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Loran
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:35 am

Double Post
Last edited by Loran on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Loran
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:38 am

I am one of the locally affected, I live only about 1km from the threshold of Rwy 28 which handles 90% of ZRH's departures.
The C-Series is clearly the quietest plane around ZRH and a joy to (not) hear, except the described 'howl' when the engines spool up, during taxi and takeoff. Depending on wind you hear the howl across the entire city named Kloten.

I somewhat understand the people who complain about this noise, it is indeed very loud and clearly you'd expect a recent engine design not to emit such noise. With an upcoming fleet of 30x C-Series this leads to a constant holwing across Kloten. I assume it has to do with the gearbox since it is peculiar to the PW1500 (strangely not heard on the PW1100, i.e. A320 NEO).

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining myself and I consciously took the decision to live near the airport, however it is a bit odd that such a new engine design emits such a loud noise in certain instances. In the high expectations of new airplanes becoming quieter, this is probably what makes people complain.

Regards,
Loran
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BritishB747
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:48 am

I live a couple of miles from LCY (as the crow flies) south of the River Thames, so not on the arrival or departure flight path. I live on a quiet residential street at the top of a hill. During the summer when I had the windows open and the wind was blowing the right way, you could hear the 'whale-like' howl of the Swiss C-Series taxiing around the apron. It is a very distinctive sound, but it only lasted a couple of seconds, but it was audible compared to the other jets that operate from LCY. The noise of these engines doesn't bother me in the slightest but it is noticeable from the rest.

Perhaps the noise only lasted for a couple of seconds for me due to the direction the C-Series was pointing at the time. Then again it could've been that it was drowned out by a BA 744, or oddly, the MEA A332 which seems to be slightly louder than the rest.
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PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:46 pm

Short rant here, just because.

The more comfortable humans are, the more likely they are to complain about anything and everything. It's not just teenagers, it's not just millenials, it's not just baby-boomers, and it's not just grumpy senior citizens. I tell my students on their first day of 9th grade to watch for people who "complain when they're too comfortable and have nothing to complain about".

In San Diego, one of the arguments against moving SAN out to Miramar should it ever become available was, "the noise will be horrible!" Residents screamed like they were auditioning for a horror movie as Panicky Idiot #2, arguing that the Apocalypse was coming. Okay, somewhat understood - but when I proceeded to ask about the vast amount of military traffic at Miramar and the noise coming from that, the reply was, "that's the sound of FREEDOM, boy!"

So military traffic 24/7/365 at very high decibels will allow them to sleep peacefully, but a commercial jet at less than half the volume meant the end of the world. Yeah, that didn't make sense to me then, and it doesn't make sense to me now. But that kind of cognitive dissonance exists all over the world.
 
MartijnNL
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Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:13 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
I remember a story once, I don't know where it was, however there was a guy filing an official complaint about every aircraft that landed. He claimed he had noise disturbance from all these aircraft. He was busted when he filed a complaint about a cancelled flight. Turned out he was just looking at the timetables and at the time an aircraft was scheduled to pass he filed a complaint about it. He didn't hear them at all, otherwise he would have noticed the absence of sound from the cancelled flight.

I believe this happened at Rotterdam Airport in the Netherlands, the aircraft in question being a Boeing 727 of Istanbul Airlines. The man used the flight information published on television text (teletekst). When the airport listed the flight mistakenly as departed, the man filed a complaint. The aircraft however was still on the platform, maybe suffering a technical delay. I don't remember all the details. But the man complained about departing flights, probably because they make more noise than arriving flights.
 
Beedo46
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:30 pm

m0ssy wrote:
While I haven't heard this whistle, I have a hard time relating to those who don't enjoy the aircraft noise. I get it, some people just don't, but I lived under the approach/departure path west of Hartsfield for years, and loved every minute of it. :D


My old neighborhood was where the Convention Center/ Car Rental/ Delta parking are now. My Elementary School was under the approach for the North runways.
 
A3801000
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:55 pm

This isn't about any noise, this guy has a political agenda, just google his name.
 
144modeller
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:21 pm

On one of Concorde's rare visits to Manchester's Ringway airport, it waited patiently to take off behind one of Freddie Laker's BAC One-Elevens. The Laker sat on the end of the runway, wheels firmly braked, while the engines were revved up to full speed. The noise was horrendous, all the glasses in the bar of the Airport Hotel threatened to rattle on to the floor. Finally the brakes were released and the 1-11 leaped away. I suspect this was done on purpose, as the subsequent Concorde take-off was quiet by comparison, drawing none of the usual complaints.
 
N212R
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:19 pm

Loran wrote:
The C-Series is clearly the quietest plane around ZRH and a joy to (not) hear except the described 'howl' when the engines spool up, during taxi and takeoff. Depending on wind you hear the howl across the entire city named Kloten.


Is there such a thing as auditory dissonance?

I somewhat understand the people who complain about this noise, it is indeed very loud and clearly you'd expect a recent engine design not to emit such noise.


But still the "quietest plane around... :roll:
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:29 pm

Loran wrote:
however it is a bit odd that such a new engine design emits such a loud noise in certain instances


Don't overlook the possibility that it could be something else than the engines. The design of the aircraft itself might cause it to act like a whistle, after all the air around the aircraft is bend in certain ways and each air movement influences the next. So far we only know the sound comes from the aircraft, but we don't know where in the aircraft.

Same misassumption happens with cars. Most people that hear cars passing assume the sound they hear is from the engine. This is in fact not true, the engine hardly makes any sound. What you hear are the tyres on the asphalt, that's what makes the most noise from a car.
 
N212R
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:30 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The more comfortable humans are, the more likely they are to complain about anything and everything.


For this to be anything close to correct, its converse axiom would need to be true. The less comfortable humans are, the less likely they are to complain.... We know this isn't the case. With a post predicated on nonsense, the rest is just noise.
 
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Loran
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:59 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Loran wrote:
however it is a bit odd that such a new engine design emits such a loud noise in certain instances


Don't overlook the possibility that it could be something else than the engines. The design of the aircraft itself might cause it to act like a whistle, after all the air around the aircraft is bend in certain ways and each air movement influences the next. So far we only know the sound comes from the aircraft, but we don't know where in the aircraft.

Same misassumption happens with cars. Most people that hear cars passing assume the sound they hear is from the engine. This is in fact not true, the engine hardly makes any sound. What you hear are the tyres on the asphalt, that's what makes the most noise from a car.

Fair point, but from my point of view the noise clearly originates from the engines, easy to hear when you fly onboard the C-Series. I have had 15 flights so far, it emits the noise during taxi when adding power and when setting takeoff thrust. If it is the gearbox or any other component, not 100% sure, but I assume it is the gearbox. But I invite others to comment, this is as mentioned my interpretation.

N212R wrote:
But still the "quietest plane around... :roll:

I am not sure if you are quoting me, but if you want to quote me then you need to quote me correctly. I said it is the quietest plane around "except" the engine howl.

Regards,
Loran
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MartijnNL
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:05 am

A3801000 wrote:
This isn't about any noise, this guy has a political agenda, just google his name.

He might have a political agenda, but the noise is real.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2070
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:11 am

N212R wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The more comfortable humans are, the more likely they are to complain about anything and everything.


For this to be anything close to correct, its converse axiom would need to be true. The less comfortable humans are, the less likely they are to complain.... We know this isn't the case. .


Well it actually IS the case really. Poor people are a lot less likely to complain, they [have to] take life a lot as is, and really have no time for minutiae like the 'howl of a CS100' on taxi...
The great big moaners are in fact inevitably people who have it really rather easy and comfortable...as is someone living comfortably in a luxury villa in the green ZRH suburbs and whose main gripe is the howl of a brand new jet!!
 
OlafW
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:05 am

When I read "unusual sounds when the A220 passes overhead,", I find that kind of ironic, given that the A220 replaced the Avro RJ100 which also made some unique sounds on approach and final...
Maybe it's inherited? :D
 
MileHFL400
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:02 am

Gosh there’s nothing I love more than the sound of a B747-400 or B777 spooling up or a V8 revving. I guess I was born in the wrong generation.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Peterwk146
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:09 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh there’s nothing I love more than the sound of a B747-400 or B777 spooling up or a V8 revving. I guess I was born in the wrong generation.

I used to work in the Engineering Centre at Hawker Siddeley Aviation/British Aerospace facility in Hatfield, UK from 1975 until 1992.

When I first joined the company, they were making the HS121 Trident.

Now, bearing in mind that the runway was about half a mile from the Engineering Centre, if you were on the telephone and a Trident ran its engines up to take-off, you had to put the phone down because you couldn't hear the conversation!

A bit off topic, I know, but it puts things in context.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 455
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:35 pm

Peterwk146 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh there’s nothing I love more than the sound of a B747-400 or B777 spooling up or a V8 revving. I guess I was born in the wrong generation.

I used to work in the Engineering Centre at Hawker Siddeley Aviation/British Aerospace facility in Hatfield, UK from 1975 until 1992.

When I first joined the company, they were making the HS121 Trident.

Now, bearing in mind that the runway was about half a mile from the Engineering Centre, if you were on the telephone and a Trident ran its engines up to take-off, you had to put the phone down because you couldn't hear the conversation!

A bit off topic, I know, but it puts things in context.


I love that!!
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
SteelChair
Posts: 481
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Peterwk146 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh there’s nothing I love more than the sound of a B747-400 or B777 spooling up or a V8 revving. I guess I was born in the wrong generation.

I used to work in the Engineering Centre at Hawker Siddeley Aviation/British Aerospace facility in Hatfield, UK from 1975 until 1992.

When I first joined the company, they were making the HS121 Trident.

Now, bearing in mind that the runway was about half a mile from the Engineering Centre, if you were on the telephone and a Trident ran its engines up to take-off, you had to put the phone down because you couldn't hear the conversation!

A bit off topic, I know, but it puts things in context.


I love that!!


Agree. Priceless. The first hand actual experiences are one of the main reasons i come here.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 164
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:51 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
N212R wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The more comfortable humans are, the more likely they are to complain about anything and everything.


For this to be anything close to correct, its converse axiom would need to be true. The less comfortable humans are, the less likely they are to complain.... We know this isn't the case. .


Well it actually IS the case really. Poor people are a lot less likely to complain, they [have to] take life a lot as is, and really have no time for minutiae like the 'howl of a CS100' on taxi...
The great big moaners are in fact inevitably people who have it really rather easy and comfortable...as is someone living comfortably in a luxury villa in the green ZRH suburbs and whose main gripe is the howl of a brand new jet!!


Thank you for recognizing the sarcasm and irony I was going for. You finished my thought. Much obliged!!
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2070
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:23 pm

Peterwk146 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Gosh there’s nothing I love more than the sound of a B747-400 or B777 spooling up or a V8 revving. I guess I was born in the wrong generation.

I used to work in the Engineering Centre at Hawker Siddeley Aviation/British Aerospace facility in Hatfield, UK from 1975 until 1992.

When I first joined the company, they were making the HS121 Trident.

Now, bearing in mind that the runway was about half a mile from the Engineering Centre, if you were on the telephone and a Trident ran its engines up to take-off, you had to put the phone down because you couldn't hear the conversation!

A bit off topic, I know, but it puts things in context.


Haaaa.... :hyper: your comment has made my day...

I am back in 1975 with you, in that office, holding that heavy telephone receiver in my hand whilst we both listen to the crackle of those 3 revving Speys..... Oh my.....
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:19 pm

KentB27 wrote:
Don't live near an airport if noise is an issue for you. People who complain about living in noisy environments should have done more research on that area before they moved there. It really irritates me when people make dumb decisions and then complain about it and try to blame it on somebody or something else.


Brentwood was established in the 700s AD and was very well developed by the 19th century. You're saying that Heathrow is their fault?

I say this as an avgeek that like planes and only stayed there a bit in a hotel because of thing going wrong at LHR, all that noise was truly jarring.

There are cases where your argument is true, but it really needs to be a case by case issue.
 
M564038
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:00 pm

Again. This is a very pronounced engine resonance tonal dissonance. It is the worst kind of noise. Much more ear-catching than broadband noise that is much louder.
Add another half step and you have the sound of air ride sirens!

N212R asked if there is such a thing as an auditive dissonance.

Duh.

The word dissonance means «Sounds disagreeing» and the sound emitted by these engines revving up, a half step dissonance, would be litterally the prime example.

It is the definition of a dissonance .

No kidding.

But that is not what you meant, was it?

You meant people that percieved it as a dissonance has a cognitive dissonance regarding sound?

You could not be more wrong, as the definition of the word shows you.
 
DFW17L
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:08 pm

Too bad the Concorde isn't around. Have one them bad boys take off with the four Olympus 593's in afterburner mode - that'd change a few minds about the 220. m2c.
 
masi1157
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:20 pm

So you think everybody has to accept the noise from todays aircraft because 30 years ago aircraft were so much noisier? What a nonsense! You seem to have no idea what harm even the lower noise of today does to yoir body.


Gruß, masi1157
499 different segments on 98 airlines to 208 airports in 55 countries
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3037
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:45 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Might be similar to that brief medium-to-high pitched whistle some (all?) A320s create. Since it apparently only exists on arrival, it's probably related to the airframe aerodynamics and not the enigne. Haven't heard the CSeries yet, so I have no idea what it actually sounds like.

Though it could be related to the engine cowlings and exhaust nozzles
 
N212R
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:57 pm

M564038 wrote:
N212R asked if there is such a thing as an auditive dissonance.

Duh.


Never too proud to ask a reductive question. Somewhat easier to spot a supercilious response.

You meant people that percieved it as a dissonance has a cognitive dissonance regarding sound?

You could not be more wrong, as the definition of the word shows you.


Your spelling of perceived and your subject-verb agreement could not be more wrong.

Duh
 
estorilm
Posts: 418
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Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:28 pm

Is the "Orca call" the sound of the flaps lowering creating a gradual pitch shift? I'm sure most of you have heard this. Can go from high pitch to low pitch and you wouldn't even notice a noise till the pitch shift occurs.
 
JoeCanuck
Topic Author
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 am

If this was a constant noise, I might be a bit more sympathetic but since it is a momentary, transitional noise, it seems like more of a whine than whatever is coming from the aircraft.

I wonder how he feels about traffic, horns, dogs and music.
What the...?
 
M564038
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 pm

I am quite sure it would be more wrong if you tried it in my language;-)

N212R wrote:
M564038 wrote:
N212R asked if there is such a thing as an auditive dissonance.

Duh.


Never too proud to ask a reductive question. Somewhat easier to spot a supercilious response.

You meant people that percieved it as a dissonance has a cognitive dissonance regarding sound?

You could not be more wrong, as the definition of the word shows you.


Your spelling of perceived and your subject-verb agreement could not be more wrong.

Duh
 
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crimsonchin
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:21 pm

It's possible some of these people aren't complaining just because they're 'sensitive' (and the noise is irritating) but some of you think they are because you're plane nuts.
 
JoeCanuck
Topic Author
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:40 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
It's possible some of these people aren't complaining just because they're 'sensitive' (and the noise is irritating) but some of you think they are because you're plane nuts.


The CSeries has been flying for years and so far, this is the first I've heard about it being noisy, in fact the opposite has been reported...a lot. Not that I'm in the loop, but if noise was really an issue, I think it's likely we'd have heard a lot more about it by now.
What the...?
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:34 am

mxaxai wrote:
Might be similar to that brief medium-to-high pitched whistle some (all?) A320s create. Since it apparently only exists on arrival, it's probably related to the airframe aerodynamics and not the enigne. Haven't heard the CSeries yet, so I have no idea what it actually sounds like.

Noticed something similar the other night. Bunch of airline employees standing outside the office, when we heard a strange noise coming from an airplane approaching IND. We decided it was likely the gear coming down, as they turned to base.

Something similar, perhaps??

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