Delta orders 10 A330-900 neo's, defers 10 A350-900's

gatibosgru · Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:34 am

Will the NEOs have PS? If so, it may not be a huge capacity increase over the 763s/764s when you count in the reduction of regular economy for more Delta Ones and Premium Selects (and maybe more Comfort+?)

NateGreat · Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:51 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Will the NEOs have PS? If not it may not be a huge capacity increase over the 763s/764s when you count in the reduction of regular economy for more Delta Ones and Premium Selects (and maybe more Comfort+?)

From what I have heard, they will have both Delta One Suites and Premium Select.

sabby · Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 am

It is possible that a further deferment of the 10 A359s is a part of this A339 deal so Delta can wait till the 77E frames are ready to be replaced. This will also give some earlier slots to Airbus so they won't be unhappy either along with more A339 sales.

JerseyFlyer · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:02 am

sabby wrote:
It is possible that a further deferment of the 10 A359s is a part of this A339 deal so Delta can wait till the 77E frames are ready to be replaced. This will also give some earlier slots to Airbus so they won't be unhappy either along with more A339 sales.

That or no impact on the 359 deliveries is most likely. If 359s were cancelled, Airbus would have announced it concurrently with the UFO order.

TTailedTiger · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:14 am

Perhaps Airbus can stretch the legs of the A350-1000 and Delta might take a few of them. At least they are finally getting their fleet rationalized.

In about a decade it should be down to A350, A330ceo/neo, A321ceo/neo, and A220. Whether they keep the 739 around is a wild card. If they continue to increase ownership in GOL, Aeromexico, and KLM I could see them being split up among those carriers in favor of more 321's at DL.

sciing · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:19 am

I ask again why should Delta order as UFO? Is Delta even allowed to hide an order by SEC rules?

NateGreat · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Perhaps Airbus can stretch the legs of the A350-1000 and Delta might take a few of them. At least they are finally getting their fleet rationalized.

In about a decade it should be down to A350, A330ceo/neo, A321ceo/neo, and A220. Whether they keep the 739 around is a wild card. If they continue to increase ownership in GOL, Aeromexico, and KLM I could see them being split up among those carriers in favor of more 321's at DL.

I could see the 717, 737-700/800, 757-200 (possibly 757-300 as well), and 767-300ER out of the fleet 10 years from now. I just don’t know about the 767-400ER and 777-200ER/LR. I definitely cannot see the 737-900ER gone 10 years from now. I mean, the oldest airframe was delivered in Fall 2013 (5 years ago), and there are still a few dozen yet to be delivered (the final delivery scheduled for 2019). Saying that Delta will get rid of well over 100 perfectly-good Boeing 737-900ERs just for the sake of having an all-Airbus fleet sounds ridiculous, if you ask me. That would be the equivalent of American or United saying “Let’s just get rid of all these Airbus A319, A320, and A321 aircraft because we want an all-Boeing fleet.” I get that some of their A319 and A320 aircraft are older. But, American for example, has plenty of rather new A319s and A321s. Heck, a handful of their A321s have lie-flat seats up front, as these planes are used exclusively on JFK-LAX/SFO flights. For American to retire all their young A319s and A321s just for the sake of having all-Boeing fleet is pointless. The same could could be said for Delta wanting to retire all their young 737-900ERs just for the sake of having an all-Airbus fleet.

TTailedTiger · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:12 am

NateGreat wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Perhaps Airbus can stretch the legs of the A350-1000 and Delta might take a few of them. At least they are finally getting their fleet rationalized.

In about a decade it should be down to A350, A330ceo/neo, A321ceo/neo, and A220. Whether they keep the 739 around is a wild card. If they continue to increase ownership in GOL, Aeromexico, and KLM I could see them being split up among those carriers in favor of more 321's at DL.

I could see the 717, 737-700/800, 757-200 (possibly 757-300 as well), and 767-300ER out of the fleet 10 years from now. I just don’t know about the 767-400ER and 777-200ER/LR. I definitely cannot see the 737-900ER gone 10 years from now. I mean, the oldest airframe was delivered in Fall 2013 (5 years ago), and there are still a few dozen yet to be delivered (the final delivery scheduled for 2019). Saying that Delta will get rid of well over 100 perfectly-good Boeing 737-900ERs just for the sake of having an all-Airbus fleet sounds ridiculous, if you ask me. That would be the equivalent of American or United saying “Let’s just get rid of all these Airbus A319, A320, and A321 aircraft because we want an all-Boeing fleet.” I get that some of their A319 and A320 aircraft are older. But, American for example, has plenty of rather new A319s and A321s. Heck, a handful of their A321s have lie-flat seats up front, as these planes are used exclusively on JFK-LAX/SFO flights. For American to retire all their young A319s and A321s just for the sake of having all-Boeing fleet is pointless. The same could could be said for Delta wanting to retire all their young 737-900ERs just for the sake of having an all-Airbus fleet.

I can see your point as well. I guess it just comes down to if there are any major cost savings from increased economies of scale. JetBlue is retiring their rather young and large E190 fleet in favor of the A220. AA is about 50/50 split for Airbus and Boeing so no chance of them eliminating either manufacturer. I could see UA potentially going all Boeing with their massive 737 fleet and hundreds more on order. I think it would hinge on Boeing paying the cost of the lost A350 deposits. But if they want an exclusive mega airline they might do it.

PlanesNTrains · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

B6 is ditching the E190 fleet for cost and operational reasons, not commonality reasons. With 100 or more 739ER's, a perfectly good airframe, DL would have zero reason to ditch them. They would have to acquire new frames to replace them and hope to find someone to take the ER's in the process.

For an airline the size of DL, it's really a non-issue having the 737 in their fleet.

AAIRLINERS · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:44 am

I think Delta is smart for ordering these 330NEOs. More than the 350 which admittedly is in a different category, the 330 is the perfect plane for their East Coast Hub to Europe market and will replace the 763 rather nicely even though a bit larger. I also think AA made a huge mistake not doing the same. With the 330 market somewhat down the prices should be reasonable and I would imagine airbus would love the order from another US3. Maybe 30 to replace the current 330s and another 30 or so to replace the 767. It would be a fleet at least as large as the 777 or the 787. Certainly not to late to go this direction if the price is right...we will see.

scotron11 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:07 am

DL is a major customer of both OEMs, surprised Boeing didn't lowball the price on the 787 like they supposedly did with HA, if that was the reason

PlanesNTrains · Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:14 am

scotron11 wrote:
DL is a major customer of both OEMs, surprised Boeing didn't lowball the price on the 787 like they supposedly did with HA, if that was the reason

I seriously doubt that the 787 was in the running for what was essentially a top-up order that may very well be a swap from the A350.

TTailedTiger · Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:20 am

scotron11 wrote:
DL is a major customer of both OEMs, surprised Boeing didn't lowball the price on the 787 like they supposedly did with HA, if that was the reason

I don't think Boeing is trying very hard. After losing 4/5 orders in the past decade, Richard Anderson making false claims about the 777 resale value (Anderson based it off of an unairworthy frame with no engines) and his lies about wanting the 787-10 I think Boeing is seeking greener pastures. If Delta really wants a Boeing in the future they won't be getting a sweetheart deal.

gatibosgru · Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:13 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
DL is a major customer of both OEMs, surprised Boeing didn't lowball the price on the 787 like they supposedly did with HA, if that was the reason

I don't think Boeing is trying very hard. After losing 4/5 orders in the past decade, Richard Anderson making false claims about the 777 resale value (Anderson based it off of an unairworthy frame with no engines) and his lies about wanting the 787-10 I think Boeing is seeking greener pastures. If Delta really wants a Boeing in the future they won't be getting a sweetheart deal.

That's comical, there's no way Boeing won't fight for any DL order.

fun2fly · Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:36 am

Revelation wrote:
coronado wrote:
That will be an impressive A330 fleet in a few years, 35 neos plus 39 in the current fleet for a total of 74!

I remember the days when an order for ten widebodies would get a lot more attention on a.net.

It makes me feel , sigh...

Congrats to DL and Airbus on this nice order.

I think about that often myself. When USAir, NW, etc. all existing creating fragmentation, China a lesser factor and no real ME3 10+ years ago, 10 widebodies was a big order. Now, yawn...top up. Same for a few 789 UA orders...back page of the paper below the fold. Amazing when you look forward and they say pax will double in 20-30 years.

scbriml · Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:57 am

gatibosgru wrote:
That's comical, there's no way Boeing won't fight for any DL order.

Absolutely!

:checkmark:

LaunchDetected · Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
scotron11 wrote:
DL is a major customer of both OEMs, surprised Boeing didn't lowball the price on the 787 like they supposedly did with HA, if that was the reason

I don't think Boeing is trying very hard. After losing 4/5 orders in the past decade, Richard Anderson making false claims about the 777 resale value (Anderson based it off of an unairworthy frame with no engines) and his lies about wanting the 787-10 I think Boeing is seeking greener pastures. If Delta really wants a Boeing in the future they won't be getting a sweetheart deal.

You think Boeing doesn't try very hard to sell its products to the second largest airline of the planet ?

mjoelnir · Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:15 pm

We should still think about, that neither Airbus nor Delta has confirmed this ten frame order being from Delta. I think it is a good possibility those ten frames are for example a Chinese order.

Anyway, Delta has at least 25 A330-900 on order and I expect those to replace the oldest 767 at Delta. Did Delta take also options with the first batch?

scbriml · Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:22 pm

sciing wrote:
I ask again why should Delta order as UFO? Is Delta even allowed to hide an order by SEC rules?

Good question and one that crossed my mind. The order was booked on 30th October so would DL have to declare it before their end of year financials?

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I seriously doubt that the 787 was in the running for what was essentially a top-up order that may very well be a swap from the A350.

Do we know if DL issued an RFP even?

Alias1024 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:33 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
Why take less A350s? The A330-900 clearly does not have the range to fly many of Delta's pacific long haul routes except for the ones from Seattle.

Because the A350 is more expensive and would be overkill for the routes DL intends to fly with the 339. DL doesn’t need the range of the A350 to fly Atlanta to Europe or Seattle to Japan/Korea.

bfitzflyer · Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:24 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Revelation wrote:
coronado wrote:
That will be an impressive A330 fleet in a few years, 35 neos plus 39 in the current fleet for a total of 74!

I remember the days when an order for ten widebodies would get a lot more attention on a.net.

It makes me feel , sigh...

Congrats to DL and Airbus on this nice order.

I think about that often myself. When USAir, NW, etc. all existing creating fragmentation, China a lesser factor and no real ME3 10+ years ago, 10 widebodies was a big order. Now, yawn...top up. Same for a few 789 UA orders...back page of the paper below the fold. Amazing when you look forward and they say pax will double in 20-30 years.

I think DL has 42 A330 CEO's. 11 of the 200 series and 31 of the 300 series.

airbazar · Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm

seabosdca wrote:
2) The 333 and 339 both have significantly lower fuel burn per seat than the 763, but they don't have lower absolute fuel burn or trip cost. If they did, we would see the 330 fleet continue to be used at maximum capacity during the winter, with quite a few 767s parked. Instead we see some slack in both the 330 and 763 fleets. Even the 787, which has a fuel burn advantage over either generation of 330, can't quite match 763 trip cost.

One factor is the 763's are paid for and any new A333/9 wouldn't. Once those old 763's start requiring heavy checks the equation will change significantly, hence this top-of order IMO, if it's really for DL. Nevertheless I still expect them to place a top-off order at some point. An airline like DL should not have any problems selling 50 extra seats on each 763 route for the next 20+ years, be it Winter, Summer, or any day in between.

karan69 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:11 pm

airbazar wrote:
One factor is the 763's are paid for and any new A333/9 wouldn't. Once those old 763's start requiring heavy checks the equation will change significantly, hence this top-of order IMO, if it's really for DL. Nevertheless I still expect them to place a top-off order at some point. An airline like DL should not have any problems selling 50 extra seats on each 763 route for the next 20+ years, be it Winter, Summer, or any day in between.

In addition to what you said, given the Delta one suites and Premium economy would perhaps take up more space, so the net addition will be lesser than 50 seats, which as you say correctly shouldn’t be too hard to fill up

Regards /

Karan

coronado · Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:30 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I remember the days when an order for ten widebodies would get a lot more attention on a.net.

It makes me feel , sigh...

Congrats to DL and Airbus on this nice order.

I think about that often myself. When USAir, NW, etc. all existing creating fragmentation, China a lesser factor and no real ME3 10+ years ago, 10 widebodies was a big order. Now, yawn...top up. Same for a few 789 UA orders...back page of the paper below the fold. Amazing when you look forward and they say pax will double in 20-30 years.

I think DL has 42 A330 CEO's. 11 of the 200 series and 31 of the 300 series.

You are correct, when I initially consulted he 9/30/2018 10Q report filed with the SEC I made the mistake of just looking at column 1. Delta does in fact currently own 11 A332, plus they own 28 A333 plus they have 3 A333 on operating leases for the total of 42!. There are 25 A339 on order and if these 10 'unidentified' additional A339 are being added to Delta's order book, that would bring the A330 fleet to 77.

panamair · Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:44 pm

karan69 wrote:
In addition to what you said, given the Delta one suites and Premium economy would perhaps take up more space, so the net addition will be lesser than 50 seats, which as you say correctly shouldn’t be too hard to fill up

Regards /

Karan

It appears that DL's A339 will be the first to have all four types of seating - Delta One, Premium Select, Comfort Plus, and Main Cabin economy, which will reduce the total number of seats for sale to about 280 (compared to 293 currently for the A333s). According to wikipedia, the Delta A339 will be configured as 29J, 28W, 40Y+ and 184Y. If that configuration holds, we're talking about 224 coach seats (Comfort Plus and regular coach) which is not significantly more than the 200 Y/Y+ seats today for sale on the high-density 767-300ER ("76Z") fleet; the 28 Premium Select seats are an entirely new market which they haven't really been in today (before the A350) so there is no proper comparison with today's 763ER...

As someone already mentioned, Delta has generally been upgauging, starting on the domestic side (A321 and 739s replacing the MD88/90s, A220 replacing 76-seaters, though not all one-for-one) so it's only a matter of time before it hits the international side. The 764ERs which have a lot more life in them than the 763ERs can likely replace the 763ER markets that really can't support more seats on the A330s; also remember that the 764ERs will have Premium Select (and probably Comfort Plus) added to them so that could reduce the number of seats from today's 245 as well.

ElroyJetson · Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:52 pm

The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

I agree with the poster who stated UA is better positioned fleet wise to best cover both the TATL and TPAC markets.

scotron11 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:15 pm

[quote="ElroyJetson"]The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

I agree with the poster who stated UA is better positioned fleet wise to best cover both the TATL and TPAC markets.[/quote
You make me laugh! Just because UA are using the 787 and DL are using the A350/339 somehow UA is the end all! Maybe there is a reason DL makes more money than UA??

PlanesNTrains · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:18 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

Who's to say that they can't get a better deal now? Or didn't, so went with more A330neos? If they don't need the capability of a 787 at it's outer reaches, then the price, CASM, and perceived comfort of the A330neo may be just what the doctor (and Delta) ordered.

MrHMSH · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:26 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

I agree with the poster who stated UA is better positioned fleet wise to best cover both the TATL and TPAC markets.

They may have done... however they were not available at the price or time that DL needed/wanted and thus did not get ordered. Just because you believe the 787 is the best for every conceivable situation it does not mean this is actually the case for every airline. We don't know if this order is for DL, but if it is then DL has taken all the considerations into account and come up with the best deal. I believe they make the most profit, right? Their fleet planners must be doing something right...

SelseyBill · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:27 pm

727200 wrote:
Since the plane is such a slow seller, ,probably got a real good deal on them.

....just about the most predictable post you could possibly imagine.

Delta gets a good deal on everything, thats why they're Delta......

peanuts · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:38 pm

SelseyBill wrote:
727200 wrote:
Since the plane is such a slow seller, ,probably got a real good deal on them.

....just about the most predictable post you could possibly imagine.

Delta gets a good deal on everything, thats why they're Delta......

Recurring a.net themes. DL only buys airplanes if they get a good deal.
Duh.
Any other airline on this planet just gets hosed by Airbus and Boeing. Right?

DL hates Boeing. They are right sizing to an all Airbus fleet because DL's size alone makes no sense to have two different plane makers in their fleet...
Oh. Ok.

DL is regretting canceling NW's 787 order. To this day they must be crying about it...
Surely.

scbriml · Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:45 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

I agree with the poster who stated UA is better positioned fleet wise to best cover both the TATL and TPAC markets.

DL clearly, and profitably, disagrees with you.

Why don't you start your own thread about how bad a decision DL made ordering the A339/A359. Oh wait...

ElroyJetson · Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:24 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

I agree with the poster who stated UA is better positioned fleet wise to best cover both the TATL and TPAC markets.

They may have done... however they were not available at the price or time that DL needed/wanted and thus did not get ordered. Just because you believe the 787 is the best for every conceivable situation it does not mean this is actually the case for every airline. We don't know if this order is for DL, but if it is then DL has taken all the considerations into account and come up with the best deal. I believe they make the most profit, right? Their fleet planners must be doing something right...

Slow your roll there buddy. No
need to put words in my mouth that I did not speak.☺

There are many missions where more capacity or payload is needed than a 787 can provide. For example the 777x or A350.

However, there is no question the 787 has opened up many new routes. I think DL could benefit from this. My only point.

keesje · Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:38 pm

The 787 has indeed opened up many routes. Just like the 767, 757, A332 and A343.

kimimm19 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:04 pm

Even though a plane might be better suited for a handful of missions, doesn't mean that it outweighs the benefits of just going with one type instead of two or more.

flee · Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:08 pm

[list=][/list]Airlines' fleet choices can only be understood by those who made the decisions. Keyboard warriors can only guess why. So I would say all those who express their opinion is correct (in some ways) and wrong (in some ways). But it is interesting to see the fanboys argue on an order that is not even confirmed to be made by DL!

FSDan · Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:09 pm

DL currently has 56 767-300ERs in the fleet, and only has 25 (now 35?) 339s on order. I'm guessing they're still hoping the 797 will be a viable option for them to replace the remainder of the 763s, along with many of the 752s and possibly the 753s. There are current 763/764 routes that could probably easily be upgauged to a 339 (mainland-HNL, HNL-Japan, SEA-Asia, hub routes to LHR/CDG/AMS), while the more niche markets like PDX-LHR, IND-CDG, ATL-ZRH, etc. could stay on smaller 763s until the 797s enter the fleet.

NeBaNi · Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 pm

trex8 wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
If Delta really wants to go for a smaller widebody in the next few years, I think they should order the 797.

Define next few years, 797 not likely to EIS before 2025 at earliest (if you believe Boeing and maybe 2 years later if you believe other aviation pundits). You need something in any number sooner than that you need to look at whats being produced today, or a derivative of whats presently available..

I think it's also worth noting that even if the 797 has EIS in 2025, how quickly will DL be able to build up a reasonable fleet? I'm sure if the 797 is a decent aircraft, there will be airlines lining up to take delivery of it, and DL might not be able to build up a fleet as quickly as it can. It might take 3-5 years to build up a sizeable fleet - that's 2027-2030. What if the EIS is 2027? Then you're looking at 2030-2032. Can the 767s soldier on till 2030-2032?

Again, this is also contingent on Delta being a launch customers and/or one of the early operators, which the following quote seems to suggest:

Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The 797 is a Boeings fan boy's dream, still an absolut paper aeroplane.

Then I guess DL's CEO is a fan boy too:

The No. 2 U.S. carrier wants to be one of the first to fly a potential new mid-sized jetliner from Boeing, said Delta Chief Executive Officer Ed Bastian.

That’s a vote of confidence from one of the most influential aircraft buyers as Boeing decides whether to build the plane, dubbed the 797 by analysts.

“You’re going to see us participate in Boeing’s middle-of-the-market campaign,” Bastian said. “I hope that we’re going to be a launch customer on that program as well.”

I bet Ed has some interesting paper that has lots of data on the 797.

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet

But AFAIK, DL hasn't been a launch operator for any recent programs. It has been/will be early(ish) operators of the A220 and the A330neo, but these are/were both programs that are/were not selling well. If the 797 sells as well as Boeing hopes, then can DL build up a fleet that quickly, even if it were a launch/early operator?

[Also, in before someone points out that launch customer =/= launch operator necessarily.]

PotatoPappas · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:03 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Is Delta planning some kind of expansion or are these to replace the 772ER?

I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.

The -300As (the few that are left) are domestic planes, they are being replaced by the 739s and A321s not new widebodies. But yeah the 763ERs will be leaving before DL replaces the 77Es.

Delta wouldn't be investing in cabins for the 77Es if they were going to get rid of em....

VSMUT · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:20 pm

PotatoPappas wrote:
Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I assume they will start with replacing their oldest wide bodies, PW engined 767-300 and 300ER and than start replacing old 767-300 with GE engines.

The -300As (the few that are left) are domestic planes, they are being replaced by the 739s and A321s not new widebodies. But yeah the 763ERs will be leaving before DL replaces the 77Es.

Delta wouldn't be investing in cabins for the 77Es if they were going to get rid of em....

Some of the Delta 747s only had 4 years in service after getting refurbished. The deferred A350s will be delivered by 2022-2023, so in roughly 4 years. Further, we are only talking 8 777-200ERs, a rather tiny subfleet for an airline like Delta. By then, those 8 777s will also be approaching 25 years of age.
Given the small size of the Delta 777 fleet, a retirement at the age of 20-25 years isn't so odd. Sure, the 767s are much older, but Delta has also had something like 120+ of those, with 80 still in service.

777Mech · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:24 pm

FWIW, DL is going to start refreshing some 763s to include the new PE. It's not clear if they'll include the new D1.

pabloeing · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:36 pm

¿How many new A333ceo have delivery DL?

BlueSky1976 · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:41 pm

scotron11 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
The A339 is fine as a TATL bird for DL.
However, I think they made a big mistake cancelling the 787 order.

The 788 and 789 would have been perfect out of SEA as an example, and could have opened up some new markets for them. MSP could have also benefited.

Cancellation of 787 was the right decision at the right time. Many people familiar with the matter already explained here the burden this order would have had on Delta. This is why 737-900s ended up in Delta fleet instead of the non-standard, overweight, out-of-specs 787s that were destined for Northwest.

Those new markets can also be opened up with A330-800 and A350-900 as well. Delta doesn't have any -800s on order, but given the right opportunity, they'd order them without hesitation.

FlyBitcoin · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:42 pm

I agree with the theory that the older 332's and 333's end up giving DL an enviable transcon widebody product. They will have no trouble filling those aircraft if they run at the right time of day. ATL-LAX, SEA, SFO and even LAS could handle the upgauge. I, for one would seek out the widebody and pay a little more to be up front. Those aircraft could even be used to boast all widebody service from JFK to LAX and really set DL apart as a more "premium" carrier domestically. But, by the time these planes all go domestic, we could very well be in another recession.

seabosdca · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:43 pm

I would not be shocked to see all Delta 772s, 77E and 77L alike, replaced by 359s by around 2025. As more and more airlines have 789s, 330neos, or even later-build 242 t 330ceos, the economic position of 772s of any sort will become more and more difficult. A refurbishment in 2019 with a current premium product could easily pencil out over 4-6 more years of service.

SteelChair · Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:58 pm

From a customer perspective, the 8,000 foot dry air cabin of the 1993 era A330 can't compete with the 6,000 foot humidified cabin of the 787. And didn't a lot of folks say that Boeing was gving screaming deals on the 787 now?

For these reasons, imho this is a transfer of the A350 deferred airplanes (10) and Delta will still order 25 or so 787-10s.

Finally, the 797 isn't even a factor imho. 2025? No way. The airline could be bankrupt again by then, and Boeing won't deliver in significant numbers by then anyway.

TTailedTiger · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:07 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
trex8 wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
If Delta really wants to go for a smaller widebody in the next few years, I think they should order the 797.

Define next few years, 797 not likely to EIS before 2025 at earliest (if you believe Boeing and maybe 2 years later if you believe other aviation pundits). You need something in any number sooner than that you need to look at whats being produced today, or a derivative of whats presently available..

I think it's also worth noting that even if the 797 has EIS in 2025, how quickly will DL be able to build up a reasonable fleet? I'm sure if the 797 is a decent aircraft, there will be airlines lining up to take delivery of it, and DL might not be able to build up a fleet as quickly as it can. It might take 3-5 years to build up a sizeable fleet - that's 2027-2030. What if the EIS is 2027? Then you're looking at 2030-2032. Can the 767s soldier on till 2030-2032?

Again, this is also contingent on Delta being a launch customers and/or one of the early operators, which the following quote seems to suggest:
Revelation wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The 797 is a Boeings fan boy's dream, still an absolut paper aeroplane.

Then I guess DL's CEO is a fan boy too:

The No. 2 U.S. carrier wants to be one of the first to fly a potential new mid-sized jetliner from Boeing, said Delta Chief Executive Officer Ed Bastian.

That’s a vote of confidence from one of the most influential aircraft buyers as Boeing decides whether to build the plane, dubbed the 797 by analysts.

“You’re going to see us participate in Boeing’s middle-of-the-market campaign,” Bastian said. “I hope that we’re going to be a launch customer on that program as well.”

I bet Ed has some interesting paper that has lots of data on the 797.

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet

But AFAIK, DL hasn't been a launch operator for any recent programs. It has been/will be early(ish) operators of the A220 and the A330neo, but these are/were both programs that are/were not selling well. If the 797 sells as well as Boeing hopes, then can DL build up a fleet that quickly, even if it were a launch/early operator?

[Also, in before someone points out that launch customer =/= launch operator necessarily.]

Yeah and Delta likes to buy aircraft at bargain basement prices. They won't get the 797 for a song and dance like the C Series and 339.

DL757NYC · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:08 pm

Can the NEO fly from the west coast from LAX/PDX/SEA to NRT/HND Delta must have gotten a sweet deal on the whole 350/330 order.

NateGreat · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:09 pm

SteelChair wrote:
From a customer perspective, the 8,000 foot dry air cabin of the 1993 era A330 can't compete with the 6,000 foot humidified cabin of the 787. And didn't a lot of folks say that Boeing was gving screaming deals on the 787 now?

For these reasons, imho this is a transfer of the A350 deferred airplanes (10) and Delta will still order 25 or so 787-10s.

Finally, the 797 isn't even a factor imho. 2025? No way. The airline could be bankrupt again by then, and Boeing won't deliver in significant numbers by then anyway.

The Boeing 797 (a PROPER 757/mid-market plane) is too far away from delivering airlines what they ACTUALLY NEED and WHEN THEY NEED IT? Hmm... I could make a really snarky comment about the 737 MAX program, but I don’t wanna spark any arguments.

WayexTDI · Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:13 pm

SteelChair wrote:
From a customer perspective, the 8,000 foot dry air cabin of the 1993 era A330 can't compete with the 6,000 foot humidified cabin of the 787. And didn't a lot of folks say that Boeing was gving screaming deals on the 787 now?

For these reasons, imho this is a transfer of the A350 deferred airplanes (10) and Delta will still order 25 or so 787-10s.

Finally, the 797 isn't even a factor imho. 2025? No way. The airline could be bankrupt again by then, and Boeing won't deliver in significant numbers by then anyway.

Only a very few customers are aware of that, and even less would be willing to pay more for that feature (if needed).

The vast majority of customers (including businesses) look at cost first and foremost; that's why the LCC/ULCC's do exist, and why the legacy airlines offer Basic Economy (or another variation of the name). Then comes schedule/availability; type of aircraft is rarely (if ever) a factor.

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