Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Lufthansa · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:21 am

Firstly a thought for those onboard, lets hope they're alive somewhere on life rafts.

A few years back a friend of mine was determined to fly the -900ER, and despite my warning otherwise booked us on it DPS-CGK-SIN. GA was literally $10 more to go direct and get full service. It was just a few days before they overrun the DPS runway. Now I fully understand the concept of a LCC, but we got on and asked for a beer. Sorry sir, don't have. Okay then can we have a Coke? Once again sorry sir don't have. Okay then what do you have? We have caps, bottles of water and some little teddy bear with a Lion Air shirt on. I realised then, this airline, which was on two routes popular with foreigners was poorly run, as it didn't see the revenue opportunities on these flights, both over 2 hrs. So it got me thinking.... if they can't even get that right, what about the more serious stuff?

asuflyer · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:22 am

The wreckage and an oil slick have been discovered by oil workers who work on ships in the area. Among the debris are passenger belongings, an aircraft seat, and raft. It has become evident from the size of pieces of wreckage was that this was a high speed impact and survivors are unlikely.

https://ekonomi.kompas.com/read/2018/10 ... ign=Dlvrit (Link in Bahasa)

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:22 am

If they are seeing seats in the water, and a ship’s captain saw the plane plunge, and flight monitoring sites showed a rapid descent - I think we can surmise how this is going to end up.

SXDFC · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:22 am

Imagine if you have a loved one who’s on a flight, you see all over social media that it’s missing, and you’re frantically going through all the scenarios in your head... Is the airplane type or the fact that it’s brand new one of them? Probably not..

716131 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:24 am

I think it's clear that according to this source, the plane wreckage has been found but they said that everyone are presumed dead.
https://www.liputan6.com/news/read/3678 ... -ditemukan

kanban · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:25 am

The BBC piece noted above contains the following:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???

Adipocere · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:26 am

This Loon Air needs to go back on the banned list ASAP. Absolutely tragic.

musman9853 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:26 am

Damn 200 lives extinguished like that.

KICT · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:28 am

kanban wrote:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

When properly flown, aircraft tend to remain aloft.
Shut 'em down.

afterburner · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:28 am

KPDX wrote:
Very sad news. How in the hell has this airline not been shut down by the government? Atrocious.

Because it passes safety audits, including IOSA (IATA Operational Safety Audit).

jcancel · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:29 am

gia777 wrote:
I am from Indonesia and Lion Air - Air Asia - both are on my BANNED list.

My understanding is that the AirAsua Indonesia company didn't do any willful misconduct regarding flight 8501, and in the Mayday documentary a commentator says it was a shame since the airline was well run.

F9Animal · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:30 am

Hopeful for survivors, but it isnt sounding good. We can all agree the airline has some major issues, but let's all hold some hope for a miracle. Shocking that such a new plane could go down like this. A thousand possibilities are running through my mind on what could have happened. Sadly, I doubt we will get a thorough explanation from them as the investigation starts.

aemoreira1981 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:31 am

I think it can be safely presumed that the 188 on board are all gone. I would hope it wasn't an actual problem with the Boeing 737 MAX itself, given how it was observed to basically just plunge into the water (vertical stabilizer failure?).

Gonzalo · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:32 am

An Indonesian airliner crash on the headlines....almost a (sad and tragic ) tradition in my 14 years in this website...I still remember the times when we had the hope of this never happening again after the closure of Adam Air. It is so sad to see our hope was just a naive illusion, and the things doesn’t change through time.
Anyway, I’ll keep my fingers crossed for survivors.

Rgds.
G.

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:32 am

KICT wrote:
kanban wrote:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

When properly flown, aircraft tend to remain aloft.
Shut 'em down.

Remember the A380 that nearly fell out of the sky? Engine had an uncontained failure that was literally inches from killing everyone on that plane. How do you know that this MAX didn’t suffer something similar? These power plants are being pushed pretty hard.

Look - I get it - it’s LionAir. Let’s just not assume we know what happened at this early stage.

Erebus · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:33 am

Kickert wrote:
BBC has picked it up:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-460 ... ws_central

There's a comment by Gerry in there. I think he is known as mandala499 on these boards.

Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight.

Does anyone know anything more on what he is talking about here? Or is it a case of media misreporting where he could have been just referring to the accident aircraft's ill-fated flightpath.

gia777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:34 am

jcancel wrote:
gia777 wrote:
I am from Indonesia and Lion Air - Air Asia - both are on my BANNED list.

My understanding is that the AirAsua Indonesia company didn't do any willful misconduct regarding flight 8501, and in the Mayday documentary a commentator says it was a shame since the airline was well run.

Air Asia = they flew to Singapore without proper authorization. enough said. If they can do that, let alone...the safety
Air Asia = flights delay, cancellation are very frequent without any compensation.

CrimsonNL · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:34 am

kanban wrote:
never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???

I haven't heard of these problems either, but I can assure you Mister Soejatman is not a troll.

Martijn

F9Animal · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:35 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
KICT wrote:
kanban wrote:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

When properly flown, aircraft tend to remain aloft.
Shut 'em down.

Remember the A380 that nearly fell out of the sky? Engine had an uncontained failure that was literally inches from killing everyone on that plane. How do you know that this MAX didn’t suffer something similar? These power plants are being pushed pretty hard.

Look - I get it - it’s LionAir. Let’s just not assume we know what happened at this early stage.

Exactly. Could have been a terror attack for all we know at this point. I can promise those 2 up front did all they could to save the plane, and this is of course very heartbreaking for those who are standing in shock awaiting news of their loved ones.

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:36 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I think it can be safely presumed that the 188 on board are all gone. I would hope it wasn't an actual problem with the Boeing 737 MAX itself, given how it was observed to basically just plunge into the water (vertical stabilizer failure?).

I’d think it would have just plunged rather than “meander” up and down a bit but I guess we’ll know in due time.

douwd20 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:39 am

musman9853 wrote:
haydenschool wrote:
Brand new aircraft gone bye bye...

Screw the plane, just hope there are survivors

Well with 7 billion humans on the planet. The 737 is a rarity if we just go by the numbers.

afterburner · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:40 am

kanban wrote:
The BBC piece noted above contains the following:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???

Gerry Soejatman is a credible aviation observer. He is often asked for comments by various news agencies, local and international, whenever there is an air accident. He even appeared on an episode of Air Crash Investigation/Mayday. He also used to be an active member of this forum.

gia777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 am

The Autopilot must have been ON by that time,

ikolkyo · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 am

kanban wrote:
The BBC piece noted above contains the following:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???

I feel like an issue like that would be widely know by now, sounds like BS.

gia777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:44 am

Jakarta - The Lion Air JT 610 has been dropped by Jakarta-Palu. Before lost contact and fell, the plane had time to return to Soekarno-Hatta Airport.

"The plane had requested a return to base before it disappeared from the radar," said Head of Cooperation and Public Relations of the DGCA, Sindu Rahayu in a written statement on Monday (29/10/2018).

I guess the Pilot realized something went wrong with the plane and requested RTB

log0008 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:44 am

There is something very wrong with the altitude on this flight based on FR24 they never got above 5300ft, every other aircraft departing in the same way is up around 18000ft by the point it diapered - more to this than pilot error imo

45272455674 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:44 am

Erebus wrote:
Kickert wrote:
BBC has picked it up:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-460 ... ws_central

There's a comment by Gerry in there. I think he is known as mandala499 on these boards.

Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight.

Does anyone know anything more on what he is talking about here? Or is it a case of media misreporting where he could have been just referring to the accident aircraft's ill-fated flightpath.

yes, I'm wondering that too. Who else operates the Max 8, and have they been experiencing problems maintaining level flight. If that is a forum member on this board, then hopefully he'll explain himself. Otherwise, how does a plane like this even get into service if it cannot maintain level flight. I'm fairly dubious of those claims. Even the Boeing test pilots wouldn't allow that, surely?

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:44 am

afterburner wrote:
kanban wrote:
The BBC piece noted above contains the following:
"Aviation consultant Gerry Soejatman told the BBC the MAX 8 had been experiencing problems since it was introduced, including problems maintaining a level flight"

never heard of this problem or do we just have a troll looking for 30 seconds of notoriety???

Gerry Soejatman is a credible aviation observer. He is often asked for comments by various news agencies, local and international, whenever there is an air accident. He even appeared on an episode of Air Crash Investigation/Mayday. He also used to be an active member of this forum.

Mandala499?

GE90man · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:46 am

Makes me wonder if there is something to do with the somewhat new aircraft type, knowing the MAX has newer instrumentation than the NG models. Perhaps crew were not used to the new instruments in the MAX, especially with the airline's poor track record in training, resulting in chaos and confusion in the flight deck. Just my two cents.

gia777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 am

Jakarta - The SAR team that found Lion Air JT610 got some debris. The plane is in water with a depth of 30-35 meters.

"We arrived at the location where we found debris of buoys, cellphones, and there were several pieces," said the Head of Basarnas Marsdya M Syaugi in a press conference at his office, Kemayoran, Central Jakarta, Monday (10/29/2018) .

The total number of people in the plane is called 189 people. M Syaugi has not been able to ascertain the condition of the passenger.

Also read: KNKT: Lion Air Falls Bring 189 People

"We have not yet known that, are there any survivors, hopefully there are," said M Syaugi.

At this time according to Syaugi the search process was still carried out. He claimed to be renewing information about the evacuation in the next few hours.

The plane took off from Soekarno-Hatta Airport, Banten, at 06.20 WIB. Furthermore, the plane lost contact at 06.33 WIB.

afterburner · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Look - I get it - it’s LionAir. Let’s just not assume we know what happened at this early stage.

aemoreira1981 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:49 am

log0008 wrote:
There is something very wrong with the altitude on this flight based on FR24 they never got above 5300ft, every other aircraft departing in the same way is up around 18000ft by the point it diapered - more to this than pilot error imo

I have to wonder if the stabilizer broke off. It looks like a phugoid motion based on the track on Flightradar24. Whatever happened likely occurred around 5,200 feet...I see about 5 changes in altitude up and down before it finally plunged into the ocean. I'm leaning to say that this isn't Lion Air's fault, and the pilots tried to save their plane and passengers in those last 7 minutes. A similar accident would be that of JL123 back in 1985. I don't want to say it was a problem with the aircraft, but that's my first theory.

ilovelamp · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:50 am

GE90man wrote:
Makes me wonder if there is something to do with the somewhat new aircraft type, knowing the MAX has newer instrumentation than the NG models. Perhaps crew were not used to the new instruments in the MAX, especially with the airline's poor track record in training, resulting in chaos and confusion in the flight deck. Just my two cents.

If difference in instrumentation was an issue, the NGs and MAXs wouldn’t share a common type rating. In fact, in the instrumentation is nearly identical except that MAX has one fewer LCD display than the NGs.

FlyingLaw1 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:50 am

Holding out hope for good news. The incoming pictures and reports are beginning to paint a dire picture, however.

Much too early to intelligently speculate on a cause. Flight path does look suspicious though....

GE90man · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:51 am

ilovelamp wrote:
GE90man wrote:
Makes me wonder if there is something to do with the somewhat new aircraft type, knowing the MAX has newer instrumentation than the NG models. Perhaps crew were not used to the new instruments in the MAX, especially with the airline's poor track record in training, resulting in chaos and confusion in the flight deck. Just my two cents.

If difference in instrumentation was an issue, the NGs and MAXs wouldn’t share a common type rating. In fact, in the instrumentation is nearly identical except that MAX has one fewer LCD display than the NGs.

Still a difference in the flight deck that one must get used to

log0008 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:51 am

Same flight yesterday to today

mga707 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:56 am

YellowJ wrote:
Not to take away the focus from this sad situation; but is this a record from delivery to crash for any airline and/or aircraft made?

West Coast Airlines (part of Delta's 'airline DNA' through Air West>Hughes Airwest>Republic>Northwest) lost a two-week-old DC-9-10 over Oregon in 1966.

BWIAirport · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:56 am

It looks like they hung out around 5,000ft for about 8 minutes. Maybe they had issues climbing, like engine problems? But why then would they have not turned back for the airport? Just speculation of course

NYPECO · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:57 am

Hydraulic problem maybe?

joeblow10 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:57 am

log0008 wrote:
Same flight yesterday to today

Definitely odd... even at the portion before it started fluctuating around 5000 feet, you can see a rapid ascent compared to yesterday starting 2 minutes in

gia777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:58 am

The Pilot requested ATC for return to base shortly before crashed so something must have happened with the plane itself

XLA2008 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:59 am

Just awful... those poor people in the last moments, just doesn’t bear thinking about, Rest In Peace and my heart goes out to the families and loved ones.

hongkongflyer · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:00 am

gia777 wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
Not to take away the focus from this sad situation; but is this a record from delivery to crash for any airline and/or aircraft made?

Most probably yes and I remembered they did it before with their brand new 737-800 crashed just short of the runway in Bali (everyone survived)

Lion Air has becoming a joke in my country and they always always always screw up on many things... the problem is...they are cheap to fly so most below avarage ppl take Lion.

I am no rich but I always travel with Garuda no matter what. sometimes by train too. less trouble. damn I am flying in 3 days.... lol

This, also a 2 month 737-800

PlanesNTrains · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:02 am

log0008 wrote:
Same flight yesterday to today

Pitots? That just looks really erratic.

FlyingLaw1 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:02 am

Just found this on twitter... https://twitter.com/Sutopo_PN/status/10 ... 6917781504

hayzel777 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:03 am

If there is no evidence of Gerry Soejatman's claim, Boeing needs to go and sue him for every dime he has.

log0008 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:04 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
log0008 wrote:
Same flight yesterday to today

Pitots? That just looks really erratic.

Highly, highly unlikely they levelled of at 5000ft and struggled along for almost 8 mins, it seems very likely that this aircraft had something very wrong with it.

joeblow10 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:05 am

METARs appear to show nothing that significant, other than SCT020. Interesting to note the plane does start “fluctuating” right as it passes 020, so the pitot theory can’t be ruled out

hongkongflyer · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:05 am

log0008 wrote:
There is something very wrong with the altitude on this flight based on FR24 they never got above 5300ft, every other aircraft departing in the same way is up around 18000ft by the point it diapered - more to this than pilot error imo

If the pilot requested to return to the airport (mentioned above), it must has some issues regarding the plane.

edu2703 · Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:05 am

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