Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
N292UX wrote:Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....
yeogeo wrote:Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?
DLHAM wrote:I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
COA75 wrote:Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things
OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.
However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.
What are your thoughts on this?
DLHAM wrote:Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.
Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.
Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course.N292UX wrote:Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....
If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.yeogeo wrote:Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?
I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround.
MIflyer12 wrote:A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.
ua900 wrote:[
What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever.
COA75 wrote:Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things
OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.
However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.
What are your thoughts on this?
janders wrote:Its the old story.
Just because there is a market in statistics and planes seem full especially in summers does not mean a market is profitable.
UA and its Atlatic JV partner LH certainly have plenty of data after years of experience to come to the conclusion they have regardless of arguments of locals members. Route clearly was a financial loser.
master14225 wrote:Tbh I could see AC doing better with a YYZ-HAM route, then u got loads with both Canada and US bound pax. Also EWR is not the most convenient place for those who want to go to manhattan or long island.
master14225 wrote:Tbh I could see AC doing better with a YYZ-HAM route, then u got loads with both Canada and US bound pax. Also EWR is not the most convenient place for those who want to go to manhattan or long island.
ua900 wrote:COA75 wrote:Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things
OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.
However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.
What are your thoughts on this?
What could the airport have said or done, something airline friendly like "let's make things better for United"? They clearly weren't about to.
First of all, you can forget about that parking zone in front of the terminal, your time spent trying to get to the counter (and not get run over on that little street in between) would almost always get you one of those lovely ten Euro tickets. Can't get the Hertz car back to the car rental when toting the standard business / elite traveler luggage of 3x 32kgs because HAM takes like 1/4 mile walk back from the facility to the terminal.
Secondly, the UA counter on the far side in the back right corner had people wrap around the building perimeter around the walls and back to the front entrance. Good luck trying to get through through security after that, no gold track, just the courtesy passes if your flight is departing too soon. Which it just might thanks to the long lines at the counter.
Lastly, given that you'll be late the LH Senator lounge won't do you any good, since you'll have to go all the way to the end of the terminal past two immigration officers (yup, two counters) and pass them too if you want to catch your UA flight there.DLHAM wrote:Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.
Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.
Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course.N292UX wrote:Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....
If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.yeogeo wrote:Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?
I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround.
Not sure how the 752 CO product was any better than a UA 763. The cubbies seemed smaller on CO, but they were both flat beds. Either way, lots of other 752 routes to Europe either got canned or upgauged to the 763/4s, it just isn't sustainable anymore to fly these birds TATL when stretching their range to the limit, as much as I loved flying them. Service itself wasn't that great on CO under Smisek, and I think it has somewhat improved (morale too) under Oscar. I agree with you that HAM has way more locally based premium travelers than TXL, but at least TXL walk from car to gate is like 20 feet, and from there to the plane another 20 feet now that they don't use those godawful buses anymore. Gate also separates nicely better Business / First and Economy, even though boarding itself gets crowded in both places due to the small Euro-style gates.
What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever. I get that Europeans often don't want to acknowledge that, but if you want to fill your premium cabin you guys should hustle a bit. Even UA is using MB GLS inter-terminal transfers at EWR now, along with the helicopter transfers to the city. They are clearly learning from LH at FRA on the cars and from LH at MUC for the helicopters. HAM has yet to add that, so my guess is that Hamburgers will still go to FRA/MUC for LH as you say and everyone EW can go to DUS.
janders wrote:Its the old story.
Just because there is a market in statistics and planes seem full especially in summers does not mean a market is profitable.
UA and its Atlatic JV partner LH certainly have plenty of data after years of experience to come to the conclusion they have regardless of arguments of locals members. Route clearly was a financial loser.
ua900 wrote:I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. ...
What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better.
DLHAM wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.
I think Delta would do just fine with the 767-300, but it would have to be yearround to attract business travellers. 120.000 passengers annually between HAM and NYC.
Regarding HAM-JFK, with a restrained 130% increase of demand with the Nonstop plus a very restrained number of 30% connecting passengers (46% on United HAM-EWR) - minus 70% of the original demand because not all passengers would fly Delta - I get very reasonable loads, especially in months where a seasonal flight would not operate. Only Jan and Feb are poor, traditionally.
ua900 wrote:COA75 wrote:Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things
OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.
However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.
What are your thoughts on this?
What could the airport have said or done, something airline friendly like "let's make things better for United"? They clearly weren't about to.
First of all, you can forget about that parking zone in front of the terminal, your time spent trying to get to the counter (and not get run over on that little street in between) would almost always get you one of those lovely ten Euro tickets. Can't get the Hertz car back to the car rental when toting the standard business / elite traveler luggage of 3x 32kgs because HAM takes like 1/4 mile walk back from the facility to the terminal.
Secondly, the UA counter on the far side in the back right corner had people wrap around the building perimeter around the walls and back to the front entrance. Good luck trying to get through through security after that, no gold track, just the courtesy passes if your flight is departing too soon. Which it just might thanks to the long lines at the counter.
Lastly, given that you'll be late the LH Senator lounge won't do you any good, since you'll have to go all the way to the end of the terminal past two immigration officers (yup, two counters) and pass them too if you want to catch your UA flight there.DLHAM wrote:Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.
Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.
Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course.N292UX wrote:Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....
If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.yeogeo wrote:Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?
I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround.
Not sure how the 752 CO product was any better than a UA 763. The cubbies seemed smaller on CO, but they were both flat beds. Either way, lots of other 752 routes to Europe either got canned or upgauged to the 763/4s, it just isn't sustainable anymore to fly these birds TATL when stretching their range to the limit, as much as I loved flying them. Service itself wasn't that great on CO under Smisek, and I think it has somewhat improved (morale too) under Oscar. I agree with you that HAM has way more locally based premium travelers than TXL, but at least TXL walk from car to gate is like 20 feet, and from there to the plane another 20 feet now that they don't use those godawful buses anymore. Gate also separates nicely better Business / First and Economy, even though boarding itself gets crowded in both places due to the small Euro-style gates.
What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever. I get that Europeans often don't want to acknowledge that, but if you want to fill your premium cabin you guys should hustle a bit. Even UA is using MB GLS inter-terminal transfers at EWR now, along with the helicopter transfers to the city. They are clearly learning from LH at FRA on the cars and from LH at MUC for the helicopters. HAM has yet to add that, so my guess is that Hamburgers will still go to FRA/MUC for LH as you say and everyone EW can go to DUS.
OSL777FLYER wrote:I remember back when Lufthansa flew A310-300's to JFK from Hamburg. If Lufthansa will resume any long-haul services from HAM, it will be with Eurowings since LH use their own metal only out of FRA or MUC.
You would think there would be market for TATL flights. I know Emirates did a DXB-HAM-JFK flight for a while , but it was dropped.
OSL777FLYER wrote:Sad for HAM airport. Hamburg is Germany's second largest city with a healthy economy. It is strange that no direct flights to the US will exist in the future.
I remember back when Lufthansa flew A310-300's to JFK from Hamburg. If Lufthansa will resume any long-haul services from HAM, it will be with Eurowings since LH use their own metal only out of FRA or MUC.
You would think there would be market for TATL flights. I know Emirates did a DXB-HAM-JFK flight for a while , but it was dropped.
Although a wonderful airport, I guess HAM will be used through connections only. LH through FRA or MUC, SK through CPH or KL through AMS, but one can hope........
MIflyer12 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.
jumbojet wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:DLHAM wrote:I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!
A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.
I thought I read on here some time ago that DL doesnt have the range issues that UA does on the 757's that fly TATL primarily due to the diffenent engies that are used.
aemoreira1981 wrote:I was just thinking about this---but what about B6 if they get the A321LR and have TATL ambitions? They obviously can't immediately break into primary Europe, but they could do secondary destinations with strong brand recognition in the USA [...]
aemoreira1981 wrote:Another entity to watch here could be Norwegian...they have 30 A321LRs on order through their own leasing division that they will likely operate themselves instead of offering for dry lease---could secondary Germany (and secondary France, and other places where a wide-body would be too big) be a desire for them too? This is where it could be B6 versus DY/D8 on who pounces first.
mxaxai wrote:Literally nobody in Germany has ever heard of JetBlue. They'd need a ton of advertising and lots of patience to eventually succeed.
ual763 wrote:[It takes just as long, if not shorter to get to Manhattan from EWR as it does from JFK. Now, Long Island, yes, JFK is obviously shorter.
WIederling wrote:mxaxai wrote:Literally nobody in Germany has ever heard of JetBlue. They'd need a ton of advertising and lots of patience to eventually succeed.
Is that valid?
In times of ticket search sites and meta^n search sites and other derivatives is that still a holdback?
IMU you only need being listed at a search site or two.
aemoreira1981 wrote:Currently, HAM to North America is available on FI seasonally, 4x weekly on a mix of Boeing 757-200 and Boeing 737 MAX 8 equipment
jumbojet wrote:ual763 wrote:[It takes just as long, if not shorter to get to Manhattan from EWR as it does from JFK. Now, Long Island, yes, JFK is obviously shorter.
Your statement is factually incorrect. I have said it many times before that it all depends on where in Manhattan you are. The east side of Manhattan will usually be a much quicker ride to JFK. Conversely speaking, the west side of Manhattan will be fastest to EWR. The other borough's, while not as signifcant a financial driver as Manhattan, all lean towards JFK being the quickest and easiest to get to.
YYZLGA wrote:It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.
YYZLGA wrote:It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.
WIederling wrote:YYZLGA wrote:It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.
High Speed Rail and Roads. ... and a thick carpet of Nimbys everywhere.
YYZLGA wrote:Hamburg-FRA by rail is 4 hours, while Lyon-CDG (similar distance) is 2 hours. I doubt that many people from HAM are connecting to international flights at FRA by rail, compared with the numbers connecting from Lyon by rail to CDG.
LH779 wrote:Apart from the generally higher speed in France (usually more than 300km/h) the TGV only stops once between Lyon and CDG and that stop is very close to CDG. The ICE from Hamburg to FRA stops in Hannover, Göttingen, Kassel and has to change direction in Frankfurt. On top of that the max speed isn't as high as the one of the TGV line.