SRQKEF wrote:

enilria wrote:

I hadn't seen this number, but Icelandair's market cap is $454 million USD. It sounds like the deal is for 3.5-5% of Icelandair. That means WOW is being bought for between $16m and 23m USD. This article splits the difference at $18m. Pennies...

** Icelandair Group said it had agreed to acquire WOW air for about $18 million in an all-share deal.
https://www.reuters.com/article/deals-d ... SL4N1XG39R

On top of that, only around $5 million are guaranteed, with the rest depending on the result of the due diligence report. As you said, pennies in relation to what FI gets out of it in terms of slots, market share and access to aircraft.

They are going to get lot of debt and other commitments also, does someone know how much? Acquisition price tell us that this was last chance for WOW before bankruptcy.

What's FI's detailed plan? Would it consolidate 2nd tier destinations to WOW (e.g. Cleveland, Kansas City, etc.)? Does WOW really need to keep the A330?

The combined group would have 737MAX, 757, 767, 787, A320/321, A320/321NEO and A333. This would be a messy mix and there will be opportunities for fleet rationalization. WOW can be kept as a separate brand, but having a rationalized fleet across the two would still be beneficial from training and maintenance perspective.

The requirement of the combined group can be handled with a mix of A320/321NEO/A321LR and 787, no?

raylee67 wrote:

What's FI's detailed plan? Would it consolidate 2nd tier destinations to WOW (e.g. Cleveland, Kansas City, etc.)? Does WOW really need to keep the A330?

The combined group would have 737MAX, 757, 767, 787, A320/321, A320/321NEO and A333. This would be a messy mix and there will be opportunities for fleet rationalization. WOW can be kept as a separate brand, but having a rationalized fleet across the two would still be beneficial from training and maintenance perspective.

The requirement of the combined group can be handled with a mix of A320/321NEO/A321LR and 787, no?

I’ve said it here umpteen times before: FI has no 787s on order, there is one listed on Wikipedia, but it has been committed elsewhere.

My money is on some kind of NB/WB combo where the A330neo is always the widebody in the equation.

I think a large portion of WOW's fleet is leased and will be returned over time.

Someone call MOL, he was right!

raylee67 wrote:

What's FI's detailed plan? Would it consolidate 2nd tier destinations to WOW (e.g. Cleveland, Kansas City, etc.)? Does WOW really need to keep the A330?

The combined group would have 737MAX, 757, 767, 787, A320/321, A320/321NEO and A333. This would be a messy mix and there will be opportunities for fleet rationalization. WOW can be kept as a separate brand, but having a rationalized fleet across the two would still be beneficial from training and maintenance perspective.

The requirement of the combined group can be handled with a mix of A320/321NEO/A321LR and 787, no?

FI is only suppose to take a single (as in 1) 787, correct? Those A330 can easily just take over routes that are flown by those 763s?

Those 757 will stay until they literally cannot fly anymore. A321/321neo will compliment the 757s. I'm thinking 737MAX taking over as the "main" smaller narrowbody eventually. On larger plane side, perhaps a mixed bag for short term, and eventually move to all A330s?

Ultimately, a little bit of a "Wow" (Pun intended), but not totally out of the blue, for the FI-WW merger. Investors are clearly loving it, though, seeing how much FI's stock went up. One less competitor = get the whole market for themselves.

Varsity1 wrote:

Someone call MOL, he was right!

Please don’t, his ego doesn’t need more inflation!

To be fair, this one was a pretty easy one to call if you followed their operation closely. Them not being viable in their current form, that is. FI came in out of left field!

SRQKEF wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

What's FI's detailed plan? Would it consolidate 2nd tier destinations to WOW (e.g. Cleveland, Kansas City, etc.)? Does WOW really need to keep the A330?

The combined group would have 737MAX, 757, 767, 787, A320/321, A320/321NEO and A333. This would be a messy mix and there will be opportunities for fleet rationalization. WOW can be kept as a separate brand, but having a rationalized fleet across the two would still be beneficial from training and maintenance perspective.

The requirement of the combined group can be handled with a mix of A320/321NEO/A321LR and 787, no?

I’ve said it here umpteen times before: FI has no 787s on order, there is one listed on Wikipedia, but it has been committed elsewhere.

My money is on some kind of NB/WB combo where the A330neo is always the widebody in the equation.

The one 787-8 is listed on the Boeing website. There is no question about that Icelandair has one 787-8 on order. If it for use at Icelandair or somewhere else is a different question.

zakuivcustom wrote:

One less competitor = get the whole market for themselves.

That depends on how one defines market. I suspect most of the relevant regulators will define it as xxx-KEF-yyy, not as XXX-KEF. How much of Icelandair's revenue is KEF O&D, really? They have some competition even in that.

mjoelnir wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

What's FI's detailed plan? Would it consolidate 2nd tier destinations to WOW (e.g. Cleveland, Kansas City, etc.)? Does WOW really need to keep the A330?

The combined group would have 737MAX, 757, 767, 787, A320/321, A320/321NEO and A333. This would be a messy mix and there will be opportunities for fleet rationalization. WOW can be kept as a separate brand, but having a rationalized fleet across the two would still be beneficial from training and maintenance perspective.

The requirement of the combined group can be handled with a mix of A320/321NEO/A321LR and 787, no?

I’ve said it here umpteen times before: FI has no 787s on order, there is one listed on Wikipedia, but it has been committed elsewhere.

My money is on some kind of NB/WB combo where the A330neo is always the widebody in the equation.

The one 787-8 is listed on the Boeing website. There is no question about that Icelandair has one 787-8 on order. If it for use at Icelandair or somewhere else is a different question.

You are correct that it is still on FI’s books, but I have it on good authority FI has a deal to either lease it out or sell onwards (and have had for years). That 787 order was made at the peak of the pre-financial crash circus in 2006-2007 and FI quickly found ways to get rid of it once it had gone through restructuring following the crash. So, while it is still technically listed as a future FI frame, it will most definitely either end up at Loftleidir or a different airline entirely.

regards!
Sveinn

armchairceonr1 wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

enilria wrote:

I hadn't seen this number, but Icelandair's market cap is $454 million USD. It sounds like the deal is for 3.5-5% of Icelandair. That means WOW is being bought for between $16m and 23m USD. This article splits the difference at $18m. Pennies...

** Icelandair Group said it had agreed to acquire WOW air for about $18 million in an all-share deal.
https://www.reuters.com/article/deals-d ... SL4N1XG39R

On top of that, only around $5 million are guaranteed, with the rest depending on the result of the due diligence report. As you said, pennies in relation to what FI gets out of it in terms of slots, market share and access to aircraft.

They are going to get lot of debt and other commitments also, does someone know how much? Acquisition price tell us that this was last chance for WOW before bankruptcy.

Sure, but the owner will only get this pittance. I wonder if he even made money on this deal.

mjoelnir wrote:

Lapplander800 wrote:

As far as a merger goes, I doubt that will happen. Group ownership no problem but a merger that results in a 80% Monopoly?

That is why Bluebird Cargo was firewalled from Icelandair and could never be integrated or otherwise merged. Eventually Bluebird got sold off and is now an independent identity again.

27 airlines fly to Keflavík airport apart from WOW, Icelandair and Air Iceland Connect. All three US3 from the USA. Air Canada from Canada. Air Greenland from Greenland. That leaves 22 airlines from Europe. Even with WOW gone, you find few airports of this size, with a heavier competition.

Bluebird was a different case, there is far less competition regarding cargo from and to KEF. There is Bluebird Cargo and there is Icelandair Cargo.

Icelandair's chairman seems not to have shared your optimism on monopoly issues in the not so distant past;
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... F150744%2F

crescent wrote:

Looks like a distressed sale on the part of WW to me.

It's definitely a fire sale. The WOW shareholders might end up with nearly 5% of Icelandair Group but they might also end up with ZERO depending on due diligence. You don't agree to give up your shares with a condition like that unless there's only one buyer and your other remaining option is likely liquidation. The other recipient of equity holds a subordinated loan and they're getting about $5 million in Icelandair shares for that -- almost certainly aurar on the króna.

Lapplander800 wrote:

As far as a merger goes, I doubt that will happen. Group ownership no problem but a merger that results in a 80% Monopoly?

Well, FI & WW have 80% of total traffic at KEF but far under that percentage of passengers starting or ending their trip in Iceland. The Icelandic competition authorities are likely to be less concerned about the broader transatlantic market and WOW had a relatively tiny share of that in any event.

Moreover, the consideration being offered in this merger leads me to believe that Icelandair & WOW will almost certainly invoke the failing firm defense; i.e. without the takeover, WOW would fail anyway, so the impact on competition is the same with or without the transaction. Consequently, it's more beneficial to preserve at least some of the jobs and capacity provided by WOW and avoid the disruption which would be caused by a likely failure of WOW.

GalebG4 wrote:

They might use Primera a321neos. It would probably be cheaper to fly leased a321neo then old B757.

During the high season, yes. During the low season, the old 757s and 767s have a huge advantage in that they are long since paid-for and can be parked for months without incurring an expensive lease payment. They've also got 7M9s on order and there are very few markets in which the A321neo would be necessary rather than the 7M9 or 7M10 (they likely have rights to substitute if desired). I see the 757s and 767s sticking around for a while simply because they're quite useful for providing peak season capacity while not bleeding cash in the winter.

enilria wrote:

Sure, but the owner will only get this pittance. I wonder if he even made money on this deal.

I would bet Skuli proves the adage that the best way to become a millionaire is to be a multi-millionaire and then start an airline.

SRQKEF wrote:

Lapplander800 wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

FI is by no means a financially challenged airline. Look up their financial statements for 2013-2017 and their equity status. Did they have a bad Q1 and Q2 of 2018? Sure. But they're by no means in the same boat as WOW was, as evidenced by today's takeover.

I have no doubts that FI will come out of this a stronger airline with a clear strategy and more control over their hub in KEF.

And yes, I agree that the title should be changed to takeover. I wrote it up quickly to get it on here just after I saw the news in Icelandic media, but the details that have come out since confirm that this is indeed a takeover.

2018Q3 didn't smell like roses either.

62 million USD profit and 115 million USD EBITDA? While below expectations, those numbers still mean FI is more likely than not to finish 2018 with a profit. Coupled with a strong equity situation and large cash reserves, there aren't any alarm bells ringing nor should there be.

Given the size of their balance sheet that would not make me as an investor happy for a Q3 that should be the very best of best. You saw the operating margin and 9M numbers (and compare to so other nice numbers in this buisness). Couple that with the market flooding with unsustainable fares being sold in desperation (some of which will be solved IF Icelandair Group is going to be allowed control of WOW), 6 meager months ahead, financing 6 new planes and now having to float an operation that was essentially insolvent.... this is going to get much messier before it gets better.

Icelandair is not going out of business anytime soon, a monumental amount of inaction and incompetency would be required for that to happen. Before this event Icelandair Group had some nice cards to play financially but that does not mean the problems can be ignored and it stated that everything is just fine. This takeover ups the risk and complexity. It is harder to change course now than it was in during very rough periods around 2002 and 2009 when the company was much smaller, with fewer commitments. The company came out of those periods stronger than before so we will see.

That's aviation for you, it is a hard and risky endeavor.

Lets just park the Dubai of the North phrase for a while.

Lapplander800 wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

Lapplander800 wrote:

As far as a merger goes, I doubt that will happen. Group ownership no problem but a merger that results in a 80% Monopoly?

That is why Bluebird Cargo was firewalled from Icelandair and could never be integrated or otherwise merged. Eventually Bluebird got sold off and is now an independent identity again.

27 airlines fly to Keflavík airport apart from WOW, Icelandair and Air Iceland Connect. All three US3 from the USA. Air Canada from Canada. Air Greenland from Greenland. That leaves 22 airlines from Europe. Even with WOW gone, you find few airports of this size, with a heavier competition.

Bluebird was a different case, there is far less competition regarding cargo from and to KEF. There is Bluebird Cargo and there is Icelandair Cargo.

Icelandair's chairman seems not to have shared your optimism on monopoly issues in the not so distant past;
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... F150744%2F

They are going to have to scream from the rooftops that WOW is about to liquidate. That will hurt bookings.

Lapplander800 wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

Lapplander800 wrote:

2018Q3 didn't smell like roses either.

62 million USD profit and 115 million USD EBITDA? While below expectations, those numbers still mean FI is more likely than not to finish 2018 with a profit. Coupled with a strong equity situation and large cash reserves, there aren't any alarm bells ringing nor should there be.

Given the size of their balance sheet that would not make me as an investor happy for a Q3 that should be the very best of best. You saw the operating margin and 9M numbers (and compare to so other nice numbers in this buisness). Couple that with the market flooding with unsustainable fares being sold in desperation (some of which will be solved IF Icelandair Group is going to be allowed control of WOW), 6 meager months ahead, financing 6 new planes and now having to float an operation that was essentially insolvent.... this is going to get much messier before it gets better.

Icelandair is not going out of business anytime soon, a monumental amount of inaction and incompetency would be required for that to happen. Before this event Icelandair Group had some nice cards to play financially but that does not mean the problems can be ignored and it stated that everything is just fine. This takeover ups the risk and complexity. It is harder to change course now than it was in during very rough periods around 2002 and 2009 when the company was much smaller, with fewer commitments. The company came out of those periods stronger than before so we will see.

That's aviation for you, it is a hard and risky endeavor.

Lets just park the Dubai of the North phrase for a while.

The investors are not happy, but there is quite a distance between the investors not being happy and a company in dire straits.

With CASK ex fuel of 3 U.S cents WOW was one of the cheapest long haul airlines on the Atlantic. I honestly thought that Indigo Partners would buy that airline. But who knows what would happen if Icelandair didn’t step in. Let’s hope they will make better product and even more develop WOW. Icelandair owns about 90% of its fleet, but with 6 aircraft types is a lot for even bigger airline.

As much as I loved coming home from Circuit Barcelona for next to nothing on WW, a $290 fare from BCN to LAX in mid-August was clearly too good to be true. I went on to bid the absolute minimum for an upgrade to the XL seat on the KEF-LAX sector ($90 IIRC) and got that as well. When even the likes of Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines were charging significantly higher fares, in spite of their currency advantages, I figured WOW air's days were numbered. If I was paying that little to fly them up front during the busy summer travel season, how much have people been paying during the less popular months?

I'm sure plenty of folks in Iceland were concerned about the viability of WW, let alone the strain on facilities at KEF and FI's finances. This move seemingly allays all of those concerns - allowing Iceland to focus on developing one strong, viable carrier that works in tandem with the nation's tourism industry.

SRQKEF wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

I’ve said it here umpteen times before: FI has no 787s on order, there is one listed on Wikipedia, but it has been committed elsewhere.

My money is on some kind of NB/WB combo where the A330neo is always the widebody in the equation.

The one 787-8 is listed on the Boeing website. There is no question about that Icelandair has one 787-8 on order. If it for use at Icelandair or somewhere else is a different question.

You are correct that it is still on FI’s books, but I have it on good authority FI has a deal to either lease it out or sell onwards (and have had for years). That 787 order was made at the peak of the pre-financial crash circus in 2006-2007 and FI quickly found ways to get rid of it once it had gone through restructuring following the crash. So, while it is still technically listed as a future FI frame, it will most definitely either end up at Loftleidir or a different airline entirely.

regards!
Sveinn

You were talking about that the one 787-8 on order would be a Wikipedia fail. That is patently untrue. Icelandair ordered 5 787-8 and offloaded 4 to Norwegian making a profit. Icelandair has bought frames before without using them themselves. So you could be right that Icelandair will not use it themselves. Icelandair has a history of ordering frames and not using them for there own routes. But that does not make the order disappear. I am sure Boeing would gladly take that order off Icelandair's hands, but Icelandair seem to rather keep that order. Icelandair ordered early and for a good price.

I would assume having bought WOW and likely taking the 2 A330-900 on order in the near future, I expect Icelandair to evaluate the A330-300 and -900 first, before thinking about 787.

mjoelnir wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

The one 787-8 is listed on the Boeing website. There is no question about that Icelandair has one 787-8 on order. If it for use at Icelandair or somewhere else is a different question.

You are correct that it is still on FI’s books, but I have it on good authority FI has a deal to either lease it out or sell onwards (and have had for years). That 787 order was made at the peak of the pre-financial crash circus in 2006-2007 and FI quickly found ways to get rid of it once it had gone through restructuring following the crash. So, while it is still technically listed as a future FI frame, it will most definitely either end up at Loftleidir or a different airline entirely.

regards!
Sveinn

You were talking about that the one 787-8 on order would be a Wikipedia fail. That is patently untrue. Icelandair ordered 5 787-8 and offloaded 4 to Norwegian making a profit. Icelandair has bought frames before without using them themselves. So you could be right that Icelandair will not use it themselves. Icelandair has a history of ordering frames and not using them for there own routes. But that does not make the order disappear. I am sure Boeing would gladly take that order off Icelandair's hands, but Icelandair seem to rather keep that order. Icelandair ordered early and for a good price.

I would assume having bought WOW and likely taking the 2 A330-900 on order in the near future, I expect Icelandair to evaluate the A330-300 and -900 first, before thinking about 787.

Agreed re A330. And sorry if I came off rude or unclear, I was commenting on the fact FI will definitely not use that 788 for themselves - which makes sense because a orphan fleet of one 787-8 makes no sense at all for them. It is indeed still on the books at Boeing though.

An old Iceland Air mechanic in Keflavik just told me about this in a pub. He claims it's just to get the assets and rid themselves of the competition, and WOW will cease within a year and a half.

It seems like eventually they will consolidate all of the fleet into one livery / identity instead of keeping WOW separate. Maybe they will add some more A330s for west coast expansion?

SRQKEF wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

You are correct that it is still on FI’s books, but I have it on good authority FI has a deal to either lease it out or sell onwards (and have had for years). That 787 order was made at the peak of the pre-financial crash circus in 2006-2007 and FI quickly found ways to get rid of it once it had gone through restructuring following the crash. So, while it is still technically listed as a future FI frame, it will most definitely either end up at Loftleidir or a different airline entirely.

regards!
Sveinn

You were talking about that the one 787-8 on order would be a Wikipedia fail. That is patently untrue. Icelandair ordered 5 787-8 and offloaded 4 to Norwegian making a profit. Icelandair has bought frames before without using them themselves. So you could be right that Icelandair will not use it themselves. Icelandair has a history of ordering frames and not using them for there own routes. But that does not make the order disappear. I am sure Boeing would gladly take that order off Icelandair's hands, but Icelandair seem to rather keep that order. Icelandair ordered early and for a good price.

I would assume having bought WOW and likely taking the 2 A330-900 on order in the near future, I expect Icelandair to evaluate the A330-300 and -900 first, before thinking about 787.

Agreed re A330. And sorry if I came off rude or unclear, I was commenting on the fact FI will definitely not use that 788 for themselves - which makes sense because a orphan fleet of one 787-8 makes no sense at all for them. It is indeed still on the books at Boeing though.

I was under the impression that Icelandair had already made a statement regarding the single B788 that it still has on order and that it intended to lease it to Air Niugini!

I'm not sure if that deal is still going ahead or if Icelandair do intend on taking the aircraft.

I'd expect them to eventually wind down WOW. Given it sounds like WOW leases their aircraft. There is no equity there and Icelandair can rid themselves of the lease costs. I would be interested in seeing if they can find a spot for the A330s. Certainly a step up from the 767s they run. If Icelandair requires the capacity I could see them dropping the leased A321s for leased 787 Max until they can purchase more.

Cunard wrote:

SRQKEF wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

You were talking about that the one 787-8 on order would be a Wikipedia fail. That is patently untrue. Icelandair ordered 5 787-8 and offloaded 4 to Norwegian making a profit. Icelandair has bought frames before without using them themselves. So you could be right that Icelandair will not use it themselves. Icelandair has a history of ordering frames and not using them for there own routes. But that does not make the order disappear. I am sure Boeing would gladly take that order off Icelandair's hands, but Icelandair seem to rather keep that order. Icelandair ordered early and for a good price.

I would assume having bought WOW and likely taking the 2 A330-900 on order in the near future, I expect Icelandair to evaluate the A330-300 and -900 first, before thinking about 787.

Agreed re A330. And sorry if I came off rude or unclear, I was commenting on the fact FI will definitely not use that 788 for themselves - which makes sense because a orphan fleet of one 787-8 makes no sense at all for them. It is indeed still on the books at Boeing though.

I was under the impression that Icelandair had already made a statement regarding the single B788 that it still has on order and that it intended to lease it to Air Niugini!

I'm not sure if that deal is still going ahead or if Icelandair do intend on taking the aircraft.

That was indeed the original plan, but somehow I seem to remember PX in the end decided against opening flights to the US (which were the reason they were taking a 788 IIRC). I'm not sure what the status of that is though. At least, I'm 100% positive that particular 787 won't fly in FI colors as things stand.

Somewhat sad to see, saw this after stepping off a WOW flight KEF-DTW, one of the best flights I can remember. Everything about the brand just seems so much friendlier than Icelandair, though I have not flown them. It really felt like they had the beginnings of something unique. Friendliest crews I've ever experienced, brand new planes, excellent value for money.

This was certainly a fast move. Predictable but sensible outcome. I agree with previous posts that there are some good opportunities in keeping both brands - removing competing flights, launch new markets from KEF, launch direct EU-US flights a la Primera, more connecting banks. I wish them good luck. Now, let's see if LEVEL is going to hang on....

haye5377 wrote:

Somewhat sad to see, saw this after stepping off a WOW flight KEF-DTW, one of the best flights I can remember. Everything about the brand just seems so much friendlier than Icelandair, though I have not flown them. It really felt like they had the beginnings of something unique. Friendliest crews I've ever experienced, brand new planes, excellent value for money.

So you're saying the brand is superior to Icelandair but you've never flown Icelandair? That's an.... interesting approach, and classic A.net.

Additionally, your post is very reminiscent of what many said about Virgin America, who were in many ways as equally unsustainable as WOW in this industry.

[threeid][/threeid]

Elementalism wrote:

I'd expect them to eventually wind down WOW. Given it sounds like WOW leases their aircraft. There is no equity there and Icelandair can rid themselves of the lease costs. I would be interested in seeing if they can find a spot for the A330s. Certainly a step up from the 767s they run. If Icelandair requires the capacity I could see them dropping the leased A321s for leased 787 Max until they can purchase more.

It is not always that easy to get rid of leasing contracts. As young as those frames are, I expect those leasing contracts to run a while longer. And I expect that Icelandair has to take a few more frames that are on order by WOW.
The other point is, that I expect Icelandair to be interested in the market that WOW presents. To fly those passengers you need capacity. The ordered 737MAX are earmarked for Icelandair's own capacity, so where would they get the additional 737MAX in the near future to exchange them for the A321?
I assume we see Icelandair and WOW side by side for a few years, flying both the Airbus and Boeing fleet and perhaps new decisions in a year or two.

One also has to take in account, that Icelandair has decided on big changes in regards of network and image for the near future. Some parts of the WOW setup you can look at as young and exiting. It is difficult to say at the moment which way Icelandair will jump.

Icelandair has also put their hotel chain up for sales, to concentrate more on the aviation business. That could give them capital for investments on the aviation side.

Anyone that thinks FI is going to keep the WW brand around long-term is smoking some bad stuff. WW customers are not profitable customers - why would FI be worried about serving them? This buyout is about rationalizing the Icelandic market - WW, long being the irrational actor in the market place, is going to take the hit.

winginit wrote:

haye5377 wrote:

Somewhat sad to see, saw this after stepping off a WOW flight KEF-DTW, one of the best flights I can remember. Everything about the brand just seems so much friendlier than Icelandair, though I have not flown them. It really felt like they had the beginnings of something unique. Friendliest crews I've ever experienced, brand new planes, excellent value for money.

So you're saying the brand is superior to Icelandair but you've never flown Icelandair? That's an.... interesting approach, and classic A.net.

Additionally, your post is very reminiscent of what many said about Virgin America, who were in many ways as equally unsustainable as WOW in this industry.

The brand, meaning the advertising, livery, etc. are far more appealing to me. I'm not comparing hard product. I've never had the opportunity to fly Icelandair, but I would consider them if they were cheaper than WOW, certainly.

usflyer msp wrote:

Anyone that thinks FI is going to keep the WW brand around long-term is smoking some bad stuff. WW customers are not profitable customers - why would FI be worried about serving them? This buyout is about rationalizing the Icelandic market - WW, long being the irrational actor in the market place, is going to take the hit.

Exactly. Why would Icelandair take over a losing concern? They'll break it up for parts because it has negative value as a separate entity.

Jeez, couldn't see this coming.

My wife and I and another couple did a trip to Iceland exactly 2 years ago on the WOW intro priced flights from SFO. Something like $160 roundtrip. Flight wasn't SO bad, but it helped that the flight was half full. (Also, my first A330 flight...bonus!) Flight times could NOT have been worse if they tried. After a couple of months they saw the light and adjusted timing. Max a la carte was fine, but paying for water is a little much.

Iceland in Fall was cool/cold but the Northern Lights didn't disappoint. (We even saw them from the plane, right before our ER nurse companion was drafted to help a fellow passenger who was puking all over himself.)

So this train wreck is reaching its inevitable conclusion. FI rids itself of a cash-burning insurgent and might find some useful scraps. Hopefully the employees don't get hosed.

winginit wrote:

haye5377 wrote:

Somewhat sad to see, saw this after stepping off a WOW flight KEF-DTW, one of the best flights I can remember. Everything about the brand just seems so much friendlier than Icelandair, though I have not flown them. It really felt like they had the beginnings of something unique. Friendliest crews I've ever experienced, brand new planes, excellent value for money.

So you're saying the brand is superior to Icelandair but you've never flown Icelandair? That's an.... interesting approach, and classic A.net.

Additionally, your post is very reminiscent of what many said about Virgin America, who were in many ways as equally unsustainable as WOW in this industry.

sounds like a sugar high.

I can't help but wonder if FI will use WW like a Tango, Level, or Eurowings. Maybe keep the FI brand on year-around, high stake markets and use WW for seasonal and newer markets. Maybe expand into Mexico, Caribbean, and South America...maybe Hawaii.

SurfandSnow wrote:

As much as I loved coming home from Circuit Barcelona for next to nothing on WW, a $290 fare from BCN to LAX in mid-August was clearly too good to be true. I went on to bid the absolute minimum for an upgrade to the XL seat on the KEF-LAX sector ($90 IIRC) and got that as well. When even the likes of Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines were charging significantly higher fares, in spite of their currency advantages, I figured WOW air's days were numbered. If I was paying that little to fly them up front during the busy summer travel season, how much have people been paying during the less popular months?

I think this is a good example of how KEF growth is very limited by the nature of the market. There is only a number of people that will fly via KEF specially when non-stop direct flights from the US and Europe are growing by the day and consequently prices are lower. So really no need to make a detour to fly via KEF.

KEF-LAX has no competition with Icelandair yet WOW needed to give tickets away. If WOW had used those assets in something like STN-LAX, they could have charged higher fares in that time of the year.

Basing 2 or 3 planes in STN to start with (EWR, BOS, BWI/IAD and maybe SFO/LAX) would be quite a risk-free way to expand outside Iceland and directly compete with Norwegian. IAG has tried the same with LEVEL and it seems it works. WOW Air is also a "nation-free" brand that works well everywhere and it is already relatively well-known, at least more than Primera Air.

Also Icelandair could combine both brands in their website like Ryanair does with Laudamotion. So someone could purchase STN-BOS on WOW and BOS-KEF-LGW in Icelandair in the same ticket.

zululima wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

Anyone that thinks FI is going to keep the WW brand around long-term is smoking some bad stuff. WW customers are not profitable customers - why would FI be worried about serving them? This buyout is about rationalizing the Icelandic market - WW, long being the irrational actor in the market place, is going to take the hit.

Exactly. Why would Icelandair take over a losing concern? They'll break it up for parts because it has negative value as a separate entity.

Icelandair Group will now have three Icelandic AOCs under its belt (FI/NY/WW). Defining a rational role for each of those without them cannibalizing on each other's business is going to be difficult. If they do keep WW separate I could see it as a providing capacity on high demand routes in high season while FI has the more stable year-round business. WOW did best when it stuck to large markets on each side of the Atlantic. Perhaps some point to point flying from Europe that bypasses KEF could also be in the picture. The problem with that is that the current fleet situation with each carrier is really the opposite of what it should be for that this to work and I don't see them completely flipping the fleets around (although the 757 could be pretty sexy in purple).

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Could this have been to avoid a competitor buying WOW?

Perhaps, though ya gotta wonder what competitor would *want* it.

The assets maybe... but investing in an operation that thinks $399 California-Iceland fares are going to be profitable?
That's Swissair-level thinking, right there.

The reality is WOW was not going to dissapear soon. This was a strategic move by Iceland air. Take out their competition so they regain some pricing power on routes. If this gets approved its good for Iceland air.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

The reality is WOW was not going to dissapear soon. This was a strategic move by Iceland air. Take out their competition so they regain some pricing power on routes. If this gets approved its good for Iceland air.

And in what reality was WOW air not going to disappear? It has already been in the Icelandic media that WOW air is out of cash, after paying salaries on the first of the month. So its owner went to Icelandair, his only chance to get any money out of it. Otherwise a straight collapse. You have got things twisted.

arcticcruiser wrote:

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

The reality is WOW was not going to dissapear soon. This was a strategic move by Iceland air. Take out their competition so they regain some pricing power on routes. If this gets approved its good for Iceland air.

And in what reality was WOW air not going to disappear? It has already been in the Icelandic media that WOW air is out of cash, after paying salaries on the first of the month. So its owner went to Icelandair, his only chance to get any money out of it. Otherwise a straight collapse. You have got things twisted.

My guess is that FI were concerned that someone like FR would come in and "do a Lauda", suddenly without warning, FR are in the medium/long haul transatlantic game. With Lauda FR have shown they are willing to try different things - Airbus, for example. They now sell Air Malta flights and offer connections in specific circumstances. With a hub in the middle of the Atlantic and an exceptional cost base, FR would be very dangerous for FI. Fortunately for FI KEF is bursting at the seems. There is little room for a third operator and they have blocked home-grown competition out.

There will be short-term pain while this works itself out, consolidation on a single AOC, fleet rationalisation, etc but it is a good long-term move for FI and a fascinating story to watch. FI is a Boeing airline, but will they be able to resist the charms of the A321neo/A330neo. On the face of it those are two aircraft almost Taylor made for FI.

hvusslax wrote:

Perhaps some point to point flying from Europe that bypasses KEF could also be in the picture.

IMO Icelandair's biggest competitor was not WOW, but Norwegian/LEVEL/etc flying non-stop low-cost from Europe to the US, hence by-passing KEF. That is the bigger picture.

In a way, the Dubai of the North was deemed to have the same fate as Emirates or QR. EK was the hottest thing on earth 5 years ago, but with more long-haul low-cost to Asia (e.g. Chinese carriers giving tickets away) or Air India connecting more points in the West, their importance is diminishing.

For instance, the example of BCN-KEF-LAX that the poster above discussed is very clear. Only 5 years ago, BCN-LAX could have been competitive via KEF because there were no non-stop flights between BCN and California. Now there is LEVEL and Norwegian on BCN-LAX. So if any of those carriers are selling a one-way for 300 EUR, how much does WOW need to discount it to make someone make a detour via KEF? Probably quite a lot.

It is going to be difficult to re-organize the networks for keeping the separate brands operating in nearly the same markets. Apparently, Wow Air would have lots of sense on these markets where they could deploy some more seat capacity being together + anywhere mainly with leisure pax as the core of the market. Duplicities are most of the network (around 70% of the routes are operated by both of them), with some interesting unique routes (HEL, OSL for example, which I believe must have been traditional routes for FI, not operated by WW at all). WW however, operates some other routes like LAX, BCN, TLV (soon DEL?) which FI doesn't.

As far as I know, this is the complete current year round/ seasonal destination map for Icelandair/WOW. I'll indicate which destinations do I see for every carrier, with some maybe capable to be operated by both.

GOT: FI
OSL: FI
HEL: FI
BGO: FI
BLL: FI
MAN: WW
GLA: FI
GVA: FI
ALC: WW
AMS: FI & WW
BCN: WW
TXL: WW
BOS: FI & WW
BRU: FI
ORD: FI
CPH: FI & WW
Dallas: FI
Detroit: FI
DUB: WW
DUS: WW
EDI: WW
FRA: FI
LPA: WW
LGW: WW
LHR: FI
STN: WW
LAX: WW
LYS: WW if any
MXP: WW
Montreal: WW
DEL: WW if any
EWR: WW
JFK: WW & FI
Orlando: WW
Tampa: WW
CDG: FI
Pittsburgh: WW
Salzburg: WW if any
SFO: WW
LAX: WW
Saint Louis: WW
ARN: FI
TLV: WW
TFS: WW
Toronto: FI & WW
Vancouver: WW
WAW: WW
IAD: FI
SEA: WW
Portland: FI
DEN: FI
Kansas: FI
Baltimore: WW
Edmonton: FI
Anchorage: FI
Philadelphia: FI
Halifax: WW
Cincinnati: WW

The current leased-fleet at WW is interesting, since most of the medium-haul destinations in USA could be served by WW (medium cities) with the A321LR. The A330s would be interesting to serve those longest flights from KEF, namely Orlando, Los Angeles, Tel Aviv or Delhi, also for deploying more seating capacity in big-markets which see lots of competition from other players (Toronto, New York, Boston, Amsterdam or Copenhaguen, etc.)

Europe typical-business airports (BRU, DUS, FRA, ARN....) I definitely see there the Icelandair brand, and the 757 until it gets replaced.

PS. sorry for not using the iata codes for some airports in the States, I am not familiar with some of them.

a350lover wrote:

It is going to be difficult to re-organize the networks for keeping the separate brands operating in nearly the same markets. Apparently, Wow Air would have lots of sense on these markets where they could deploy some more seat capacity being together + anywhere mainly with leisure pax as the core of the market. Duplicities are most of the network (around 70% of the routes are operated by both of them), with some interesting unique routes (HEL, OSL for example, which I believe must have been traditional routes for FI, not operated by WW at all). WW however, operates some other routes like LAX, BCN, TLV (soon DEL?) which FI doesn't.

As far as I know, this is the complete current year round/ seasonal destination map for Icelandair/WOW. I'll indicate which destinations do I see for every carrier, with some maybe capable to be operated by both.

GOT: FI
OSL: FI
HEL: FI
BGO: FI
BLL: FI
MAN: WW
GLA: FI
GVA: FI
ALC: WW
AMS: FI & WW
BCN: WW
TXL: WW
BOS: FI & WW
BRU: FI
ORD: FI
CPH: FI & WW
Dallas: FI
Detroit: FI
DUB: WW
DUS: WW
EDI: WW
FRA: FI
LPA: WW
LGW: WW
LHR: FI
STN: WW
LAX: WW
LYS: WW if any
MXP: WW
Montreal: WW
DEL: WW if any
EWR: WW
JFK: WW & FI
Orlando: WW
Tampa: WW
CDG: FI
Pittsburgh: WW
Salzburg: WW if any
SFO: WW
LAX: WW
Saint Louis: WW
ARN: FI
TLV: WW
TFS: WW
Toronto: FI & WW
Vancouver: WW
WAW: WW
IAD: FI
SEA: WW
Portland: FI
DEN: FI
Kansas: FI
Baltimore: WW
Edmonton: FI
Anchorage: FI
Philadelphia: FI
Halifax: WW
Cincinnati: WW

The current leased-fleet at WW is interesting, since most of the medium-haul destinations in USA could be served by WW (medium cities) with the A321LR. The A330s would be interesting to serve those longest flights from KEF, namely Orlando, Los Angeles, Tel Aviv or Delhi, also for deploying more seating capacity in big-markets which see lots of competition from other players (Toronto, New York, Boston, Amsterdam or Copenhaguen, etc.)

Europe typical-business airports (BRU, DUS, FRA, ARN....) I definitely see there the Icelandair brand, and the 757 until it gets replaced.

PS. sorry for not using the iata codes for some airports in the States, I am not familiar with some of them.

FI and WW both operate BWI during the summer and fall months (WW is year-round). In the summer the two operated a total of 15 flights from BWI each week. It was never clear to me that FI would be returning after its planned seasonal suspension in January. I wonder if the possibility was made more remote by this announcement.

SCQ83 wrote:

hvusslax wrote:

Perhaps some point to point flying from Europe that bypasses KEF could also be in the picture.

IMO Icelandair's biggest competitor was not WOW, but Norwegian/LEVEL/etc flying non-stop low-cost from Europe to the US, hence by-passing KEF. That is the bigger picture.

In a way, the Dubai of the North was deemed to have the same fate as Emirates or QR. EK was the hottest thing on earth 5 years ago, but with more long-haul low-cost to Asia (e.g. Chinese carriers giving tickets away) or Air India connecting more points in the West, their importance is diminishing.

For instance, the example of BCN-KEF-LAX that the poster above discussed is very clear. Only 5 years ago, BCN-LAX could have been competitive via KEF because there were no non-stop flights between BCN and California. Now there is LEVEL and Norwegian on BCN-LAX. So if any of those carriers are selling a one-way for 300 EUR, how much does WOW need to discount it to make someone make a detour via KEF? Probably quite a lot.

That may be your opinion and on single destinations you may be right, but you should have look at the network of those airlines. Icelandair started on the hub spoke system through KEF. Offering far more origin destination combinations than Norwegian. Icelandair has broad spectrum of destinations in North America, 23, some of the seasonal. That combines with 30 destinations in Europe, again some of them seasonal. On any flight you can have people traveling to completely different destinations. Try to fly next summer with Norwegian Bergen to Halifax, or Billund to Denver. Norwegian flies from a few single destination in Europe to a few single destination in North America. No real network where you travel a combination of flights.
WOW went into the market doing exactly the same as Icelandair on a all around cheaper basis, both in cost and service, using the same hub.

a350lover wrote:

It is going to be difficult to re-organize the networks for keeping the separate brands operating in nearly the same markets. Apparently, Wow Air would have lots of sense on these markets where they could deploy some more seat capacity being together + anywhere mainly with leisure pax as the core of the market. Duplicities are most of the network (around 70% of the routes are operated by both of them), with some interesting unique routes (HEL, OSL for example, which I believe must have been traditional routes for FI, not operated by WW at all). WW however, operates some other routes like LAX, BCN, TLV (soon DEL?) which FI doesn't.

As far as I know, this is the complete current year round/ seasonal destination map for Icelandair/WOW. I'll indicate which destinations do I see for every carrier, with some maybe capable to be operated by both.

GOT: FI
OSL: FI
HEL: FI
BGO: FI
BLL: FI
MAN: WW
GLA: FI
GVA: FI
ALC: WW
AMS: FI & WW
BCN: WW
TXL: WW
BOS: FI & WW
BRU: FI
ORD: FI
CPH: FI & WW
Dallas: FI
Detroit: FI
DUB: WW
DUS: WW
EDI: WW
FRA: FI
LPA: WW
LGW: WW
LHR: FI
STN: WW
LAX: WW
LYS: WW if any
MXP: WW
Montreal: WW
DEL: WW if any
EWR: WW
JFK: WW & FI
Orlando: WW
Tampa: WW
CDG: FI
Pittsburgh: WW
Salzburg: WW if any
SFO: WW
LAX: WW
Saint Louis: WW
ARN: FI
TLV: WW
TFS: WW
Toronto: FI & WW
Vancouver: WW
WAW: WW
IAD: FI
SEA: WW
Portland: FI
DEN: FI
Kansas: FI
Baltimore: WW
Edmonton: FI
Anchorage: FI
Philadelphia: FI
Halifax: WW
Cincinnati: WW

The current leased-fleet at WW is interesting, since most of the medium-haul destinations in USA could be served by WW (medium cities) with the A321LR. The A330s would be interesting to serve those longest flights from KEF, namely Orlando, Los Angeles, Tel Aviv or Delhi, also for deploying more seating capacity in big-markets which see lots of competition from other players (Toronto, New York, Boston, Amsterdam or Copenhaguen, etc.)

Europe typical-business airports (BRU, DUS, FRA, ARN....) I definitely see there the Icelandair brand, and the 757 until it gets replaced.

PS. sorry for not using the iata codes for some airports in the States, I am not familiar with some of them.

You forgot quite a few of Icelandair's destinations. Halifax, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal, Dublin, New York EWR, Paris Orly, Manchester, Düsseldorf, Berlin Tegel and Zurich. I do not know if I got them all.

mjoelnir wrote:

That may be your opinion and on single destinations you may be right, but you should have look at the network of those airlines. Icelandair started on the hub spoke system through KEF. Offering far more origin destination combinations than Norwegian. Icelandair has broad spectrum of destinations in North America, 23, some of the seasonal. That combines with 30 destinations in Europe, again some of them seasonal. On any flight you can have people traveling to completely different destinations. Try to fly next summer with Norwegian Bergen to Halifax, or Billund to Denver. Norwegian flies from a few single destination in Europe to a few single destination in North America. No real network where you travel a combination of flights.
WOW went into the market doing exactly the same as Icelandair on a all around cheaper basis, both in cost and service, using the same hub.

I am not saying that the KEF hub is not a sustainable business, particularly to connect the St Louis and Goteborgs of the world.

I just say that this market is limited and it seems to be already more than saturated. How many people a day fly from Bergen to Halifax? Or from Billund to Denver?

mjoelnir wrote:

You forgot quite a few of Icelandair's destinations. Halifax, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal, Dublin, New York EWR, Paris Orly, Manchester, Düsseldorf, Berlin Tegel and Zurich. I do not know if I got them all.

I was listing all destinations (for both) and naming the airline which in my own opinion could serve each destination, if not both. Despite that, I must have forgotten some, like Paris Orly. Thanks for that.

I agree also some destinations could be dropped. Iceland has a very strategic position in the Atlantic Ocean, and it truly serves as a very interesting point to connect. Said that, there are these days tones of options which are non-stop and nearly as cheap.

a350lover wrote:

mjoelnir wrote:

You forgot quite a few of Icelandair's destinations. Halifax, Seattle, Vancouver, Montreal, Dublin, New York EWR, Paris Orly, Manchester, Düsseldorf, Berlin Tegel and Zurich. I do not know if I got them all.

I was listing all destinations (for both) and naming the airline which in my own opinion could serve each destination, if not both. Despite that, I must have forgotten some, like Paris Orly. Thanks for that.

I agree also some destinations could be dropped. Iceland has a very strategic position in the Atlantic Ocean, and it truly serves as a very interesting point to connect. Said that, there are these days tones of options which are non-stop and nearly as cheap.

Yes there are direct connections, but you forget a point. When Icelandair has on one side for example LHR, yes, Icelandair flies to JFK, but I assume few people on the LHR flight are actually flying to JFK. It could be any of the 23 North American destinations, quite a few of them not having a direct flight to LHR. The same the other way, Icelandair flies to JFK, but I do not expect most of those passengers coming or going from LHR, but what about Billund, Bergen, Hamburg to name a few.
If you have one out of the way destination on both sides, Edmonton to Billund or Bergen you need two to three stops, instead of the one stop with Icelandair.
That is how the network operates.

What made WOW unattractive as a business traveler, was not the service. My main problem was most of their schedules were not daily. That does not matter for the tourist so much, but being on business you need a flight on a certain day and Icelandair has tried to up the frequency to most destination to daily or at least 5 or 6 times a week.

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Could this have been to avoid a competitor buying WOW?

Interesting question....