BubbaYugga
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:41 pm

Noshow wrote:
Could the Q400 be stretched in any way from a technical standpoint?


It's been considered, but there's too many tail strikes as it is.
A stretch would make the margin too small.
Any mitigating redesign just isn't worth it.
The current 90 seat sardine pitch is the best you're gonna get.
 
2175301
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:41 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
zkojq wrote:
This is my concern. Surely a small fish like Viking Air owning the Q400 program is more likely to hurt sales? Airlines would be less reluctant to place orders if the owner is at a higher risk of becoming insolvent?


IMO, it's not Viking's solvency that's the problem - it's the level of global after-sales support that they can provide (especially near-term). When you take on an established program like the Q400 - which, despite all its faults, is still a "full blown airliner" with all its complexity and legal requirements - your customers will expect that you will be there for them, and quickly, when things go south. If Viking can't swing this, current customers (accustomed to and planning for Bombardier's level of service) will quickly start making noise - which then may discourage future customers. Just look at Sukhoi with the Superjet; it has a good aircraft that needs to mature... but is constantly held back by a lack of A/B-quality support from the manufacturer.

EDIT: just to further clarify my point, I'm not arguing that Viking will fail by default - but that they now have a higher mountain to climb than even before. They need to be on the ball with regards to support from Day 1; the customers they now have to deal with - airlines in a very cut-throat financial environment, not small utility operators in the bush - will not tolerate them "taking it slow until they get to grips with the system". Every day/week/month that Viking would spend getting into the groove would cost airlines dearly.



oldannyboy wrote:
Likely the end of the programme in the medium term??
I mean, I don't see airlines trusting a small-ish company to provide adequate resources and support for the Q400. It's a complicated, high-performance, expensive aircraft. And even less so to provide a much needed NG version in order to remain somewhat competitive?.. I mean, I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but....

And the moment they dump the CRJ programme (don't know who to though?) that is a dead fish too me thinks...... Who would seriously want to invest money in that programme??



Gentlemen: Please look up what Viking did with the previous models that they first acquired rights to provide support, and then the type certificates. Viking has an excellent reputation for providing world wide support for the Dash 1-7. Yes the Dash 8 (Q series) is larger; but, they already have a lot of experience with international support for airlines that do routine flights (mainly the Twotter) and other aircraft.

They are also buying the entire existing Bombardier program - complete with all of the operational personnel and existing facilities and stockpiles (which they did not get with the Dash 1-7).

This is only a situation where they have to properly manage it - and they have the history of worldwide support expertise to build on. They are not some yokels who have no concept of the requirements.

Have a great day
 
SEA
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:56 pm

2175301 wrote:
[

This is only a situation where they have to properly manage it - and they have the history of worldwide support expertise to build on. They are not some yokels who have no concept of the requirements.

Have a great day


BBD's "support expertise" is severely lacking these days.
 
2175301
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:28 pm

SEA wrote:
2175301 wrote:
[

This is only a situation where they have to properly manage it - and they have the history of worldwide support expertise to build on. They are not some yokels who have no concept of the requirements.

Have a great day


BBD's "support expertise" is severely lacking these days.


If that is true... Then perhaps Viking will naturally improve that. They got to where they are at by focusing on top of the line support for owners of the Dash 1-7 aircraft; and for the upgraded Twin Otter - 400.

Have a great day,
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:15 pm

Breathe wrote:
I wonder if this is part of longer term strategy for Bombardier to leave the aerospace industry and focus on be a railway transportation business


I see Bombardier remaining in the business jet sector...but the regional jet business will be more challenging.
 
aamd11
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:08 pm

Be interested to see where the final assembly line ends up in the event they want to continue to build after 2021 when the Downsview plant is due to be vacated.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:40 pm

I predict that the Dash 8 production facility will be terminated or moved elsewhere unless the Ontario government coughs up some corporate welfare. Those thousands of jobs building marginally profitable (loss making?) aircraft are in jeopardy in my opinion. I suspect Viking wants the long term service contracts, not the production quagmire.
 
scudrunner
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
TheDBCooper wrote:
Perhaps they'll come full circle and rebrand as 'de Havilland Canada'?


That press release almost confirms it!



Was just going to say that is how I read that as well.

I think it would be great move to restore the DHC name.
"Fly The Airplane As Far Into The Crash As Possible" - Bob Hoover
 
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alberchico
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 am

Has Bombardier ever explored the possibility of completely updating the CRJ like Embrarer did with new wings, engines and avionics ? That could prolong the life of the aircraft by many years.
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admanager
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:36 am

In the 24 hours since the news of the Q400 sale first surfaced, BBD shares dropped over 24% on the Toronto exchange and it was revealed they would only be able to meet their 2018 free cash flow estimate by using $635 million in proceeds from the sale of the Downsview plant earlier this year. It was also reported BBD would explore strategic options for the money-losing regional jet program.
The sale of the Q400 business looks like it was done under desperate circumstances, much like the C_Series sale. I think Viking got a sweet deal.
 
Elshad
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:35 am

Will new build Dash 8 / Q400 be branded as De Havilland Canada?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:35 am

2175301 wrote:
TripleDelta wrote:
zkojq wrote:
This is my concern. Surely a small fish like Viking Air owning the Q400 program is more likely to hurt sales? Airlines would be less reluctant to place orders if the owner is at a higher risk of becoming insolvent?


IMO, it's not Viking's solvency that's the problem - it's the level of global after-sales support that they can provide (especially near-term). When you take on an established program like the Q400 - which, despite all its faults, is still a "full blown airliner" with all its complexity and legal requirements - your customers will expect that you will be there for them, and quickly, when things go south. If Viking can't swing this, current customers (accustomed to and planning for Bombardier's level of service) will quickly start making noise - which then may discourage future customers. Just look at Sukhoi with the Superjet; it has a good aircraft that needs to mature... but is constantly held back by a lack of A/B-quality support from the manufacturer.

EDIT: just to further clarify my point, I'm not arguing that Viking will fail by default - but that they now have a higher mountain to climb than even before. They need to be on the ball with regards to support from Day 1; the customers they now have to deal with - airlines in a very cut-throat financial environment, not small utility operators in the bush - will not tolerate them "taking it slow until they get to grips with the system". Every day/week/month that Viking would spend getting into the groove would cost airlines dearly.



oldannyboy wrote:
Likely the end of the programme in the medium term??
I mean, I don't see airlines trusting a small-ish company to provide adequate resources and support for the Q400. It's a complicated, high-performance, expensive aircraft. And even less so to provide a much needed NG version in order to remain somewhat competitive?.. I mean, I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but....

And the moment they dump the CRJ programme (don't know who to though?) that is a dead fish too me thinks...... Who would seriously want to invest money in that programme??



Gentlemen: Please look up what Viking did with the previous models that they first acquired rights to provide support, and then the type certificates. Viking has an excellent reputation for providing world wide support for the Dash 1-7. Yes the Dash 8 (Q series) is larger; but, they already have a lot of experience with international support for airlines that do routine flights (mainly the Twotter) and other aircraft.

They are also buying the entire existing Bombardier program - complete with all of the operational personnel and existing facilities and stockpiles (which they did not get with the Dash 1-7).

This is only a situation where they have to properly manage it - and they have the history of worldwide support expertise to build on. They are not some yokels who have no concept of the requirements.

Have a great day


Oh yeah, by all means, absolutely. And I agree with you. I have great respect for Viking, they have done wonders for the Twotter. As I said I am hoping to be proven 100% wrong. I am just not sure they are big enough and have sufficient expertise and financial backing - as well as a recognized visibility- so that large airlines (and not marginal regional operators) can really trust them for ongoing support AND subsequent development of the Q400 programme. Twotter is one thing: a fast, complicated, high-performance, pressurized regional airliner that competes with jets, is another thing altogether.... See where I came from: I am a true aficionado, and I do want to see the Q400 succeed, as well as Viking themselves.
 
ELBOB
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:52 am

Noshow wrote:
Could the Q400 be stretched in any way from a technical standpoint?


Not without reworking the undercarriage again; it's right at the limit of tailstrike risk, 6 degrees of pitch. Which is incidentally the same as the ATR72.

An interesting thought experiment would be a longitudinal splice to widen the fuselage but that has only been done a few times in aviation history and to my knowledge never with a pressurised airframe ( though the 707 was widened from the 367-80, I suppose ).
 
pdp
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:34 am

Elshad wrote:
Will new build Dash 8 / Q400 be branded as De Havilland Canada?


According to the BBC, Bombardier has also sold the De Havilland naming rights for $300m. One would assume that Viking had a also purchased these and will start calling their aircraft De Havillands again, rather than have the Viking Q400 with the DH8D designator.

Interestingly this leaves Bombardier with the Canadair and Learjet names and $1.2bn cash.

BBC News - Bombardier cuts 5,000 jobs globally
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46139488
 
c933103
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:00 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
I wonder if this is part of longer term strategy for Bombardier to leave the aerospace industry and focus on be a railway transportation business


I see Bombardier remaining in the business jet sector...but the regional jet business will be more challenging.

However CRJ wasn't that faraway from business jet...
 
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N328KF
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:22 pm

scudrunner wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
TheDBCooper wrote:
Perhaps they'll come full circle and rebrand as 'de Havilland Canada'?


That press release almost confirms it!



Was just going to say that is how I read that as well.

I think it would be great move to restore the DHC name.


pdp wrote:
Elshad wrote:
Will new build Dash 8 / Q400 be branded as De Havilland Canada?


According to the BBC, Bombardier has also sold the De Havilland naming rights for $300m. One would assume that Viking had a also purchased these and will start calling their aircraft De Havillands again, rather than have the Viking Q400 with the DH8D designator.

Interestingly this leaves Bombardier with the Canadair and Learjet names and $1.2bn cash.

BBC News - Bombardier cuts 5,000 jobs globally
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46139488


That "Viking Air" will be renamed to "De Havilland" was all but confirmed in this interview:

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/video/longv ... 0m~1534815
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Blimpie
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Breathe wrote:
I wonder if this is part of longer term strategy for Bombardier to leave the aerospace industry and focus on be a railway transportation business


I actually expect BBD to leave commercial AV entirely and expect to see CRJ being sold, and place some more assets in the direction of private AV sector.

It has been spoken in quiet rumors within the the company itself that BBD would like to focus harder on rail transportation technologies especially as it is appearing more and more likely that Kawasaki is looking to exit the North America rail transportation sector. At the moment, Kawasaki is expected to depart from all heavy rail vehicle manufacturing with in the next twenty-four months, with any remaining light rail to follow.
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queb
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:51 pm

I think Longview Aviation will shut down production in 2021 and focus on in-service support (more than 1000 aircrafts).
 
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macsog6
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:54 pm

This makes me wonder if there is not a greater consolidation coming in our industry. Textron has Bell, Cessna and Beech under their umbrella already and Sikorsky is part of Lockheed Martin. Now that Viking has - or is becoming - de Havilland Canada, will we see the other airframers such as Gulfstream, Piper, and the few other remaining get gobbled up in an industry wide consolidation? Another recent post suggested that Airbus merge with Rolls-Royce. Is the consolidation wave gaining traction?
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:16 pm

It's a bummer to see Bombardier winding down it's commercial aviation aircraft ops.

Not many solid airframe builders left in the commercial av space.
learning never stops.
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:12 pm

ELBOB wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Could the Q400 be stretched in any way from a technical standpoint?


Not without reworking the undercarriage again; it's right at the limit of tailstrike risk, 6 degrees of pitch. Which is incidentally the same as the ATR72.

An interesting thought experiment would be a longitudinal splice to widen the fuselage but that has only been done a few times in aviation history and to my knowledge never with a pressurised airframe ( though the 707 was widened from the 367-80, I suppose ).


Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

Viking Air is supporting a lot of DHC aircraft, yes and no. Aftermarket support requires maintenance know-how and parts availaibility. Viking is not the only one to have those, operators are rotating spares and MRO's around the world are supporting them.

2. Viking has not sold nor produced many 400 series Twotters since they launched. Some kit aircraft manufacturers are doing better than them. The price tag is too high and the reason why operators keep on going with their old Twotters. Didnt Viking furlough some assembly workers over the summer?

3. The Twotter is the main support product for Viking and the reason why they restarted production of it. But it's not a pressurised aircraft where special repairs need specialised engineering support from the OEM. The SRM is all you need for most repairs.

I think that Viking can do a proper job of supporting the Q400 as can most of the MRO's already working on the Q400's. However when OEM-type engineering support is needed, I'm not sure that they can step up to the plate on this type of aircraft. This is where the big OEM's excell. If you find corrosion or damage that is outside the scope of the SRM, they will tell you how to fix it in no time.

I also doubt that Viking will be able to keep the Q400 production line going. They are struggling with the sales of Twotters, and the Q400 is in a completely different game.
How are they going to win sales campaigns against ATR?
 
smartplane
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:25 pm

macsog6 wrote:
This makes me wonder if there is not a greater consolidation coming in our industry. Textron has Bell, Cessna and Beech under their umbrella already and Sikorsky is part of Lockheed Martin. Now that Viking has - or is becoming - de Havilland Canada, will we see the other airframers such as Gulfstream, Piper, and the few other remaining get gobbled up in an industry wide consolidation? Another recent post suggested that Airbus merge with Rolls-Royce. Is the consolidation wave gaining traction?

Spot on.

Canadian commercial aviation industry is poised for re-invigoration. Viking, PWC, RR, Airbus collaboration?
 
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PW100
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:30 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
I wonder if this is part of longer term strategy for Bombardier to leave the aerospace industry and focus on be a railway transportation business


I see Bombardier remaining in the business jet sector...but the regional jet business will be more challenging.


From the horses mouth . . . :
"Bombardier is well positioned with our rail, business aircraft and aero-structures business," says chief executive Alain Bellemare during Bombardier's third quarter earnings call. "In the future, this will be where we will deploy our capital to [ensure] strong return on investment."


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bombardier-shifts-focus-away-from-commercial-aircraf-453473/
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:15 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Could the Q400 be stretched in any way from a technical standpoint?


Not without reworking the undercarriage again; it's right at the limit of tailstrike risk, 6 degrees of pitch. Which is incidentally the same as the ATR72.

An interesting thought experiment would be a longitudinal splice to widen the fuselage but that has only been done a few times in aviation history and to my knowledge never with a pressurised airframe ( though the 707 was widened from the 367-80, I suppose ).


Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

Viking Air is supporting a lot of DHC aircraft, yes and no. Aftermarket support requires maintenance know-how and parts availaibility. Viking is not the only one to have those, operators are rotating spares and MRO's around the world are supporting them.

2. Viking has not sold nor produced many 400 series Twotters since they launched. Some kit aircraft manufacturers are doing better than them. The price tag is too high and the reason why operators keep on going with their old Twotters. Didnt Viking furlough some assembly workers over the summer?

3. The Twotter is the main support product for Viking and the reason why they restarted production of it. But it's not a pressurised aircraft where special repairs need specialised engineering support from the OEM. The SRM is all you need for most repairs.

I think that Viking can do a proper job of supporting the Q400 as can most of the MRO's already working on the Q400's. However when OEM-type engineering support is needed, I'm not sure that they can step up to the plate on this type of aircraft. This is where the big OEM's excell. If you find corrosion or damage that is outside the scope of the SRM, they will tell you how to fix it in no time.

I also doubt that Viking will be able to keep the Q400 production line going. They are struggling with the sales of Twotters, and the Q400 is in a completely different game.
How are they going to win sales campaigns against ATR?


The thing to remember, is that Viking is getting ALL of the Q400 operations; factory, manufacturing, service, parts, suppliers, sales...all the experience and expertise on the Q400...everything.

It's not as if Viking is starting from scratch.
What the...?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:17 pm

A good article on BBD. Soon they will be just in passenger rail and subway cars, I feel that both the CRJ and the business jet business will be gone within a few years.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/09/dont-cr ... ombardier/
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:26 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
A good article on BBD. Soon they will be just in passenger rail and subway cars, I feel that both the CRJ and the business jet business will be gone within a few years.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/09/dont-cr ... ombardier/


BBD makes money on bizjets so it's likely they'll keep that business for a long while. I'm guessing it's probably the most profitable part of the entire company.
What the...?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:04 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
A good article on BBD. Soon they will be just in passenger rail and subway cars, I feel that both the CRJ and the business jet business will be gone within a few years.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/09/dont-cr ... ombardier/


Going off topic a bit to address this issue: customers in Toronto and NYC are not happy with extensive delays with Bombardier, although Kawasaki's potential exit from the same segment, and Hyundai's recent exit from that, could help.
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:11 am

I would not be surprised we the consolidation of turboprop production in Western Canada over the coming years. Between YYC and YYJ there is considerable expertise with DH products. None the less Viking’s investment in the Q400 is a good thing for Canadian Aerospace, maybe not for Eastern/Western Canada relations.
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:21 am

cumulushumilis wrote:
I would not be surprised we the consolidation of turboprop production in Western Canada over the coming years. Between YYC and YYJ there is considerable expertise with DH products. None the less Viking’s investment in the Q400 is a good thing for Canadian Aerospace, maybe not for Eastern/Western Canada relations.


If they do decide to keep Q400 alive past 2021, where would they move production?
What the...?
 
gmcc
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:30 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
ELBOB wrote:

Not without reworking the undercarriage again; it's right at the limit of tailstrike risk, 6 degrees of pitch. Which is incidentally the same as the ATR72.

An interesting thought experiment would be a longitudinal splice to widen the fuselage but that has only been done a few times in aviation history and to my knowledge never with a pressurised airframe ( though the 707 was widened from the 367-80, I suppose ).


Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

Viking Air is supporting a lot of DHC aircraft, yes and no. Aftermarket support requires maintenance know-how and parts availaibility. Viking is not the only one to have those, operators are rotating spares and MRO's around the world are supporting them.

2. Viking has not sold nor produced many 400 series Twotters since they launched. Some kit aircraft manufacturers are doing better than them. The price tag is too high and the reason why operators keep on going with their old Twotters. Didnt Viking furlough some assembly workers over the summer?

3. The Twotter is the main support product for Viking and the reason why they restarted production of it. But it's not a pressurised aircraft where special repairs need specialised engineering support from the OEM. The SRM is all you need for most repairs.

I think that Viking can do a proper job of supporting the Q400 as can most of the MRO's already working on the Q400's. However when OEM-type engineering support is needed, I'm not sure that they can step up to the plate on this type of aircraft. This is where the big OEM's excell. If you find corrosion or damage that is outside the scope of the SRM, they will tell you how to fix it in no time.

I also doubt that Viking will be able to keep the Q400 production line going. They are struggling with the sales of Twotters, and the Q400 is in a completely different game.
How are they going to win sales campaigns against ATR?


The thing to remember, is that Viking is getting ALL of the Q400 operations; factory, manufacturing, service, parts, suppliers, sales...all the experience and expertise on the Q400...everything.

It's not as if Viking is starting from scratch.


Wonder if they would be interested in supplement certification Cascade aerospace has for the Q400 freighter conversion as well. Might be able to generate some revenue there as well
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:58 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
ELBOB wrote:

Not without reworking the undercarriage again; it's right at the limit of tailstrike risk, 6 degrees of pitch. Which is incidentally the same as the ATR72.

An interesting thought experiment would be a longitudinal splice to widen the fuselage but that has only been done a few times in aviation history and to my knowledge never with a pressurised airframe ( though the 707 was widened from the 367-80, I suppose ).


Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

Viking Air is supporting a lot of DHC aircraft, yes and no. Aftermarket support requires maintenance know-how and parts availaibility. Viking is not the only one to have those, operators are rotating spares and MRO's around the world are supporting them.

2. Viking has not sold nor produced many 400 series Twotters since they launched. Some kit aircraft manufacturers are doing better than them. The price tag is too high and the reason why operators keep on going with their old Twotters. Didnt Viking furlough some assembly workers over the summer?

3. The Twotter is the main support product for Viking and the reason why they restarted production of it. But it's not a pressurised aircraft where special repairs need specialised engineering support from the OEM. The SRM is all you need for most repairs.

I think that Viking can do a proper job of supporting the Q400 as can most of the MRO's already working on the Q400's. However when OEM-type engineering support is needed, I'm not sure that they can step up to the plate on this type of aircraft. This is where the big OEM's excell. If you find corrosion or damage that is outside the scope of the SRM, they will tell you how to fix it in no time.

I also doubt that Viking will be able to keep the Q400 production line going. They are struggling with the sales of Twotters, and the Q400 is in a completely different game.
How are they going to win sales campaigns against ATR?


The thing to remember, is that Viking is getting ALL of the Q400 operations; factory, manufacturing, service, parts, suppliers, sales...all the experience and expertise on the Q400...everything.

It's not as if Viking is starting from scratch.


That does help but I think that it would be naive to assume that BBD is gonna let its best structures and other engineers go to Viking. Engineering resources are usually shared among programs and the best part of the engineering resources are probably gonna be kept by BBD for the CRJ and bizjet programs.

200 million EUR is not a bad purchase price for a program like the Q400, but it will take at least a few hundred millions more in investments before they can stop spending and start earning, whether they call themselves Viking or de Havilland.

For instance, take the CL415 program. They bought it but what are they doing with it? They are not the exclusive vendor of parts, they are not building new ones. So how are they going to make a ROI?
Hope to sell high value parts that operators can order directly from vendors/manufacturers/scrapyards?
That doesn't seem to be very feasible.

Prestige is great but the saying "how to become a millionaire with aviation? " should always be kept in mind.
 
User avatar
452QX
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:30 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 am

Longview Aviation (owners of Viking) plan to revive the deHavilland name

https://www.fliegerfaust.com/viking-air ... 07983.html
(full article behind a paywall)
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:21 am

Waterbomber wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:

Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

Viking Air is supporting a lot of DHC aircraft, yes and no. Aftermarket support requires maintenance know-how and parts availaibility. Viking is not the only one to have those, operators are rotating spares and MRO's around the world are supporting them.

2. Viking has not sold nor produced many 400 series Twotters since they launched. Some kit aircraft manufacturers are doing better than them. The price tag is too high and the reason why operators keep on going with their old Twotters. Didnt Viking furlough some assembly workers over the summer?

3. The Twotter is the main support product for Viking and the reason why they restarted production of it. But it's not a pressurised aircraft where special repairs need specialised engineering support from the OEM. The SRM is all you need for most repairs.

I think that Viking can do a proper job of supporting the Q400 as can most of the MRO's already working on the Q400's. However when OEM-type engineering support is needed, I'm not sure that they can step up to the plate on this type of aircraft. This is where the big OEM's excell. If you find corrosion or damage that is outside the scope of the SRM, they will tell you how to fix it in no time.

I also doubt that Viking will be able to keep the Q400 production line going. They are struggling with the sales of Twotters, and the Q400 is in a completely different game.
How are they going to win sales campaigns against ATR?


The thing to remember, is that Viking is getting ALL of the Q400 operations; factory, manufacturing, service, parts, suppliers, sales...all the experience and expertise on the Q400...everything.

It's not as if Viking is starting from scratch.


That does help but I think that it would be naive to assume that BBD is gonna let its best structures and other engineers go to Viking. Engineering resources are usually shared among programs and the best part of the engineering resources are probably gonna be kept by BBD for the CRJ and bizjet programs.

200 million EUR is not a bad purchase price for a program like the Q400, but it will take at least a few hundred millions more in investments before they can stop spending and start earning, whether they call themselves Viking or de Havilland.

For instance, take the CL415 program. They bought it but what are they doing with it? They are not the exclusive vendor of parts, they are not building new ones. So how are they going to make a ROI?
Hope to sell high value parts that operators can order directly from vendors/manufacturers/scrapyards?
That doesn't seem to be very feasible.

Prestige is great but the saying "how to become a millionaire with aviation? " should always be kept in mind.


Viking has been in the aircraft business for a long time.

As of 2016, they sold their 100th Twin Otter 400...at over 6 million dollars each. I doubt they paid very much for the CL-415 program...and they were already doing -215T conversions.

Producing more aircraft off of an already operating line isn't terribly engineer heavy. Basically, it's business as usual, and not as if Viking is taking over production tomorrow. They have a year until the deal is finalized to get familiar with whatever the Q400 product line requires.

Regardless, I don't imagine Longview spent 300 million CAD on the Q400 without working out how to make their money back on the program. BBD will be laying off over 2000 people in the next year...presumably some of them would be engineers that might be happy to work for Viking.
What the...?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:31 am

One now has to ask if Viking/DHC or someone else will seek a type certificate to "zero-time" Dash 8 aircraft. Viking already competes with Ikhana for Twin Otter sales, as the latter offers a "zero-time" option. As it is, the DH8D is already available in both a freighter conversion and a combi. I expect this to be pushed heavily in environments such as the USA, Canada, southeast Asia, and India.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 884
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:47 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
A good article on BBD. Soon they will be just in passenger rail and subway cars, I feel that both the CRJ and the business jet business will be gone within a few years.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/09/dont-cr ... ombardier/


Going off topic a bit to address this issue: customers in Toronto and NYC are not happy with extensive delays with Bombardier, although Kawasaki's potential exit from the same segment, and Hyundai's recent exit from that, could help.


It is not good to make major system customers unhappy. BBD has been incredibly late on a number of projects, and they have missed the short list on some projects because of it. A few years back I thought they would exit that to just do aerospace.

A CBC article on delays on 2 projects. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.4461699
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3930
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:59 am

c933103 wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
No, they sold it to Longview Aviation Capital. Sound like they are getting out of the commercial aircraft business. Maybe they sold off the Q Series was part of a bigger plan to sell off the rest to Airbus?

You mean Bombardier? No, at least they are claiming, claiming that they're going to focus on CRJ afterward.

Did they?
The same press release announcing the sale of the Q400 program also states Bombardier is focusing on their transportation, business aircraft, and aerostructures, none of which include commercial aircraft (for transportation, read rail). The aerospace engineering team is also, for the most part, being absorbed into the business aircraft division.
MAGag
 
c933103
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:13 pm

blueflyer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Beatyair wrote:
No, they sold it to Longview Aviation Capital. Sound like they are getting out of the commercial aircraft business. Maybe they sold off the Q Series was part of a bigger plan to sell off the rest to Airbus?

You mean Bombardier? No, at least they are claiming, claiming that they're going to focus on CRJ afterward.

Did they?
The same press release announcing the sale of the Q400 program also states Bombardier is focusing on their transportation, business aircraft, and aerostructures, none of which include commercial aircraft (for transportation, read rail). The aerospace engineering team is also, for the most part, being absorbed into the business aircraft division.

re-reading it it looks more like they're focused on thinking about what to do with it?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2002
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:57 pm

2175301 wrote:
Gentlemen: Please look up what Viking did with the previous models that they first acquired rights to provide support, and then the type certificates. Viking has an excellent reputation for providing world wide support for the Dash 1-7. Yes the Dash 8 (Q series) is larger; but, they already have a lot of experience with international support for airlines that do routine flights (mainly the Twotter) and other aircraft.

They are also buying the entire existing Bombardier program - complete with all of the operational personnel and existing facilities and stockpiles (which they did not get with the Dash 1-7).

This is only a situation where they have to properly manage it - and they have the history of worldwide support expertise to build on. They are not some yokels who have no concept of the requirements.

Have a great day


I wonder if they will use the existing Q400 infrastructure to kickstart reproduction of the other airliners they own the rights to. The smaller DHC-8 variants should be easy enough, although they will require extensive work to bring them up to date, unless they are to remain niche products. The Dash-7 seems to hold a niche in some parts of the world. How small a production batch would be feasible to build?
No offense to Viking Air, they have a great reputation, but going from building and supporting Twin Otters to regional airliners is a big step, and taking the jump with the Q400 acquisition could be a simpler and safer way of doing it.
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:43 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:

The thing to remember, is that Viking is getting ALL of the Q400 operations; factory, manufacturing, service, parts, suppliers, sales...all the experience and expertise on the Q400...everything.

It's not as if Viking is starting from scratch.


That does help but I think that it would be naive to assume that BBD is gonna let its best structures and other engineers go to Viking. Engineering resources are usually shared among programs and the best part of the engineering resources are probably gonna be kept by BBD for the CRJ and bizjet programs.

200 million EUR is not a bad purchase price for a program like the Q400, but it will take at least a few hundred millions more in investments before they can stop spending and start earning, whether they call themselves Viking or de Havilland.

For instance, take the CL415 program. They bought it but what are they doing with it? They are not the exclusive vendor of parts, they are not building new ones. So how are they going to make a ROI?
Hope to sell high value parts that operators can order directly from vendors/manufacturers/scrapyards?
That doesn't seem to be very feasible.

Prestige is great but the saying "how to become a millionaire with aviation? " should always be kept in mind.


Viking has been in the aircraft business for a long time.

As of 2016, they sold their 100th Twin Otter 400...at over 6 million dollars each. I doubt they paid very much for the CL-415 program...and they were already doing -215T conversions.

Producing more aircraft off of an already operating line isn't terribly engineer heavy. Basically, it's business as usual, and not as if Viking is taking over production tomorrow. They have a year until the deal is finalized to get familiar with whatever the Q400 product line requires.

Regardless, I don't imagine Longview spent 300 million CAD on the Q400 without working out how to make their money back on the program. BBD will be laying off over 2000 people in the next year...presumably some of them would be engineers that might be happy to work for Viking.


Producing is not the hard part IMO.
It's sales that is the tough part.
The Twotter 400 line stands at around 150 sold units in over 10 years since launch. Even the A380 sold more.
We're talking about a highly desirable 19-seater.
Viking has priced the Twotter out of the market. Twotter operators prefer to run their old Twotters through expensive maintenance rather than buying new.

What will be different for the Q400?
Viking will have to be very aggressive on pricing if they hope to keep the production line running at all.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Actually, not a highly desired 19-seater. It does point that the small turboprop market is vanishingly small.

GF
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:59 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

:rotfl: With how often a-nutters comment on the "over-powered Q400," you'd think this is the one problem a stretch wouldn't have.

As to the tail-strikes, maybe a stretch just needs some MAX10-style landing gear? :duck:
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10334
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:40 pm

The Dash 8 requires more than just a Twotter style NG warm-over to be competitive against new ATRs or the buoyant second hand market for 50 seaters. It's a 35 year old frame, which isn't well optimised to serve the kind of small and remote airports where it has maintained a niche. The -100's performance from <799m runways is now basically matched by the ATR 42-600, albeit with more flexibility across the full route network.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Waterbomber
Posts: 747
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:17 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Yeah but then you will also require more powerful engines to deal with the increased drag and weight and your aircraft becomes more expensive.
The Q400's acquisition price is already in RJ territory, pushing it up further is not an option.

:rotfl: With how often a-nutters comment on the "over-powered Q400," you'd think this is the one problem a stretch wouldn't have.

As to the tail-strikes, maybe a stretch just needs some MAX10-style landing gear? :duck:


Yeah but overpowered engines quickly become underpowered when you widen the fuselage in an attempt to fit more pax. The excess power is already quickly absorbed by the extra weight. Something still needs to absorb the extra drag unless you want to end up with something that flies like a peacock.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 884
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:19 am

I think one of two things will happen a) The Q400 factory moves to a western province, possibly Alberta before the backlog is run thru, or b) It stays put and shuts down at the end of the current orders.

The Q400 could have been a lot more than it has, I wonder what is the future for it. A good history of the model

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