JoeCanuck
Topic Author
Posts: 4523
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:03 pm

It seems that even though the A220 is one of the quietest airliners on the planet, it is still not quiet enough for some Zurich residents.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/the-airbus- ... -1.1163235

“It’s even louder than other machines flying in,” said Klaus Stoehlker, spokesman for the Zurich-based Foundation Against Aircraft Noise. “They’ve been describing it as temporary while they make assessments, but for nine months now it hasn’t gone away.”

Zurich Airport has received complaints on its noise hotline of unusual sounds when the A220 passes overhead, a spokeswoman said, adding that it’s working with Swiss to seek a quick solution. The plane -- developed by Bombardier Inc. and now part of the Airbus lineup -- isn’t breaching rules and the sound, which last for a few seconds, hasn’t triggered higher fees that apply to louder jets.


I'm wondering not just how many complaints they've had, but how many people are making those complaints. Swiss apparently isn't breaking any noise regulations...it's the tone of the sounds, which last for a few seconds and have been compared to the mating call of an Orca, (are there a lot of Orcas in Zurich?), not the volume that's the issue.

The guy from the esteemed Foundation Against Aircraft Noise, (whose acronym is ironically FAAN), insists that the 220 is louder than other aircraft. Does he have any data to back that up or has Klaus had his ears calibrated? Maybe he lives in a tent at the end of the runway. Maybe Swiss is smuggling Orcas. Perhaps he's just a sensitive soul.

For some reason, I'm having trouble working up a lot of empathy for this guy.
What the...?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:08 pm

Might be similar to that brief medium-to-high pitched whistle some (all?) A320s create. Since it apparently only exists on arrival, it's probably related to the airframe aerodynamics and not the enigne. Haven't heard the CSeries yet, so I have no idea what it actually sounds like.
 
Airlinepilot129
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:03 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:11 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Might be similar to that brief medium-to-high pitched whistle some (all?) A320s create. Since it apparently only exists on arrival, it's probably related to the airframe aerodynamics and not the enigne. Haven't heard the CSeries yet, so I have no idea what it actually sounds like.


Seeing as some of the newer A320s and the A220/CSeries are both P&W GTFs, I'd imagine they sound similarly.
Still Working Hard, Still Flying Right.

Houston, TX
Ruston, LA
 
Bealine251
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:30 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:15 pm

I seem to recall British Airways had the issue with their A320s and people living under the Heathrow flight path complained about the "Whistle" and they had to have a modification to stop it. When the BA ones fly over my home they do seem quieter that other A320s from non UK airlines.
 
shane
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:38 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Bealine251 wrote:
I seem to recall British Airways had the issue with their A320s and people living under the Heathrow flight path complained about the "Whistle" and they had to have a modification to stop it. When the BA ones fly over my home they do seem quieter that other A320s from non UK airlines.


That whistle never stops in London! Haven't noticed the difference between BA and non...
 
User avatar
m0ssy
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:30 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:31 pm

While I haven't heard this whistle, I have a hard time relating to those who don't enjoy the aircraft noise. I get it, some people just don't, but I lived under the approach/departure path west of Hartsfield for years, and loved every minute of it. :D
Follow me on Instagram! @eug_spotter :airplane:
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 8603
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:32 pm

Sound is a very difficult thing to deal with. It is not just volume, but frequency that matters as well, and very perception based. A low frequency sound at 50 dB will sound different than a high frequency sound at 50 dB, and one (typically the high frequency one) can sound “louder” to the human ears despite being the same dB level. The A220 may be scientifically quieter than other planes (which is merely measuring dB levels), but the sound it makes may be more irritating than that of a louder jet making noise at a different frequency.

I would be so quick to dismiss someone just because the plane is “quieter” than other planes. Frequency matters!
Last edited by Polot on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
shamrock350
Posts: 5095
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:38 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:36 pm

The noise described is usually heard on take off, not landing.

It can be heard at 1:06 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lhXpgaGg1c

It is whale like and usually happens just before spool up but I've never heard it either internally or externally from an A220 on approach or landing.
 
FLDude
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:26 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:46 pm

People move near an airport then complain. All the while forgetting 1) the economic benefits of airports, and 2) that airplanes are much quieter than 30-40 years ago.

NIMBYs all around the world need to get a life. JMO
 
ARNPEK
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:56 pm

I live straight under the glide slope into Geneva airport so we do see a fair deal of A220's. Landings are the loudest and I would say that the A220 is the quietest of the commercial aircraft coming in. I've not had a chance yet to compare with the NEO and the Max that have the same generation engins but the A220 stands out as being a whisper compared to 777's, 330's classic 737's and some of the older business jets. I do think think that FAAN and Klaus needs to get their ears and other senses recalibrated.
 
carlos1979
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:40 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:56 pm

I also live under the GVA approach path and I can tell you that the C-Series are by far the quietest planes on approach to the airport. That said, they can be distinctive as there is often a particular (but short-lived) howl from engines. I don't know what it is, but in my mind at least I associate the sound most with a car-down shifting from a higher gear to a lower gear and accompanying sound the engine can make in such a circumstance.

cheers

C
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 2851
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:10 pm

FLDude wrote:
People move near an airport then complain. All the while forgetting 1) the economic benefits of airports, and 2) that airplanes are much quieter than 30-40 years ago.

NIMBYs all around the world need to get a life. JMO


This indeed. Some people really got nothing better to do than complain.

I remember a story once, I don't know where it was, however there was a guy filing an official complaint about every aircraft that landed. He claimed he had noise disturbance from all these aircraft. He was busted when he filed a complaint about a cancelled flight. Turned out he was just looking at the timetables and at the time an aircraft was scheduled to pass he filed a complaint about it. He didn't hear them at all, otherwise he would have noticed the absence of sound from the cancelled flight.
 
Bluebird191
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:51 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:22 pm

No empathy for these people - they choose to live near an airport and very likely moved to their current address with full knowledge of the airport and associated noise that goes with it. If they don’t want the noise then it’s a simple decision to move where they reside to one less noisy and not near an airport. Some people seem rather ignorant about even simple facts of life.....
 
masi1157
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Bluebird191 wrote:
No empathy for these people - ..

Is that really the only thing you can think of? Aircraft noise is annoying. I myself work in the aircraft noise business since >30 years and I live below the flight path into/out of HAM airport since 20 years. I still hate the noise, especially when sitting in the garden late evening trying to talk. I will not complain, not even when landings are much too late, I knew that before. Still I hate it.

But this discussion was more about a special kind of sound that the A220 seems to produce, that is not captured by the standardized noise monitoring using simple dB(A)-readings. I have no idea what it might be or if it even exists. I never listened to an A220.


Gruß, Matthias
499 different segments on 98 airlines to 208 airports in 55 countries
 
torin
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Bealine251 wrote:
I seem to recall British Airways had the issue with their A320s and people living under the Heathrow flight path complained about the "Whistle" and they had to have a modification to stop it. When the BA ones fly over my home they do seem quieter that other A320s from non UK airlines.


Lufthansa and Air France at least have used a simple device to stop the whistling noise

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/lufthansa-retrofitting-a320-family-with-noise-reducing-technology.html
http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2014/11/lufthansa-retrofitting-a320-family-with-simple-inexpensive-noise-reducing-device-to-stop-the-airbus-whine/
https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/responsibility/climate-environment/active-noise-abatement.html
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:41 pm

Most noise sensitive country on earth. You can’t drive some cars there. Most uptight government ever

WELCOME TO ZURICH. WHAT IS NOT FORBIDDEN IS MANDATORY
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
2175301
Posts: 1275
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:45 pm

It's not uncommon for new model aircraft to make what is a new "unusual" noise. I suspect they will figure it out and minor modifications (as indicated above) may occur to minimize or eliminate it.

I would not automatically dismiss the concerns of the people.

Have a great day,
 
beechnut
Posts: 686
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:55 pm

m0ssy wrote:
While I haven't heard this whistle, I have a hard time relating to those who don't enjoy the aircraft noise. I get it, some people just don't, but I lived under the approach/departure path west of Hartsfield for years, and loved every minute of it. :D


When I was a kid, I lived directly under the approach path of RWY 28 at YUL. In those days (I lived there from 1962 to 1971), I could watch and hear radials, turboprops and pure jets. I would spot DC3s/4s/6s from a variety of airlines, Connies and C46s mostly from Nordair, Viscounts and Vanguards with their distinctive Dart and Tyne turboprops from Air Canada, and DC8s/9s, Boeing 707s, 727s and 737s, and VC10s, just to name a few. Man those were the days! I sure miss the sound of radials in particular.

And as a bonus, the Canadian Pacific, which ran down the street where I lived, powered most of its freight trains and a few of is passenger trains with ALCO 244 and 251 engines with the balance being EMD 567s and Screaming Jimmies (2-stroke GMs on the RDC fleet). And the city of Montreal's bus fleet was made up largely of Canadian Car/Brill buses powered by British AEC diesels, the exact same engines used in may British Rail DMUs (diesel railcars). A real feast for the ears!

Beech
 
User avatar
cathay747
Posts: 903
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:47 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:41 pm

Bluebird191 wrote:
No empathy for these people - they choose to live near an airport and very likely moved to their current address with full knowledge of the airport and associated noise that goes with it. If they don’t want the noise then it’s a simple decision to move where they reside to one less noisy and not near an airport. Some people seem rather ignorant about even simple facts of life.....


Yes indeed, fully agree with you and everybody, zero empathy/sympathy. The ZRH airport has been around how long? I doubt he nor anybody else lived there BEFORE the airport existed, so...don't buy a home near an airport if aircraft noise is going to be a bother to you, regardless of whether it's volume or frequency, it's still noise. Quite simple. When we were looking for a home to buy, I made certain we didn't waste our time looking at any that were abutting a major highway, next to a railway line, and certainly not under the flight paths of an airport (at least not within about a 10mi. radius). NIMBY's indeed.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
PanzerPowner
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:05 pm

NIMBYs have been Sgt. Killjoy for years now. Damn idiots and their blogs about how that A220 flying overhead is ruining their crystal cycles... I truly agree on no mercy for NIMBYs.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5622
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 pm

m0ssy wrote:
While I haven't heard this whistle, I have a hard time relating to those who don't enjoy the aircraft noise. I get it, some people just don't, but I lived under the approach/departure path west of Hartsfield for years, and loved every minute of it. :D


I live under a flight path and do not enjoy aircraft noise. It is getting better with A380s and 787s, but 777 and 747-400 are still pretty loud. No C-Series or A220 fly here.

A320s do sound rather strange at times when they throttle up - but they aren't terribly loud. We also fortunately have a curfew that stops aircraft noise after a particular time.

Also, at some airports, the flight paths can change too, so if you used to have no aircraft overhead, that might change. It might be said that has nothing to do with politics...
 
pdp
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:30 pm

cpd wrote:
A320s do sound rather strange at times when they throttle up - but they aren't terribly loud. We also fortunately have a curfew that stops aircraft noise after a particular time.


They wouldn't happen to be IAE engined would they? They go from a weird wail low-down to a real buzz saw at climb thrust.

I live under the DTY 4P SID for East Midlands, we get A300s going at about FL90 which are noticeable. Anything newer and smaller than an A300 is appreciably quieter. Smaller stuff such as ERJs is almost unnoticeable so unless the A220 has some odd low speed noise I think it's NIMBYism in full swing.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1486
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:32 pm

I've been on the B737 MAX8 a few times and the LEAP1B engines make the same noise on spool up but after that the Leap is one of the quietest engines around.
 
zappomatic
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 11:22 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:39 pm

I work at LCY and can vouch that these aircraft sometimes make a very distinctive sound. Any time I've been in the staff car park (which is just across the water from the eastern end of the runway) and heard an odd noise which has made me look over, it's been an A220. It's a sort of brief low-pitched grunt or whine. Not loud, just unusual.
 
Deltabravo1123
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:32 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:16 pm

Each is distinct, but all whales sound similar to some extent...wonder why they chose to compare it to the innocent "orca." What did the whales ever do to these people?

I'd love to see them bring back 727s, 707s, Concordes, etc. and then ask these people if they still hate these nextgen planes, which mind you are built for the exact purpose of being quiet. If they hate noise, then why even live in a huge city? I have some relatives who live near BWI, and others near ORD, and they say over and over that the cars, and constant beeping, and natural city noise is much more annoying than the planes flying over.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 335
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:30 pm

More and more the world is generationnaly become nothing more than rambling complainers looking for any reason to the next to complain. Mostly people with too much time on they’re hands and addicted to posting long ranting reviews on apps like Yelp.

Back when society had thicker skin, common sense, mental stability and more important things to worry about the skies were filled with screaming loud smoky 707’s, 727’s, DC-8’s and many more models and people just went about they’re business and it was commonplace. Here’s an idea. Let’s move by an airport, then be a noise sensitive whiner. NIMBYs suck.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
KentB27
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:31 pm

Don't live near an airport if noise is an issue for you. People who complain about living in noisy environments should have done more research on that area before they moved there. It really irritates me when people make dumb decisions and then complain about it and try to blame it on somebody or something else.
 
teneriffe77
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:00 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:39 pm

I've found that as far as aircraft noise goes the weather is big factor. For example I live not far from SYR and I've noticed that on cloudy days that planes sound 2x as loud as they do on sunny days. I suspect that this has to do w/ the moisture particles acting like amplifier to the sound waves. How this ties into this discussion is that if the weather is bad on the days when there is the highest complaints then this might have something to do w/ it
 
Jalap
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:02 am

cathay747 wrote:
Yes indeed, fully agree with you and everybody, zero empathy/sympathy.

Well, I grew up under the flight path of BRU and absolutely loved the sound of the overflying aircraft. And the louder, the better, because the loud ones usually were the 747's, DC10's, Il86's, the ones I wanted to see. It's been over 20 years since I moved away and I still miss the sound. Whenever I visit my parents, who still live there, I hope the correct runways are in use so planes fly overhead. That aircraft noise was an important part of my childhood.

With this experience, I can perfectly relate to people who live with aircraft noise, especially those that didn' grow up with it. Surely it takes a lot of time to get really used to it. Then when you get used to "typical aircraft sound" and a new type comes around which makes a very particular sound you're not used to, it will stand out. And it will again take time to get used to it. Yes, those people knew where they were going to live and that aircraft noise was going to be part of their lives. But that doesn't mean they have no right to address the issues they have with it.

I haven't seen many A220's overflying my parents' house, I guess the issue isn't with the type isn't particularly audible when it's on approach. Otherwise I'm quite sure I would have noticed them better. But I do remember when A320's were first appearing in BRU and that particular howling sound they made. Probably not so loud in DB(A)'s, but still very distinctive. Something one is not used to. Enjoyable for me, most likely irritating for others.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:10 am

nine4nine wrote:
More and more the world is generationnaly become nothing more than rambling complainers looking for any reason to the next to complain. Mostly people with too much time on they’re hands and addicted to posting long ranting reviews on apps like Yelp.

Back when society had thicker skin, common sense, mental stability and more important things to worry about the skies were filled with screaming loud smoky 707’s, 727’s, DC-8’s and many more models and people just went about they’re business and it was commonplace. Here’s an idea. Let’s move by an airport, then be a noise sensitive whiner. NIMBYs suck.

And lets not forget the good old BAC-111. On some days you could here the crackle sound like the space shuttle taking off. This may seen crazy but I miss it.
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:26 am

nine4nine wrote:
More and more the world is generationnaly become nothing more than rambling complainers looking for any reason to the next to complain. Mostly people with too much time on they’re hands and addicted to posting long ranting reviews on apps like Yelp.

Back when society had thicker skin, common sense, mental stability and more important things to worry about the skies were filled with screaming loud smoky 707’s, 727’s, DC-8’s and many more models and people just went about they’re business and it was commonplace. Here’s an idea. Let’s move by an airport, then be a noise sensitive whiner. NIMBYs suck.


Hahaha, so true!
You forgot 880's! Even worse, if near an AFB, -135's and -52's with no organ-pipes! They shook the earth.
A C-46 loaded with cargo did not whisper overhead on departure either, especially at 3 am! Neither did any of the other piston powered windmills, back in the day.
Most airports are so long-established, it does make one wonder why people would move into the neighborhood and then gripe about the noise! Duh!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
User avatar
ClipperYankee
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:01 am

teneriffe77 wrote:
I've found that as far as aircraft noise goes the weather is big factor. For example I live not far from SYR and I've noticed that on cloudy days that planes sound 2x as loud as they do on sunny days. I suspect that this has to do w/ the moisture particles acting like amplifier to the sound waves. How this ties into this discussion is that if the weather is bad on the days when there is the highest complaints then this might have something to do w/ it


Very true. I noticed when I spent time in Anchorage that the C-130s at Elmendorf AFB sounded like they were a lot closer when it was overcast. The F-15s were loud at all times, but a great kind of loud.
707/717/727/737-100,200,300,400,500,700,800/747-200,300,400/757-200,300/767-300,400
772/788&9/DC3/DC6/DC8/DC9/DC10/MD80s/L1011/A300/A319,320,321/A332&3/A343/A359/A388/
BAE146/ATP/ATR42/DHC2,3,7,8/S340B/CRJ200,700,900/E140,145,175,190/F70,100/B1900
 
EBJ68
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:12 am

Listening to the video at 1:06. the sound reminded me of the noise you hear when a Lockheed Tristar is starting engines. Very similar. The noise lasted until the engine reached idel rpm then disappeared.
 
Samrnpage
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:02 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:04 am

The A220 is one of the quietest planes I know, only the 2 seconds at spool noise it make a any form of noise. I guess these residents are deaf when swiss A330s go overhead?
 
masi1157
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:11 am

What exactly does it help me to know that aircraft were so much noisier in the 70s or 80s? I heard them in the 70s and 80s, yes they were noisier, but they still are much too noisy. And they are many many more now.

I remember one very late flight every night when I was a kid ("the mail flight from Berlin" my father said), but there was almost nothing else. Today I hear dozens of flights coming in between 22:30 and 23:30 (despite the curfew at 23:00) and taking off from 6:00 onwards. Each of them may be a lot quieter than the "mail flight" in those days, but together they annoy me much more.


Gruß, Matthias
499 different segments on 98 airlines to 208 airports in 55 countries
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5622
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:13 am

pdp wrote:
cpd wrote:
A320s do sound rather strange at times when they throttle up - but they aren't terribly loud. We also fortunately have a curfew that stops aircraft noise after a particular time.


They wouldn't happen to be IAE engined would they? They go from a weird wail low-down to a real buzz saw at climb thrust.

I live under the DTY 4P SID for East Midlands, we get A300s going at about FL90 which are noticeable. Anything newer and smaller than an A300 is appreciably quieter. Smaller stuff such as ERJs is almost unnoticeable so unless the A220 has some odd low speed noise I think it's NIMBYism in full swing.


I'm not sure, it is whatever Jetstar uses on their A320s.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 335
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:47 am

ImperialEagle wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
More and more the world is generationnaly become nothing more than rambling complainers looking for any reason to the next to complain. Mostly people with too much time on they’re hands and addicted to posting long ranting reviews on apps like Yelp.

Back when society had thicker skin, common sense, mental stability and more important things to worry about the skies were filled with screaming loud smoky 707’s, 727’s, DC-8’s and many more models and people just went about they’re business and it was commonplace. Here’s an idea. Let’s move by an airport, then be a noise sensitive whiner. NIMBYs suck.





Hahaha, so true!
You forgot 880's! Even worse, if near an AFB, -135's and -52's with no organ-pipes! They shook the earth.
A C-46 loaded with cargo did not whisper overhead on departure either, especially at 3 am! Neither did any of the other piston powered windmills, back in the day.
Most airports are so long-established, it does make one wonder why people would move into the neighborhood and then gripe about the noise! Duh!




Thanks for sharing that. I actually miss those old roaring engines from those eras.


I grew up a few blocks on a hill overlooking BUR. As a child in the early 80’s I would spend the days and nights watching aircraft movements. When Lockheed was in production during the skunk works era there was a nightly C5 that would fly loads of materials and parts up to PMD. Departure was typically between 12-1am and I remember the loud droning sound of the C5 engines. My pre-school was on Victory Blvd just short of 15/33 and there were 722,732,DC9, 762, and occasional L10-11 test flights from PMD and other misc aircraft that would tear out of there. Nobody complained. The old timer residents weren’t bothered by the noise as most of The Burbank area residents were either employed by Lockheed or other aviation companies. PAC (Pacific Aeromotive Corp had an underground engine test site testing both civilian and military engines. You could still hear the full power test through the exhaust chimney that was also on site at BUR. When Lockheed closed shop at BUR and moved on and all the other aerospace companies did as well, so did most of the resident employees. That ushered in the NIMBYS. Buying cheap housing properties around the airport then raising complaint about noise,pollution, etc....
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
JoeCanuck
Topic Author
Posts: 4523
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:06 am

I grew up in the Canadian Arctic. The airport was 8 miles, (12km), from town. In the -30's and 40's of winter, the 732's and 727's sounded like they were in the next room when they blasted off.

Awesome.
What the...?
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:56 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
The guy from the esteemed Foundation Against Aircraft Noise, (whose acronym is ironically FAAN), insists that the 220 is louder than other aircraft.

Sorry, I don't get the irony. Is there a double meaning?
 
PanzerPowner
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:06 am

It is kind of ironic considering the front bit is like a fan to some people.
MartijnNL wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
The guy from the esteemed Foundation Against Aircraft Noise, (whose acronym is ironically FAAN), insists that the 220 is louder than other aircraft.

Sorry, I don't get the irony. Is there a double meaning?


Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:50 am

Bluebird191 wrote:
No empathy for these people (...). If they don’t want the noise then it’s a simple decision to move where they reside to one less noisy and not near an airport.

That's a rather one-sided approach. You don't know if it's a simple decision for people to move out. It might be very difficult to sell a house close to an airport.

New aircraft are brought into airline fleets with the promise of less noise. When it turns out those machines actually make more noise at certain times, that promise is broken. I fully understand people complaining (= asking questions) about that.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:06 am

nine4nine wrote:
Back when society had thicker skin, common sense, mental stability and more important things to worry about the skies were filled with screaming loud smoky 707’s, 727’s, DC-8’s and many more models and people just went about they’re business and it was commonplace.

Maybe where you live, but that certainly isn't true everywhere. In the late sixties, almost fifty years ago, protests began against the increasing noise disturbance of Amsterdam Airport Schiphol. During the planning of a new runway, insufficient consideration was given to the proximity of the population and the new, heavier aircraft, which produced much more noise.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 7459
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:55 am

Probably like the A320 FOPP vent opening whine. That was also annoying.
 
M564038
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:19 am

As the video posted above shows, it has got a severe engine resonance with a tonal quality and an almost howling timbre. It appears as un-synced between the engines so the interval in the above case is a semi-tone, which might be typical, it is a severly disharmonic cluster. The worst imaginable to be exact.

I can see why people not deeply in love with aircraft find that infuriating.

Seeing as it took Airbus about 30 years to solve the fuel-vent howl, even if the glaringly obvious solution was a $1 static protrution, I can understand why people feel the need to shout from the outset. There are still A320s out there without the modification! Most, infact! It is a scandal that Airbus hasn’t enforced that mod, just because it doesn’t trigger any of the very vague noise regs.

The A320neo and the 220 both have rather large engines and a distinct engine resonance howl during transitions in spooling up or down. They almost remind me of my childhood growing up next to a F-104 station. I happen to personally love such sounds, but for Airbus to pretend this problem doesn’t exist or isn’t measureable is simply not correct. Noise measurement is just too complex for the regulations to encompass every variation of noise that really shouldn’t be allowed, so there are lots of little gaps for the Oems to hide in.

There are a lot of people on this thread expressing hostility towards other human beings based on second and third hand information lacking in precision and science. knowledge both about the current situation and how noise works seems to be of no importance.
 
FatCat
Posts: 574
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:36 am

I live west of FLR runway and SID BALUK5A from runway 23 departures pass 5 / 7 miles south of my house, banking N @ about 4500 ft
The A220-100 (Swiss to Zurich) is among the quietest plane, together with E175 / E190s and Alitalia's A319s (although AZ departures to FCO use MAREL6A most of times).
Vueling's A319 is more noisy, maybe some of theirs have IAE V2500 engines?
Last time I was on a Lufthansa A321 with V2500 engines I was surprised of the noise during take off, metallic and high pitched.
May my post not hurt your feelings
 
M564038
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:40 am

FatCat wrote:
I live west of FLR runway and SID BALUK5A from runway 23 departures pass 5 / 7 miles south of my house, banking N @ about 4500 ft
The A220-100 (Swiss to Zurich) is among the quietest plane, together with E175 / E190s and Alitalia's A319s (although AZ departures to FCO use MAREL6A most of times).
Vueling's A319 is more noisy, maybe some of theirs have IAE V2500 engines?
Last time I was on a Lufthansa A321 with V2500 engines I was surprised of the noise during take off, metallic and high pitched.


But you see, this is far to anecdotal. Without any measurement, or knowledge to help in analysis. What were the wind directions, speeds, exact altitudes, temperatures, flaps settings, cost index settings, even passenger numbers and freight load?

Engine mamufacturer of the A320-series seems to be the least factor in all of this.
 
FatCat
Posts: 574
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 am

M564038 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I live west of FLR runway and SID BALUK5A from runway 23 departures pass 5 / 7 miles south of my house, banking N @ about 4500 ft
The A220-100 (Swiss to Zurich) is among the quietest plane, together with E175 / E190s and Alitalia's A319s (although AZ departures to FCO use MAREL6A most of times).
Vueling's A319 is more noisy, maybe some of theirs have IAE V2500 engines?
Last time I was on a Lufthansa A321 with V2500 engines I was surprised of the noise during take off, metallic and high pitched.


But you see, this is far to anecdotal. Without any measurement, or knowledge to help in analysis. What were the wind directions, speeds, exact altitudes, temperatures, flaps settings, cost index settings, even passenger numbers and freight load?

Engine mamufacturer of the A320-series seems to be the least factor in all of this.

I agree.
In fact, much depends on weather and wind, also on season.
Airports and populated areas were never good friends.
Everyone wants an airport near the city, but no one wants a city near an airport.
May my post not hurt your feelings
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2075
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:15 am

Wow, I love the howl of the A220, it kind of reminds me of the famous Vulcan growl?..

No sympathy for NIMBYs who move close to an airport and then complain. ZRH has there for what, 80 years?
 
User avatar
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:33 am

I'd love to have my own Su-20 at hand. I'd do Mach 0.95 nap-of-the-earth with it with full afterburner on over houses of those in Zurich, who complain about 30 seconds of A220s "whistle". They'd learn their lesson right then....

Them and all other NIMBYs all over the world.
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
If it's a Boeing, I'm not going.
 
FlyingAY
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Re: A220, (CSeries), Too Noisy for Zurich

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:03 am

FLDude wrote:
People move near an airport then complain. All the while forgetting 1) the economic benefits of airports, and 2) that airplanes are much quieter than 30-40 years ago.

NIMBYs all around the world need to get a life. JMO


Without these NIMBYs your point number 2 wouldn't be true.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos