After reading the news regarding the Emirates A380
Order, it seems the aircraft does not have a great future in the passenger market at least. This brings me to the thought, would it be able to stay in production if a freighter variant was offered?

I have heard people say that the 747 is better for freight and things like that, but at one point Fedex and UPS did their due diligence and ordered this plane, only cancelling due to program delays. Since that time e-commerce and cross border trade have grown immensely so it seems like it would be in even higher demand now.

The air cargo market tends to have a lot of hub and spoke operations and the dynamic there has not changed much since Fedex and UPS ordered the A380 previously.

Now we also have Amazon in the freight businesss who may be interested in a disruptive plane like this that can carry large volumes of packages around.

What do you think?

No. It would probably finish it off. Boeing pretty much has the new build freighter market cornered. The case against a converted A380 freighter has been made here far too many times. The cost to engineer a new build A380 freighter would just be more cost that will never be recovered. The 747 is a more suitable freighter and is already developed, even so, it is not rolling off the line at four or five a month.

No, and Airbus will never invest the €€€ needed.

There was some full freighter version in development that had firm orders and got cancelled during the "cablegate".

What might help now is some smart conversion program to take used passenger a/c like the ones retiring from Emirates to convert them to maybe big package freighters. Let's say for Amazon or similar. That might help to clear the market from too many cheap used frames to possibly stimulate new passenger aircraft sales and it should not be overly costly.

Still no.

Welcome to the weekly "save the A380" thread.

Looking west for comparison one could say the freighter DOES save the 747 program.

Noshow wrote:

Looking west for comparison one could say the freighter DOES save the 747 program.

The 747 was already designed to be also a capable freighter. The A380 wasn't...

NameOmitted wrote:

To bring some more detail to the consensus here, there are a couple of reasons for the "no."

There is a lot of volume available for the weight, so a freighter world spend most of its time not flying full. Unless you needed to transport flowers, you world btw transporting much more structure thank you need, making for a less than optimal design. The weight involved with having a full third cargo ready deck exacerbates the issue.

Having 3 decks of differing shapes means either adding a new cargo pallet type to the inventory, or additional space inefficiencies.

The third floor world require a completely new set of ground loading/unloading equipment, increasing the costs at any station that world use the aircraft, and limiting the dispatch options to places that had the specialized equipment.

The location of the cockpit precludes a nose door for outsize loading, which means one of the chief advantages of the 747 over a twin would not be available. While this is irrelevant when comparing used aircraft, a converted 747 which does not have a nose door still shares fleet commonality with others that do.

All very sound points.

I'll add another: there's no big launch order out there waiting to be filled like there was back in 2001-2 when the initial orders were made. FX and EK have moved on to 777F and UP has moved on to 748F. All are feeling the impact of big belly airliners being able to carry extra freight loads.

Bottom line is there was a small window of opportunity in the early 2000s that no longer exists.

The only possibility is with DHL. They are a big package hauler, which the A380F would potentially be good at.

What shoots tht in the head is that DHL is only into buying secondhand at the moment, and via their contractors is introducing the A333P2F conversion. The conclusion has to be that it might suit DHL but DHL ain't buying.....nor are the other two big package haulers and new kid on the block Prime Air.

That wingbox and undercarriage at TLS built for the prototype freighter won't be getting used any time soon.

leleko747 wrote:

Noshow wrote:

Looking west for comparison one could say the freighter DOES save the 747 program.

The 747 was already designed to be also a capable freighter. The A380 wasn't...

e-Commerce freight is (generally) volume restricted.

An A380 can carry *ALOT* of boxes from a central warehouse to large population hubs. Think a early morning Tennessee to New York flight with tens of thousands of boxes...

Channex757 wrote:

The only possibility is with DHL. They are a big package hauler, which the A380F would potentially be good at.

What shoots tht in the head is that DHL is only into buying secondhand at the moment, and via their contractors is introducing the A333P2F conversion. The conclusion has to be that it might suit DHL but DHL ain't buying.....nor are the other two big package haulers and new kid on the block Prime Air.

That wingbox and undercarriage at TLS built for the prototype freighter won't be getting used any time soon.

DHL did order 14 new 777Fs earlier this year, so they are not only into buying 2nd hand right now

But with the A380 I don't see Airbus making such an investment at this moment. Developing a freighter variant just to save a program doesn't seem to be very smart decision anyway, no matter type of aircraft. Especially with the market already covered by the competition that offers quick deliveries with competitive prices.

I wasn't aware that the search function on the forums was this inadequate.

I think Garuda Indonesia and Saudi Arabian Airlines are the best candidate to buy A380-800 because they need to transport tons of hajj.

NO
FULL STOP

Channex757 wrote:

The only possibility is with DHL. They are a big package hauler, which the A380F would potentially be good at.

What shoots tht in the head is that DHL is only into buying secondhand at the moment, and via their contractors is introducing the A333P2F conversion. The conclusion has to be that it might suit DHL but DHL ain't buying.....nor are the other two big package haulers and new kid on the block Prime Air.

That wingbox and undercarriage at TLS built for the prototype freighter won't be getting used any time soon.

Even if you combined all their fleets together it wouldn’t equal 5X or FX. They don’t need it anymore than anybody else.

WorldFlier wrote:

leleko747 wrote:

Noshow wrote:

Looking west for comparison one could say the freighter DOES save the 747 program.

The 747 was already designed to be also a capable freighter. The A380 wasn't...

e-Commerce freight is (generally) volume restricted.

An A380 can carry *ALOT* of boxes from a central warehouse to large population hubs. Think a early morning Tennessee to New York flight with tens of thousands of boxes...

But the thing is that doesn’t happen. Air volume is generally smaller and the only time flights are jam packed is during peak periods. The only way that will work is if companies merge all their 1 Day and 2 Day volume onto single flights, which won’t work because they don’t have the capacity on the sorts. Not to mention it’s cheaper to move the 2 Day stuff over the ground.

chrisp390 wrote:

After reading the news regarding the Emirates A380 order, it seems the aircraft does not have a great future in the passenger market at least.

I think it has run its course. The era of the jumbos appears to have peaked and also appears to be on a downhill slide. But hey anything can happen on any given day.

Even if Airbus had a launch customer for the A380F, the program would still be dead. Even with the current order from EK, the 380 is hanging on to deer life! wont last long!

Those that think that developing a passenger to freighter program for the A380 shouldn't be too expensive really need to give their heads a shake, especially when you consider that there won't be many companies interested. Any company investing in such a program would lose their shirts.

The plane was doomed from the start be it passengers or freight. With the exception of a couple of buyers, or really only one, there isnt a need for it. To try and now make it a freighter or exclusive carrier of legos to their manufacturing point is not going to happen.

Everything has a life expectancy or shelf date. This plane is no different. The sooner they close this thing down, the faster it will no longer be a drain on earnings.

Canuck600 wrote:

Those that think that developing a passenger to freighter program for the A380 shouldn't be too expensive really need to give their heads a shake, especially when you consider that there won't be many companies interested. Any company investing in such a program would lose their shirts.

Especially in light of the financial hurdle a P2F program is proving to be with a more or less conventional design in the 777, even with "cheap" feedstock coming online.

jetblueguy22 wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

leleko747 wrote:

The 747 was already designed to be also a capable freighter. The A380 wasn't...

e-Commerce freight is (generally) volume restricted.

An A380 can carry *ALOT* of boxes from a central warehouse to large population hubs. Think a early morning Tennessee to New York flight with tens of thousands of boxes...

But the thing is that doesn’t happen. Air volume is generally smaller and the only time flights are jam packed is during peak periods. The only way that will work is if companies merge all their 1 Day and 2 Day volume onto single flights, which won’t work because they don’t have the capacity on the sorts. Not to mention it’s cheaper to move the 2 Day stuff over the ground.

You're absolutely right. This would have to be a 3PL providing a single flight to all e-Commerce providers on a Nashville-Newark type of Route (and now that Amazon has their own fleet, the point is moot)

The only conceivable option would be invest heavily in the creation of a time travel machine, that way, someone could travel back in time and tell them not the build the thing in the first place...

Sorry, sensible ideas, I’m all out.

OMAA

I will say no, as the problem really is the wingspan at a lot of airports. The Boeing 777F really is optimized for heavier freight that is standard shaped...and if one needs nonstandard freight, one has the 747 with nose loading or the Ilyushin 76, Antonov 124, or Antonov 225. The 747-8 freighter can still use standard 747 routes for the most part...and the A380 will not be able to do nose loading (the 747 was designed with a freighter conversion in mind; some B741s were converted to freighters before their first D-check, and there were early new-build 742(B) freighters with nose loading and a side cargo door.

Noshow wrote:

Looking west for comparison one could say the freighter DOES save the 747 program.

747 has the nose loading, which makes it unique. A380 has the design and cert costs, plus it doesn’t really fit the FX/UPS model.

gia777 wrote:

I think Garuda Indonesia and Saudi Arabian Airlines are the best candidate to buy A380-800 because they need to transport tons of hajj.

What about secondhand A343s that still have significant hours left, such as the Air Tahiti Nui frames? They could be in a Y360 configuration. (Garuda has 212t A333s in a Y360 configuration.)

chunhimlai wrote:

NO
FULL STOP

I wish that you could be more realistic with your other posts when replying in a similar way!

So as much chance as your proposed 6 runway super-hub at Exeter Airport.

Channex757 wrote:

The only possibility is with DHL. They are a big package hauler, which the A380F would potentially be good at.

What shoots tht in the head is that DHL is only into buying secondhand at the moment, and via their contractors is introducing the A333P2F conversion. The conclusion has to be that it might suit DHL but DHL ain't buying.....nor are the other two big package haulers and new kid on the block Prime Air.

That wingbox and undercarriage at TLS built for the prototype freighter won't be getting used any time soon.

Zero percent chance we'd be interested in a theoretical A380-F

trpmb6 wrote:

I wasn't aware that the search function on the forums was this inadequate.

it is pretty bad lol

Given that the A380 project is probably done...could they make for good freighters once their age starts weighing?

From what I've read in other A.net posts, the A380 can't be converted to a freighter configuration economically. Add to that the cost of adding the necessary infrastructure, and it's highly unlikely the A380 will replace the MD-11. Either more 747-8Fs or more 777Fs will do the job. The A330-243F is also a strong contender.

BreezyIAH wrote:

Given that the A380 project is probably done...could they make for good freighters once their age starts weighing?

Bit of a jump for me. Perhaps will it indeed make sense to have a doubledecker freighter in the future, but can't see it happening for now.

I'm a pilot for a major American cargo airline. Adopting the A380 into the modern cargo infrastructure would be extremely challenging. It would involve repaving existing parking pads and taxiways to allow for increased weight. It would involved the development of double-decker K-Loaders to load and unload palletized cargo and ULDs. It would also create issues because of the wingspan. The 747-800 is already creating headaches for cargo carriers who maxed out their ramp space long ago. Especially in Anchorage.
If the economics of these issues made sense, then it could happen. But it isn't even remotely on the radar at this time.

iirc the floor between decks is load bearing so it can't be messed with without being really expensive to alter

The 767 has become the MD-11 of cargo.

Cheap feed stock, good payload/range, fits existing ramps and gates -- what more could you want?

Yes, M11 carries more, but Amazon et al boxes are mostly air so it all works out for the good.

Not another "maybe the 380 can..." thread.

Just let it die. With only a couple of airlines, no one wants this plane. No one will convert it into a restaurant and it wont be anything more than a future trivia question.

Enough of this albatross.

727200 wrote:

Not another "maybe the 380 can..." thread.

Just let it die. With only a couple of airlines, no one wants this plane. No one will convert it into a restaurant and it wont be anything more than a future trivia question.

Enough of this albatross.

That's so true. No one wants it. They tried making a freighter version but it didn't work for whatever reason regarding engines. The 747-8 is much more economical when it comes to freight hence Boeing is dominating the freight market right now.

Rebersole wrote:

It would involve repaving existing parking pads and taxiways to allow for increased weight.

The A380 has lower pavement loading than 747 or 777.

UAL747422 wrote:

That's so true. No one wants it. They tried making a freighter version but it didn't work for whatever reason regarding engines. The 747-8 is much more economical when it comes to freight hence Boeing is dominating the freight market right now.

Since this is new info please enlighten us what was it with engines that prevented a cargo version? Also source for your claims on 747-8 efficiency?

727200 wrote:

Not another "maybe the 380 can..." thread.

........and there will be another and another and another.
What a yawn but c'est la vie.

727200 wrote:

Not another "maybe the 380 can..." thread.

Just let it die. With only a couple of airlines, no one wants this plane. No one will convert it into a restaurant and it wont be anything more than a future trivia question.

Enough of this albatross.

I'm assuming you're exaggerating on purpose.

But, at least try to be credible with pointing the real situation:
- no, there are not "only a couple of airlines" operating the A380: there are 12 airlines with sizable fleet (I'm excluding Hi Fly). That's not a lot and is enough to show;
- no, there are some airlines that still want the plane: there are around 100 A380's yet to be delivered from 2-3 "credible" customers.

Again, the reality is enough to show the struggle Airbus and the A380 face without having to states "alternatives facts"...

I will say no largely because of its wingspan. The 777F has succeeded the MD11F in that role.

727200 wrote:

Not another "maybe the 380 can..." thread.

Just let it die. With only a couple of airlines, no one wants this plane. No one will convert it into a restaurant and it wont be anything more than a future trivia question.

Enough of this albatross.

Am I right in assuming that you don't like the A380?

Do we need one of these threads every week!!?

Pnce and for all, the A380 is not a cargo aircraft and conversion would be impractical, the upper deck is more or less useless and would require Special loading Equipment. Has been all said before.

The only type of cargo the 380 can carry would be self loading cargo, up to 850 or so

Strato2 wrote:

UAL747422 wrote:

That's so true. No one wants it. They tried making a freighter version but it didn't work for whatever reason regarding engines. The 747-8 is much more economical when it comes to freight hence Boeing is dominating the freight market right now.

Since this is new info please enlighten us what was it with engines that prevented a cargo version? Also source for your claims on 747-8 efficiency?

Well as previously mentioned in this thread was the economics don't work. As mentioned in the article, (link at bottom) the design of the A380 simply can't support cargo. The A380's cargo volume would be about the volume AN-225, and that takes six engines and the A380 only has four. Simply, the A380 doesn't have enough power. Also unlike the 747 the A380 wasn't intended to be a freighter. However, the regular A380 can hold a significant amount of cargo in the belly. Also, if the statistical economics were to work, the cargo market would need to get less dense.

About 747-8 efficiency, we all know in the passenger market that there are planes like the 787 and A350 that are a whole lot more efficient than the 747. But when it comes to cargo, the 747 is remarkably good at its job. They designed it with a nose door so it could adapt to cargo after supersonic jets took over. Even though that never happened the nose door turned out to still be a great idea. The nose door is probably what ultimately saved the 747 back in 2016 if you think about it. Now think of this awesome freighter with the nose door and in 2005 you stretch it make new wings and slap new engines on there and amp up the flight deck controls. You got yourself a seller. The 747-8 is efficient because the nose door allows for the loading of larger cargo which pays more than regular cargo. The 747-8 can also fit more cargo than previous models. You can leave the regular cargo to the 767, which is also very good at its job too.

That was a mouthful. I apologize if some of it doesn't make sense I didn't type it all at once.









https://www.flexport.com/blog/airbus-a3 ... quivalent/

gia777 wrote:

I think Garuda Indonesia and Saudi Arabian Airlines are the best candidate to buy A380-800 because they need to transport tons of hajj.

Yeah, because that turned out so well for Malaysia!

When the program was launched. There was an A380F option being discussed. FedEx and UPS were initially interested, but pulled out. Aircraft was simply deemed too large, plus plenty of second-hand aircraft on the market.

What one has to consider is that, part form the long-haul flights, Cargo aircraft can fly as little as 4-5 hours in a 24-hour period.