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Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:27 am

https://theaircurrent.com/scoops/viking ... ombardier/

If these sources are correct, Viking has its work cut for them.
 
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GE9X
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:50 am

Wow! Crazy how far Viking Air has come if they can actually secure the financing for this. It's not that long ago they were barely building a few Twin Otters a year so it's a major step up for them. For one the Q400NG is quite a bit more evolved than old Dash 8s and especially the Twin Otter, it's a different beast to manufacture that kind of plane. Even the larger CL415 bomber is much simpler to make. Second the need to deploy support for the global Dash 8 / Q400 fleet is unprecedented for a company that size, the deal will probably have to involve some kind of arrangement to transfer part of Bombardier's support network. And third, my main concern about this is how much life does the Q400NG have left? It's a good aircraft for the most part, but ATR is a stiff competitor--especially if fuel costs rise again given how overengined the Q400 is with 10,000 shp (!), doesn't exactly sip fuel. Maybe Viking will be better equipped and more willing to deal with low-rate production than Bombardier... and maybe that's the plan?

If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:52 am

Viking Air is large enough to run the entire Q400 program?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:11 am

I wonder if the arrangement would include the rights to the older Dash 8 models and whether Viking might be interested in resurrecting them, as they've done with the twotter.

Given their niche positioning, I can't really see them supplying and supporting a global fleet of Q400s for established airlines unless they seriously step up their game. Smaller operators looking for T-prop capacity that doesn't exist anymore, however, are right in their field.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:45 am

If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Despite what many think, BBD was, is and will again be, a bizjet builder. They have, since the first CRJ delivery, sold and delivered more business jets than airliners at better margins, both on delivery and after sale support. They are one or two on the bizjet OEM list, by either revenue or units.

Over 800 Globals, nearly 2,000 Challengers and 700-ish Learjet 45/45/70/75.

GF
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:36 am

Hey guys,
It kinda makes sense .... Viking becomes the new de Havilland Canada in a way, but I hope they can pull it off! I really hope that a neo/MAX style Q200/300/400 eventuates, as I feel the world needs it but I fear that Viking alone wouldn't be able to do it.
I wonder what ATR think of this news? I can guess....
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:53 am

That is either just a close down of the program or a huge challenge for Viking Air. They would need to seriously up their game when it comes to sales and support.
 
2175301
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:07 am

I actually believe the Viking will be successful with supporting the Q series. Look what they did with the Twotter...
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Despite what many think, BBD was, is and will again be, a bizjet builder. They have, since the first CRJ delivery, sold and delivered more business jets than airliners at better margins, both on delivery and after sale support. They are one or two on the bizjet OEM list, by either revenue or units.

Over 800 Globals, nearly 2,000 Challengers and 700-ish Learjet 45/45/70/75.

GF


Who's first, Cessna or Gulf?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Despite what many think, BBD was, is and will again be, a bizjet builder. They have, since the first CRJ delivery, sold and delivered more business jets than airliners at better margins, both on delivery and after sale support. They are one or two on the bizjet OEM list, by either revenue or units.

Over 800 Globals, nearly 2,000 Challengers and 700-ish Learjet 45/45/70/75.

GF


I believe there was a thread not too long ago about the future of Bombardier, having sold a share of the C-Series (and giving Airbus a call option on the rest). Out of the scheduled passenger aviation business was one answer.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:08 am

2175301 wrote:
I actually believe the Viking will be successful with supporting the Q series. Look what they did with the Twotter...


The Twin Otter and Q400 are airplanes of wholly different complexity, sophistication, architecture and maintenance requirements - so the level and intensity of support they require is incomparable (to say the least). If true, this acquisition is on the order of a small regional ATV manufacturer buying an established worldwide maker of city buses; the may be able to pull it off if the play it right and have deep cash reserves - but the challenge that awaits them is not to be underestimated, not compared to past successes.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:16 am

If the Dash 8 program is acquired by Viking Air (which already owns the type certificates for the Dash 1 through Dash 7 and builds new Twin Otters), I see them gauging interest in the Q300 specifically and potentially restarting production on that 50-seat turboprop. Any deal would likely need to include YHZ. (Bizjet production could move to YMX.)

TripleDelta wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I actually believe the Viking will be successful with supporting the Q series. Look what they did with the Twotter...


The Twin Otter and Q400 are airplanes of wholly different complexity, sophistication, architecture and maintenance requirements - so the level and intensity of support they require is incomparable (to say the least). If true, this acquisition is on the order of a small regional ATV manufacturer buying an established worldwide maker of city buses; the may be able to pull it off if the play it right and have deep cash reserves - but the challenge that awaits them is not to be underestimated, not compared to past successes.


Bombardier's expansion is similar in that originally began by making recreational products like the Ski-Doo and Sea-Doo. Then it branched out into aerospace by buying the nearly-bankrupt Canadair from the Canadian government (the Challenger having nearly bankrupted it) and then de Havilland Canada, and into mass transit with contracts for cities like Toronto and NYC. (The original businesses were sold in 2003 but continue to license the Bombardier name.)
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:31 am

Confirmation from Bombardier for $300 millions.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/new ... ercom.html?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 am

Now that Viking has the rights to all Dash 8 series this could actually be interesting an updated Q300 and Q200 could potentially give ATR some competition.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:54 am

TripleDelta wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I actually believe the Viking will be successful with supporting the Q series. Look what they did with the Twotter...


The Twin Otter and Q400 are airplanes of wholly different complexity, sophistication, architecture and maintenance requirements - so the level and intensity of support they require is incomparable (to say the least). If true, this acquisition is on the order of a small regional ATV manufacturer buying an established worldwide maker of city buses; the may be able to pull it off if the play it right and have deep cash reserves - but the challenge that awaits them is not to be underestimated, not compared to past successes.


I think one should not start to short change Viking Air. It is not only the Twin Otter, but any model below the DHC-8 you would need to get your service through Viking Air.
Any still flying Dash 7 for example, hardly less complex than the DHC-8.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:04 pm

Where did they find 300 millions?
To me it also looks like too much of a challenge for such a small company that even struggled to sell the twotters.
For 300 milion USD, Airbus should have bought it.

Service wise, perhaps, but building new ones??
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:12 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I think one should not start to short change Viking Air. It is not only the Twin Otter, but any model below the DHC-8 you would need to get your service through Viking Air.
Any still flying Dash 7 for example, hardly less complex than the DHC-8.


And all of those models are either very easy to service - or, in the case of the Dash 7, very very few in number. Supporting a fleet of 500-something airliners - with airliner servicing and regulatory requirements - scattered across the width and breadth of the world is a completely different level of challenging.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:21 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Where did they find 300 millions?
To me it also looks like too much of a challenge for such a small company that even struggled to sell the twotters.
For 300 milion USD, Airbus should have bought it.

Service wise, perhaps, but building new ones??


Airbus already owns %50 of ATR and has zero need for BBDs prop business.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:33 pm

That's potentially paving the way for the development of a new generation of the CRJ in a few years' time.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:37 pm

This makes sense, but is a surprise still. I am one who wonders how Viking received the backing.
TripleDelta wrote:
And all of those models are either very easy to service - or, in the case of the Dash 7, very very few in number. Supporting a fleet of 500-something airliners - with airliner servicing and regulatory requirements - scattered across the width and breadth of the world is a completely different level of challenging.

Bombardier at time had challenges supporting the fleet. It is easy if you make customers buy enough spare parts, but they want to minimize cash flow...

I hope production continues. I hope they improve the Q400 to keep it in the market.

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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:41 pm

Viking is backed by billionaire Thomson family cousin Sherry Brydson.
The Thomsons are Canada's richest family.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:43 pm

Since Viking is also acquiring the q100 to 400 series could this possibly result in the 37 seater and 50 seater q-series production lines reopening(with some improvements made to the designs). I'm sure Viking is more open to the idea of a niche market and slower sales. Would be great to see a new 37 seater turboprop.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:45 pm

GE9X wrote:
If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Won't they technically still own 49% of the C-series?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:49 pm

wakymike wrote:
That's potentially paving the way for the development of a new generation of the CRJ in a few years' time.


I could see CRJ-700, -900 NEO as there is a significant replacement market. Although the CF34 powered E175 has already eaten some of it. http://www.aviatorjoe.net/go/compare/E175/CRJ900/
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:51 pm

Rbgso wrote:
GE9X wrote:
If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Won't they technically still own 49% of the C-series?


33,55%, as Investissement Québec owns the remaining 16,44%
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 46300.html This is press release by Viking Air's parent company on the matter.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:57 pm

Perhaps they'll come full circle and rebrand as 'de Havilland Canada'?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:04 pm

300 million canadian is only about 230 million US and 200 million euros.
They get the de Havilland brand name too.

flipping it to the Chinese might be an option.
New owner can tackle costs as they shouldn't have to worry about Unions bringing the rest of their operations to a halt with strike actions.

Is Q400 really so ancient. What can you do with a clean sheet design that isn't nullified by the amortized costs of an Q400 with new engines stuck on it.

The markets appear to be happy with the results as the share price is up 5% at the moment.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:07 pm

No, they sold it to Longview Aviation Capital. Sound like they are getting out of the commercial aircraft business. Maybe they sold off the Q Series was part of a bigger plan to sell off the rest to Airbus?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:38 pm

TheDBCooper wrote:
Perhaps they'll come full circle and rebrand as 'de Havilland Canada'?


That press release almost confirms it!
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:39 pm

tys777 wrote:
Airbus already owns %50 of ATR and has zero need for BBDs prop business.


And also the C212, CN235 and C295 are owned by Airbus and, except for the last one, they have been used as civil airliners.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:46 pm

By selling the Q400 program, BBD won't compete with ATR (Airbus) anymore.

That opens up more cooperation opportunities with Airbus. Like integrating the Business Jets / CRJs supply chain into the Airbus's ecosystem maybe? (Similar to what the CSeries obtained).

Embraer will obtain the same benefit from Boeing for all of its production line; BBD may as well act accordingly...
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:03 pm

 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:50 pm

WN732 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Bombardier dumps the CRJ next it will be out of the commercial airliner market and banking entirely on Global, a little bit of Challenger, and the poor Learjet which hasn't done well under BBD.


Despite what many think, BBD was, is and will again be, a bizjet builder. They have, since the first CRJ delivery, sold and delivered more business jets than airliners at better margins, both on delivery and after sale support. They are one or two on the bizjet OEM list, by either revenue or units.

Over 800 Globals, nearly 2,000 Challengers and 700-ish Learjet 45/45/70/75.

GF


Who's first, Cessna or Gulf?


By revenue, BBD and GLF have flipped between one and two a few times. Cessna was number one by units delivered. I haven’t looked at GAMA’s numbers lately.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:02 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I actually believe the Viking will be successful with supporting the Q series. Look what they did with the Twotter...


The Twin Otter and Q400 are airplanes of wholly different complexity, sophistication, architecture and maintenance requirements - so the level and intensity of support they require is incomparable (to say the least). If true, this acquisition is on the order of a small regional ATV manufacturer buying an established worldwide maker of city buses; the may be able to pull it off if the play it right and have deep cash reserves - but the challenge that awaits them is not to be underestimated, not compared to past successes.


This is my concern. Surely a small fish like Viking Air owning the Q400 program is more likely to hurt sales? Airlines would be less reluctant to place orders if the owner is at a higher risk of becoming insolvent?

TheDBCooper wrote:
Perhaps they'll come full circle and rebrand as 'de Havilland Canada'?

I would like that a lot.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:24 pm

zkojq wrote:
This is my concern. Surely a small fish like Viking Air owning the Q400 program is more likely to hurt sales? Airlines would be less reluctant to place orders if the owner is at a higher risk of becoming insolvent?


IMO, it's not Viking's solvency that's the problem - it's the level of global after-sales support that they can provide (especially near-term). When you take on an established program like the Q400 - which, despite all its faults, is still a "full blown airliner" with all its complexity and legal requirements - your customers will expect that you will be there for them, and quickly, when things go south. If Viking can't swing this, current customers (accustomed to and planning for Bombardier's level of service) will quickly start making noise - which then may discourage future customers. Just look at Sukhoi with the Superjet; it has a good aircraft that needs to mature... but is constantly held back by a lack of A/B-quality support from the manufacturer.

EDIT: just to further clarify my point, I'm not arguing that Viking will fail by default - but that they now have a higher mountain to climb than even before. They need to be on the ball with regards to support from Day 1; the customers they now have to deal with - airlines in a very cut-throat financial environment, not small utility operators in the bush - will not tolerate them "taking it slow until they get to grips with the system". Every day/week/month that Viking would spend getting into the groove would cost airlines dearly.
Last edited by TripleDelta on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:30 pm

Beatyair wrote:
No, they sold it to Longview Aviation Capital. Sound like they are getting out of the commercial aircraft business. Maybe they sold off the Q Series was part of a bigger plan to sell off the rest to Airbus?


If you read the release, the program was sold to a subsidiary of Longview Aviation Capital (i.e., Viking).

Waterbomber wrote:
Where did they find 300 millions?
To me it also looks like too much of a challenge for such a small company that even struggled to sell the twotters.
For 300 milion USD, Airbus should have bought it.

Service wise, perhaps, but building new ones??


Viking is owned by an investment firm...its got plenty of money.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:35 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
By selling the Q400 program, BBD won't compete with ATR (Airbus) anymore.

That opens up more cooperation opportunities with Airbus. Like integrating the Business Jets / CRJs supply chain into the Airbus's ecosystem maybe? (Similar to what the CSeries obtained).

Embraer will obtain the same benefit from Boeing for all of its production line; BBD may as well act accordingly...

That was my very first thought. Snuggle up to Airbus. It makes sense to me.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm

Beatyair wrote:
No, they sold it to Longview Aviation Capital. Sound like they are getting out of the commercial aircraft business. Maybe they sold off the Q Series was part of a bigger plan to sell off the rest to Airbus?

You mean Bombardier? No, at least they are claiming, claiming that they're going to focus on CRJ afterward.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:55 pm

I like how Viking keeps those programs going. From my point of view many developing countries could make use of these airplanes, including the amphibious ones.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:05 pm

I’m glad to see Viking got it rather than it going to China.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:05 pm

From my interpretation all employees from the Q400/Dash 8 program are coming over to Viking & they bought everything involved lock stock & barrel so it's not like they have to set up new lines, train employees & develop a support network. They just have to properly manage what they bought. The best way to run things for the foreseeable future is just let the people who are running things for Bombardier keep running it for Viking until Viking gets up to speed.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:19 pm

Likely the end of the programme in the medium term??
I mean, I don't see airlines trusting a small-ish company to provide adequate resources and support for the Q400. It's a complicated, high-performance, expensive aircraft. And even less so to provide a much needed NG version in order to remain somewhat competitive?.. I mean, I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but....

And the moment they dump the CRJ programme (don't know who to though?) that is a dead fish too me thinks...... Who would seriously want to invest money in that programme??
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I believe there was a thread not too long ago about the future of Bombardier, having sold a share of the C-Series (and giving Airbus a call option on the rest). Out of the scheduled passenger aviation business was one answer.


They're definitely looking to get out of the commercial passenger airliner business. They made the following statement about the CRJ program in their earnings release:

our full attention is turning to the CRJ program. As we continue to actively participate in the regional aircraft market with our established, scope compliant aircraft, our focus is on reducing cost and increasing volumes while optimizing the aftermarket for the approximately 1,500 CRJ’s in service around the world today. As we look to return the CRJ to profitability, we will also explore strategic options for the program.


"Explore strategic options" is corporate-speak for "look for a buyer and if we can't find one, wind it down."
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:26 pm

Could the Q400 be stretched in any way from a technical standpoint?
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:43 pm

On a interesting and related note QX has a job posting pop up this week for a service engineer to work on specifically on the Q400 in regards to reliability and to interface with the manufacturer. The two events might not be related but I bet they had some notice this was going to happen and wanted to be somewhat prepared for this.
 
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:26 pm

JealousTrooper wrote:
Since Viking is also acquiring the q100 to 400 series could this possibly result in the 37 seater and 50 seater q-series production lines reopening(with some improvements made to the designs). I'm sure Viking is more open to the idea of a niche market and slower sales. Would be great to see a new 37 seater turboprop.


I believe it's only the Q400's building rights. The Q100-300 is intelectual property and such. Not the actual tooling.
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Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:29 pm

No doubt this has a lot to do with the recent sale of the airport land at Downsview where the aircraft is produced. Bombardier stated at the time that they would move Q-400 production to Toronto airport YYZ! That didn't make sense given all that is happening at YYZ and the press release was probably just a stalling tactic by Bombardier while they searched for a buyer. Unions were very vocal when the land was initially offered for sale as they were concerned that production would move to Montreal with the consequent loss of jobs in Toronto. This would be a clean deal for Bombardier with the proceeds of the land sale and the Q-400 line helping their bottom line. Their share prices have suffered a lot lately and it will be interesting to see how the markets respond assuming this is all true.
 
baje427
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:31 pm

Was the tooling for the Q200 and Q300 destroyed? I do imagine Viking will be trying to get the smaller Dash 8's back into production.
 
Breathe
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Q400 Program said to be sold to Viking Air

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:35 pm

I wonder if this is part of longer term strategy for Bombardier to leave the aerospace industry and focus on be a railway transportation business

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