Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
DobboDobbo wrote:Perhaps a good day for NQY and LHR, but a bad day for the UK taxpayer.
As far as I can see, the catalyst for switching the route from LGW to LHR is the agreement of Cornwall Council and the DfT to each pay a subsidy of £1.7million (£3.4m total) to support the route as a Public Service Obligation.
The Independent believes this works out at £5 per seat per flight (ie £10 for a round trip).
This further underlines the inaccuracies in LHR’s case for a third runway. Specifically, the “regional connectivity argument” for the following reasons:
1 - finding the slots to service these routes is clearly not an issue. Despite LHR claiming to be “full” four daily slot pairs have magically appeared from a hidden pool. Ringfencing slots in a runway three world makes no difference to this position.
2 - That it requires a PSO confirms that this route is commercially unviable. It is only possible by the DfT (central government) and Cornwall Council (local government) spending taxpayers money. This may, or may not, keep the route going - in any event, it is a cost for taxpayers to bear and this position will not change in a LHR runway 3 world.
3 - this demonstrates that flights to the likes of Liverpool, Doncaster (and anywhere else in the UK that is not commercially viable into LHR) to LHR could have slots allocated now, if the local and national government is prepared to subsidise these routes. Unless their position changes and they are suffenly prepared TOMS unsexiest these routes in a LHR runway 3 world, they will never happen.
4 - there is no indication that LHR have done anything to support this route financially (eg lower charges) so the financial subsidy from the taxpayer is likely to go straight into LHR’s coffers. There is no indication LHR will change this position in a runway 3 world (likely because they will be seeking government support for runway 4).
Ultimately - this news does nothing to dispel the View that the UK government continues to act and support LHR as though it remains a UK government owned state enterprise - to the detriment of LGW and STN in particular.
SeanM1997 wrote:Its been suggested that the slots have come from the remedy Virgin Little Red Manchester route - but unconfirmed. .
SeanM1997 wrote:
Also...I would argue this is better use of taxpayers money than airports in US paying millions for a BA service to Heathrow which is only 4x weekly
ZuluTime wrote:Dobbo, you're back on the anti-LHR / UK Government agenda again. The availability of slots for this route at LHR has nothing to do with the UK Government, but with Flybe's access to Heathrow slots from the BA/bmi takeover under competition remedies made to the EU. If you read the remedy document, you'll find the clause which permits them to seek more slots. What Flybe then do with them is entirely their choice assuming it's within the terms of the remedies, which is that they have to be flown on a European short-haul route. They just happen to have chosen Newquay.
There is no wider policy statement or implication here - it's an opportunity which was open to Flybe and they have taken it.
It cannot impact on the Flybe Scottish routes as they haven't yet flown those for the six consecutive seasons required to "unlock" the remedy slots from the specific routes for which they were allocated, EDI and ABZ. From March 2020, if Flybe want to move those slots to other European short-haul routes, they can. I understand it is very likely that they will do so in one of the two cases mentioned.
skipness1E wrote:Of course it can!
It depends on the pricing structure. IF the operator takes the view that an A380 and a DHD taking up a runway slot should be charged the same way then the domestic route is slammed to a competitive disadvantage. LGW forced out flybe when the pricing changed a few years back.
What you ringfence is the cost of access and usage, APD makes domestic flying borderline anyway so HMG can take a view here. You can’t pretend the UK’s premier airport, government approved, designed and built, plugged into tube, rail and motorway can behave exactly like a wholly commercial enterprise. That’s nonsense, it’s as commercial as the Chunnel and nuclear power, in that it’s a major part of UK PLC.
It’s not so much a direct subsidy as HMG setting yhe rules to give operators a fair chance to make money.
BTW if you are so anti subsidy, I imagine you don’t fly Boeing or Airbus as a matter of principle?
All you’re doing is advocating a number of different ways the UK taxpayer can offer financial support to commercially unviable services that will end up boosting the profit margins of a company that will end up sending those profits out of the country in the form of dividends.
DobboDobbo wrote:If LHR was a UK state owned asset I’d be with you.
However, it isn’t. It’s owned by overseas sovereign wealth and pension funds. It therefore doesn’t behave like a UK state owned enterprise, it makes decisions in order to generate as much profit as possible to return value to shareholders (which is fair enough).
All you’re doing is advocating a number of different ways the UK taxpayer can offer financial support to commercially unviable services that will end up boosting the profit margins of a company that will end up sending those profits out of the country in the form of dividends.
F737NG wrote:DobboDobbo wrote:If LHR was a UK state owned asset I’d be with you.
However, it isn’t. It’s owned by overseas sovereign wealth and pension funds. It therefore doesn’t behave like a UK state owned enterprise, it makes decisions in order to generate as much profit as possible to return value to shareholders (which is fair enough).
All you’re doing is advocating a number of different ways the UK taxpayer can offer financial support to commercially unviable services that will end up boosting the profit margins of a company that will end up sending those profits out of the country in the form of dividends.
Your argument is that a taxpayer subsidy should not be paid to a private or foreign enterprise. Fair enough, but it misses a key economic point.
By offering a taxpayer subsidy, the UK government has decided that the NQY - LHR route generates more in tax receipts from increased economic activity by passengers on the route than the total cost of the subsidy. Any cost-benefit analysis undertaken has shown that this specific market requires fiscal support to stimulate the higher levels of activity.
PSOs occur on hundreds of routes across European countries and are not banned as a form of state aid by the European Commission - what should that tell you?
Saabdriver wrote:All you’re doing is advocating a number of different ways the UK taxpayer can offer financial support to commercially unviable services that will end up boosting the profit margins of a company that will end up sending those profits out of the country in the form of dividends.
I can't see how the change will boost the profit margins of LHR (assuming that you're not suggesting Flybe is a company that sends profits it doesn't make out of the country in the form of non-existent dividends).
In this particular case, BA have had to give up four daily slots currently flown by A320-family aircraft which generate a landing fee and 143-220 passenger charges for LHR. Those slots, via a competition remedy arrangement accepted by the EU, are now to be flown by a Q400 which will pay the same landing fee as the A320 but generate only 78 passenger charges at LHR.
From Heathrow's perspective, it sees a cut in income. There is no compensatory mechanism for LHR to recover that loss from the EU or UK Government.
How does this possibly increase LHR's profit margins, funded by the UK Government?
Although I would say it's not sensible, that's an EU competition remedy in action and I can't see remotely how the change of BA A320s flying to ABZ, GLA and HEL for Flybe Q400s flying to NQY benefits the operator of the airport - it can't do. All the airport can do is what they have done, put a brave face on it and say that it's part of their strategy to become more centric to UK connectivity. That's a PR gloss. There can be no other financial outcome for LHR than a loss - so your argument simply doesn't hold water.
bennett123 wrote:My query is about separation.
Given that the DHC8 is smaller and slower, does the separation increase.
Saabdriver wrote:I think you'll find that there are some frequency cuts on BA routes for Summer 2019 and the overall number of flights will reduce by four a day to release the remedy slots for the Q400 Newquay operation. Flights are being bumped, if you wish to term it that way.
Andy33 wrote:Which competition remedy ruling do you think the slots have been allocated under and taken from BA?
DobboDobbo wrote:If it’s happening (Q400 replacing A320) I’m sure you’ll supply the evidence - absent which your position is not credible.
Saabdriver wrote:DobboDobbo wrote:If it’s happening (Q400 replacing A320) I’m sure you’ll supply the evidence - absent which your position is not credible.
The slot coordinator's pre-season report will show a reduction in the number of BA slots held and a corresponding increase in BE slots held. It will be publicly available and so that will provide evidence to anyone who wants to see it.
There is some turnover in the BA operation at LHR for S19 - e.g. HEL reduces from 2 to 1 roundtrips per day and the HEL nightstop slots are re-used for the new INV nightstop, the evening MUC rotation is being switched to leisure routes in July and August, and so on.
That is usual. The unusual element is frequency cuts coming up on some routes to release slots for the competition remedies. Those do not yet look to be in the public arena and it's not for me to change that if so. For Summer 2019, BA will have fewer short-haul operations at LHR than in Summer 2018 as a result.
More broadly, it is sometimes possible to obtain new slots at LHR. The greatest constraint is the 480,000 annual air transport movement limit which was introduced as part of the planning consent for Terminal 5. In practical terms, this translates to 9,636 slots per week being allocated but the declared runway capacity in terms of slots per hour adds up to more than that number - around 9,800. Actual runway slots may exist but if there are no movements spare within the 480,000 then you can't use them.
For example, slots are available for an arrival in LHR at 1905 on a Sunday and a departure at 0800 on Mondays for the whole of Summer 2019. There is a Friday arrival at 1445 and a departure at 1735 available (not great, but they are LHR slots). If you wanted to add a new service using those slots, you could - provided the movement quota is available. The scope for this is very limited but it does exist.
If the movement limit shifts as part of the planning process for the third runway, there will be some LHR slots created by runway occupancy and capacity improvements in 2021 - basically getting a couple more movements an hour onto/off the runway.
Cunard wrote:Those cuts that you have mentioned were announced quite a while back by British Airways and long before NQY to LHR was even announced by Flybe.