PlanesNTrains
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:08 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Good chance it has already been found and results not to Lion and authorities liking.


Really? If that’s the case, why’d they bother finding the FDR? And what is so magical about the CVR that it could turn the entire investigation upside down?

I get that they might not come out smelling like roses, but I don’t personally believe that they are sitting on it.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:51 am

Well, I believe there is a chance they are. Honest difference of opinion.
 
airnorth
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:44 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Good chance it has already been found and results not to Lion and authorities liking.

I'm always surprised by comments like this. Is it me that lives in the alternative universe? How many people would have to be aware of a secret like this to effectively hide evidence of this nature? Its not like a couple of Lion Air executives in a raft floated out there , found the cvr and hid it from authorities and went home.
How exactly do you and others envision a search like this taking place, and everybody being "in" on the conspiracy?
Mind blown......
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:59 am

airnorth wrote:
I'm always surprised by comments like this. Is it me that lives in the alternative universe?


Hopefully not! There's more than the just the odd one in this thread. :sarcastic:

The lunatics are in my hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MigPilot
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm

Considering Airbus financial involvement in the search for AF447, I‘m wondering where Boeing is hiding? If the CVR holds evidence for pilot fuckup, as many here seem to stipulate, shouldn't Boeing be a bit more eager to find it?
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:53 pm

Just seems quite odd that the FDR was found soon after crash and virtually all on here would have thought the CVR would have been recovered given relatively shallow waters, 90-day ping. I'm not a conspiracy nut but I have some Indonesian ex-employees with whom I still have contact. Their take? In that area money, and not much of it, will buy the silence some think wouldn't occur if CVR was found.
 
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FlyXLsa
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:03 pm

Let the Indonesia Navy have a go at it. Recovery of an object from 40 meters would make a good training exercise and is not that technically difficult. Indonesian divers recovered the boxes from QZ8501 from a similar depth. Their Navy located some KI574 wreckage in 2007 and was later helped by a US Navy Ship in recovery of the CVR/FDR boxes. Throwing more cash at the problem isn't always the best solution.
Whiskey-Oscar-Oscar-Foxtrot
 
smartplane
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:24 pm

FlyXLsa wrote:
Let the Indonesia Navy have a go at it. Recovery of an object from 40 meters would make a good training exercise and is not that technically difficult. Indonesian divers recovered the boxes from QZ8501 from a similar depth. Their Navy located some KI574 wreckage in 2007 and was later helped by a US Navy Ship in recovery of the CVR/FDR boxes. Throwing more cash at the problem isn't always the best solution.

But this is a relatively fast flowing tidal body of water, in an area where they can't place anchors due to power and telecommunications cables on the seabed. Very few navies operate vessels capable of remaining on station without anchors.
 
moa999
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:50 pm

Didn't the Navy try first?

Agree it seems a little bizarre but this obviously isn't as simple as picking up an object off the bottom of the pool
 
sgrow787
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:19 am

SimpleFlying wrote:
Could it be that Boeing is also not wanting the CVR to be found?

Boeing kept something out of it's difference training, and out of the operating manuals. From the Indonesian preliminary report, which is from the data from the recovered FDR black box, it's clear without a doubt there was pilot error in responding to a runaway trim situation. Therefore, it has to be accepted as fact that the CVR will show pilots in panic mode in the moments before acquiring a steep high-speed descent toward the sea below. The shorter duration of the manual trim input commands near the last 15 seconds, while the MCAS trim down commands are still 10 seconds long, indicate exhaustion by the pilots, and likely verbal commands like "it keeps putting the nose down" and "I can't hold it any longer". The last trim up by the pilots is 8 seconds before crash, at which point the 737Max falls 5000 feet in 8 seconds. That lines up with the reported terminal velocity of 500 mph (733 ft/sec). A competent lawyer would make sure to get those last seconds of CVR in front of a jury.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:38 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
From the Indonesian preliminary report, which is from the data from the recovered FDR black box, it's clear without a doubt there was pilot error in responding to a runaway trim situation.

The preliminary report show that the MCAS is the cause of the runaway trim situation. Boeing not only confirmed this officially with the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51, but detailed the unsafe condition that exist in 737-8 and -9 aircraft design, and revised operating procedure to be effective within 3 days after receipt.
 
SimpleFlying
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:54 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Just seems quite odd that the FDR was found soon after crash and virtually all on here would have thought the CVR would have been recovered given relatively shallow waters, 90-day ping. I'm not a conspiracy nut but I have some Indonesian ex-employees with whom I still have contact. Their take? In that area money, and not much of it, will buy the silence some think wouldn't occur if CVR was found.


Who is buying silence? Lion Air or Boeing?

My take is just a matter of bureaucracy in funding the search.

Based on my experience interfacing with Indonesian bureaucrats, I'm pretty sure what's in their mind is something like this: "If I sign off the expenditure and years down the road state auditor deemed the cost is too expensive, I can be accused of corruption. Who is going to back me up?. Forget it. Let Lion Air (Boeing) fund the search so I'm off the hook"
 
sgrow787
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:05 am

PixelFlight wrote:
The preliminary report show that the MCAS is the cause of the runaway trim situation. Boeing not only confirmed this officially with the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51, but detailed the unsafe condition that exist in 737-8 and -9 aircraft design, and revised operating procedure to be effective within 3 days after receipt.


Are you sure it's not a "potential unsafe condition if pilots don't follow the recovery procedure in a timely fashion"? I find it hard to believe Boeing would say that MCAS failing by itself is unsafe.

The failed MCAS + pilot error = a continuing runaway trim situation that eventually became unrecoverable.
 
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ITMercure
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am

sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The preliminary report show that the MCAS is the cause of the runaway trim situation. Boeing not only confirmed this officially with the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51, but detailed the unsafe condition that exist in 737-8 and -9 aircraft design, and revised operating procedure to be effective within 3 days after receipt.


Are you sure it's not a "potential unsafe condition if pilots don't follow the recovery procedure in a timely fashion"? I find it hard to believe Boeing would say that MCAS failing by itself is unsafe.

The failed MCAS + pilot error = a continuing runaway trim situation that eventually became unrecoverable.


Sorry but it is now well established that there was no specific recovery procedure for that very malfunction, hence why Boeing published its bulletin just after the crash. Whatever responsability might apply to lioAir, could we please stop reading on this forum that pilots did not use a recovery procedure for a failure mode... which was not documented and thus had no recovery procedure? Whatever the previous crew did to stop the autotrim was either sheer luck or smart thinking, but I would not blame the dead crew for not having implemented the same action. On the other hand I would blame the absence of information-sharing on that particular action between the previous flight and the fatal one - another hole in the cheese.
 
Noshow
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:51 am

We should improve the way recorded data can be found and used. Like store both FDR and CVR data on each device and add some aditional deployable, swimming recorder with some beacon.
We shouldn't start from scratch every time again without finally learning that we need more data to find out what happened. The authorities should act now.
 
patplan
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:55 am

Via Google translate..., it comes handy from time to time. I take the liberty to clean up some parts of what appear to be "weird translations"...

===================================
The search for "Black Box" is continued, the team will also recover any victims' remains found
08/01/2019

On Tuesday (8/1 / 2019), The National Transportation Safety Committee ( NTSC ) and the Indonesian Navy resumed their search for black boxes containing cockpit voice recorders of Lion Air PK-LQP aircraft flight number JT 610 which crashed in Karawang, West Java. The Chairman of the NTSC Soerjanto Tjahjono said, the search team would also recover the victims' remains if found in the search area. "If it is right on the seabed, there are human remains found, yes, we probably will recover those as well," said Soerjanto at JICT 2 Pier, North Jakarta, Tuesday

...However, the search area has now been restricted to the area of ​​5x5 square meters which is thought to be the location where the black box containing the CVR of the aircraft can be recovered...
===================================

Cross our collective fingers...!!

- https://megapolitan.kompas.com/read/201 ... buh-korban
- https://translate.google.com/translate? ... buh-korban
 
Noshow
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:04 pm

5 x 5 meters? Kilometers more likely.
 
patplan
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:28 pm

Noshow wrote:
5 x 5 meters? Kilometers more likely.


I don't think that's a typo. The Kilometer figure you'd written would've been too wide, since the NTSC's previous search area was less than 1 square KM. It's likely that the CVR got stuck in a very heavy mud [appr. 3-4 feet thick] at the bottom of Java sea. It's not going to go anywere.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:40 pm

ITMercure wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Are you sure it's not a "potential unsafe condition if pilots don't follow the recovery procedure in a timely fashion"?


Sorry but it is now well established that there was no specific recovery procedure for that very malfunction, hence why Boeing published its bulletin just after the crash.


It's almost unbelievable that this "they could have just followed procedure" propaganda line continues to be pushed...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
timh4000
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:00 pm

ITMercure wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The preliminary report show that the MCAS is the cause of the runaway trim situation. Boeing not only confirmed this officially with the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51, but detailed the unsafe condition that exist in 737-8 and -9 aircraft design, and revised operating procedure to be effective within 3 days after receipt.


Are you sure it's not a "potential unsafe condition if pilots don't follow the recovery procedure in a timely fashion"? I find it hard to believe Boeing would say that MCAS failing by itself is unsafe.

The failed MCAS + pilot error = a continuing runaway trim situation that eventually became unrecoverable.


Sorry but it is now well established that there was no specific recovery procedure for that very malfunction, hence why Boeing published its bulletin just after the crash. Whatever responsability might apply to lioAir, could we please stop reading on this forum that pilots did not use a recovery procedure for a failure mode... which was not documented and thus had no recovery procedure? Whatever the previous crew did to stop the autotrim was either sheer luck or smart thinking, but I would not blame the dead crew for not having implemented the same action. On the other hand I would blame the absence of information-sharing on that particular action between the previous flight and the fatal one - another hole in the cheese.

This is my line of thinking. That part of the problem(s) lie with poor communication. It's a major part if you stop and think about it. Boeing didn't communicate to pilots about the new MCAS trim system. The mechanics and the previous flight crews weren't communicating well with each other or to the next crew. Something that would not occur with the dozens of reputable airlines and the dozen. Or so major airlines worldwide. That plane would have most likely been grounded because the mechanics weren't solving the problem. Rather than pointing the finger of blame at just Boeing it just anyone thing is myopic thinking imo. When there is a tragic accident, think titanic, the hindenburg etc etc. It was a multitude of problems which created an unrecoverable situation. Taking away any one of the human failures would to at worst an incident, but not a tragic accident.
 
buzzard302
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:22 pm

I guess the CVR ping function didn't work too well. Brand new airplane with a new CVR and there is no detectable ping? The search area is not that large, or deep. It should be found eventually, unless something more sinister is going on.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:34 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The preliminary report show that the MCAS is the cause of the runaway trim situation. Boeing not only confirmed this officially with the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51, but detailed the unsafe condition that exist in 737-8 and -9 aircraft design, and revised operating procedure to be effective within 3 days after receipt.


Are you sure it's not a "potential unsafe condition if pilots don't follow the recovery procedure in a timely fashion"? I find it hard to believe Boeing would say that MCAS failing by itself is unsafe.

Yes I am sure this is a "Unsafe Condition" (not a potential one, a very real one), because this is Boeing own words. Read carefully the AD and verify by yourself: the unsafe condition is the _CAUSE_ of the crew difficulty controlling the airplane. The crew is not part of the unsafe condition creation at all, the Boeing design is. This point was officially addressed by Boeing itself, so there no point for conspiracy theory against Boeing on that exact subject. My point of view, as you can verify be reading my previous posts, is that the civil aircraft industry, regardless of the brand, have to evolve the algorithms used to filter the sensors to take a system width approach and flight dynamic predictors.

Some keys parts of the Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) Number 2018-23-51:

"(a) Effective Date
This Emergency AD is effective upon receipt."

"(c) Applicability
This AD applies to all The Boeing Company Model 737-8 and -9 airplanes, certificated in any
category."

"(e) Unsafe Condition
This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an
erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system,
there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer. We are issuing
this AD to address this potential resulting nose-down trim, which could cause the flight crew to have
difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss,
and possible impact with terrain."

"(g) Revision of Airplane Flight Manual (AFM): Certificate Limitations
Within 3 days after receipt of this AD, revise the Certificate Limitations chapter of the
applicable AFM to include the information in figure 1 to paragraph (g) of this AD."

"(h) AFM Revision: Operating Procedures
Within 3 days after receipt of this AD, revise the Operating Procedures chapter of the
applicable AFM to include the information in figure 2 to paragraph (h) of this AD."
 
stiphy
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:37 pm

According to Reuters the search is being restarted:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/search- ... ai-rum=off
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:28 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
"(e) Unsafe Condition
This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an
erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system,
there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer. We are issuing
this AD to address this potential resulting nose-down trim, which could cause the flight crew to have
difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss,
and possible impact with terrain
."


Despite the fact Boeing didn't tell pilots about MCAS and subsequently issued this AD, some people here are still wholey blaming the dead crew and/or Lion maintenance.

What is shocking is that Boeing only apparently performed this analysis after the crash. How on Earth did this not get picked up during certification or questioned by FAA/EASA?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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par13del
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:45 pm

My main interest in the CVR is to understand why when they dropped flaps they were able to control the a/c but when they raised them the a/c became uncontrollable, and this happened multiple times according to the FDR.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
Despite the fact Boeing didn't tell pilots about MCAS and subsequently issued this AD, some people here are still wholey blaming the dead crew and/or Lion maintenance.

What is shocking is that Boeing only apparently performed this analysis after the crash. How on Earth did this not get picked up during certification or questioned by FAA/EASA?

This is certainly the most critical question that the final report will have to analyse. I hope that the certification requirement will evolve to ensure flight safety. Time will tell when.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
"(e) Unsafe Condition
This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an
erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system,
there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer. We are issuing
this AD to address this potential resulting nose-down trim, which could cause the flight crew to have
difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss,
and possible impact with terrain
."


Despite the fact Boeing didn't tell pilots about MCAS and subsequently issued this AD, some people here are still wholey blaming the dead crew and/or Lion maintenance.

What is shocking is that Boeing only apparently performed this analysis after the crash. How on Earth did this not get picked up during certification or questioned by FAA/EASA?

They didn't tell pilots the previous system was renamed and modified, and the cut-outs were renamed.

The procedure to stop runaway trim hasn't changed though: cut out the system. The question is why didn't the crew do that if they had years of 737NG experience.
The procedure for troubleshooting the problem hasn't changed. The question is if it was followed to completion.

Shifting the blame entirely to Boeing is scapegoating just as it is to blame Lion 100%. This is why blame is split up during lawsuits.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:42 pm

ikramerica wrote:
scbriml wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
"(e) Unsafe Condition
This AD was prompted by analysis performed by the manufacturer showing that if an
erroneously high single angle of attack (AOA) sensor input is received by the flight control system,
there is a potential for repeated nose-down trim commands of the horizontal stabilizer. We are issuing
this AD to address this potential resulting nose-down trim, which could cause the flight crew to have
difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss,
and possible impact with terrain
."


Despite the fact Boeing didn't tell pilots about MCAS and subsequently issued this AD, some people here are still wholey blaming the dead crew and/or Lion maintenance.

What is shocking is that Boeing only apparently performed this analysis after the crash. How on Earth did this not get picked up during certification or questioned by FAA/EASA?

They didn't tell pilots the previous system was renamed and modified, and the cut-outs were renamed.

The procedure to stop runaway trim hasn't changed though:cut out the system. The question is why didn't the crew do that if they had years of 737NG experience.
The procedure for troubleshooting the problem hasn't changed. The question is if it was followed to completion.

Shifting the blame entirely to Boeing is scapegoating just as it is to blame Lion 100%. This is why blame is split up during lawsuits.


See what you did there? You stated one of the likeliest culprits of confusion. Just look at the bolded stuff you wrote. What good is NG experience....
 
sealevel
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:59 am

Find the CVR , complete the full picture.
 
trav777
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:25 am

read this whole thread, answer seems obvious-

previous flight what happened? SAME DEFECT.

what did those pilots do? Did they do what any US major or Euro major would do and turn tf around and go back? No, they tried to find a way to continue to the destination. They succeeded.

This exposes a CLEAR issue with procedure at Lion. The plane should not have flown the previous leg, much less this one. It had a mechanical defect that was known and reported yet Lion's pilots tried to find a way to get their segments done regardless.
 
Noshow
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:20 am

It's unfair to blame the pilots. They could not know what the airplane was doing, Lion had tried to repair the issue and had some mechanic flying in the cockpit to monitor.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:22 am

trav777 wrote:
read this whole thread, answer seems obvious-

previous flight what happened? SAME DEFECT.

what did those pilots do? Did they do what any US major or Euro major would do and turn tf around and go back? No, they tried to find a way to continue to the destination. They succeeded.

This exposes a CLEAR issue with procedure at Lion. The plane should not have flown the previous leg, much less this one. It had a mechanical defect that was known and reported yet Lion's pilots tried to find a way to get their segments done regardless.


100% correct.

Lion Air's incompetence and failure to make this jet AOG proves their negligence.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:43 am

par13del wrote:
My main interest in the CVR is to understand why when they dropped flaps they were able to control the a/c but when they raised them the a/c became uncontrollable, and this happened multiple times according to the FDR.

Long ago in this thread is a schematic of the MCAS that shows that it is only operative with flaps UP.
Lowering the flaps turns it off.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:39 pm

trav777 wrote:
read this whole thread



Obviously not...
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's unfair to blame the pilots. They could not know what the airplane was doing, Lion had tried to repair the issue and had some mechanic flying in the cockpit to monitor.

Was he in the cockpit to monitor or was he there to service the plane after it landed?
Has that question ever been answered?
 
IADCA
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:59 pm

smartplane wrote:
FlyXLsa wrote:
Let the Indonesia Navy have a go at it. Recovery of an object from 40 meters would make a good training exercise and is not that technically difficult. Indonesian divers recovered the boxes from QZ8501 from a similar depth. Their Navy located some KI574 wreckage in 2007 and was later helped by a US Navy Ship in recovery of the CVR/FDR boxes. Throwing more cash at the problem isn't always the best solution.

But this is a relatively fast flowing tidal body of water, in an area where they can't place anchors due to power and telecommunications cables on the seabed. Very few navies operate vessels capable of remaining on station without anchors.


It's not that technically difficult. Dives in areas with currents and tides, even without anchor lines, aren't uncommon as long as the weather is decent. The big problem in early days for this one, if I remember right, was that the weather was bad. In good weather, you can do this dive from a recreational dive boat. Also, if you're as confident as they seem to be on location, there's no need to anchor a naval-size vessel: just set up a small dive platform and anchor it, which wouldn't require the use of anchors big enough to damage cables.
 
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FlyXLsa
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:20 pm

Exactly.... VIZ would seem to be the biggest issue facing the divers.
It's rather odd the KNKT has allowed 2 months of "pinging" to pass without action?
Whiskey-Oscar-Oscar-Foxtrot
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:50 pm

salttee wrote:
Noshow wrote:
It's unfair to blame the pilots. They could not know what the airplane was doing, Lion had tried to repair the issue and had some mechanic flying in the cockpit to monitor.

Was he in the cockpit to monitor or was he there to service the plane after it landed?
Has that question ever been answered?


It's been answered many times already. IIRC the consensus was it's normal for newly-trained maintenance personnel to be taken to remote out-stations when new types are being brought into service rather than risk getting stuck out there with no qualified guys to supervise any required fix.

So no, he was not there to monitor the effect of installing the vane, nor was he there to service it after it landed. He was just there anyway.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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par13del
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:12 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Long ago in this thread is a schematic of the MCAS that shows that it is only operative with flaps UP.
Lowering the flaps turns it off.

My hope is that the CVR would reveal the thinking behind continuing to stop what was working for what was not, was it a case of following the book inspite of the viewed results, noting that this was a daytime flight.
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:15 pm

I know that some here believe that the maintenance person was on the flight for service this new type at the destination (the consensus was) but I was asking if it is known specifically in this case if that was why he was on the plane.

Otherwise noshow's assertion remains unanswered.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:47 pm

salttee wrote:
I know that some here believe that the maintenance person was on the flight for service this new type at the destination (the consensus was) but I was asking if it is known specifically in this case if that was why he was on the plane.

Otherwise noshow's assertion remains unanswered.


mandala499 (who is qualified to answer this, given his position) stated the mechanic was there for routine type-proving purposes.

This was then corroborated by 2175301 ("a certified root cause investigator") and trent768

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407217&hilit=mandala499&start=1700#p20887695

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407217&p=20890283&hilit=mandala499#p20890283

Strangely, a search only shows replies to mandala499 - not his original posts - so maybe he has removed them due to being involved now... He certainly stopped posting about it suddenly in November.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:21 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Strangely, a search only shows replies to mandala499 - not his original posts - so maybe he has removed them due to being involved now...


Never mind. I did a test - the search function is rubbish and doesn't find user names unless these are quoted in someone's text... :roll:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:24 pm

If you want to raise the subject of mandala499, I'll be happy to oblige. Above, you spoke of consensus and said "It's been answered many times already". Now it's mandala499. I was unaware I was bumping into anyone's sacred cow; I was just trying to put noshow's seemingly false assumption in perspective.

I think it's good that someone who is a publicity agent for one of the interested parties in the JT610 accident remove himself from discussion in a forum where the rest of the posters are non-professional in the political sense and even if they appear to have an agenda, it's not really an agenda, but rather just a personal outlook.

It's great chatting with you.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:37 pm

salttee wrote:
Above, you spoke of consensus and said "It's been answered many times already". Now it's mandala499. I was unaware I was bumping into anyone's sacred cow; I was just trying to put noshow's seemingly false assumption in perspective.


The consensus is there - several people corroborating the original post meant that the topic popped up multiple times and no-one disagreed with it.

It's not a sacred cow, it's an unnecessary distraction as the thread has moved past that question a long time ago (around two months and twenty pages of posts). So there's no need to bring it up again unless evidence to the contrary comes out.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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litz
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:04 pm

par13del wrote:
My main interest in the CVR is to understand why when they dropped flaps they were able to control the a/c but when they raised them the a/c became uncontrollable, and this happened multiple times according to the FDR.


What we need to know, and we can only hope the CVR will shed light on ... is why they repeatedly raised the flaps and put the airplane into an unstable state ...

Logic would dictate (one would think) that after you do "something" and the airplane does something unexpected ... and you do it again, and the airplane again does something expected ... that you do not keep repeating that "something" until the airplane is no longer controllable.

That appears, via the FDR data we've seen, to be exactly what this crew did ...
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:19 pm

salttee wrote:
I think it's good that someone who is a publicity agent for one of the interested parties in the JT610 accident remove himself from discussion in a forum where the rest of the posters are non-professional in the political sense and even if they appear to have an agenda, it's not really an agenda, but rather just a personal outlook.

I disagree. It's an open forum not a tribunal. There is already forum rules ( forumrules.php ).
I personally enjoy posts from professionals debating facts, regardless of there interest if there have one.
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
salttee wrote:
I think it's good that someone who is a publicity agent for one of the interested parties in the JT610 accident remove himself from discussion in a forum where the rest of the posters are non-professional in the political sense and even if they appear to have an agenda, it's not really an agenda, but rather just a personal outlook.

I disagree. It's an open forum not a tribunal. There is already forum rules ( https://www.airliners.net/forum/forumrules.php ).
I personally enjoy posts from professionals debating facts, regardless of there interest if there have one.

Although this is in no way a tribunal, the words here can be expected to have impact beyond this forum, so what is said here is not without consequence. To be candid PixelFlight, I have observed your point of view over many posts and it appears to me that you share the same perspective that the client(s) of the person we are discussing would like to see promoted; so I don't find it surprising that you see this particular issue the way you do. Were you to find that a poster here was being paid to post here by an entity that opposes your view, I have doubts that you would be so supportive.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:27 pm

I hate this argument. How in the hell are we to know who is “on the payroll” somewhere? At least with one person we know exactly who they are. Who is everybody else? What are their “interests”?

Iow, it’s a big fat strawman to imply that because we know where one forum member stands that we should be concerned about them. I’m more concerned about the ones we DONT know the true intentions of.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
salttee
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:26 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I hate this argument. How in the hell are we to know who is “on the payroll” somewhere? At least with one person we know exactly who they are. Who is everybody else? What are their “interests”?

Iow, it’s a big fat strawman to imply that because we know where one forum member stands that we should be concerned about them. I’m more concerned about the ones we DONT know the true intentions of.
If you hate this discussion why are you prolonging it?

I have a lot more I can say on the subject but I will only do so if invited.........................................

And I'm beginning to feel invited.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9506
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:46 am

salttee wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I hate this argument. How in the hell are we to know who is “on the payroll” somewhere? At least with one person we know exactly who they are. Who is everybody else? What are their “interests”?

Iow, it’s a big fat strawman to imply that because we know where one forum member stands that we should be concerned about them. I’m more concerned about the ones we DONT know the true intentions of.
If you hate this discussion why are you prolonging it?

I have a lot more I can say on the subject but I will only do so if invited.........................................

And I'm beginning to feel invited.


So everyone shut up and let Saltee talk? Got it.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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