Tucker1
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:52 am

Too many 'elitists' here. There's no way a woman couldn't be as qualified as a man to be a pilot. Some need to get off their high horses and accept that fact. It isn't a gender specific career as some other careers could be perceived.
 
ual763
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:14 am

Tucker1 wrote:
Too many 'elitists' here. There's no way a woman couldn't be as qualified as a man to be a pilot. Some need to get off their high horses and accept that fact. It isn't a gender specific career as some other careers could be perceived.


Nobody is saying women aren’t good pilots. What we ARE saying is that women shouldn’t be given PREFERENTIAL treatment on applications just for the fact that they are women.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:16 am

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:

I think we need to stop with leftist social engineering and forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The barrier to entry is already pretty low between men and women. Companies are not hiring on skill alone, they are hiring on skill and other political factors.

There is a small crowd of activists that want to see 50% plus women in suspisciously only high paying jobs without regard to suitability. They would have military units that are 100% women nevermind the Marines did a study and found a 90%+ loss rate compared to all male units. There's a reason why there are men's sports and women's sports. You will notice that they will never push 50%+ women in dirty jobs like crab fishing, garbage collector, sewer cleaners, construction, roofing, etc. it's always the easy jobs like CEO. True equality sucks because women would quickly find out that men have always gotten the shorter end of the stick.., more men die at work, more men die in war, more men get raped, more men get testicular cancer than women get breast cancer, men die at a younger age, and men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines.

Those pushing these "equality of outcome" agendas are simply sexist.


I think we need to stop with the Conservative ideas of how the world should just stop developing and freeze because it doesn't fit into your dated ideology. There is clearly a valid reason for Encouraging women to become pilots. It's called pilot shortages. The fact that many airlines have to slowed down or even stop their expansion because of the lack of qualified pilots should have been a dead giveaway. Encouraging more people wouldn't hurt anybody. Looking at the situation now, encouraging women to become a pilot wouldn't stop airlines from hiring male pilots since the shortages situation is actually happening.

These airlines around the world want more female to try to become a pilot because of the shortages, not because of Ideology, so please, stop making these stupid assumptions.

More men die at work and in a war because for thousands of years women are not allowed to actually have a job or go to war because they are seen as baby maker. They're not allowed to go to war because Men can't get pregnant not because Men treasure women more than Men, this could be proven by how only men can carry family last name for starter.
As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc.
Encouraging women to enter industries dominated by men would help women to enter jobs with higher risk like their male counterparts did, like being in a military, cops, firefighters, electricians, etc.
It means that it would help lower the percentages of men who died in their work don't you think?

Also, I don't see how which gender get more cancer (not just breast cancer or testicular cancer, how about ovarian cancer?) would make it better or easier than the other gender. How about heart attack? how about stroke? how about tumor?
These things doesn't make sense at all when you try to applied it to the female pilots arguments.

And I need Citation on these claims: "more men get raped, men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines."


You can encourage women all you want, just don't force them when they choose to be housewives and mothers. I'm a STEM person myself and have observed firsthand that women largely make the choice you don't want, even when they get a free ride in STEM. There have been several programs at many universities where women are given incredible privileges just to enroll vs. none given to men. Yet, women still go to liberal arts as a statistical majority. Men and women are scientifically not the same. If women wanted to do those kinds of jobs, they wouldn't need to be "encouraged". Did you ever consider that?

You can call yourself a modern person but change for the sake of change is not a recipe for making the most intelligent decision. Should we destroy the family unit because it is traditional? This is a grand social experiment and it's not really working out well for women. Have you ever seen any of the studies done where women rate their happiness? It's funny how self proclaimed modern people can't accomplish your social engineering without being sexist in your ideology.

Also, "As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc."... then why is there such an asymmetric push for women to get into easier/higher paying jobs vs. traditional dirty jobs? I don't see any free handouts for women to become trash collectors, sewer cleaners, crab fishermen, home construction laborers, welders, roofers, electricians, foundry workers, battery recycling technicians, etc. We don't need more progressive politics in the workforce. We need workers period. If women want to apply, let them. Don't brainwash them pro or against.

As for pilot shortages. There is no such thing. I'm in the business and I know all the real numbers far better than most anyone here. There is only a shortage of people willing to work for substandard wages. You could solve the regional airline pilot problem by paying at least $75k starting instead of $17k starting. Also, they could make VAST improvements in quality of life. Right now, you spend well over 3/4 of your life away from home. And, it's not just being at work for 8 hrs/day.. it's 24 hrs per day being away from home. Being an airline pilot is a horrible job until you get seniority at a major airline. No one in their right mind would ever enter the job if they could make more money at Home Depot while being home at night. Pilots need the education of a STEM background in order to truly be competent and no one with a STEM background will work at grossly substandard wages. It has NOTHING to do with gender.

We need to ONLY look at outcome when hiring. It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. I find it highly sexist and offensive that airlines go fill HR quotas at places like Women in Aviation career fairs rather than avoiding that kind of thing and only looking at their metrics blindly. HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality.

I've been an instructor and supervisor to many men and women. I treat them no differently. Let each individual stand on their own merits rather than pushing someone just because they are a woman.


Encouraging and forcing are 2 different things. You are making assumptions that Airlines are Forcing women to become pilots. If they wanted to become mothers or stay home wife, do that, but I also doesn't mind if Men became stay home dad.

You are making assumptions with no actual proofs regarding your claim, it's called bias, not facts. I was born and grow up in Asia. You don't know how F'up the social structure here. To hear Men, especially the one come from Modern Western countries (not you I supposed?) and said "Oh women have it easy because ALL of them got priority" just proof how stupid people are in 2018.
Clearly education about Facts is lacking in your school. But I'm not surprise when these kind of assumptions come from many people who are "Conservatives". Because most of them time, they don't care about the actual world.
The US/West Europe and Asia are way different. Sexism is a normal as breathing oxygen for humans.

It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. But you are the one who want to talk about the gender of the pilots, not me. Stop with your "I'm not sexist but she is a female who should be a mother" bias.

"HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality."
It's called stopping special treatment for (assuming you're from the US or Europe) White Americans who have been discriminating minorities.
With due respect, few decades ago, many minorities are not hireable because of their skin color. Not because of their skills.

It meant that the Colour restrictions you use back in the day is gone. Not Special treatment for minorities or women.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:18 am

- double post -
Last edited by ewt340 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:22 am

sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.


Well yeah, Flight attendants. They also work hard on the same shift and get paid way less than pilots. It's proved that any gender could withstand the harsh work environment with way lower wages.
May I say many FA have to work harder because they actually have to serve foods and drinks, cooking, cleaning the plane?
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:28 am

ual763 wrote:
Tucker1 wrote:
Too many 'elitists' here. There's no way a woman couldn't be as qualified as a man to be a pilot. Some need to get off their high horses and accept that fact. It isn't a gender specific career as some other careers could be perceived.


Nobody is saying women aren’t good pilots. What we ARE saying is that women shouldn’t be given PREFERENTIAL treatment on applications just for the fact that they are women.


Nobody giving them PREFERENTIAL treatment, especially when they are pilot shortages in the industry.....
 
User avatar
lebda
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:45 am

Good Lord, I'm going to have to say it again: this is exactly why women feel discouraged from becoming pilots. I don't know what world you're living in, but women certainly do not get preferential treatment in hiring when it comes to applying for airlines.

Lemme put it this way, when people come up to me, they don't talk to me about the specifics of flight or about the latest aircraft, or anything that they'd normally have a conversation about. They look at me and say something along the lines of "oh, female pilots are rare, flying is hard", like that's all you're capable of talking about. And that's at best. Worst case scenario, somebody will have a meltdown about why you're everything that's wrong with the world, but thankfully I haven't gotten that reaction yet.

Of course not everyone is like this, I have had meaningful discussions with other people interested in aviation before without mention of what's in my pants. But it's not uncommon to get annoying comments.

[edited to elaborate and also because i apparently can't spell]
Last edited by lebda on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
bravoindia
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:46 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

If anything it has already gone too far. The southwest crash at LGA was a female captain hired with substandard experience. It's not a recipe for success.

Why aren't men recruited for female dominated jobs? Nursing, teaching? The majority of medical schools grads are already female..



Amen.
 
amadorE175
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:54 am

I always love when people discuss the past like it was a perfectly meritocratic time.
 
Max Q
Posts: 6819
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:18 am

The US based major airline I’m employed with has not allowed circling approaches for decades
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:42 am

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

I think we need to stop with the Conservative ideas of how the world should just stop developing and freeze because it doesn't fit into your dated ideology. There is clearly a valid reason for Encouraging women to become pilots. It's called pilot shortages. The fact that many airlines have to slowed down or even stop their expansion because of the lack of qualified pilots should have been a dead giveaway. Encouraging more people wouldn't hurt anybody. Looking at the situation now, encouraging women to become a pilot wouldn't stop airlines from hiring male pilots since the shortages situation is actually happening.

These airlines around the world want more female to try to become a pilot because of the shortages, not because of Ideology, so please, stop making these stupid assumptions.

More men die at work and in a war because for thousands of years women are not allowed to actually have a job or go to war because they are seen as baby maker. They're not allowed to go to war because Men can't get pregnant not because Men treasure women more than Men, this could be proven by how only men can carry family last name for starter.
As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc.
Encouraging women to enter industries dominated by men would help women to enter jobs with higher risk like their male counterparts did, like being in a military, cops, firefighters, electricians, etc.
It means that it would help lower the percentages of men who died in their work don't you think?

Also, I don't see how which gender get more cancer (not just breast cancer or testicular cancer, how about ovarian cancer?) would make it better or easier than the other gender. How about heart attack? how about stroke? how about tumor?
These things doesn't make sense at all when you try to applied it to the female pilots arguments.

And I need Citation on these claims: "more men get raped, men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines."


You can encourage women all you want, just don't force them when they choose to be housewives and mothers. I'm a STEM person myself and have observed firsthand that women largely make the choice you don't want, even when they get a free ride in STEM. There have been several programs at many universities where women are given incredible privileges just to enroll vs. none given to men. Yet, women still go to liberal arts as a statistical majority. Men and women are scientifically not the same. If women wanted to do those kinds of jobs, they wouldn't need to be "encouraged". Did you ever consider that?

You can call yourself a modern person but change for the sake of change is not a recipe for making the most intelligent decision. Should we destroy the family unit because it is traditional? This is a grand social experiment and it's not really working out well for women. Have you ever seen any of the studies done where women rate their happiness? It's funny how self proclaimed modern people can't accomplish your social engineering without being sexist in your ideology.

Also, "As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc."... then why is there such an asymmetric push for women to get into easier/higher paying jobs vs. traditional dirty jobs? I don't see any free handouts for women to become trash collectors, sewer cleaners, crab fishermen, home construction laborers, welders, roofers, electricians, foundry workers, battery recycling technicians, etc. We don't need more progressive politics in the workforce. We need workers period. If women want to apply, let them. Don't brainwash them pro or against.

As for pilot shortages. There is no such thing. I'm in the business and I know all the real numbers far better than most anyone here. There is only a shortage of people willing to work for substandard wages. You could solve the regional airline pilot problem by paying at least $75k starting instead of $17k starting. Also, they could make VAST improvements in quality of life. Right now, you spend well over 3/4 of your life away from home. And, it's not just being at work for 8 hrs/day.. it's 24 hrs per day being away from home. Being an airline pilot is a horrible job until you get seniority at a major airline. No one in their right mind would ever enter the job if they could make more money at Home Depot while being home at night. Pilots need the education of a STEM background in order to truly be competent and no one with a STEM background will work at grossly substandard wages. It has NOTHING to do with gender.

We need to ONLY look at outcome when hiring. It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. I find it highly sexist and offensive that airlines go fill HR quotas at places like Women in Aviation career fairs rather than avoiding that kind of thing and only looking at their metrics blindly. HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality.

I've been an instructor and supervisor to many men and women. I treat them no differently. Let each individual stand on their own merits rather than pushing someone just because they are a woman.


Encouraging and forcing are 2 different things. You are making assumptions that Airlines are Forcing women to become pilots. If they wanted to become mothers or stay home wife, do that, but I also doesn't mind if Men became stay home dad.

You are making assumptions with no actual proofs regarding your claim, it's called bias, not facts. I was born and grow up in Asia. You don't know how F'up the social structure here. To hear Men, especially the one come from Modern Western countries (not you I supposed?) and said "Oh women have it easy because ALL of them got priority" just proof how stupid people are in 2018.
Clearly education about Facts is lacking in your school. But I'm not surprise when these kind of assumptions come from many people who are "Conservatives". Because most of them time, they don't care about the actual world.
The US/West Europe and Asia are way different. Sexism is a normal as breathing oxygen for humans.

It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. But you are the one who want to talk about the gender of the pilots, not me. Stop with your "I'm not sexist but she is a female who should be a mother" bias.

"HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality."
It's called stopping special treatment for (assuming you're from the US or Europe) White Americans who have been discriminating minorities.
With due respect, few decades ago, many minorities are not hireable because of their skin color. Not because of their skills.

It meant that the Colour restrictions you use back in the day is gone. Not Special treatment for minorities or women.



The airlines are institutionalizing discrimination by promoting one gender over another. You keep saying ideas are stupid but you consistently demonstrate your argument to be a purely emotional one, which is characteristic of people who think they are educated but are instead indoctrinated. Also, to put it simply, you are rationalizing sexism because it works for your belief system. We don't need a new form of discrimination... no special treatments. Your ideaology is sexist, you just don't want to admit it. Also, I wouldn't blindly attack conservatives without doing deep analysis on the matter. You know there's a reason that immature college kids love leftism but when they grow up, get jobs, and become responsible, they adopt conservative principles.

Let women be whatever they want to be. Don't make them out to be losers because they don't want to become pilots. I know several women who left aviation after they wanted a different focus in their lives. They always told me about the shame they were made to feel by some women with agendas. It's ok if most girls don't want to play war or build model airplanes. Maybe most of them like dressing up like a princess. There is nothing wrong with that and your notions of social engineering are harming generations of girls who just want to be left alone from your relativistic politics.
Last edited by greendot on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:47 am

ewt340 wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.


Well yeah, Flight attendants. They also work hard on the same shift and get paid way less than pilots. It's proved that any gender could withstand the harsh work environment with way lower wages.
May I say many FA have to work harder because they actually have to serve foods and drinks, cooking, cleaning the plane?



How do you define hard?

Which job is the hardest, in your opinion?
  • pilot
  • flight attendant
  • home construction
  • nuclear scientist
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:50 am

amadorE175 wrote:
I always love when people discuss the past like it was a perfectly meritocratic time.


The future is usually an improvement.

However, many of these ideas of social justice are regressive because they are simply racism and sexism rationalized by equality of outcome. It's the false idea that the ends justify the means.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:58 am

lebda wrote:
Good Lord, I'm going to have to say it again: this is exactly why women feel discouraged from becoming pilots. I don't know what world you're living in, but women certainly do not get preferential treatment in hiring when it comes to applying for airlines.

Lemme put it this way, when people come up to me, they don't talk to me about the specifics of flight or about the latest aircraft, or anything that they'd normally have a conversation about. They look at me and say something along the lines of "oh, female pilots are rare, flying is hard", like that's all you're capable of talking about. And that's at best. Worst case scenario, somebody will have a meltdown about why you're everything that's wrong with the world, but thankfully I haven't gotten that reaction yet.

Of course not everyone is like this, I have had meaningful discussions with other people interested in aviation before without mention of what's in my pants. But it's not uncommon to get annoying comments.

[edited to elaborate and also because i apparently can't spell]


And a certain airline didn't hire almost a dozen women at WIA despite there being thousands of pilots with substantially more experience than a 2nd year RJ FO... yeah... that sure is one heck of random sample!
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:01 pm

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:

You can encourage women all you want, just don't force them when they choose to be housewives and mothers. I'm a STEM person myself and have observed firsthand that women largely make the choice you don't want, even when they get a free ride in STEM. There have been several programs at many universities where women are given incredible privileges just to enroll vs. none given to men. Yet, women still go to liberal arts as a statistical majority. Men and women are scientifically not the same. If women wanted to do those kinds of jobs, they wouldn't need to be "encouraged". Did you ever consider that?

You can call yourself a modern person but change for the sake of change is not a recipe for making the most intelligent decision. Should we destroy the family unit because it is traditional? This is a grand social experiment and it's not really working out well for women. Have you ever seen any of the studies done where women rate their happiness? It's funny how self proclaimed modern people can't accomplish your social engineering without being sexist in your ideology.

Also, "As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc."... then why is there such an asymmetric push for women to get into easier/higher paying jobs vs. traditional dirty jobs? I don't see any free handouts for women to become trash collectors, sewer cleaners, crab fishermen, home construction laborers, welders, roofers, electricians, foundry workers, battery recycling technicians, etc. We don't need more progressive politics in the workforce. We need workers period. If women want to apply, let them. Don't brainwash them pro or against.

As for pilot shortages. There is no such thing. I'm in the business and I know all the real numbers far better than most anyone here. There is only a shortage of people willing to work for substandard wages. You could solve the regional airline pilot problem by paying at least $75k starting instead of $17k starting. Also, they could make VAST improvements in quality of life. Right now, you spend well over 3/4 of your life away from home. And, it's not just being at work for 8 hrs/day.. it's 24 hrs per day being away from home. Being an airline pilot is a horrible job until you get seniority at a major airline. No one in their right mind would ever enter the job if they could make more money at Home Depot while being home at night. Pilots need the education of a STEM background in order to truly be competent and no one with a STEM background will work at grossly substandard wages. It has NOTHING to do with gender.

We need to ONLY look at outcome when hiring. It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. I find it highly sexist and offensive that airlines go fill HR quotas at places like Women in Aviation career fairs rather than avoiding that kind of thing and only looking at their metrics blindly. HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality.

I've been an instructor and supervisor to many men and women. I treat them no differently. Let each individual stand on their own merits rather than pushing someone just because they are a woman.


Encouraging and forcing are 2 different things. You are making assumptions that Airlines are Forcing women to become pilots. If they wanted to become mothers or stay home wife, do that, but I also doesn't mind if Men became stay home dad.

You are making assumptions with no actual proofs regarding your claim, it's called bias, not facts. I was born and grow up in Asia. You don't know how F'up the social structure here. To hear Men, especially the one come from Modern Western countries (not you I supposed?) and said "Oh women have it easy because ALL of them got priority" just proof how stupid people are in 2018.
Clearly education about Facts is lacking in your school. But I'm not surprise when these kind of assumptions come from many people who are "Conservatives". Because most of them time, they don't care about the actual world.
The US/West Europe and Asia are way different. Sexism is a normal as breathing oxygen for humans.

It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. But you are the one who want to talk about the gender of the pilots, not me. Stop with your "I'm not sexist but she is a female who should be a mother" bias.

"HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality."
It's called stopping special treatment for (assuming you're from the US or Europe) White Americans who have been discriminating minorities.
With due respect, few decades ago, many minorities are not hireable because of their skin color. Not because of their skills.

It meant that the Colour restrictions you use back in the day is gone. Not Special treatment for minorities or women.



The airlines are institutionalizing discrimination by promoting one gender over another. You keep saying ideas are stupid but you consistently demonstrate your argument to be a purely emotional one, which is characteristic of people who think they are educated but are instead indoctrinated. Also, to put it simply, you are rationalizing sexism because it works for your belief system. We don't need a new form of discrimination... no special treatments. Your ideaology is sexist, you just don't want to admit it. Also, I wouldn't blindly attack conservatives without doing deep analysis on the matter. You know there's a reason that immature college kids love leftism but when they grow up, get jobs, and become responsible, they adopt conservative principles.

Let women be whatever they want to be. Don't make them out to be losers because they don't want to become pilots. I know several women who left aviation after they wanted a different focus in their lives. They always told me about the shame they were made to feel by some women with agendas. It's ok if most girls don't want to play war or build model airplanes. Maybe most of them like dressing up like a princess. There is nothing wrong with that and your notions of social engineering are harming generations of girls who just want to be left alone from your relativistic politics.


Here you go people. Encouraging women to become Pilots is Sexist. You heard it from Greendot.
I don't understand how people could be this stupid..... smh.

Anyway, we are Encouraging women to become pilots because we already encourage men to become one. We don't DISCOURAGE men or DISCRIMINATING men from becoming pilots. Please learn the difference.
Last edited by ewt340 on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:03 pm

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.


Well yeah, Flight attendants. They also work hard on the same shift and get paid way less than pilots. It's proved that any gender could withstand the harsh work environment with way lower wages.
May I say many FA have to work harder because they actually have to serve foods and drinks, cooking, cleaning the plane?



How do you define hard?

Which job is the hardest, in your opinion?
  • pilot
  • flight attendant
  • home construction
  • nuclear scientist


Probably either 14 year olds who work in farm fields because their parents got sick, the mother of 3 who work in one of these factories in China or Vietnam, or maybe military personnel. But hey, being Flight attendant is like being a billionaire these days. They don't even have to work.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:15 pm

lebda wrote:
Good Lord, I'm going to have to say it again: this is exactly why women feel discouraged from becoming pilots. I don't know what world you're living in, but women certainly do not get preferential treatment in hiring when it comes to applying for airlines.

Lemme put it this way, when people come up to me, they don't talk to me about the specifics of flight or about the latest aircraft, or anything that they'd normally have a conversation about. They look at me and say something along the lines of "oh, female pilots are rare, flying is hard", like that's all you're capable of talking about. And that's at best. Worst case scenario, somebody will have a meltdown about why you're everything that's wrong with the world, but thankfully I haven't gotten that reaction yet.

Of course not everyone is like this, I have had meaningful discussions with other people interested in aviation before without mention of what's in my pants. But it's not uncommon to get annoying comments.

[edited to elaborate and also because i apparently can't spell]


I don't know what rock you have been under but companies most certainly do give preferential treatment in their hiring of minorities and airlines are no different. United Airlines was ordered by EEOC consent decree to favor African American pilots in their hiring process and women white or otherwise also fell into this category. My cousin was a USCG C-130 commander and Coast Guard Academy graduate flying search and rescue missions in Alaska and in the mid 90's when he applied to United he wasn't even offered an interview but during that same time period they hired a female Embry Riddle grad with 300 hrs total time and no turbine time and put her in a DC-10 so don't say women do not get preferential treatment because they most certainly do.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:20 pm

stratosphere wrote:
lebda wrote:
Good Lord, I'm going to have to say it again: this is exactly why women feel discouraged from becoming pilots. I don't know what world you're living in, but women certainly do not get preferential treatment in hiring when it comes to applying for airlines.

Lemme put it this way, when people come up to me, they don't talk to me about the specifics of flight or about the latest aircraft, or anything that they'd normally have a conversation about. They look at me and say something along the lines of "oh, female pilots are rare, flying is hard", like that's all you're capable of talking about. And that's at best. Worst case scenario, somebody will have a meltdown about why you're everything that's wrong with the world, but thankfully I haven't gotten that reaction yet.

Of course not everyone is like this, I have had meaningful discussions with other people interested in aviation before without mention of what's in my pants. But it's not uncommon to get annoying comments.

[edited to elaborate and also because i apparently can't spell]


I don't know what rock you have been under but companies most certainly do give preferential treatment in their hiring of minorities and airlines are no different. United Airlines was ordered by EEOC consent decree to favor African American pilots in their hiring process and women white or otherwise also fell into this category. My cousin was a USCG C-130 commander and Coast Guard Academy graduate flying search and rescue missions in Alaska and in the mid 90's when he applied to United he wasn't even offered an interview but during that same time period they hired a female Embry Riddle grad with 300 hrs total time and no turbine time and put her in a DC-10 so don't say women do not get preferential treatment because they most certainly do.


Oh how wonderful, the whole world just gave minorities and white women pass because of the things they can't change. Well this is according to your story though, not the billions of women in the whole world who encounter discrimination based on their gender.

And the fact that YOU KNOW for a fact that United discriminated against your cousin. Because he doesn't get a callback for the interview. From thousands of people, your cousin doesn't get the callback. How unlucky....
 
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longhauler
Posts: 5866
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:46 pm

greendot wrote:

How do you define hard?

Which job is the hardest, in your opinion?
  • pilot
  • flight attendant
  • home construction
  • nuclear scientist


Exactly.

Think about an emergency appendectomy. Who does the most "work"? The surgeon who had to move a scalpel 4 inches, or the cleaning crew that scrubbed down the OR before the procedure? Same thing with pilots and flight attendants.

My Dad always taught me that one wants a job where you are paid for what you know, not for what you do.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
log0008
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:51 pm

I have seen statistics for Australian airlines and can tell you that retention rate for female pilots is almost 3x worse that of male pilot in terms of pilots leaving the carrier/industry the simple fact is that Aviation really isn’t suited to most women, long hours including days away from home, high stress, repetitive but demanding work load, work which requires you to start and end work and any hours of the day.

The airlines promote female pilots because they see it as a way to boost numbers and prevent higher demands from pilots in regard to pay and conditions.

Also if you want evidence that women are favoured look at Jetstar and Virgin Australia cadetships where both as recent courses run with 8 females and 2males.
 
ewt340
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:57 pm

log0008 wrote:
I have seen statistics for Australian airlines and can tell you that retention rate for female pilots is almost 3x worse that of male pilot in terms of pilots leaving the carrier/industry the simple fact is that Aviation really isn’t suited to most women, long hours including days away from home, high stress, repetitive but demanding work load, work which requires you to start and end work and any hours of the day.

The airlines promote female pilots because they see it as a way to boost numbers and prevent higher demands from pilots in regard to pay and conditions.

Also if you want evidence that women are favoured look at Jetstar and Virgin Australia cadetships where both as recent courses run with 8 females and 2males.


To be fair, the same thing could be said about female Flight attendants. They have the same schedule as male Flight attendants or pilots. long hours away from home, high stress, repetitive and more demanding workload, just like pilots.

But we don't really looking into that and compared it don't we?
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:58 pm

The KLM Flight Academy for example tries to get female cadets. (For whatever reason cause I dont care male female, only good pilots count.)

But they just dont come.
The girls want to do other stuff.
It is about 5% females at the academy at least 20/30 years now.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:02 pm

longhauler wrote:
greendot wrote:

How do you define hard?

Which job is the hardest, in your opinion?
  • pilot
  • flight attendant
  • home construction
  • nuclear scientist


Exactly.

Think about an emergency appendectomy. Who does the most "work"? The surgeon who had to move a scalpel 4 inches, or the cleaning crew that scrubbed down the OR before the procedure? Same thing with pilots and flight attendants.

My Dad always taught me that one wants a job where you are paid for what you know, not for what you do.


The old chief pilot of KLM once said: my pilots get paid for what they can do, not for what they do.
 
ghYHZ
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:18 pm

smallmj wrote:
Suddenly I have "Me and the Sky" from "Come From Away" going through my head.


Yes!.....Jenn Colella portraying American '777 Captain Beverley Bass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7YjmKBMKsg
 
greendot
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:31 pm

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Encouraging and forcing are 2 different things. You are making assumptions that Airlines are Forcing women to become pilots. If they wanted to become mothers or stay home wife, do that, but I also doesn't mind if Men became stay home dad.

You are making assumptions with no actual proofs regarding your claim, it's called bias, not facts. I was born and grow up in Asia. You don't know how F'up the social structure here. To hear Men, especially the one come from Modern Western countries (not you I supposed?) and said "Oh women have it easy because ALL of them got priority" just proof how stupid people are in 2018.
Clearly education about Facts is lacking in your school. But I'm not surprise when these kind of assumptions come from many people who are "Conservatives". Because most of them time, they don't care about the actual world.
The US/West Europe and Asia are way different. Sexism is a normal as breathing oxygen for humans.

It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. But you are the one who want to talk about the gender of the pilots, not me. Stop with your "I'm not sexist but she is a female who should be a mother" bias.

"HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality."
It's called stopping special treatment for (assuming you're from the US or Europe) White Americans who have been discriminating minorities.
With due respect, few decades ago, many minorities are not hireable because of their skin color. Not because of their skills.

It meant that the Colour restrictions you use back in the day is gone. Not Special treatment for minorities or women.



The airlines are institutionalizing discrimination by promoting one gender over another. You keep saying ideas are stupid but you consistently demonstrate your argument to be a purely emotional one, which is characteristic of people who think they are educated but are instead indoctrinated. Also, to put it simply, you are rationalizing sexism because it works for your belief system. We don't need a new form of discrimination... no special treatments. Your ideaology is sexist, you just don't want to admit it. Also, I wouldn't blindly attack conservatives without doing deep analysis on the matter. You know there's a reason that immature college kids love leftism but when they grow up, get jobs, and become responsible, they adopt conservative principles.

Let women be whatever they want to be. Don't make them out to be losers because they don't want to become pilots. I know several women who left aviation after they wanted a different focus in their lives. They always told me about the shame they were made to feel by some women with agendas. It's ok if most girls don't want to play war or build model airplanes. Maybe most of them like dressing up like a princess. There is nothing wrong with that and your notions of social engineering are harming generations of girls who just want to be left alone from your relativistic politics.


Here you go people. Encouraging women to become Pilots is Sexist. You heard it from Greendot.
I don't understand how people could be this stupid..... smh.

Anyway, we are Encouraging women to become pilots because we already encourage men to become one. We don't DISCOURAGE men or DISCRIMINATING men from becoming pilots. Please learn the difference.


How about you just leave them alone. Don't discriminate and don't promote (a form of passive reverse-discrimination).
 
apodino
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:42 pm

I have worked with a lot of Female pilots in my career and I will say many of the female Pilots are among the best pilots I have ever worked with, and most of the bad pilots I have seen have been men. Just saying.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:32 pm

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:


The airlines are institutionalizing discrimination by promoting one gender over another. You keep saying ideas are stupid but you consistently demonstrate your argument to be a purely emotional one, which is characteristic of people who think they are educated but are instead indoctrinated. Also, to put it simply, you are rationalizing sexism because it works for your belief system. We don't need a new form of discrimination... no special treatments. Your ideaology is sexist, you just don't want to admit it. Also, I wouldn't blindly attack conservatives without doing deep analysis on the matter. You know there's a reason that immature college kids love leftism but when they grow up, get jobs, and become responsible, they adopt conservative principles.

Let women be whatever they want to be. Don't make them out to be losers because they don't want to become pilots. I know several women who left aviation after they wanted a different focus in their lives. They always told me about the shame they were made to feel by some women with agendas. It's ok if most girls don't want to play war or build model airplanes. Maybe most of them like dressing up like a princess. There is nothing wrong with that and your notions of social engineering are harming generations of girls who just want to be left alone from your relativistic politics.


Here you go people. Encouraging women to become Pilots is Sexist. You heard it from Greendot.
I don't understand how people could be this stupid..... smh.

Anyway, we are Encouraging women to become pilots because we already encourage men to become one. We don't DISCOURAGE men or DISCRIMINATING men from becoming pilots. Please learn the difference.


How about you just leave them alone. Don't discriminate and don't promote (a form of passive reverse-discrimination).


Wtf? How is that make sense. Why don't we encourage everybody to enter the aviation industry? What's wrong with that?

This is some weird shit logic right here.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:22 pm

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Here you go people. Encouraging women to become Pilots is Sexist. You heard it from Greendot.
I don't understand how people could be this stupid..... smh.

Anyway, we are Encouraging women to become pilots because we already encourage men to become one. We don't DISCOURAGE men or DISCRIMINATING men from becoming pilots. Please learn the difference.


How about you just leave them alone. Don't discriminate and don't promote (a form of passive reverse-discrimination).


Wtf? How is that make sense. Why don't we encourage everybody to enter the aviation industry? What's wrong with that?

This is some weird shit logic right here.


Don't be daft. Give your brain a chance. Of course you can encourage everybody to join the aviation industry. But that isn't done by stratifying one gender as the solution to the problem. Encouraging people into aviation is done by having wages that exceed that of a burger flipper and by offering a decent quality of life. That's the *only* reason why the regionals can't get pilots. Supporting airlines having HR policies with gender quotas or gender elevated preferential hiring is a huge problem that needs to go away. Everyone needs to be treated equally, not glorified based on gender. Reverse discrimination will not make things better.

Let me show you what discrimination based on gender looks like: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... pe-claims/
Notice how he was never convicted of anything by a due process court of law. Yet, Alaska and their HR department vilified him based on her accusations alone. Why does this unequal treatment occur?
 
User avatar
lebda
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:37 pm

stratosphere wrote:
lebda wrote:
Good Lord, I'm going to have to say it again: this is exactly why women feel discouraged from becoming pilots. I don't know what world you're living in, but women certainly do not get preferential treatment in hiring when it comes to applying for airlines.

Lemme put it this way, when people come up to me, they don't talk to me about the specifics of flight or about the latest aircraft, or anything that they'd normally have a conversation about. They look at me and say something along the lines of "oh, female pilots are rare, flying is hard", like that's all you're capable of talking about. And that's at best. Worst case scenario, somebody will have a meltdown about why you're everything that's wrong with the world, but thankfully I haven't gotten that reaction yet.

Of course not everyone is like this, I have had meaningful discussions with other people interested in aviation before without mention of what's in my pants. But it's not uncommon to get annoying comments.

[edited to elaborate and also because i apparently can't spell]


I don't know what rock you have been under but companies most certainly do give preferential treatment in their hiring of minorities and airlines are no different. United Airlines was ordered by EEOC consent decree to favor African American pilots in their hiring process and women white or otherwise also fell into this category. My cousin was a USCG C-130 commander and Coast Guard Academy graduate flying search and rescue missions in Alaska and in the mid 90's when he applied to United he wasn't even offered an interview but during that same time period they hired a female Embry Riddle grad with 300 hrs total time and no turbine time and put her in a DC-10 so don't say women do not get preferential treatment because they most certainly do.


"A woman, whose level of experience I totally know everything about by the way guys, was chosen over my brother, a literal demi-god, not taking into account various other factors like communication skills and other things the company may be looking for at the time. Discrimination!"
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
User avatar
lebda
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:47 pm

log0008 wrote:
the simple fact is that Aviation really isn’t suited to most women, long hours including days away from home, high stress, repetitive but demanding work load, work which requires you to start and end work and any hours of the day.


This is hilariously insulting. Are traditionally "girly" jobs like nursing and cabin crew not like that? What about being a stay-at-home mom (minus the days away from home part)?
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:56 pm

lebda wrote:
log0008 wrote:
the simple fact is that Aviation really isn’t suited to most women, long hours including days away from home, high stress, repetitive but demanding work load, work which requires you to start and end work and any hours of the day.


This is hilariously insulting. Are traditionally "girly" jobs like nursing and cabin crew not like that? What about being a stay-at-home mom (minus the days away from home part)?


You are aware that aviation causes different physiological dangers to women? For example: women who are pregnant cannot be exposed to the significant increase in cosmic radiation from flying. When I was in the military, women had to sign waivers absolving the government of responsibility to damage caused to their reproductive system as a result of flying high performance aircraft. Oh yes... and let's not forget the biological constraint of... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ng-at-work
They wanted to breast pump while flying the airplane. Yes, this is actually a lawsuit. I don't see why people are insulted by the facts of biology. Women do have increased needs that men don't have. This is probably a big reason aviation is not chosen by women just as much a reason why women choose not to work at oil rigs in the middle of the North Atlantic. Perhaps we need to push women into oil rig work too. You know..because of social justice and all....
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7560
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:08 pm

ual763 wrote:
Tucker1 wrote:
Too many 'elitists' here. There's no way a woman couldn't be as qualified as a man to be a pilot. Some need to get off their high horses and accept that fact. It isn't a gender specific career as some other careers could be perceived.


Nobody is saying women aren’t good pilots. What we ARE saying is that women shouldn’t be given PREFERENTIAL treatment on applications just for the fact that they are women.


Why not, men have been given preferential treatment for decades. Nobody complained than about lower qualified males were hired instead higher qualified woman. Just think the horror, must have led to endless accidents. :sarcastic:
 
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lebda
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:10 pm

greendot wrote:
lebda wrote:
log0008 wrote:
the simple fact is that Aviation really isn’t suited to most women, long hours including days away from home, high stress, repetitive but demanding work load, work which requires you to start and end work and any hours of the day.


This is hilariously insulting. Are traditionally "girly" jobs like nursing and cabin crew not like that? What about being a stay-at-home mom (minus the days away from home part)?


You are aware that aviation causes different physiological dangers to women? For example: women who are pregnant cannot be exposed to the significant increase in cosmic radiation from flying. When I was in the military, women had to sign waivers absolving the government of responsibility to damage caused to their reproductive system as a result of flying high performance aircraft. Oh yes... and let's not forget the biological constraint of... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ng-at-work
They wanted to breast pump while flying the airplane. Yes, this is actually a lawsuit. I don't see why people are insulted by the facts of biology. Women do have increased needs that men don't have. This is probably a big reason aviation is not chosen by women just as much a reason why women choose not to work at oil rigs in the middle of the North Atlantic. Perhaps we need to push women into oil rig work too. You know..because of social justice and all....


Haha yes I forgot, women are supposed to be breeders, not people with individual aspirations. Silly me. Women are only useful so long as their reproductive systems push out like 10 kids. :roll:

...So did the men have to sign waivers acknowledging that their nuts might be permanently pushed up into their chest cavity if they pull like 9Gs?
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
Birdwatching
Posts: 3680
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:36 pm

I can't believe this thread has 80 replies and nobody has realized the actual, honest reason why there are much fewer female pilots than male.
Females simply aren't as interested in aviation as men. Period.

How many commercial pilots chose that job simply because they think it's a good / well paying job, and have no personal inrerest in aviation (going back to their childhood)? I bet there are a few, but not many.

I'm a high school teacher and I have taught lots of students of all ages, about 11 years old to 18 years old, and I always keep an eye on who's interested in aviation. There were a few over the years, and it's always nice to see new entrants to this hobby, and have a chat once in a while about planes. But they are always boys.

When I made my pilot license, there were a few females in the club, but probably 90% males. That's just the way it is, girls are simply not as likely to be interested in planes. There are some that are, but the percentage is low.
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
greendot
Posts: 63
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:35 am

lebda wrote:
greendot wrote:
lebda wrote:

This is hilariously insulting. Are traditionally "girly" jobs like nursing and cabin crew not like that? What about being a stay-at-home mom (minus the days away from home part)?


You are aware that aviation causes different physiological dangers to women? For example: women who are pregnant cannot be exposed to the significant increase in cosmic radiation from flying. When I was in the military, women had to sign waivers absolving the government of responsibility to damage caused to their reproductive system as a result of flying high performance aircraft. Oh yes... and let's not forget the biological constraint of... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... ng-at-work
They wanted to breast pump while flying the airplane. Yes, this is actually a lawsuit. I don't see why people are insulted by the facts of biology. Women do have increased needs that men don't have. This is probably a big reason aviation is not chosen by women just as much a reason why women choose not to work at oil rigs in the middle of the North Atlantic. Perhaps we need to push women into oil rig work too. You know..because of social justice and all....


Haha yes I forgot, women are supposed to be breeders, not people with individual aspirations. Silly me. Women are only useful so long as their reproductive systems push out like 10 kids. :roll:

...So did the men have to sign waivers acknowledging that their nuts might be permanently pushed up into their chest cavity if they pull like 9Gs?


I can see that you want to be emotional rather than factual and scientific.

Women are asked to sign waivers because there is a historical precedence for women being harmed by activities unique to high performance aviation. If there hadn't been problems in the past, they wouldn't be asked to the sign the waiver. Do you have a problem with that?

As far as men go, yes, some sign waivers but not for the same things women do. The simple fact is that women are have more things that can go wrong compared to men. Men didn't make this up... it's scientific fact. You can go test for yourself. As far as airline flying is concerned, it certainly isn't the equivalent of flying high performance military jets. Women are in fewer numbers because most choose not to want the lifestyle and all the baggage that comes with it.

Why can't you just accept what most women choose? The only logical counterargument is that there is a vast conspiracy to keep women out of aviation. That certainly is not the truth. It's the same reason why there aren't a lot of women in STEM or work as roughnecks in oil rigs. They just don't want to do it.

If you are doing it as a woman, more power to you. Just don't be so judgmental of women who are different than you or be sexist against men who don't support the crusade to get equal numbers of women as men in the cockpit. This is equal outcomes and it is not a just principle since it involves using sexism or racism to accomplish its goal. Let women be women.
 
highflier92660
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:43 am

apodino wrote:
I have worked with a lot of Female pilots in my career and I will say many of the female Pilots are among the best pilots I have ever worked with, and most of the bad pilots I have seen have been men. Just saying.


You do realize that quote must be memorized during initial training? And it applies even if her last dozen landings register over on Caltech's seismographs.
 
log0008
Posts: 419
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:32 am

Birdwatching wrote:
I can't believe this thread has 80 replies and nobody has realized the actual, honest reason why there are much fewer female pilots than male.
Females simply aren't as interested in aviation as men. Period.

How many commercial pilots chose that job simply because they think it's a good / well paying job, and have no personal inrerest in aviation (going back to their childhood)? I bet there are a few, but not many.

I'm a high school teacher and I have taught lots of students of all ages, about 11 years old to 18 years old, and I always keep an eye on who's interested in aviation. There were a few over the years, and it's always nice to see new entrants to this hobby, and have a chat once in a while about planes. But they are always boys.

When I made my pilot license, there were a few females in the club, but probably 90% males. That's just the way it is, girls are simply not as likely to be interested in planes. There are some that are, but the percentage is low.


No No No, your wrong the reason boys like aviation more often is because we force it upon them, we don't allow girls to play with planes as kids or buy them FSX..... #sarcasm
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 am

log0008 wrote:
Birdwatching wrote:
I can't believe this thread has 80 replies and nobody has realized the actual, honest reason why there are much fewer female pilots than male.
Females simply aren't as interested in aviation as men. Period.

How many commercial pilots chose that job simply because they think it's a good / well paying job, and have no personal inrerest in aviation (going back to their childhood)? I bet there are a few, but not many.

I'm a high school teacher and I have taught lots of students of all ages, about 11 years old to 18 years old, and I always keep an eye on who's interested in aviation. There were a few over the years, and it's always nice to see new entrants to this hobby, and have a chat once in a while about planes. But they are always boys.

When I made my pilot license, there were a few females in the club, but probably 90% males. That's just the way it is, girls are simply not as likely to be interested in planes. There are some that are, but the percentage is low.


No No No, your wrong the reason boys like aviation more often is because we force it upon them, we don't allow girls to play with planes as kids or buy them FSX..... #sarcasm


Cause barbie could be used to fly at 35,000 ft #sarcasm

But honestly, it's not surprising though, many still see pilot as a male dominated jobs.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
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Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:58 am

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:

How about you just leave them alone. Don't discriminate and don't promote (a form of passive reverse-discrimination).


Wtf? How is that make sense. Why don't we encourage everybody to enter the aviation industry? What's wrong with that?

This is some weird shit logic right here.


Don't be daft. Give your brain a chance. Of course you can encourage everybody to join the aviation industry. But that isn't done by stratifying one gender as the solution to the problem. Encouraging people into aviation is done by having wages that exceed that of a burger flipper and by offering a decent quality of life. That's the *only* reason why the regionals can't get pilots. Supporting airlines having HR policies with gender quotas or gender elevated preferential hiring is a huge problem that needs to go away. Everyone needs to be treated equally, not glorified based on gender. Reverse discrimination will not make things better.

Let me show you what discrimination based on gender looks like: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... pe-claims/
Notice how he was never convicted of anything by a due process court of law. Yet, Alaska and their HR department vilified him based on her accusations alone. Why does this unequal treatment occur?


Let me phares the end of he article to why he is fired:

"Alaska eventually fired Engelien (The Male Pilot) after the MFR Group concluded he likely lied about his phone’s time discrepancies and violated the airline’s 10-hour rule. The same investigation also found “insufficient evidence” that Engelien (The Male Pilot) had raped and drugged Pina (The Female Pilot)"

They didn't vilified him based on the rape case. They vilified BOTH of them because of the alcohol situation. Please actually read the article....

Alaska also seeking to resolved this problems with both the Male and female pilots. They didn't just stop the process and say "Oh well".

Again, what I said was that since we already encouraging men to became pilots, why don't we encourage women to became one as well? You are ENCOURAGING not FORCING women to become pilots.
Why would you get soo angry about this? It's like you hated it when they became pilot.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:47 am

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Wtf? How is that make sense. Why don't we encourage everybody to enter the aviation industry? What's wrong with that?

This is some weird shit logic right here.


Don't be daft. Give your brain a chance. Of course you can encourage everybody to join the aviation industry. But that isn't done by stratifying one gender as the solution to the problem. Encouraging people into aviation is done by having wages that exceed that of a burger flipper and by offering a decent quality of life. That's the *only* reason why the regionals can't get pilots. Supporting airlines having HR policies with gender quotas or gender elevated preferential hiring is a huge problem that needs to go away. Everyone needs to be treated equally, not glorified based on gender. Reverse discrimination will not make things better.

Let me show you what discrimination based on gender looks like: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... pe-claims/
Notice how he was never convicted of anything by a due process court of law. Yet, Alaska and their HR department vilified him based on her accusations alone. Why does this unequal treatment occur?


Let me phares the end of he article to why he is fired:

"Alaska eventually fired Engelien (The Male Pilot) after the MFR Group concluded he likely lied about his phone’s time discrepancies and violated the airline’s 10-hour rule. The same investigation also found “insufficient evidence” that Engelien (The Male Pilot) had raped and drugged Pina (The Female Pilot)"

They didn't vilified him based on the rape case. They vilified BOTH of them because of the alcohol situation. Please actually read the article....

Alaska also seeking to resolved this problems with both the Male and female pilots. They didn't just stop the process and say "Oh well".

Again, what I said was that since we already encouraging men to became pilots, why don't we encourage women to became one as well? You are ENCOURAGING not FORCING women to become pilots.
Why would you get soo angry about this? It's like you hated it when they became pilot.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


You shouldn't "encourage" anyone based on gender. End of story. That is sexist. You can interject whatever self-projected emotions you want to an argument, it doesn't make it true. Let's just talk facts here.

As far as the article goes, it's clear that you didn't comprehend the important elements of it. Do you understand why he is suing Alaska? The major point here is that Alaska used flawed internal processes to fire him based on mere accusations. Who convicted him? Some Alaska HR people who have no authority whatsoever or a court of due process of law? He was treated grossly unfairly because there is a double standard when it comes to female on male accusations. I guess you've never seen "The Red Pill". My point in showing you this article is that women do get preferential treatment in that they are believed without evidence or due process of law. Mere accusations are enough to cost this man's career. While his career is effectively over, she somehow immediately got hired at a Hawaiian based airline. Again, my point being that women are highly privileged. If I'm wrong about this, then there wouldn't be a lawsuit. We all need to strive for equality, not for special treatments based on identity politics.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


Thank for the lesson in the obvious but I already live the dream and I'm 110% familiar with all aspects of it.

Regional airlines pay terribly because the consumer and the employees allowed it. You can't dissolve responsibility away and those who fed the beast are to blame for its existence. Clearly these companies are making money. Have you checked on the amount of executive compensation? You can defend the business model all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the pilot shortage is a manufactured economic problem caused by the race to the bottom. If they can't find people who are dumb enough to work for $17k a year, that's their own fault for paying so little. When your revenue mostly goes to executive compensation and investors, I can't sympathize with management. I can't run a hospital paying doctors $20,000 a year, why should an airline get away with paying so little? At some point a business just shouldn't exist if it has no business model other than sheer exploitation.
 
maint123
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:04 am

Indian airlines have the highest proportion of female pilots ! Not one but it seems all airlines in India are leading the airlines of established economies by a factor of 2.
Not surprising as my father was in a commercial plane piloted by a female in the 1960s .
This story won't gain much traction in the established western media , esp British.
 
ewt340
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:27 am

greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:

Don't be daft. Give your brain a chance. Of course you can encourage everybody to join the aviation industry. But that isn't done by stratifying one gender as the solution to the problem. Encouraging people into aviation is done by having wages that exceed that of a burger flipper and by offering a decent quality of life. That's the *only* reason why the regionals can't get pilots. Supporting airlines having HR policies with gender quotas or gender elevated preferential hiring is a huge problem that needs to go away. Everyone needs to be treated equally, not glorified based on gender. Reverse discrimination will not make things better.

Let me show you what discrimination based on gender looks like: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... pe-claims/
Notice how he was never convicted of anything by a due process court of law. Yet, Alaska and their HR department vilified him based on her accusations alone. Why does this unequal treatment occur?


Let me phares the end of he article to why he is fired:

"Alaska eventually fired Engelien (The Male Pilot) after the MFR Group concluded he likely lied about his phone’s time discrepancies and violated the airline’s 10-hour rule. The same investigation also found “insufficient evidence” that Engelien (The Male Pilot) had raped and drugged Pina (The Female Pilot)"

They didn't vilified him based on the rape case. They vilified BOTH of them because of the alcohol situation. Please actually read the article....

Alaska also seeking to resolved this problems with both the Male and female pilots. They didn't just stop the process and say "Oh well".

Again, what I said was that since we already encouraging men to became pilots, why don't we encourage women to became one as well? You are ENCOURAGING not FORCING women to become pilots.
Why would you get soo angry about this? It's like you hated it when they became pilot.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


You shouldn't "encourage" anyone based on gender. End of story. That is sexist. You can interject whatever self-projected emotions you want to an argument, it doesn't make it true. Let's just talk facts here.

As far as the article goes, it's clear that you didn't comprehend the important elements of it. Do you understand why he is suing Alaska? The major point here is that Alaska used flawed internal processes to fire him based on mere accusations. Who convicted him? Some Alaska HR people who have no authority whatsoever or a court of due process of law? He was treated grossly unfairly because there is a double standard when it comes to female on male accusations. I guess you've never seen "The Red Pill". My point in showing you this article is that women do get preferential treatment in that they are believed without evidence or due process of law. Mere accusations are enough to cost this man's career. While his career is effectively over, she somehow immediately got hired at a Hawaiian based airline. Again, my point being that women are highly privileged. If I'm wrong about this, then there wouldn't be a lawsuit. We all need to strive for equality, not for special treatments based on identity politics.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


Thank for the lesson in the obvious but I already live the dream and I'm 110% familiar with all aspects of it.

Regional airlines pay terribly because the consumer and the employees allowed it. You can't dissolve responsibility away and those who fed the beast are to blame for its existence. Clearly these companies are making money. Have you checked on the amount of executive compensation? You can defend the business model all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the pilot shortage is a manufactured economic problem caused by the race to the bottom. If they can't find people who are dumb enough to work for $17k a year, that's their own fault for paying so little. When your revenue mostly goes to executive compensation and investors, I can't sympathize with management. I can't run a hospital paying doctors $20,000 a year, why should an airline get away with paying so little? At some point a business just shouldn't exist if it has no business model other than sheer exploitation.


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

It's like I'm talking to a 5 year old here.....

I'm sure I'd like to take one of those Red Pills instead of using my brain to think logically :roll:
 
User avatar
Lilienthal
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:35 am

Few things are as weak and unmanly as men trying to spin this push for more gender equality and freedom into some kind of "social engineering" or an "attack on men". Seriously, the self-victimization is pathetic. Show us some real numbers about women being "less qualified" on the job. Just because there are some programs that promote female applications, doesn't mean that they are less qualified to fly a plane. The captain of SWA345 was a female? What do the hundreds of other pilot error crashes tell you about males? The "problem" is not with these women, or people trying to work towards equal opportunities in the workplace, the "problem" is in your head.

When i sit on an airplane and hear a female pilots voice i have a smile on my face, because these ladies not only have to go through the same training and check rides as their male counterparts, they also constantly have to fight bigots like you. Women in heavily male-dominated jobs are determined, disciplined, intelligent, strong people, more so than a lot of their male counterparts. Because that's what it takes to succeed.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:32 pm

ual763 wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


They literally get more points on their applications for being members of Women In Aviation International. So, yes they are getting special treatment. Like it or not, it is unfair.


Honest question, could a man join?
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:30 pm

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Let me phares the end of he article to why he is fired:

"Alaska eventually fired Engelien (The Male Pilot) after the MFR Group concluded he likely lied about his phone’s time discrepancies and violated the airline’s 10-hour rule. The same investigation also found “insufficient evidence” that Engelien (The Male Pilot) had raped and drugged Pina (The Female Pilot)"

They didn't vilified him based on the rape case. They vilified BOTH of them because of the alcohol situation. Please actually read the article....

Alaska also seeking to resolved this problems with both the Male and female pilots. They didn't just stop the process and say "Oh well".

Again, what I said was that since we already encouraging men to became pilots, why don't we encourage women to became one as well? You are ENCOURAGING not FORCING women to become pilots.
Why would you get soo angry about this? It's like you hated it when they became pilot.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


You shouldn't "encourage" anyone based on gender. End of story. That is sexist. You can interject whatever self-projected emotions you want to an argument, it doesn't make it true. Let's just talk facts here.

As far as the article goes, it's clear that you didn't comprehend the important elements of it. Do you understand why he is suing Alaska? The major point here is that Alaska used flawed internal processes to fire him based on mere accusations. Who convicted him? Some Alaska HR people who have no authority whatsoever or a court of due process of law? He was treated grossly unfairly because there is a double standard when it comes to female on male accusations. I guess you've never seen "The Red Pill". My point in showing you this article is that women do get preferential treatment in that they are believed without evidence or due process of law. Mere accusations are enough to cost this man's career. While his career is effectively over, she somehow immediately got hired at a Hawaiian based airline. Again, my point being that women are highly privileged. If I'm wrong about this, then there wouldn't be a lawsuit. We all need to strive for equality, not for special treatments based on identity politics.

Regional airlines paid pilot shitty wages because:
1. They know many pilots wanted to accumulate hours.
2. Operating a smaller CRJ or Bombardier aircraft require 2 pilots, the same as A321 or B737-900ER. Which mean that for 2 pilots, they carry less passengers which mean that the expenses for the smaller aircraft regarding the smaller aircraft is similar to larger narrow-body aircraft like A321 or B737-900ER. In order to be profitable they would have to offer lower wages. Unlike FA, you can't decrease the number of pilots.
3. Many smaller cities are unprofitable to operate to.


Thank for the lesson in the obvious but I already live the dream and I'm 110% familiar with all aspects of it.

Regional airlines pay terribly because the consumer and the employees allowed it. You can't dissolve responsibility away and those who fed the beast are to blame for its existence. Clearly these companies are making money. Have you checked on the amount of executive compensation? You can defend the business model all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the pilot shortage is a manufactured economic problem caused by the race to the bottom. If they can't find people who are dumb enough to work for $17k a year, that's their own fault for paying so little. When your revenue mostly goes to executive compensation and investors, I can't sympathize with management. I can't run a hospital paying doctors $20,000 a year, why should an airline get away with paying so little? At some point a business just shouldn't exist if it has no business model other than sheer exploitation.


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

It's like I'm talking to a 5 year old here.....

I'm sure I'd like to take one of those Red Pills instead of using my brain to think logically :roll:


What you are advocating is not logical. It is sexist. It's very simple. Everyone should have equal opportunity. Equal outcome is not guaranteed.
 
ual763
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:34 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
ual763 wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


They literally get more points on their applications for being members of Women In Aviation International. So, yes they are getting special treatment. Like it or not, it is unfair.


Honest question, could a man join?


A man can join, yes. But, you shouldn’t have to join any group to get ahead.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:44 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
ual763 wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


They literally get more points on their applications for being members of Women In Aviation International. So, yes they are getting special treatment. Like it or not, it is unfair.


Honest question, could a man join?


It doesn't matter if a man joins. The employer discriminates at hiring time. There is affirmative action in place at every airline. It's either through quotas or through HR policies. They are all discriminatory against men and therefore sexist. Since now people seem to think they can change genders or have multiple genders at the same time, who knows, perhaps its discriminatory against them too. All around it's just sexist. During employment at airlines, you are constantly bombarded by sexist HR stunts such as "record breaking all female crews". How is that not sexist?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-air ... en-pilots/

They are highlighting gender exclusivity - that is the definition of sexism. And, need I remind you that HR does discriminate against men because people get fired based on "accusations" rather than on judicial action. Look at this lawsuit (again): https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... pe-claims/

Again, I remind that he was never convicted in a court of due process of law. He was convicted by a sexist HR department that relies on unproven accusations.

Incidentally, how did she get hired at her new airline so quickly when there are literally 5+ years worth of applicant backlog? What will happen if he wins in court proving that Alaska fired him based on false accusations? Will she lose her new job for lying? This is why we need due process in a lawful court. Otherwise it ends up being a sexist political agenda.
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:15 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.

This part reminds me of QR CEO Akbar Al-Baker's quote on why women cannot lead arilines.
“Of course it has to be led by a man, because it is a very challenging position.”

From: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/business/qatar-airways-akbar-al-baker-women.html
Not sure I agree with the argument that tough careers attract less women.


Oh no. What he said was sexist to the max. It is tough for both genders, but bother genders can equally work in aviation.
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:19 pm

ewt340 wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.


Well yeah, Flight attendants. They also work hard on the same shift and get paid way less than pilots. It's proved that any gender could withstand the harsh work environment with way lower wages.
May I say many FA have to work harder because they actually have to serve foods and drinks, cooking, cleaning the plane?


Absolutely, I didn't mean to only to refer to pilots. Being an FA is a tough job. I have massive respect for the FAs in my airline. They have to fly at all hours of the day and do their job. It is a tough business to be in.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:02 pm

If anyone wants to understand why more women aren't pilots, they need do no more than look at the steaming pile of sexist dog mess that is this thread.

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