User avatar
NeBaNi
Topic Author
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:22 am

I was reading this story about female pilots in China, and got thinking about why such a large proportion of pilots are male.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/05/reuters-america-in-china-female-pilots-strain-to-hold-up-half-the-sky.html

Some of the interesting things from the article:
Han is one of just 713 women in China who, at the end of 2017, held a license to fly civilian aircraft, compared with 55,052 men. Of Spring Airlines' 800 pilots, only six are women.
That's 1.3%! :eyepopping:
In some other Asian countries:
[The] proportion of female pilots in South Korea and Japan, where such jobs do not conform to widespread gender stereotypes, is also less than 3 percent.
Compare that to India:
India has the world's highest proportion of female commercial pilots, at 12 percent.
Even 12% seems too low to me.

One of the factors the article points out that causes this, at least in China, has to do with maternity leave.
Li Haipeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Management Institute of China's general aviation department, said many airlines were also dissuaded to hire women by generous maternity leave policies. That has been further aggravated by Beijing's move in 2015 to change the one-child policy, he added.

"Male pilots do not have the issue of not being able to fly for two years after giving birth, and after the introduction of the second-child policy, airlines are not willing to recruit and train a pilot only to have her not being able to fly for about five years," he said.


It seems like piloting is more of a men's club than I previously assumed. If India is the highest at 12%, then that means even in western countries, it is not common to see female pilots.
Considering that there is a (looming) shortage of pilots, one sensible (albeit long term) solution imo, is to make the profession more attractive to women: recruit more, make women in the profession more visible, etc.

Of course, this article does not address other things like wage gaps, (sexual) harrassment and the like. But it does present numbers, and those numbers are mind-boggling to me.
 
Speedalive
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:34 am

NeBaNi wrote:
Considering that there is a (looming) shortage of pilots, one sensible (albeit long term) solution imo, is to make the profession more attractive to women: recruit more, make women in the profession more visible, etc.

Where have you been? This is exactly what's happening. At least in North America.. I can't speak for other countries, but in Canada, there's no wage gap or any restrictions to become a female pilot. In fact it's probably easier with all of these scholarships directed towards women.
Aircraft flown:
i) in the front seat: Z42, C172, C182, C240, PA34, TBM9;
ii) as pax: BE20, LJ35, DH8A/C/D, DC93, E190, A319/20/21, B736/7/8, B762/3
 
flyguy84
Posts: 662
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:38 am

Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/
SFO
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1510
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:42 am

There’s no barrier, but females historically choose careers that allow for family, child bearing, that work more regular hours, are less physically demanding, etc. Men are 13 times more likely to die “on the job” and that’s because they choose more hazardous fields. Men have different desires, goals, personality traits than women. Yes, there’s not absolutes, but the percentage of women who would choose piloting careers is vastly smaller than the percentage of women, just as the percentage of men choosing mining is greater than the number of women doing so.

Harvard did a study on the Boston MBTA on why women there, under a union contract that clearly paid the same for all workers in a job specialty, earned 86% of men in the same field. Train drivers, IIRC. Well, women volunteered for less overtime, less night and holiday premium pay, took more family leave.

GF
 
User avatar
NeBaNi
Topic Author
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:18 am

flyguy84 wrote:
Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/

Wow, the infographic on that article is incredibly misleading. Here it is, reproduced, so everyone doesn't have to click the link if they don't want to:
Image

I did some digging, and here's the source for the data they used to generate the infographic, right from the International Society of Women Airline Pilots website:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/658242/documents/Worldwide_List_of_Airline_Numbers_and_Women_Pilots_October_20_2018_2028462332.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIB6I23VLJX7E4J7Q&Expires=1541480227&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DWorldwide_List_of_Airline_Numbers_and_Women_Pilots_October_20_2018.pdf&Signature=3x6s7OZwJxY7qE2gBMqvU%2FlA%2Btc%3D
A couple of things:
  • While it seems to be true that United has the most number of female pilots at 940/126923 (7.41%), it seems IndiGo has the higher proportion of female pilots at 351/2689 (13.87%). Generally, Indian airlines have a higher proportion of female pilots: Jet Airways (12.4%), JetLite (13%), Air India (12.7%), Air India Express (8.47%), Alliance Air (13.9%), SpiceJet (13.2%), Vistara (11.8%), Air Asia India (10%).
  • The infographic heading says "The Airlines with the Most Female Pilots", and that claim isn't even remotely true, from a pure numbers point of view or from a percentage point of view. The statistics for the listed airlines from the data are:
    Airline/Number of female pilots/ Percentage
    UA / 940 / 7.41%
    LH / 375 / 6.94%
    BA / 245 / 5.86%
    AC / 242 / 6.5%
    BY / 8 / 5.30%
    KL / 140 / 4.83%
    B6 / 176 / 4.89%
    U2 / 164 / 5%
    NZ / 45 / 4.67%
    DL / 692 / 4.7%
    AA / 626 / 4.20%
    QF / 105 / 5%
    CX / 130 / 3.71%
    WN / 306 / 3.6%
    VS / 27 / 3.21%
    EK / 60 / 1.5%
    DY / 24 / 1.03%
    As you can see, the list doesn't go in descending order in terms of number of pilots. If they used percentage of pilots, the list ignores several of the top players, including the Indian carriers noted above. I'm surprised the journalist didn't put any effort on this. Now, I know the data for the infographic is probably from 2017, and the most recent data is from 2018, but that shouldn't cause such huge differences.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1242
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:22 am

I have a female co-pilot on CI 151 from Nagoya to Taipei today. That's a first in all my years of flying China Air.
 
ual763
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:51 am

flyguy84 wrote:
Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/


Yeah, from what I hear now you can check whether you are a member of either WIAI (Women in Aviation International) or NGPA (National Gay Pilots Association) on the application…. If you are a member of one of these, you can check the corresponding box and you automatically have more points towards your application than someone whose not a member of said group. You can read more about it on airlinepilotforums.com. The pilot group is pissed. It's not that they don't want or accept women pilots, but it's the principle that women are receiving preferential treatment just because they were born (or decided to identify) as a woman. Same thing goes with members of NGPA. There are a large number of FOs getting hired with bare minimum hours and absolutely 0 Turbine PIC time. You ask them what their in was, and a lot of them are saying "NGPA". It's not right. What was once a pilot controlled process has now been completely taken over by HR, unfortunately.
Last edited by ual763 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:01 am

Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

If anything it has already gone too far. The southwest crash at LGA was a female captain hired with substandard experience. It's not a recipe for success.

Why aren't men recruited for female dominated jobs? Nursing, teaching? The majority of medical schools grads are already female..
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
ual763
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

If anything it has already gone too far. The southwest crash at LGA was a female captain hired with substandard experience. It's not a recipe for success.

Why aren't men recruited for female dominated jobs? Nursing, teaching? The majority of medical schools grads are already female..


This is what happens when pilots aren't allowed to be involved in the hiring process anymore. Now, HR reigns supreme unfortunately. They practically run the company.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:29 am

ual763 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

If anything it has already gone too far. The southwest crash at LGA was a female captain hired with substandard experience. It's not a recipe for success.

Why aren't men recruited for female dominated jobs? Nursing, teaching? The majority of medical schools grads are already female..


This is what happens when pilots aren't allowed to be involved in the hiring process anymore. Now, HR reigns supreme unfortunately. They practically run the company.


On a material level, the biggest issue I see is females hired at the majors with no PIC experience at all. The last (and only) time they were calling the shots was doing touch and goes on their first solo. For a male this is unthinkable.

Are all females bad pilots? Not at all. Are all males good pilots? Most certainly not! What is bad are females getting white knighted to the 'front of the line' so fast they never gain any experience along the way. They are learning how to call the shots with your life on the line. Luckily there is probably a disadvantaged male in the right seat, who has more experience than his 'captain'.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
User avatar
lebda
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:42 am

In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
snehnath
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:00 am

I had the opportunity of being piloted by Capt. Rashmi Miranda, on an Air India flight from Dubai to Cochin on August 14th. Capt. Rashmi was among Air India's first female commanders. This was a 787-8 and the weather was particularly bad, the rains in Kerala, India were possibly the highest in recorded history. Capt. Rashmi, kept us informed and was superbly calm during the flight, and when the opportunity presented itself, threaded the dark clouds and landed perfectly at Cochin International Airport in the pouring rain. This was as far from affirmative action, and as close to perfect flying as possible.
 
ewt340
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:19 am

Knowing how The East Asian Social Restrictions work. I doubt we would see more female pilot. They Hated it when women holds high-paying jobs. I mean, look at the recent controversy in Japan and their University.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1706
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:04 am

lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


Are they wrong that less qualified women are more likely to get hired than less qualified men? Are they wrong about the scholarship situations?

I mean the situation seems simple to me. If I have 10 openings and 100 applicants I should hire the 10 most qualified correct? Not the 5 most qualified men and the 5 most qualified women even if they don’t make the top 10 right?
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10582
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:27 am

Yesterday on the evening news I saw a bit on Japan, where women are harassed until they quit when they are pregnant. Or forced to get an abortion. Politicos are trying to change the situation by wearing ridiculous fake bellies.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
robbo2k
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:21 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:37 am

In LOT Polish Airliners is 14 Captain and 36 First Officer 6-7% all pilots in airline. 3 women is captain and 3 is FO on 787.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7568
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:50 am

flyguy84 wrote:
Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/


Must be a graphic or statistic based on very limited information. If India has 12% female commercial pilots, than there must be some airlines in India far outpacing United.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bishopjord ... d6501d469d

It seems that Spice jet and Indigo are two of the airlines outpacing United.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7568
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:54 am

bigjku wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


Are they wrong that less qualified women are more likely to get hired than less qualified men? Are they wrong about the scholarship situations?

I mean the situation seems simple to me. If I have 10 openings and 100 applicants I should hire the 10 most qualified correct? Not the 5 most qualified men and the 5 most qualified women even if they don’t make the top 10 right?


I would think the situation has been the other way around, the woman had to be more qualified to be hired that the men. That has been the problem in a lot of technical jobs.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6204
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:55 am

flyguy84 wrote:
Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/


7.4% is less than 10%, 12% or 15%. Both SpiceJet and Air India have close to 12%

Back to topic
India's traditional extended family structure enables women to become pilots. Kids need not be solely raised by nannies.

Continuous poaching by Middle Easterns carriers also forced airlines to hire women pilots to improve retention rate.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7568
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:40 pm

bigjku wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


Are they wrong that less qualified women are more likely to get hired than less qualified men? Are they wrong about the scholarship situations?

I mean the situation seems simple to me. If I have 10 openings and 100 applicants I should hire the 10 most qualified correct? Not the 5 most qualified men and the 5 most qualified women even if they don’t make the top 10 right?


Men having been preferred simply because they were men, seems to not have bothered anyone for decades. Qualification did not matter.

White men been preferred simply because they had been white did not bother airlines quite a while. Qualification did not matter.

The whiff that a woman could be preferred to a man, terrible.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1706
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:06 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
bigjku wrote:
lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


Are they wrong that less qualified women are more likely to get hired than less qualified men? Are they wrong about the scholarship situations?

I mean the situation seems simple to me. If I have 10 openings and 100 applicants I should hire the 10 most qualified correct? Not the 5 most qualified men and the 5 most qualified women even if they don’t make the top 10 right?


Men having been preferred simply because they were men, seems to not have bothered anyone for decades. Qualification did not matter.

White men been preferred simply because they had been white did not bother airlines quite a while. Qualification did not matter.

The whiff that a woman could be preferred to a man, terrible.


No one should be preferred for anything but qualifications. Is that not the goal?
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:24 pm

I just read Bonnie Tiburzi (The First US Female Commercial Pilot) and recommend it highly......

Takeoff!: The Story of America's First Woman Pilot for a Major Airline
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 5867
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:25 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I would think the situation has been the other way around, the woman had to be more qualified to be hired that the men. That has been the problem in a lot of technical jobs.

It depended on the era.

Initially, it was as you state. In the 1970s, women had to endure a lot to gain the qualifications required by airlines. Listening to their stories, it was not an easy road to take. Then ... it sounded like a real hurdle at the airline hiring stage as well. I always listend with awe and respect when they told their stories.

Through the middle 1980s though, depending on the country or the airline, there were quotas to be filled. Then women had to be the most qualified, but within their quota. While purely anecdotal, I have heard they were less qualified than male pilots hired at the same time. But that would have been true for other quotas to be filled, like mother language and visible minority quotas.

Hired in the 1980s, as an English speaking,white male pilot, I feel very lucky! (Gay wasn't "cool" yet, so I didn't tell them I was gay!) ;)

Into the 2000s where labour laws and discrimination laws, etc, remove all reference to race, gender, sexual orientation and age, things could be perceived to be "fairer". However ... were they? Post secondary achievements are still required. So, that leaves jobs for candidates who had the financial backing to attend university as well as gain flying training. Certainly not a cheap venture!

The women hired today are just like the rest of us. Similar stores, similar background, similar hurdles jumped. Also, anecdotal, I see new hire classes have about 10% female pilots. More than before, but certainly not half.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ual763
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:46 pm

lebda wrote:
In response to the last couple of comments: this is exactly a part of why women don't want to be pilots. There are people constantly second-guessing them and saying "oh, you were just put up there because you're pretty/affirmative action/HR/blah blah blah", "you're taking qualified men's jobs", or God forbid the old "women are inferior pilots" spiel. It gets old quick. Aviation is very much a boy's club and women are often treated either like tokens who people are afraid to talk to or clueless hysterical idiots who need talking down to with little in between.


They literally get more points on their applications for being members of Women In Aviation International. So, yes they are getting special treatment. Like it or not, it is unfair.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
buzzard302
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:06 pm

I couldn't care less if it is a male or a female flying the airplane. What I do care about is that they are all equally qualified and vetted. Everyone should have an equal opportunity for the position, but the best qualifications should be the person chosen for the job. When that many lives are in the pilot's hands, it is important to be able to deal with any challenging circumstances. Hopefully the best candidate is flying the plane, regardless of gender. When hiring practices deviate from that, it is not in everyone's best interest.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:07 pm

Way back in the 1970s wasn't there a discrimination lawsuit whereby United had to interview a certain percentage of female applicants? At the time the number of female pilots with turbine time was close to nil so United had to alter its minimum hiring threshold to something on the order of 500 hours total time and a desire to fly. In the ensuing decades United has been perceived as being more female friendly. Somebody correct me but there is a reason United's seniority list has a higher percentage of female pilots.
 
smallmj
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:09 pm

Suddenly I have "Me and the Sky" from "Come From Away" going through my head.
Last edited by smallmj on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:30 pm

I'm not sure most of you on here realize just how much women have to put up with to be airline pilots. I know I didn't realize how pervasive the sexism is against female pilots until I happened to randomly get paired to fly with women on four trips over five weeks. Seeing it week after week finally made me realize it was much bigger than just a few idiots.

Just the comments from passengers were eye opening. Subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the were't fit to be mothers or had their priorities wrong for flying instead of staying home to raise kids, questions about their qualifications that I never get asked, assumptions that I did the landing if it felt bumpy (implying they didn't have the skill to handle windy conditions), etc...

Then there were comments from other employees. Rampers making sexist comments that I was lucky to be flying with a woman and asking if I'd tried to hook up with them, female flight attendants that privately told me they didn't think women should be pilots because they were too flaky or indecisive (generalizing their personality to half the people on earth), and one observation I'd noticed years before as a first officer that most gate agents assumed I was the captain even thought I had three stripes on my epaulettes and the women had four. That never seemed to happen when I flew with another man.

They all have to meet the minimum hiring standards set by the airline to get an interview. Those are the basic qualifications for the job. They have to pass the same interview and once hired the same training.
ual763 wrote:
Yeah, from what I hear now you can check whether you are a member of either WIAI (Women in Aviation International) or NGPA (National Gay Pilots Association) on the application…. If you are a member of one of these, you can check the corresponding box and you automatically have more points towards your application than someone whose not a member of said group.

You don't have to be a woman to join WIA, you don't have to be gay to join NGPA, and you don't have to be black to join OBAP (Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals). You can be a straight, white male and join all three. All you have to do is pay the membership fee. Of course, it would be nice if you gave a damn about their causes, but that's not necessary to join and check the box on the applications.

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

The FAA sets the regulatory minimum and the airline sets their own minimum qualifications. All the women granted interviews meet those standards. They are qualified.

I know a few of the zero turbine PIC women hired at my airline in the last few years and the truth is their resume had a lot more going for it than most others in the pile. Aviation degrees with stellar GPAs, internships with major airlines, volunteer work in their community, non-flying work at their regional airline like being on the hiring team or working in the safety department, etc... They did a lot to build a well rounded resume that shows more than just time in seat.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
N353SK
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:51 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
Just the comments from passengers were eye opening. Subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the were't fit to be mothers or had their priorities wrong for flying instead of staying home to raise kids, questions about their qualifications that I never get asked, assumptions that I did the landing if it felt bumpy (implying they didn't have the skill to handle windy conditions), etc...


I'll never forget my first trip with a female captain. We were walking through the terminal and a woman said to her husband, "I didn't think women were allowed to be pilots." I was shocked that a woman in the 2000s would have had this viewpoint, but apparently the captain had heard it all before. She quickly turned and snapped "you know, we can vote now too!"
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:51 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
I'm not sure most of you on here realize just how much women have to put up with to be airline pilots. I know I didn't realize how pervasive the sexism is against female pilots until I happened to randomly get paired to fly with women on four trips over five weeks. Seeing it week after week finally made me realize it was much bigger than just a few idiots.

Just the comments from passengers were eye opening. Subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the were't fit to be mothers or had their priorities wrong for flying instead of staying home to raise kids, questions about their qualifications that I never get asked, assumptions that I did the landing if it felt bumpy (implying they didn't have the skill to handle windy conditions), etc...

Then there were comments from other employees. Rampers making sexist comments that I was lucky to be flying with a woman and asking if I'd tried to hook up with them, female flight attendants that privately told me they didn't think women should be pilots because they were too flaky or indecisive (generalizing their personality to half the people on earth), and one observation I'd noticed years before as a first officer that most gate agents assumed I was the captain even thought I had three stripes on my epaulettes and the women had four. That never seemed to happen when I flew with another man.

They all have to meet the minimum hiring standards set by the airline to get an interview. Those are the basic qualifications for the job. They have to pass the same interview and once hired the same training.
ual763 wrote:
Yeah, from what I hear now you can check whether you are a member of either WIAI (Women in Aviation International) or NGPA (National Gay Pilots Association) on the application…. If you are a member of one of these, you can check the corresponding box and you automatically have more points towards your application than someone whose not a member of said group.

You don't have to be a woman to join WIA, you don't have to be gay to join NGPA, and you don't have to be black to join OBAP (Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals). You can be a straight, white male and join all three. All you have to do is pay the membership fee. Of course, it would be nice if you gave a damn about their causes, but that's not necessary to join and check the box on the applications.

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

The FAA sets the regulatory minimum and the airline sets their own minimum qualifications. All the women granted interviews meet those standards. They are qualified.

I know a few of the zero turbine PIC women hired at my airline in the last few years and the truth is their resume had a lot more going for it than most others in the pile. Aviation degrees with stellar GPAs, internships with major airlines, volunteer work in their community, non-flying work at their regional airline like being on the hiring team or working in the safety department, etc... They did a lot to build a well rounded resume that shows more than just time in seat.


Stellar GPA, internships and volunteer work isn't going to keep the passengers alive when she goes missed out of a circle at night in the mountains and pops a motor.

Aviation is a perfect example of people in charge, unable to do the work themselves setting those who do up for failure.

Pilots should be evaluating pilots. If youre that concerned about it, make the hiring committee female pilots, but they need to be pilots.

The obsession with minority groups in the west continues...
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2462
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:39 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
I'm not sure most of you on here realize just how much women have to put up with to be airline pilots. I know I didn't realize how pervasive the sexism is against female pilots until I happened to randomly get paired to fly with women on four trips over five weeks. Seeing it week after week finally made me realize it was much bigger than just a few idiots.

Just the comments from passengers were eye opening. Subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the were't fit to be mothers or had their priorities wrong for flying instead of staying home to raise kids, questions about their qualifications that I never get asked, assumptions that I did the landing if it felt bumpy (implying they didn't have the skill to handle windy conditions), etc...

Then there were comments from other employees. Rampers making sexist comments that I was lucky to be flying with a woman and asking if I'd tried to hook up with them, female flight attendants that privately told me they didn't think women should be pilots because they were too flaky or indecisive (generalizing their personality to half the people on earth), and one observation I'd noticed years before as a first officer that most gate agents assumed I was the captain even thought I had three stripes on my epaulettes and the women had four. That never seemed to happen when I flew with another man.

They all have to meet the minimum hiring standards set by the airline to get an interview. Those are the basic qualifications for the job. They have to pass the same interview and once hired the same training.
ual763 wrote:
Yeah, from what I hear now you can check whether you are a member of either WIAI (Women in Aviation International) or NGPA (National Gay Pilots Association) on the application…. If you are a member of one of these, you can check the corresponding box and you automatically have more points towards your application than someone whose not a member of said group.

You don't have to be a woman to join WIA, you don't have to be gay to join NGPA, and you don't have to be black to join OBAP (Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals). You can be a straight, white male and join all three. All you have to do is pay the membership fee. Of course, it would be nice if you gave a damn about their causes, but that's not necessary to join and check the box on the applications.

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

The FAA sets the regulatory minimum and the airline sets their own minimum qualifications. All the women granted interviews meet those standards. They are qualified.

I know a few of the zero turbine PIC women hired at my airline in the last few years and the truth is their resume had a lot more going for it than most others in the pile. Aviation degrees with stellar GPAs, internships with major airlines, volunteer work in their community, non-flying work at their regional airline like being on the hiring team or working in the safety department, etc... They did a lot to build a well rounded resume that shows more than just time in seat.


Stellar GPA, internships and volunteer work isn't going to keep the passengers alive when she goes missed out of a circle at night in the mountains and pops a motor.


What will keep you out of the mountains is following the engine out procedure provided by the airline's engineering performance department. If you can't follow those charts you won't survive simulator training.

Pretty much every resume in the pile at a major airline can follow a navigation chart, memorize and fly profiles, fly an approach to minimums, and all that other basic pilot stuff. In the US the military and regionals will weed out nearly all that can't fly an airplane, male or female. There's a few bad eggs that sneak through, and even then they often they get dismissed during training or the probationary period as a new hire at a major. At the major level it is much more about hiring the person, not just a pilot.

Aviation degrees with high GPAs and volunteer work at the regional level are good because you need pilots with a passion for aviation and a desire to serve. Someone has to fill all the other roles for pilots beyond the flight deck door. You need pilots that might be interested in some day being a simulator instructor, or training captain, or do work for tech publications revising company manuals, or being observers during safety audits, or mentoring new hire pilots, or being a public face of the company that goes to corporate events and appears in advertisements and safety videos, or volunteering on the numerous union committees.

Outside interests are good because they bring experience that can help with those other roles. Also, it's nice to fly with people that can hold a conversation about something besides airplanes. Four days of aviation talk and ranting about management can get old, even if you love flying.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10582
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:22 pm

How many male pilots got their turbine time by flying in the military, something that wasn't really an option for women until recently ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1510
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 pm

Aesma wrote:
How many male pilots got their turbine time by flying in the military, something that wasn't really an option for women until recently ?


Recently? It’s been 41 years since the first USAF UPT Class with women and 44 years since the USN’s first women pilots.

GF
 
benjjk
Posts: 308
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:23 am

Varsity1 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

If anything it has already gone too far. The southwest crash at LGA was a female captain hired with substandard experience. It's not a recipe for success.

Why aren't men recruited for female dominated jobs? Nursing, teaching? The majority of medical schools grads are already female..


This is what happens when pilots aren't allowed to be involved in the hiring process anymore. Now, HR reigns supreme unfortunately. They practically run the company.


On a material level, the biggest issue I see is females hired at the majors with no PIC experience at all. The last (and only) time they were calling the shots was doing touch and goes on their first solo. For a male this is unthinkable.

Are all females bad pilots? Not at all. Are all males good pilots? Most certainly not! What is bad are females getting white knighted to the 'front of the line' so fast they never gain any experience along the way. They are learning how to call the shots with your life on the line. Luckily there is probably a disadvantaged male in the right seat, who has more experience than his 'captain'.


To be an ATP with no PIC time since first solo is highly illegal and you should report the company to the FAA.

I agree with that pilots should always form a part of the selection committee, however part of the reason their influence has lessened is that many fixate on the candidate's flight hours. Of course that's one consideration but there are many other soft skills required to be a good pilot in a modern airline.

I am uneasy with quotas because if you dictate that 50% of new hires must be men, you will have all of these ill-fitting men getting jobs because of it, instead of a woman much better suited to the job :stirthepot:
 
777PHX
Posts: 809
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:45 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aesma wrote:
How many male pilots got their turbine time by flying in the military, something that wasn't really an option for women until recently ?


Recently? It’s been 41 years since the first USAF UPT Class with women and 44 years since the USN’s first women pilots.

GF


And women have been fighter pilots in both services since the early 90s.
 
Max Q
Posts: 6819
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:02 am

I’ve flown with a number of female pilots over the years and their abilities are just like male pilots



Ranging from very good to average,
personality wise, for the most part I
prefer them compared to the egotistical ***holes so commonly
found in the male pilot community !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
THY748i
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:15 am

While I have no insight in the hiring process of pilots, those are some pretty wild allegations, females being hired just for being females. Of course they come without any factual eveidence whatsoever.

Are there any statistics of the share of aviation accidents and incidents being attributed to female flight crew members?
 
ubeema
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:33 am

So glad the thousand of reports issued by NTSB (or foreign counterparts) have consistently identified pilots gender. On that front statistics are clear cut.
 
Max Q
Posts: 6819
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:07 pm

ubeema wrote:
So glad the thousand of reports issued by NTSB (or foreign counterparts) have consistently identified pilots gender. On that front statistics are clear cut.



Are they ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 7568
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:34 pm

THY748i wrote:
While I have no insight in the hiring process of pilots, those are some pretty wild allegations, females being hired just for being females. Of course they come without any factual eveidence whatsoever.

Are there any statistics of the share of aviation accidents and incidents being attributed to female flight crew members?


I think the allegation could come as some airlines take a higher percentage of the female applicants and that white male pilots would assume that that would not be based on merit. My experience with women in technical areas is, that the ones who apply are on average pretty good, being already the passionate subset of the woman who could apply.
 
ChasChandler
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:00 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:53 pm

This is an interesting topic because it's not just airline pilots where women are being encouraged to participate in, but a whole slew of career fields like the STEM's, women are being encouraged to join. As a father of four daughters, part of me thinks this is great while another part questions the motives of the people encouraging these policies. At some point with all of these groups pushing and pulling at women to join their selective ranks, there's a biological reality that somebody has to produce the next generation. Having one kid I suppose is better than none, but we need women to have multiple children to ensure all industries have an acceptable amount of employees to keep them strong and vibrant. Unfortunately for women, their child bearing years coincide with years an airline pilots needs hours in the cockpit to train and learn their profession.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:19 pm

ChasChandler wrote:
This is an interesting topic because it's not just airline pilots where women are being encouraged to participate in, but a whole slew of career fields like the STEM's, women are being encouraged to join. As a father of four daughters, part of me thinks this is great while another part questions the motives of the people encouraging these policies. At some point with all of these groups pushing and pulling at women to join their selective ranks, there's a biological reality that somebody has to produce the next generation. Having one kid I suppose is better than none, but we need women to have multiple children to ensure all industries have an acceptable amount of employees to keep them strong and vibrant. Unfortunately for women, their child bearing years coincide with years an airline pilots needs hours in the cockpit to train and learn their profession.


I think we need to stop with leftist social engineering and forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The barrier to entry is already pretty low between men and women. Companies are not hiring on skill alone, they are hiring on skill and other political factors.

There is a small crowd of activists that want to see 50% plus women in suspisciously only high paying jobs without regard to suitability. They would have military units that are 100% women nevermind the Marines did a study and found a 90%+ loss rate compared to all male units. There's a reason why there are men's sports and women's sports. You will notice that they will never push 50%+ women in dirty jobs like crab fishing, garbage collector, sewer cleaners, construction, roofing, etc. it's always the easy jobs like CEO. True equality sucks because women would quickly find out that men have always gotten the shorter end of the stick.., more men die at work, more men die in war, more men get raped, more men get testicular cancer than women get breast cancer, men die at a younger age, and men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines.

Those pushing these "equality of outcome" agendas are simply sexist.
 
Tucker1
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:46 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
Just as a side note. United has the most women pilots of any airline in the world, and by a fairly large margin, in the US.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... aphic/amp/


Must be a graphic or statistic based on very limited information. If India has 12% female commercial pilots, than there must be some airlines in India far outpacing United.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bishopjord ... d6501d469d

It seems that Spice jet and Indigo are two of the airlines outpacing United.


He did say United has the highest percentage of female pilots in the US, not the entire world.
 
ewt340
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:52 pm

greendot wrote:
ChasChandler wrote:
This is an interesting topic because it's not just airline pilots where women are being encouraged to participate in, but a whole slew of career fields like the STEM's, women are being encouraged to join. As a father of four daughters, part of me thinks this is great while another part questions the motives of the people encouraging these policies. At some point with all of these groups pushing and pulling at women to join their selective ranks, there's a biological reality that somebody has to produce the next generation. Having one kid I suppose is better than none, but we need women to have multiple children to ensure all industries have an acceptable amount of employees to keep them strong and vibrant. Unfortunately for women, their child bearing years coincide with years an airline pilots needs hours in the cockpit to train and learn their profession.


I think we need to stop with leftist social engineering and forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The barrier to entry is already pretty low between men and women. Companies are not hiring on skill alone, they are hiring on skill and other political factors.

There is a small crowd of activists that want to see 50% plus women in suspisciously only high paying jobs without regard to suitability. They would have military units that are 100% women nevermind the Marines did a study and found a 90%+ loss rate compared to all male units. There's a reason why there are men's sports and women's sports. You will notice that they will never push 50%+ women in dirty jobs like crab fishing, garbage collector, sewer cleaners, construction, roofing, etc. it's always the easy jobs like CEO. True equality sucks because women would quickly find out that men have always gotten the shorter end of the stick.., more men die at work, more men die in war, more men get raped, more men get testicular cancer than women get breast cancer, men die at a younger age, and men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines.

Those pushing these "equality of outcome" agendas are simply sexist.


I think we need to stop with the Conservative ideas of how the world should just stop developing and freeze because it doesn't fit into your dated ideology. There is clearly a valid reason for Encouraging women to become pilots. It's called pilot shortages. The fact that many airlines have to slowed down or even stop their expansion because of the lack of qualified pilots should have been a dead giveaway. Encouraging more people wouldn't hurt anybody. Looking at the situation now, encouraging women to become a pilot wouldn't stop airlines from hiring male pilots since the shortages situation is actually happening.

These airlines around the world want more female to try to become a pilot because of the shortages, not because of Ideology, so please, stop making these stupid assumptions.

More men die at work and in a war because for thousands of years women are not allowed to actually have a job or go to war because they are seen as baby maker. They're not allowed to go to war because Men can't get pregnant not because Men treasure women more than Men, this could be proven by how only men can carry family last name for starter.
As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc.
Encouraging women to enter industries dominated by men would help women to enter jobs with higher risk like their male counterparts did, like being in a military, cops, firefighters, electricians, etc.
It means that it would help lower the percentages of men who died in their work don't you think?

Also, I don't see how which gender get more cancer (not just breast cancer or testicular cancer, how about ovarian cancer?) would make it better or easier than the other gender. How about heart attack? how about stroke? how about tumor?
These things doesn't make sense at all when you try to applied it to the female pilots arguments.

And I need Citation on these claims: "more men get raped, men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines."
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:00 pm

ewt340 wrote:
greendot wrote:
ChasChandler wrote:
This is an interesting topic because it's not just airline pilots where women are being encouraged to participate in, but a whole slew of career fields like the STEM's, women are being encouraged to join. As a father of four daughters, part of me thinks this is great while another part questions the motives of the people encouraging these policies. At some point with all of these groups pushing and pulling at women to join their selective ranks, there's a biological reality that somebody has to produce the next generation. Having one kid I suppose is better than none, but we need women to have multiple children to ensure all industries have an acceptable amount of employees to keep them strong and vibrant. Unfortunately for women, their child bearing years coincide with years an airline pilots needs hours in the cockpit to train and learn their profession.


I think we need to stop with leftist social engineering and forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The barrier to entry is already pretty low between men and women. Companies are not hiring on skill alone, they are hiring on skill and other political factors.

There is a small crowd of activists that want to see 50% plus women in suspisciously only high paying jobs without regard to suitability. They would have military units that are 100% women nevermind the Marines did a study and found a 90%+ loss rate compared to all male units. There's a reason why there are men's sports and women's sports. You will notice that they will never push 50%+ women in dirty jobs like crab fishing, garbage collector, sewer cleaners, construction, roofing, etc. it's always the easy jobs like CEO. True equality sucks because women would quickly find out that men have always gotten the shorter end of the stick.., more men die at work, more men die in war, more men get raped, more men get testicular cancer than women get breast cancer, men die at a younger age, and men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines.

Those pushing these "equality of outcome" agendas are simply sexist.


I think we need to stop with the Conservative ideas of how the world should just stop developing and freeze because it doesn't fit into your dated ideology. There is clearly a valid reason for Encouraging women to become pilots. It's called pilot shortages. The fact that many airlines have to slowed down or even stop their expansion because of the lack of qualified pilots should have been a dead giveaway. Encouraging more people wouldn't hurt anybody. Looking at the situation now, encouraging women to become a pilot wouldn't stop airlines from hiring male pilots since the shortages situation is actually happening.

These airlines around the world want more female to try to become a pilot because of the shortages, not because of Ideology, so please, stop making these stupid assumptions.

More men die at work and in a war because for thousands of years women are not allowed to actually have a job or go to war because they are seen as baby maker. They're not allowed to go to war because Men can't get pregnant not because Men treasure women more than Men, this could be proven by how only men can carry family last name for starter.
As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc.
Encouraging women to enter industries dominated by men would help women to enter jobs with higher risk like their male counterparts did, like being in a military, cops, firefighters, electricians, etc.
It means that it would help lower the percentages of men who died in their work don't you think?

Also, I don't see how which gender get more cancer (not just breast cancer or testicular cancer, how about ovarian cancer?) would make it better or easier than the other gender. How about heart attack? how about stroke? how about tumor?
These things doesn't make sense at all when you try to applied it to the female pilots arguments.

And I need Citation on these claims: "more men get raped, men don't get preferential hiring treatment at airlines."


You can encourage women all you want, just don't force them when they choose to be housewives and mothers. I'm a STEM person myself and have observed firsthand that women largely make the choice you don't want, even when they get a free ride in STEM. There have been several programs at many universities where women are given incredible privileges just to enroll vs. none given to men. Yet, women still go to liberal arts as a statistical majority. Men and women are scientifically not the same. If women wanted to do those kinds of jobs, they wouldn't need to be "encouraged". Did you ever consider that?

You can call yourself a modern person but change for the sake of change is not a recipe for making the most intelligent decision. Should we destroy the family unit because it is traditional? This is a grand social experiment and it's not really working out well for women. Have you ever seen any of the studies done where women rate their happiness? It's funny how self proclaimed modern people can't accomplish your social engineering without being sexist in your ideology.

Also, "As a modern person, I encourage women to get into all industries, from mechanics, pilots, race car drivers, etc."... then why is there such an asymmetric push for women to get into easier/higher paying jobs vs. traditional dirty jobs? I don't see any free handouts for women to become trash collectors, sewer cleaners, crab fishermen, home construction laborers, welders, roofers, electricians, foundry workers, battery recycling technicians, etc. We don't need more progressive politics in the workforce. We need workers period. If women want to apply, let them. Don't brainwash them pro or against.

As for pilot shortages. There is no such thing. I'm in the business and I know all the real numbers far better than most anyone here. There is only a shortage of people willing to work for substandard wages. You could solve the regional airline pilot problem by paying at least $75k starting instead of $17k starting. Also, they could make VAST improvements in quality of life. Right now, you spend well over 3/4 of your life away from home. And, it's not just being at work for 8 hrs/day.. it's 24 hrs per day being away from home. Being an airline pilot is a horrible job until you get seniority at a major airline. No one in their right mind would ever enter the job if they could make more money at Home Depot while being home at night. Pilots need the education of a STEM background in order to truly be competent and no one with a STEM background will work at grossly substandard wages. It has NOTHING to do with gender.

We need to ONLY look at outcome when hiring. It is SEXIST to consider gender when hiring. I find it highly sexist and offensive that airlines go fill HR quotas at places like Women in Aviation career fairs rather than avoiding that kind of thing and only looking at their metrics blindly. HR words like "inclusiveness" and "diversity" are code for social engineering based on outcome equality rather than fair treatment and true equality.

I've been an instructor and supervisor to many men and women. I treat them no differently. Let each individual stand on their own merits rather than pushing someone just because they are a woman.
 
greendot
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:03 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Also, I don't see how which gender get more cancer (not just breast cancer or testicular cancer, how about ovarian cancer?) would make it better or easier than the other gender. How about heart attack? how about stroke? how about tumor?


I mentioned this to demonstrate the notion that in social circles, certain special interests make more noise. For example, have you noticed how airlines trumpet whenever you have a "first ever" all female crew? Who cares? Only sexist people with a social agenda.

It is better to be blind about race, religion, and gender. That is true equality.
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:08 pm

Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.
 
User avatar
NeBaNi
Topic Author
Posts: 351
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:45 am

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:44 am

sixfootscream wrote:
Aviation is a hard field to work in. It is shift work, long hours, high stress and has very little rewards. Being a pilot is tough and expensive to get there, few people can afford it. I quit my pilot training because of the cost. So it might attract less women because it is a tough career/field to be in. I always joke I wouldn't let my kids into aviation and I will use my aviation career to encourage them to study hard.

This part reminds me of QR CEO Akbar Al-Baker's quote on why women cannot lead arilines.
“Of course it has to be led by a man, because it is a very challenging position.”

From: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/business/qatar-airways-akbar-al-baker-women.html
Not sure I agree with the argument that tough careers attract less women.
 
Max Q
Posts: 6819
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:16 am

Who is ‘forcing’ women to become pilots ?!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Tucker1
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Female Pilots in Commercial Aviation

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
I'm not sure most of you on here realize just how much women have to put up with to be airline pilots. I know I didn't realize how pervasive the sexism is against female pilots until I happened to randomly get paired to fly with women on four trips over five weeks. Seeing it week after week finally made me realize it was much bigger than just a few idiots.

Just the comments from passengers were eye opening. Subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the were't fit to be mothers or had their priorities wrong for flying instead of staying home to raise kids, questions about their qualifications that I never get asked, assumptions that I did the landing if it felt bumpy (implying they didn't have the skill to handle windy conditions), etc...

Then there were comments from other employees. Rampers making sexist comments that I was lucky to be flying with a woman and asking if I'd tried to hook up with them, female flight attendants that privately told me they didn't think women should be pilots because they were too flaky or indecisive (generalizing their personality to half the people on earth), and one observation I'd noticed years before as a first officer that most gate agents assumed I was the captain even thought I had three stripes on my epaulettes and the women had four. That never seemed to happen when I flew with another man.

They all have to meet the minimum hiring standards set by the airline to get an interview. Those are the basic qualifications for the job. They have to pass the same interview and once hired the same training.
ual763 wrote:
Yeah, from what I hear now you can check whether you are a member of either WIAI (Women in Aviation International) or NGPA (National Gay Pilots Association) on the application…. If you are a member of one of these, you can check the corresponding box and you automatically have more points towards your application than someone whose not a member of said group.

You don't have to be a woman to join WIA, you don't have to be gay to join NGPA, and you don't have to be black to join OBAP (Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals). You can be a straight, white male and join all three. All you have to do is pay the membership fee. Of course, it would be nice if you gave a damn about their causes, but that's not necessary to join and check the box on the applications.

Varsity1 wrote:
Unqualified women pilots are already hired over substantially more qualified males.

The FAA sets the regulatory minimum and the airline sets their own minimum qualifications. All the women granted interviews meet those standards. They are qualified.

I know a few of the zero turbine PIC women hired at my airline in the last few years and the truth is their resume had a lot more going for it than most others in the pile. Aviation degrees with stellar GPAs, internships with major airlines, volunteer work in their community, non-flying work at their regional airline like being on the hiring team or working in the safety department, etc... They did a lot to build a well rounded resume that shows more than just time in seat.


Stellar GPA, internships and volunteer work isn't going to keep the passengers alive when she goes missed out of a circle at night in the mountains and pops a motor.

Aviation is a perfect example of people in charge, unable to do the work themselves setting those who do up for failure.

Pilots should be evaluating pilots. If youre that concerned about it, make the hiring committee female pilots, but they need to be pilots.

The obsession with minority groups in the west continues...


You sir, are an ass.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GalaxyFlyer, Zeke2517 and 18 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos