DL Capacity on JFK-DTW: Why so low?

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:47 pm

First off, I know the heavier focus is on LGA, but for a hub to hub route, the 1x 717 and 3x CR9 on JFK-DTW still seems pretty pathetic if you ask me. Even JFK-MSP is all mainline right now. What's the deal with all of these RJs on a Hub-Hub route? Any one know? I would think this could at least support 3-4 717s daily.

FromCDGtoSYD · Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Flew this route 2 months ago and was in a A320 so there definitely is mainline flying

klm617 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:58 pm

I just think there is so much access from DTW over AMS and CDG that most of the O/D traffic to Europe is being flowed over those hubs. Let's face it a connection in AMS is way better than one at JFK.

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:02 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Flew this route 2 months ago and was in a A320 so there definitely is mainline flying

There's one mainline flight per day. It may have been an A320 then, it's a 717 today. The rest are CR9s.

klm617 wrote:
I just think there is so much access from DTW over AMS and CDG that most of the O/D traffic to Europe is being flowed over those hubs. Let's face it a connection in AMS is way better than one at JFK.

And what about connecting traffic westbound? Believe me people fly from JFK-DTW-XXX instead of LGA-DTW-XXX. I'm one that will do it, but if I have the choice of a CR9 on JFK-DTW or an A320 on LGA-DTW, I'm picking LGA-DTW. It's still hub to hub so I'm a bit dumbfounded regardless of what international offerings DTW has. They can flow connections on either end.

RamblinMan · Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:21 pm

Because most of the NYC O&D that's gonna connect through DTW is originating at LGA not JFK, and most of the DTW O&D heading to places not served directly from DTW will go via AMS or CDG instead of JFK.

Just because it's a hub on both ends does not mean there will be a ton of traffic. In this case, it seems multiple CR9s with a 717 is sufficient.

Or it might be because DL hates DTW. You can believe whatever you want.

TW870 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:22 pm

evank516 wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Flew this route 2 months ago and was in a A320 so there definitely is mainline flying

There's one mainline flight per day. It may have been an A320 then, it's a 717 today. The rest are CR9s.

klm617 wrote:
I just think there is so much access from DTW over AMS and CDG that most of the O/D traffic to Europe is being flowed over those hubs. Let's face it a connection in AMS is way better than one at JFK.

And what about connecting traffic westbound? Believe me people fly from JFK-DTW-XXX instead of LGA-DTW-XXX. I'm one that will do it, but if I have the choice of a CR9 on JFK-DTW or an A320 on LGA-DTW, I'm picking LGA-DTW. It's still hub to hub so I'm a bit dumbfounded regardless of what international offerings DTW has. They can flow connections on either end.

I think Delta sees JFK as still primarily for New York O+D on boutique long haul and transcon flights. It is just a much bigger version of how carriers from TW to PA to UA have run their Kennedy operations in the past. When I flew for UA in the late-1990s, we didn't even serve ORD or DEN-JFK even though we flew LHR, EZE, GRU, CCS, SJU, and a whole host of other destinations out of JFK, and had a large (mostly ex-PA) frequent flyer base in New York. I think the lack of Kennedy-hub service originally had to do with how far Kennedy was from where most wealthier New Yorkers lived and worked. Now that southern and eastern Brooklyn are gentrifying, this is changing, and thus you are seeing JFK-DTW-XXX or JFK-MSP-XXX connections. A decade ago, you wouldn't have even seen 1x717 and 3xCR9 I am guessing.

MIflyer12 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:42 pm

TW870 wrote:
A decade ago, you wouldn't have even seen 1x717 and 3xCR9 I am guessing.

You would be correct. Make it a little less than a decade because fully ten years ago was pre-merger and NW's JFK domestic ops were pretty minimal.

No other carrier is even serving DTW-JFK tomorrow so I question any assertion of unmet demand - at least at the RASMs Delta wants to see.

PANYNJ surveys are unequivocal that LGA sees a higher fraction of O&D traffic than JFK or EWR, no matter the OP's fondness for JFK. Delta has DTW-4x to White Plains, 4x to JFK, 9x to LGA and 8x to EWR tomorrow. That seems to cover NYC pretty thoroughly.

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:12 pm

I mean I get all of the arguments. It's just that using more RJs than mainline seems a little odd, even if JFK is more O&D. You have much wealthier populations closer to JFK than you did before, so I suppose it could change, but even JFK-MSP has seen an uptick recently.

And FYI, I'm definitely not on the Delta Hates DTW Bandwagon. I just found it odd.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:25 pm

1) The amount of DTW-NYC flights into other airports, primarily LGA
2) Hub connectivity in JFK for DTW O&D is minimal; other than some international connections, but vast majority can be reached over AMS, CDG, or ATL
3) Hub connectivity in DTW for JFK O&D is not as critical, due to all the nonstop options from NYC, and connecting options to points west better reached over ATL, MSP, SLC, SEA, or LAX nonshops
4) Use as a way to bridge 9E / Endeavor CR9s and crews between two of its larger bases in DTW & JFK.
5) MSP-JFK is over 1000 miles versus <500 miles for DTW-JFK and would be at the longer end of 2-class RJ flights, especially factoring NYC airspace constraints / in-flights holds

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:40 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
1) The amount of DTW-NYC flights into other airports, primarily LGA
2) Hub connectivity in JFK for DTW O&D is minimal; other than some international connections, but vast majority can be reached over AMS, CDG, or ATL
3) Hub connectivity in DTW for JFK O&D is not as critical, due to all the nonstop options from NYC, and connecting options to points west better reached over ATL, MSP, SLC, SEA, or LAX nonshops
4) Use as a way to bridge 9E / Endeavor CR9s and crews between two of its larger bases in DTW & JFK.
5) MSP-JFK is over 1000 miles versus <500 miles for DTW-JFK and would be at the longer end of 2-class RJ flights, especially factoring NYC airspace constraints / in-flights holds

All good, points, however DTW-JFK is actually just OVER 500 miles. Literally by a smidgen, but still over and doesn't matter either way.

cledaybuck · Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:49 pm

LGA is the preferred airport for NYC O&D and DTW doesn't need many of the connections that JFK offers. It's really that simple.

GSP psgr · Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:56 pm

I'm honestly more surprised that EWR-DTW isn't all mainline than at the service levels on JFK-DTW. Maybe once the 717s are redeployed from NYC and LAX operations.....

TWFlyGuy · Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm

So, I think everyone understands the purpose of the DTW-JFK flight...funnel pax to TATL flights. Sure, some O&D but mostly feed to TATL. When you flip it around and say what are the top JFK destinations that would be fed via DTW? The big transcons are covered non-stop. Many secondary markets are covered non-stop from LGA. So, for the few remaining connections of value, you don't need many seats. This has been a role JFK played for many airlines. The local market from JFK to markets inside the LGA perimeter isn't very big. Look at B6's footprint and notice how the midwest which largely fits in the perimeter is totally missing. that's not to say there is no demand to NY from these markets it's just that it's not to JFK.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:05 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
I'm honestly more surprised that EWR-DTW isn't all mainline than at the service levels on JFK-DTW. Maybe once the 717s are redeployed from NYC and LAX operations.....

Since you are flying into a major competitors' hub that has nonstop options to many of the same connecting flows you would be serving over DTW. Focus more on the O&D and DTW point-of-sale traffic, don't need to chase lower yielding connecting fares. Plus all the nonstop options at LGA and JFK as well.

Keep in mind its only fairly recently that UA upgauged DTW-EWR to 2-class RJs, for a good 10+ years it was all 50 seat ERJs going back into the CO days on DTW-EWR.

MSPNWA · Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:14 pm

Biggest reason? No competition. The contrast between MSP-JFK and DTW-JFK illustrates this perfectly. No reason MSP-JFK should have nearly three times the capacity.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:01 pm

MSP-LGA has fewer frequencies than DTW-LGA, but I'd argue that MSP-JFK makes more sense to have more capacity than DTW to JFK because it has more limited markets and better serves more markets outside of the LGA perimeter.

JFK-MSP serves connecting flows into the Upper Midwest, Northern Rockies, and Western Canada that either have limited NYC access, beyond LGA perimeter, and best served via connections over MSP and have limited/no flights from DTW.

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:50 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MSP-LGA has fewer frequencies than DTW-LGA, but I'd argue that MSP-JFK makes more sense to have more capacity than DTW to JFK because it has more limited markets and better serves more markets outside of the LGA perimeter.

JFK-MSP serves connecting flows into the Upper Midwest, Northern Rockies, and Western Canada that either have limited NYC access, beyond LGA perimeter, and best served via connections over MSP and have limited/no flights from DTW.

You're absolutely right about the limited markets, but what does the LGA perimeter have to do with anything? MSP is within the LGA perimeter and there's no restriction on offering connections outside of it, just nonstop flights.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:02 pm

Many connecting markets that flow over DTW are within the LGA perimeter and have multiple nonstop options on DL or AA.
Places like ORD, MDW, MSN, MKE, GRR, DSM, STL, OMA, IND, Florida, etc.

MSP connecting flows more heavily favor outside-of-perimeter markets that lack nonstop options out of LGA.

evank516 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Many connecting markets that flow over DTW are within the LGA perimeter and have multiple nonstop options on DL or AA.
Places like ORD, MDW, MSN, MKE, GRR, DSM, STL, OMA, IND, Florida, etc.

MSP connecting flows more heavily favor outside-of-perimeter markets that lack nonstop options out of LGA.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

cvgComair · Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 pm

Just look at CVG/RDU-JFK. Both cities are DL focus cities/mini-hubs and have a strong DL following, yet they only offer 1x/day on CVG-JFK, while CVG-RDU has 5x/day. The big difference is competition from B6/AA on the route. If B6 (or any other carrier) were to add CVG-JFK, DL would suddenly be operating 4 or 5x/day on the route. The same applies for DTW.

tphuang · Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:06 pm

It could be the more obvious answer that msp is further away or have less business tie with New York. For most people making 3 hour flights, the difference between lga and jfk is not that big of a deal. Especially for the ones taking public transit out in New York.

jbs2886 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:09 pm

cvgComair wrote:
Just look at CVG/RDU-JFK. Both cities are DL focus cities/mini-hubs and have a strong DL following, yet they only offer 1x/day on CVG-JFK, while CVG-RDU has 5x/day. The big difference is competition from B6/AA on the route. If B6 (or any other carrier) were to add CVG-JFK, DL would suddenly be operating 4 or 5x/day on the route. The same applies for DTW.

CVG-RDU has 5x a day? I assume you mean LGA-RDU. Regardless, maybe there is just more demand from RDU to NYC than from CVG? Its not just competitive capacity.

gsg013 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:03 pm

Agree with a lot of the posts above. If you are going to connect in DTW from NYC makes much more sense to do it from LGA than JFK. In most cases coming from Manhattan in a taxi or car you drive directly by LGA on your way to JFK.

For such a short flight LGA-DTW is much less of a hassle than trecking all the way out to JFK

airzona11 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:18 pm

evank516 wrote:
First off, I know the heavier focus is on LGA, but for a hub to hub route, the 1x 717 and 3x CR9 on JFK-DTW still seems pretty pathetic if you ask me. Even JFK-MSP is all mainline right now. What's the deal with all of these RJs on a Hub-Hub route? Any one know? I would think this could at least support 3-4 717s daily.

What DL Hub can you not get to from LGA where they would be missing any connections?

stlgph · Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:23 pm

airzona11 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
First off, I know the heavier focus is on LGA, but for a hub to hub route, the 1x 717 and 3x CR9 on JFK-DTW still seems pretty pathetic if you ask me. Even JFK-MSP is all mainline right now. What's the deal with all of these RJs on a Hub-Hub route? Any one know? I would think this could at least support 3-4 717s daily.

What DL Hub can you not get to from LGA where they would be missing any connections?

Salt Lake with the luxury of a nonstop. Plenty of ways to get there, just a number of SLC connecting towns means another leg of the trip added to the venture.

1st world problems.

gsg013 · Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:31 pm

stlgph wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
First off, I know the heavier focus is on LGA, but for a hub to hub route, the 1x 717 and 3x CR9 on JFK-DTW still seems pretty pathetic if you ask me. Even JFK-MSP is all mainline right now. What's the deal with all of these RJs on a Hub-Hub route? Any one know? I would think this could at least support 3-4 717s daily.

What DL Hub can you not get to from LGA where they would be missing any connections?

Salt Lake with the luxury of a nonstop. Plenty of ways to get there, just a number of SLC connecting towns means another leg of the trip added to the venture.

1st world problems.

Yes that's true but that is because of the perimeter rule LGA-SLC is not allowed due to perimeter rule so those flight go JFK-SLC for Hub-Hub and DL also flies EWR-SLC if you are coming from NJ or Manhattan and dont want to trek to JFK

TW870 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:27 am

TWFlyGuy wrote:
So, I think everyone understands the purpose of the DTW-JFK flight...funnel pax to TATL flights. .

Actually, I am not sure this is true - especially after the summer high season. You probably get more TATL volume in the summer for connections from DTW to the specialty flights like PDL or AGP or PRG. But as others have said, the AMS, CDG, and LHR hub service out of DTW covers most of this - especially in the off season. The Africa flying is all DL really needs to feed from DTW at JFK. I think this service is quite a bit different than the old TATL feed model at PA and TW (when TW did routes like MSP-IND-JFK once a day with a 72S). I am guessing that there is a good amount of JFK point of sale from folks in Brooklyn that is either O+D to DTW or to markets without NYC non-stops. JFK is also desirable for people in southern Brooklyn even for cities that have LGA non-stops - because getting to LGA is a complete nightmare and it is easier to connect in DTW than to get to LGA in an uber, in a cab, or on transit - especially at rush hour. But overall I agree completely that this is a small market.

evank516 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:14 pm

TW870 wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
So, I think everyone understands the purpose of the DTW-JFK flight...funnel pax to TATL flights. .

Actually, I am not sure this is true - especially after the summer high season. You probably get more TATL volume in the summer for connections from DTW to the specialty flights like PDL or AGP or PRG. But as others have said, the AMS, CDG, and LHR hub service out of DTW covers most of this - especially in the off season. The Africa flying is all DL really needs to feed from DTW at JFK. I think this service is quite a bit different than the old TATL feed model at PA and TW (when TW did routes like MSP-IND-JFK once a day with a 72S). I am guessing that there is a good amount of JFK point of sale from folks in Brooklyn that is either O+D to DTW or to markets without NYC non-stops. JFK is also desirable for people in southern Brooklyn even for cities that have LGA non-stops - because getting to LGA is a complete nightmare and it is easier to connect in DTW than to get to LGA in an uber, in a cab, or on transit - especially at rush hour. But overall I agree completely that this is a small market.

There's a good amount of JFK point of sale from Long Island too. Quite a few wealthy communities along the south shore of Long Island that will use JFK.

flymco753 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:19 pm

Here's the problem. Once B6 IF they even do, start JFK-DTW...DL will mysteriously deploy all mainline on the route. Look at NK's recent JAX add as an example. DL controlled market with a daily CR7 is now 1x NK A320 and 2x DL M90. Another good one is MSY, which DL trashed, NK went in, boom! 3 daily 717's.

TTailedTiger · Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:28 pm

It seems people from Detroit would do well to learn what the saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" means. Like I said in another thread, they seem to think they are owed service to every corner of the earth. They should be deliriously happy to have the service they have with DL. No other airline has ever or will ever be beating down the door to have a hub there.

slcdeltarumd11 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:31 pm

EWR and LGA are the preferences for alot of O&D. JFK also offers flights to many places people would connect in DTW, so its less needed.

evank516 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:04 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It seems people from Detroit would do well to learn what the saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" means. Like I said in another thread, they seem to think they are owed service to every corner of the earth. They should be deliriously happy to have the service they have with DL. No other airline has ever or will ever be beating down the door to have a hub there.

Are you implying that I'm from Detroit? If so you are incredibly incorrect. I created this thread out of genuine curiosity as to why a hub to hub route was dominated by RJs, by an airline that favors mainline in many markets where others do not, and it is the only hub to hub route in its network to be in this situation as far as my research can tell. But if you must know, I'm from NY. Long Island to be exact. Even funnier, I've only been through DTW once in my entire life (JFK-DTW-ORD ironically) and will be making my second connection there in January.

jfklganyc · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
A decade ago, you wouldn't have even seen 1x717 and 3xCR9 I am guessing.

You would be correct. Make it a little less than a decade because fully ten years ago was pre-merger and NW's JFK domestic ops were pretty minimal.

No other carrier is even serving DTW-JFK tomorrow so I question any assertion of unmet demand - at least at the RASMs Delta wants to see.

PANYNJ surveys are unequivocal that LGA sees a higher fraction of O&D traffic than JFK or EWR, no matter the OP's fondness for JFK. Delta has DTW-4x to White Plains, 4x to JFK, 9x to LGA and 8x to EWR tomorrow. That seems to cover NYC pretty thoroughly.

Im pretty sure NW was 4 daily DC 9s to JFK. Something similar to MSP.

NW had more service to DTW and MSP than Delta does now.

Someone could look up exact schedules.

They did not serve JFK-MEM.

evank516 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
A decade ago, you wouldn't have even seen 1x717 and 3xCR9 I am guessing.

You would be correct. Make it a little less than a decade because fully ten years ago was pre-merger and NW's JFK domestic ops were pretty minimal.

No other carrier is even serving DTW-JFK tomorrow so I question any assertion of unmet demand - at least at the RASMs Delta wants to see.

PANYNJ surveys are unequivocal that LGA sees a higher fraction of O&D traffic than JFK or EWR, no matter the OP's fondness for JFK. Delta has DTW-4x to White Plains, 4x to JFK, 9x to LGA and 8x to EWR tomorrow. That seems to cover NYC pretty thoroughly.

Im pretty sure NW was 4 daily DC 9s to JFK. Something similar to MSP.

NW had more service to DTW and MSP than Delta does now.

Someone could look up exact schedules.

They did not serve JFK-MEM.

I'm inclined to agree. I think I remember it being mentioned on here in the past.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:36 pm

For fun, while its not even really relevant to today's discussion, here is NW's JFK schedule from Summer 2005, the oldest one that I have most readily available in electronic format:

DTW: 3x (CRJ, CRJ, D9S)
MSP: 3x (CRJ, D9S, D9S)
NRT: 1x (744)

evank516 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
For fun, while its not even really relevant to today's discussion, here is NW's JFK schedule from Summer 2005, the oldest one that I have most readily available in electronic format:

DTW: 3x (CRJ, CRJ, D9S)
MSP: 3x (CRJ, D9S, D9S)
NRT: 1x (744)

Interesting. How do you look these up? Departed Flights doesn't go up to the merger.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:43 pm

I have almost every PDF timetable for NW saved on my computer from 2005-2010.
I have a box of an assortment of old hardcopy timetables somewhere at home going back from about 1995-2002 for various airlines including AA & NW.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:49 pm

FWIW, can you imagine how fun MSP-JFK would be on a CRJ, but that was back in the hey-day of really long 50-seat RJ routes.

Summer 2008 was:
DTW: 3x (D9S, D9S, D9S)
MSP: 3x (320, 320, 319)

gsg013 · Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:28 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FWIW, can you imagine how fun MSP-JFK would be on a CRJ, but that was back in the hey-day of really long 50-seat RJ routes.

Summer 2008 was:
DTW: 3x (D9S, D9S, D9S)
MSP: 3x (320, 320, 319)

MSP-JFK is essentially the same as MSP-EWR on DL which is served by a CR-900 I can tell you it is not really a fun flight on such a small plane.

Reminds me of one time 9 years ago when I flew EWR-NAS on UA express on an ER-135 that was not fun at all.

TW870 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:05 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FWIW, can you imagine how fun MSP-JFK would be on a CRJ, but that was back in the hey-day of really long 50-seat RJ routes.

Summer 2008 was:
DTW: 3x (D9S, D9S, D9S)
MSP: 3x (320, 320, 319)

Interesting, and thanks so much for posting. I am surprised there was that much capacity. I remember in the late 80s always being so struck that NW flew the high gross weight 747-200Bs on both JFK-NRT and JFK-OSA/KIX, but that their only domestic flight was something like 1 daily D9S to MSP. I think there was quite a while that they didn't serve JFK at all from DTW after deregulation. I always wondered what had changed from the original days of 1970 when NW's first revenue 747 flight was MSP-JFK. The discussion above helps clarify those dynamics.

gaystudpilot · Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 am

TW870 wrote:
I think Delta sees JFK as still primarily for New York O+D on boutique long haul and transcon flights.

Boutique long haul? What do you mean “boutique long haul?” What are examples of Delta’s “boutique long haul” flights out of JFK?

Are you therefore suggesting that Delta’s JFK operations are a boutique hub?

Cory6188 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:41 am

gaystudpilot wrote:
Boutique long haul? What do you mean “boutique long haul?” What are examples of Delta’s “boutique long haul” flights out of JFK?

Are you therefore suggesting that Delta’s JFK operations are a boutique hub?

To be fair, DL does have some unique routes out of JFK. PDL, AGP, PSA, VCE, DSS, and NCE come to mind. They're not quite the old standard LHRs and CDGs of the world.

klm617 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:53 am

TW870 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FWIW, can you imagine how fun MSP-JFK would be on a CRJ, but that was back in the hey-day of really long 50-seat RJ routes.

Summer 2008 was:
DTW: 3x (D9S, D9S, D9S)
MSP: 3x (320, 320, 319)

Interesting, and thanks so much for posting. I am surprised there was that much capacity. I remember in the late 80s always being so struck that NW flew the high gross weight 747-200Bs on both JFK-NRT and JFK-OSA/KIX, but that their only domestic flight was something like 1 daily D9S to MSP. I think there was quite a while that they didn't serve JFK at all from DTW after deregulation. I always wondered what had changed from the original days of 1970 when NW's first revenue 747 flight was MSP-JFK. The discussion above helps clarify those dynamics.

After deregulation Northwest Orient flew DTW-JFK twice daily with a 747 flights 245 and flight 31/221 in the summer it was one stop from DTW to CPH via JFK on a 747. In 1979 I flew NW 245 from JFK to DTW on a 747. Flight 245 was mainly for carrying cargo between JFK and DTW as it left JFK at around 1 AM for Detroit

TW870 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
FWIW, can you imagine how fun MSP-JFK would be on a CRJ, but that was back in the hey-day of really long 50-seat RJ routes.

Summer 2008 was:
DTW: 3x (D9S, D9S, D9S)
MSP: 3x (320, 320, 319)

Interesting, and thanks so much for posting. I am surprised there was that much capacity. I remember in the late 80s always being so struck that NW flew the high gross weight 747-200Bs on both JFK-NRT and JFK-OSA/KIX, but that their only domestic flight was something like 1 daily D9S to MSP. I think there was quite a while that they didn't serve JFK at all from DTW after deregulation. I always wondered what had changed from the original days of 1970 when NW's first revenue 747 flight was MSP-JFK. The discussion above helps clarify those dynamics.

After deregulation Northwest Orient flew DTW-JFK twice daily with a 747 flights 245 and flight 31/221 in the summer it was one stop from DTW to CPH via JFK on a 747. In 1979 I flew NW 245 from JFK to DTW on a 747. Flight 245 was mainly for carrying cargo between JFK and DTW as it left JFK at around 1 AM for Detroit

Oh yes I remember that extremely late night 747. But didn't that all stop once the northern Europe operation shut down at JFK, and those JFK 747s ended up being turnbacks to Asia? By the time NW consolidated the east coast Europe ops at BOS in the 1980s, did they serve DTW-JFK at all?

klm617 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:34 pm

TW870 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Interesting, and thanks so much for posting. I am surprised there was that much capacity. I remember in the late 80s always being so struck that NW flew the high gross weight 747-200Bs on both JFK-NRT and JFK-OSA/KIX, but that their only domestic flight was something like 1 daily D9S to MSP. I think there was quite a while that they didn't serve JFK at all from DTW after deregulation. I always wondered what had changed from the original days of 1970 when NW's first revenue 747 flight was MSP-JFK. The discussion above helps clarify those dynamics.

After deregulation Northwest Orient flew DTW-JFK twice daily with a 747 flights 245 and flight 31/221 in the summer it was one stop from DTW to CPH via JFK on a 747. In 1979 I flew NW 245 from JFK to DTW on a 747. Flight 245 was mainly for carrying cargo between JFK and DTW as it left JFK at around 1 AM for Detroit

Oh yes I remember that extremely late night 747. But didn't that all stop once the northern Europe operation shut down at JFK, and those JFK 747s ended up being turnbacks to Asia? By the time NW consolidated the east coast Europe ops at BOS in the 1980s, did they serve DTW-JFK at all?

The Northern European operations shut down after the merger with Republic in fact Northwest operated the DC10 DTW-JFK in 1986 after that merger and it went on to Ireland from JFK. The only city Northwest dropped early was HAM all the rest SNN, DUB, PIK, GEN, ARN and CPH were all operated still when Northwest and Republic merged. Northwest had even applied for twice weekly DTW-LGW nonstop around 1983 or 1984 but that never happened.

peanuts · Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I have almost every PDF timetable for NW saved on my computer from 2005-2010.
I have a box of an assortment of old hardcopy timetables somewhere at home going back from about 1995-2002 for various airlines including AA & NW.

I just have to say I think NW's timetable format was probably the best on the planet. It was simple and was more interesting than any other as it showed clearly routes/equipment out of each airport (without all the clutter of connection opportunities). It gave you more of a sense of what was going on with their route network.
I can only dream of a DL timetable like that...

peanuts · Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:51 pm

klm617 · Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:09 pm

peanuts wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I have almost every PDF timetable for NW saved on my computer from 2005-2010.
I have a box of an assortment of old hardcopy timetables somewhere at home going back from about 1995-2002 for various airlines including AA & NW.

I just have to say I think NW's timetable format was probably the best on the planet. It was simple and was more interesting than any other as it showed clearly routes/equipment out of each airport (without all the clutter of connection opportunities). It gave you more of a sense of what was going on with their route network.
I can only dream of a DL timetable like that...

That timetable format was originally created by Republic and yes as an avid avgeek it was a dream come true it was like having you own little OAG for Northwest Airlines

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