaper and taking up less room). That doesn’t mean it needs to match the 777F range, but it needs enough to be more than a regional freighter.
Let us see you bringing the same arguments regarding a 787 freighter.
The MD-11F, used as a long range freighter, has the same range as the A330F, both at max payload.
The 767F does 3225nm with 54t. At max payload the 767F has 80% of the range and 78% of the payload of the A330F. So you should reevaluate your 90% or look at your math.
The A330P2F conversion will be running the next years and we will see quite a few of them. Having more A330 freighters in the market will also help sales of the new build ones.
mjoelnir wrote:Polot wrote:mjoelnir wrote:
So what? Does freight come in neat 103t batches only? What if you have to move 60t or 130t? One can drive the nonsense just so far. Everything about the capabilities regarding a A330Fneo that would exclude that bird from being a freighter, applies in the same way to a possible 787F. And how do A300 and 767 function if they can not take 103t.
The vast majority of the freighters in the world are frames smaller than the A330.
Freighters are not sold in the same numbers as passenger models, excluding the 747-8 where the passenger model is a flop. The 777F has been delivered 147 times with about 50 on order. All talk about a P2F has been talk only, nothing happening. The 777F has it's first delivered in 2009. Deliveries have been about 10 a year the last years. The good sales the last years IMO are because of very low end of line prices at Boeing.
Yes there have been only 38 A330F sold and only 4 are now on order, but the P2F conversions have started with 2 A330-200P2F and 2 A330-300P2F in operation and a few on the way. DHL ordered 8 A330-300P2F with 10 options. 2 are delivered. So there seems to be a market for a freighter of this size, even if the newly build ones seems to be to expensive.
The two first A330-300P2F are operated by Air Hongkong for DHL
DHL seems to like the A330F, they took also the 5 from Etihad. Those are operated by EAT Leibzig.
The two A330-200P2F are in use at Egypt Air Cargo.
EFW is planing to convert about 10 A330 a year, as they have been in P2F for quite a while, about 200 A300/310 converted, I assume they have talked to their customers.
Long haul freight is fundamentally different than long haul passenger because of the whole boxes don’t mind stops thing. The cargo airlines prefer to consolidate as much freight (using short haul/regional freighters) into as few long haul routes as possible, and try to maximize the amount of freight they are using on that (with as large of aircraft as possible). Remember unlike passenger traffic where air travel is the best way to move people long distances, transporting cargo by air rather than ground/sea is always less efficient, so cargo airlines do as much as possible to make it as efficient as possible which means consolidate consolidate consolidate. Having less dense long haul routes only works if there is an appreciable time advantage versus just routing through the regional cargo hub and a time sensitive need (versus just transporting by ground/sea).
The A330F will never be a direct 777F competitor, Airbus needs to do a A350F for that. What a new build A330F needs is a clear niche where operators can say wow, this is clearly better in this role that ABC can’t do but XYZ is overkill, as currently it doesn’t really have one (mostly as a result of the reasoning behind the development of the A330F in the first place). The current A330F doesn’t have enough payload/range to separate it from the 763F (which can do like 90% of what the A330F can while being cheaper and taking up less room). That doesn’t mean it needs to match the 777F range, but it needs enough to be more than a regional freighter.
Let us see you bringing the same arguments regarding a 787 freighter.
The MD-11F, used as a long range freighter, has the same range as the A330F, both at max payload.
The 767F does 3225nm with 54t. At max payload the 767F has 80% of the range and 78% of the payload of the A330F. So you should reevaluate your 90% or look at your math.
The A330P2F conversion will be running the next years and we will see quite a few of them. Having more A330 freighters in the market will also help sales of the new build ones.
lightsaber wrote:Polot wrote:Spacepope wrote:
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
Yes, targeting the 777F with a A338F is pointless. Boeing would just release the 777XF and Airbus is back to square one. The A330neoF just needs reliable TATL range (ie more than BOS-Ireland) with A decent payload to have a little more success.
Concur. If you look at the routes needing this type of freighter, it needs 4,300nm+ of range with full payload. That means enough MTOW to activate the center tank (with full payload).
If Airbus does that, I expect 200 to sell. If they do not achieve at least that range, I only expect sales of about 50.
Lightsaber
Polot wrote:The current A330F doesn’t have enough payload/range to separate it from the 763F (which can do like 90% of what the A330F can while being cheaper and taking up less room). That doesn’t mean it needs to match the 777F range, but it needs enough to be more than a regional freighter.
mjoelnir wrote:...1) The MD-11F, used as a long range freighter, has the same range as the A330F, both at max payload.
2) The 767F does 3225nm with 54t. At max payload the 767F has 80% of the range and 78% of the payload of the A330F....
3) The A330P2F conversion will be running the next years and we will see quite a few of them. Having more A330 freighters in the market will also help sales of the new build ones.
mjoelnir wrote:... or a A330-900F with
OEW 125t, Payload 75t and range 4000nm for more volume.
All numbers are guesses based on the OEW differences of the A330-200 and A330-300 to the A330F and the estimated OEW of the A330-900 and A330-800.
Spacepope wrote:mjoelnir wrote:OEW 120t instead of 109T.
Payload both 69t
Fuel 62t instead of 55t and that at 10% lower fuel burn would mean about 5000nm instead of 4000nm range with the same payload. That is the range offered by the 777F, 4970nm, at full payload.
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
EBJ68 wrote:Given that the A330's wing span is an issue, so far as freight carriers go, why wouldn't the freighter model of the 787 also be a problem for freight operators, given the difference between their wing spans is a mere 1 foot? As has been said here on a.net many times over, the airline and airfreight markets fluctuate, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad. What we expect won't happen can, and what we don't expect does. Might be best to wait and see. I suspect the future might, in fact, hold promise for the Boeing 787 freighter and a possible A330neo freighter too. The possibilities are what make being an aviation fan so fascinating.
smartplane wrote:Spacepope wrote:
And here's the real meat. The 777f is hauling 103t to that 5000nm range, rather than 69t. The ton-mile efficiency argument falls down a bit when you need to run 1.5 A330neoF to lift the sameamount of payload the same distance.
But increasingly the same arguments apply to freight as passengers - frequency and flexibility. The same justifications for multiple NB's versus a WB, and multiple WB's versus A380.
If you want to generate premium freight margins, frequency, frequency, frequency.
If you are busy consolidating 103t, you are a margin bottom feeder. Better to operate a couple of NB freighters, and drop some customers.
EBJ68 wrote:Given that the A330's wing span is an issue, so far as freight carriers go, why wouldn't the freighter model of the 787 also be a problem for freight operators, given the difference between their wing spans is a mere 1 foot? As has been said here on a.net many times over, the airline and airfreight markets fluctuate, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad. What we expect won't happen can, and what we don't expect does. Might be best to wait and see. I suspect the future might, in fact, hold promise for the Boeing 787 freighter and a possible A330neo freighter too. The possibilities are what make being an aviation fan so fascinating.