zakuivcustom
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:33 pm

questions wrote:
winginit wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Point being, Delta or Northwest were never really notable players in the US to HKG space one way or another.


Wasn’t NW known for dirt cheap, consolidator type fares in Asia... vs a solid brand that could command decent fares?


They were definitely the cheapest option back then. Known also for their bad service :scratchchin:

janders wrote:
winginit wrote:

That's my gut reaction as well, but if we go back to the early 2000's I can't recall even NW serving HKG from the US apart from the NRT-HKG fifth that likely just catered to the local intra-Asian market? Maybe I'm misremembering that. Point being, Delta or Northwest were never really notable players in the US to HKG space one way or another.


DL flew DTW-HKG. Dropped late 2012. Further back NW did MSP-HKG in 1990s.

But yes you are right. NW/DL was never able to make much of market like HKG compared to PA/UA.


There was NW's iteration of SEA-HKG also, again didn't really last. NW also flew HKG-SEL IIRC back when they have that mini-hub at SEL (Current GMP) in late 80s/early 90s. But otherwise, the only consistent route that NW operated for years to HKG was from NRT.

Compare to UA, who have been flying from LAX and SFO (I believe) to HKG for many years, along with ORD-HKG. UA even briefly flew JFK-HKG in early 2001 (as a response to CO's EWR-HKG), but it didn't last long at all (I went back and checked, didn't even last until 9/11). Not to mention the very long running fifth freedom HKG-SIN and later, HKG-SGN.
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:04 am

I think the real reasons behind this retrenchment of service by airlines to "Asia", which by the way also includes Hawaiian killing off their HNL-PEK service, is the fact that the Chinese national airlines (Air China, China Southern and China Eastern) are taking all the full-service airlines to lunch with their prices. Right now, if you do a US-Asia run, and searching based on price, the Chinese airlines pop right to the top. For instance going to Hong Kong from Honolulu, China Eastern's HNL-PVG flight is the first to pop up, with convenient connect to HKG. You want to spend a little time in Shanghai, than the price goes even lower. Trying to compete against that price point, I am sure Delta's service is really out to lunch. So like with AA and their ending of their China service from Chicago, I am pretty sure this move by Delta is reflecting of the times - Chinese Airlines are taking all the main service providers on the Asia-US routes to lunch.
 
jfk777
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:06 am

IF, and its a Big IF, Delta does do Hong Kong again it should from their Powerful hub in Detroit. An A350 would be the most efficient. DTW is the best hub for Asia from most Us cities for Delta, Atlanta is too far south & east for HKG flights. MSP is not as good but could be viable for Delta.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:31 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
The yields stink to HKG and really all of China which is why CX is losing money and also why DL has entered into a JV with KE.

DL does not need to fly to every major Asian city. They have tried HKG from DTW, MSP, and SEA. They all lost money. I think DL will continue to funnel pax into ICN and let KE do the intra Asian flying.

Maybe you could see ATL-HKG someday, but I doubt it.


That is not why CX is losing money, so you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:43 am

The JV with WS is starting to ramp up as well. In two weeks time we’ll know the plans for 787-9 and I wouldn’t be surprised if the first destination is HKG from either YYC, YYZ or YVR.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:16 am

I would be very surprised. The problem for an airline like DL is: HKG is premium traffic-driven. On NYC and LAX-HKG (UA from SFO and NYC), you have these offerings:

AA: 52 J seats on 5-class planes
UA: 50 J seats on 3-class pmCO planes (EWR), 60 J seats on 3-class planes (SFO)
CX: 53 J seats on 4-class planes (JFK and most LAX), 38 J seats on 3-class planes (EWR), 40 J seats on the 3-class LAX frequency
HX: 33 J seats on 3-class planes

DL only has 28 J seats on its 777s and 32 J seats on its 359s---far too few to be competitive on the higher-yielding seats of full-service carriers. The A332s have 34, but they're only 233t frames, and if one is using an A332 from SEA, one needs at least a 238t frame to be without restrictions. I actually don't understand how HX can be competitive on LAX-HKG unless they're picking off passengers from CX, although I wouldn't really classify HX as a full-service carrier. For full-service carriers, one would usually need at least 50 J seats. (CX's EWR frequency is largely a VFR frequency because they couldn't get a fifth daily slot into JFK.)

cumulushumilis wrote:
The JV with WS is starting to ramp up as well. In two weeks time we’ll know the plans for 787-9 and I wouldn’t be surprised if the first destination is HKG from either YYC, YYZ or YVR.


I actually think ICN is more likely, with WS (and AM) likely joining the DL/KE joint venture along with VS from LHR...could they all end up under one roof with KE handling them all?
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:30 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
DL metal has done ANC (early '90s), LAX (mid '90s), NRT (mid '00s), DTW (late '00s) and SEA to HKG.

Not that it changes the meaning of your post, but wasn't PDX-HKG also flown with MD-11s back when PDX was a big Asia hub for DL?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:03 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
DL only has 28 J seats on its 777s and 32 J seats on its 359s---far too few to be competitive on the higher-yielding seats of full-service carriers. The A332s have 34, but they're only 233t frames, and if one is using an A332 from SEA, one needs at least a 238t frame to be without restrictions. I actually don't understand how HX can be competitive on LAX-HKG unless they're picking off passengers from CX, although I wouldn't really classify HX as a full-service carrier. For full-service carriers, one would usually need at least 50 J seats. (CX's EWR frequency is largely a VFR frequency because they couldn't get a fifth daily slot into JFK.)


HX is targeting the budget traveler - i.e. those people looking for the cheapest ticket going to HKG (Mostly VFR). Do they make money? I don't know. The only certain thing is that CX/AA and HX is having a price war on LAX-HKG lately, with CX/AA hoping to compensate for those dirt-cheap back of the bus fare by filling the premium cabin, while HX can relied on their lower cost base (compare to CX/AA) to make money.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:23 am

I personally see them doing JFK-HND over any HKG. The market could certainly benefit from a ST carrier.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:59 am

NRT (now HND) and HKG are like the JFK and LAX of Asia. Or like LHR and CDG in Europe.

Delta doesnt have to serve Every city in Asia, but you need to be in Tokyo and Hong Kong if you are a global airline trying to serve Asia.

They will be back.

As for the person predicting 25 years...25 years in the airline industry is an eternity.

25 years ago TWA was a powerhouse to Europe and US Air had hubs everywhere on the east coast.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:08 am

Chasensfo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
DL metal has done ANC (early '90s), LAX (mid '90s), NRT (mid '00s), DTW (late '00s) and SEA to HKG.

Not that it changes the meaning of your post, but wasn't PDX-HKG also flown with MD-11s back when PDX was a big Asia hub for DL?

:shakehead: :shakehead:

The PDX hub's (1986-2001) nonstops were NRT, NGO, FUK, TPE, and SEL.
The TPE flight continued on to BKK.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tphuang
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:23 am

cumulushumilis wrote:
The JV with WS is starting to ramp up as well. In two weeks time we’ll know the plans for 787-9 and I wouldn’t be surprised if the first destination is HKG from either YYC, YYZ or YVR.

That would be a huge disaster against ac at yyz and yvr + cx at hkg. Yyc to hkg has minimal demand. Yyc does not have anywhere near the demand needed to be international hub.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:06 am

tphuang wrote:
Yyc does not have anywhere near the demand needed to be international hub.

YYC serves 45 international destinations on three continents, nonstop.

More than half (24) of them are beyond USA/transborder.

While it's certainly no YYZ/LAX/JFK/etc... to say that it isn't an international hub, is to not give it its fair due.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tphuang
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:49 am

LAX772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Yyc does not have anywhere near the demand needed to be international hub.

YYC serves 45 international destinations on three continents, nonstop.

More than half (24) of them are beyond USA/transborder.

While it's certainly no YYZ/LAX/JFK/etc... to say that it isn't an international hub, is to not give it its fair due.

I am referring to Asia which it’s demographics doesn’t support.
 
ITB
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:03 am

The cancellation of SEA-HKG and the previous dropping of JFK-NRT point to a worrisome trend for Delta. Evidently, the airline is encountering rather stiff headwinds with some of its US-Asia flights. When JFK-NRT was cut in the Fall of 2016, it seemed odd as it was a direct, business-heavy flight between two of the world's most important cities. Why DL couldn't make the flight work is puzzling, particularly as JFK is a Delta hub. Almost immediately after DL cancelled JFK-NRT, JL jumped on the flight and now operates a daily double with the 787, and with successful results apparently.

And now we have DL canceling SEA-HKG. This is a different situation, of course, than the dropping of JFK-NRT. But it has ominous overtones, as it is one less Asian megacity—and an important one at that—that Delta metal flies into. HKG can now be added to BKK and TPE, two other significant tourism and business markets. Moreover, with these recent developments, how long will DL hold onto NRT-MNL and NRT-SIN?

SEA-HKG, from its outset, was going to be a challenge for Delta. For one, the Seattle area is modest in size compared to the major catchment basins of Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, or even Washington, DC. The O/D needed to make the flight truly feasible probably wasn't there. Because of this DL needed feed. Even though Delta has built up an impressive hub at SEA, apparently it wasn't enough to generate the needed number of passengers traveling daily to HKG. Moreover, if a potential Delta pax from the Midwest intended to travel on DL to HKG, it was still a one-stop or, in many instances, a two-stop flight. STL-MSP-SEA-HKG and CLE-MSP-SEA-HKG, are examples, as is a smaller market routing, such as LEX-DET-SEA-HKG. At this time, CP has eight direct flights between HKG and North America—ORD, SFO, BOS, JFK, EWR, YVR, YYZ, and LAX—and will soon begin flying to two additional markets, IAD and SEA. What do these cities have in common? Each possesses a certain concentration of J-class flyers. How is DL to compete in the high yield J-class market with a single SEA-HKG flight versus CP's 10 direct? It appears the answer was: They can't.

This has to be a worrisome situation for Delta execs. The same dynamics that unraveled SEA-HKG and JFK-NRT are also beginning to play out in other US-Asia city pairs, such as PVG-ORD, PEK-NYC and HKG-LAX, among others. The major Chinese carriers—CA, CZ, MU, and HU—as well as the two principal Japanese airlines, JL and NH, continue to steadily build up their long haul fleets. In total, dozens more new 787s and 350s will soon be headed to the major Chinese and Japanese carriers. And, of course, the markets of North America will be among the first to be carefully scrutinized for potential expansion opportunities. While the situation is not yet dire for the US3 in Asia, the squeeze produced by the more frequent, direct flights of the Asian carriers is beginning to hurt. Case in point, AA's recent cancellation of ORD-PEK. And now, the dropping of SEA-HKG by DL.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:08 am

tphuang wrote:
I am referring to Asia which it’s demographics doesn’t support.

YYC already has scheduled nonstops to two of the biggest destinations in Asia (NRT and PEK) and often scheduled-charter summer service to another (ICN)... thus it's not inconceivable that, with time, it could gain another Asian megacity (HKG).

Again, it'll never be the likes of YVR, nor does it have to be, in order to get what was being suggested.


ITB wrote:
And now we have DL canceling SEA-HKG. This is a different situation, of course, than the dropping of JFK-NRT. But it has ominous overtones, as it is one less Asian megacity—and an important one at that—that Delta metal flies into.

A bit of histrionics in this... notably in that it leaves out the teeeeensy little detail of a newly-launched j/v that completely changes the dynamics of the airline's US-Asia overview.


ITB wrote:
HKG can now be added to BKK and TPE, two other significant tourism and business markets.

Neither of which US carriers care much about, if we're to be honest.

None fly to BKK; the two that were recently there, bailed the instant the government contracts sustaining those routes were pulled.

A grand total of one flies to TPE from only a single airport, neither of the other two have bothered for more than 17yrs.


ITB wrote:
Moreover, with these recent developments, how long will DL hold onto NRT-MNL and NRT-SIN?

ANSWER: as long as the direct operating revenue + net network revenue provided by sending their own metal there, exceeds both (1) the operational cost of doing so + (2) the opportunity cost of not sending such pax on partner airlines then sending their own metal elsewhere.

But then again, that's essentially the answer for any airline on any route.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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deltacto
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:41 am

Chasensfo wrote:
Not that it changes the meaning of your post, but wasn't PDX-HKG also flown with MD-11s back when PDX was a big Asia hub for DL?


LAX772LR wrote:
The PDX hub's (1986-2001) nonstops were NRT, NGO, FUK, TPE, and SEL.
The TPE flight continued on to BKK.


DL first flew LAX-ANC-HKG on L-1011-500's starting in 1991 .... the route went nonstop with MD-11's ... then cancelled altogether in 1995
 
BA
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:13 am

It would be interesting to know how much SkyTeam partner, XiamenAir's service from Shenzhen affected the performance of DL's HKG flight.

XiamenAir's fares to/from Seattle are dirt cheap, you accrue SkyMiles on them, and I believe many nationalities can get a 5-day Mainland China visa on arrival in Shenzhen, which would then allow a traveler to make the quick hop across the border into Hong Kong.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
55flyer
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:55 pm

BA wrote:
It would be interesting to know how much SkyTeam partner, XiamenAir's service from Shenzhen affected the performance of DL's HKG flight.

XiamenAir's fares to/from Seattle are dirt cheap, you accrue SkyMiles on them, and I believe many nationalities can get a 5-day Mainland China visa on arrival in Shenzhen, which would then allow a traveler to make the quick hop across the border into Hong Kong.


No effect. China does virtually no visas on arrival so you are probably referring to TWOV (transit without visa). Shenzhen specifically prohibits surface border crossings into Hong Kong or Macao if entering with TWOV.
Last edited by 55flyer on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
notdownnlocked
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 pm

neomax wrote:
Main problem was feed into SEA was nonexistent. If they return from the likes of DTW where they actually have some feed, combined with the A350, it will be a home run.


1000% agree with this.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:45 pm

55flyer wrote:
BA wrote:
It would be interesting to know how much SkyTeam partner, XiamenAir's service from Shenzhen affected the performance of DL's HKG flight.

XiamenAir's fares to/from Seattle are dirt cheap, you accrue SkyMiles on them, and I believe many nationalities can get a 5-day Mainland China visa on arrival in Shenzhen, which would then allow a traveler to make the quick hop across the border into Hong Kong.


No effect. China does virtually no visas on arrival so you are probably referring to TWOV (transit without visa). Shenzhen specifically prohibits surface border crossings into Hong Kong or Macao if entering with TWOV.


There may be some effect, but not the way you suggest. It would actually be people going to Shenzhen taking the non-stop SZX flight instead of using HKG and then travel north from there. HKer rarely use SZX unless they're heading to secondary mainland cities (more frequencies and also cheaper; plus they're already heading into mainland already, might as well cross the border at Shenzhen instead of the destination airport).

LAX772LR wrote:
Neither of which US carriers care much about, if we're to be honest.

None fly to BKK; the two that were recently there, bailed the instant the government contracts sustaining those routes were pulled.

A grand total of one flies to TPE from only a single airport, neither of the other two have bothered for more than 17yrs.


Agree about TPE - plus if you think airline cannot compete with 1 fortress carrier in HKG (CX), TPE have two of them (CI, BR), with them having pretty much all major US/Canada destinations covered (The only one IMO is BOS, which would not surprised me if BR decided to start that route soon).

BKK is a LONG flight. There's the number (in terms of PDEW) but not the yield to sustain it. In modern days of codeshares/JVs, there's zero need for US carrier to fly either non-stop (which is a long flight), or fifth freedom (which can be done with JV partner's existing capacity).

LAX772LR wrote:
YYC already has scheduled nonstops to two of the biggest destinations in Asia (NRT and PEK) and often scheduled-charter summer service to another (ICN)... thus it's not inconceivable that, with time, it could gain another Asian megacity (HKG).

Again, it'll never be the likes of YVR, nor does it have to be, in order to get what was being suggested.


WS definitely have bigger fish to fry, though. HKG is also not exactly great for fleet utilization (It would required 1.5 planes) - something that's very important for a small widebody subfleet.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:26 pm

Probably not. DL has changed its business model from the NW days. It’s been slowly removing itself from Asia.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:27 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
YYC already has scheduled nonstops to two of the biggest destinations in Asia (NRT and PEK) and often scheduled-charter summer service to another (ICN)... thus it's not inconceivable that, with time, it could gain another Asian megacity (HKG).

Again, it'll never be the likes of YVR, nor does it have to be, in order to get what was being suggested.

WS definitely have bigger fish to fry, though. HKG is also not exactly great for fleet utilization (It would required 1.5 planes) - something that's very important for a small widebody subfleet.

Wasn't even picturing them. If anyone's going to do the likes of HKG-YYC in the remotely foreseeable future, it'll most probably be CX/HX on an A350, and probably less than daily.

Doubtful any time soon though, as they too have bigger fish to fry. But that said, not many more markets in N.Am that can realistically sustain a nonstop to HKG.

Maybe the resumption of routes like LAS/DTW, or as longshots, introducing YUL/SAN/ATL/DEN/IAH or resuming MSP. CX occasionally chatters about the likes of MIA, but I'll believe that about a day after I see it.

Could always joke about AUS-HKG..... seeing as people on this forum are smitten by the idea that a nonhub which hasn't yet even demonstrated the ability to attract/sustain 2 full-service European nonstops year round, should for some reason suddenly have international services to everywhere. So there's that, as an ultra-longshot. ;)

But yeah, not really sure where else.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BA
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:28 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
neomax wrote:
Main problem was feed into SEA was nonexistent. If they return from the likes of DTW where they actually have some feed, combined with the A350, it will be a home run.


1000% agree with this.


What do you mean non-existent? You do realize that SEA is a DL hub now, which means it has feed? It certainly doesn't have as much feed as DTW, MSP, and ATL, but that's very different from "non-existent."

Perhaps you meant less feed than their other hubs?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:43 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Could always joke about AUS-HKG..... seeing as people on this forum are smitten by the idea that a nonhub which hasn't yet even demonstrated the ability to attract/sustain 2 full-service European nonstops year round, should for some reason suddenly have international services to everywhere. So there's that, as an ultra-longshot.


Come on, we all know DL is building AUS into a giant hub with flights to all corners of the globe. :white: (On a more serious note, not even IAH get a flight to HKG yet, but I'm certain that there are some a.nutters on here that think AUS is such a large market and should jump the line).

LAX772LR wrote:
Wasn't even picturing them. If anyone's going to do the likes of HKG-YYC in the remotely foreseeable future, it'll most probably be CX/HX on an A350, and probably less than daily.


I was simply referring to the original post about WS using their 789 to fly to HKG (Which, quite frankly, they have way bigger fish to fry). Personally I'll put YUL ahead of YYC anyway when it comes to Canada.

As for DL - well, there's always HNL. But again, it's a route that would have been being operated by now by somebody if it's really that viable. For other airline (i.e. CX) there's PHL as well, although the leakage (mainly to NYC) itself makes it hard to sustain.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:59 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
For other airline (i.e. CX) there's PHL as well, although the leakage (mainly to NYC) itself makes it hard to sustain.

PHL just doesn't seem to have the business case to east Asia that so many A.netters are desperate to believe.

That's not to say that it'll never have a nonstop, it probably will someday.... but that really appears to be the furthest thing from a priority, for any airline.

The route would've been hub-hub, with ample cnnx to anywhere in the east and south, for both Star previously and now OneWorld.
The very first 787 operators (the Japanese) could've jumped on it at any time. AA could do it tomorrow, if they wanted.

The fact that none of them have, nor appear poised to any time soon, just shows that the market doesn't have compelling demand (versus other options) for the recent past and foreseeable future.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
smartplane
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:37 pm

RWA380 wrote:
United Airline wrote:
Delta Airlines will soon discontinue SEA-HKG-SEA. Pretty sad as I think DL is a very good airline with great products, food, drinks, service etc.

Will they ever fly to HKG again? Maybe from ATL or JFK or LAX?


In my opinion, the fat lady has sung on Hong Kong for DL. If they can not make a 332 work on this route, which:

A: is the smallest plane they have that can do the route non-stop
B: With one stop connections via SEA to the big cities across the country & to a greater extent, the west coast.

There is something wrong when DL is not able to attract the larger business contracts because of the one daily to > daily flight via SEA, which is a detour from the East Coast where you can get non-stop to HKG from many of America's largest cities on CX with connections on AA to many more US markets.

I think DL should focus on Japan & of course Korea for getting passengers past those points, send them on KE.

It's not that the US3 cannot make international routes pay. It's that they cannot make international routes as profitable as domestic.

Much simpler to share with an international operator, at a fraction of the risk, locking in the partner's US domestic travel at the same time.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:17 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
DL metal has done ANC (early '90s), LAX (mid '90s), NRT (mid '00s), DTW (late '00s) and SEA to HKG.

Not that it changes the meaning of your post, but wasn't PDX-HKG also flown with MD-11s back when PDX was a big Asia hub for DL?

:shakehead: :shakehead:

The PDX hub's (1986-2001) nonstops were NRT, NGO, FUK, TPE, and SEL.
The TPE flight continued on to BKK.

Thanks, I've seen mixed answers on that.

NGO but no HKG, with HKG already being a station? PDX was an interesting place in the mid-late 90s.
 
notconcerned
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:50 am

ITB wrote:
Almost immediately after DL cancelled JFK-NRT, JL jumped on the flight and now operates a daily double with the 787, and with successful results apparently.


That's not entirely correct. JL always had double daily on NRT-JFK, one of them used to do NRT-JFK-GRU. Then JL ended NRT-GRU and reduced capacity to a 77W and 788 on NRT. JL then moved one of the flights from NRT-JFK to HND-JFK after getting daytime slots. Now JL flies double daily 77W NRT-JFK and HND-JFK.

ITB wrote:
At this time, CP has eight direct flights between HKG and North America—ORD, SFO, BOS, JFK, EWR, YVR, YYZ, and LAX—and will soon begin flying to two additional markets, IAD and SEA. What do these cities have in common? Each possesses a certain concentration of J-class flyers. How is DL to compete in the high yield J-class market with a single SEA-HKG flight versus CP's 10 direct? It appears the answer was: They can't.


Not sure how that is a disadvantage and if CX is really a direct competitor (they didn't even fly SEA-HKG) since DL is selling US-SEA connections to HKG. KE flies from ICN to 10 US destinations and UA/AA are still able to compete with 1 daily flight each.
 
toltommy
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:33 am

United Airline wrote:
I don't think they should cut HKG completely. They did HKG-NRT-HKG for many years though. Why not try HKG-ICN-HKG?


That’s what they will do. But the ICN-HKG leg has to be on KE metal. DL likely doesn’t have the traffic rights to fly it on their own.
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UPlog
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:49 pm

Delta might be gone from HKG airport, but they still live on a pair of painted up street cars which I spotted earlier this week in Wan Chai

Must be a long term advertising agreement before cars get repainted. :duck:
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 375
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:42 pm

jumbojet wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
United Airline wrote:
Delta Airlines will soon discontinue SEA-HKG-SEA. Pretty sad as I think DL is a very good airline with great products, food, drinks, service etc.

Will they ever fly to HKG again? Maybe from ATL or JFK or LAX?


In my opinion, the fat lady has sung on Hong Kong for DL. If they can not make a 332 work on this route, which:

A: is the smallest plane they have that can do the route non-stop
B: With one stop connections via SEA to the big cities across the country & to a greater extent, the west coast.

There is something wrong when DL is not able to attract the larger business contracts because of the one daily to > daily flight via SEA, which is a detour from the East Coast where you can get non-stop to HKG from many of America's largest cities on CX with connections on AA to many more US markets.

I think DL should focus on Japan & of course Korea for getting passengers past those points, send them on KE.


The problem with DL to HKG is akin to the problems AA has with China. There is basically no feed on the other end plus, HKG yields for all airlines is in the trash. We all know that DL has very little patience for underperforming financial routes. Its just one of those things. If DL had ever taken those 788's, no doubt that plane would have worked. DL will return to HKG when it makes financial sense and they have the right airplane. Maybe the MOM will make it happen.


"HKG yields for all airlines is in the trash" You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!
BA JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL QQ UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR PG MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN PC LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

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winginit
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:47 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
"HKG yields for all airlines is in the trash" You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!


Then by all means, please provide data that argues HKG yields aren't in the trash.

Nonstop round-trip fares are currently hovering between $400 and $800 even through the peak season. Those are trash yields compared to where those fares were three to five years ago.
 
UA857
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:54 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Makes me wonder if JFK-HKG would work, but who knows, DL couldnt even pull off JFK-NRT.

JFK-HKG may be unprofitable for DL. JFK-Asia Flights are operated by the country's national carriers. The reason why UA can do NYC-HKG is because UA operates it out of EWR.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 pm

UA857 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Makes me wonder if JFK-HKG would work, but who knows, DL couldnt even pull off JFK-NRT.

JFK-HKG may be unprofitable for DL. JFK-Asia Flights are operated by the country's national carriers. The reason why UA can do NYC-HKG is because UA operates it out of EWR.


Why would that make any difference? Why can UA make EWR-HKG work any more than someone could make JFK-HKG work?
 
StudiodeKadent
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:43 am

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:56 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Why would that make any difference? Why can UA make EWR-HKG work any more than someone could make JFK-HKG work?


EWR is a very large United fortress hub with lots and lots of feed for the flight.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:13 am

When did DL pull out of CAN? Didn't they use to run NRT to CAN?
 
panamair
Posts: 4010
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:30 am

For all those who are talking about how well HKG is working for UA, something that went seemingly unnoticed when UA reported Q4 and 2018 full year results was the $206m impairment charge that UA took against their HKG routes

From their Q4 2018 results/financial statements:

"....The company conducted its annual impairment review of intangible assets in the fourth quarter of 2018, which consisted of a comparison of the book value of specific assets to the fair value of those assets calculated using the discounted cash flow method. Due to increased costs without sufficient corresponding increases in revenue in the Hong Kong market, the company determined that the value of its Hong Kong routes had been impaired. Accordingly, in the fourth quarter of 2018, the company recorded a special non-cash impairment charge of $206 million ($160 million net of taxes) associated with its Hong Kong routes...."

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3421262-u ... ong-routes
 
N649DL
Posts: 289
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:52 am

If I had to guess, maybe DL would try (maybe again, can't remember) HKG-NRT or try HKG-HNL.

"EWR is a very large United fortress hub with lots and lots of feed for the flight."

I'm willing to bet at certain times of the year that EWR-HKG and even EWR-NRT do poorly but are kept around for network purposes. It's just not the same for feed with DL at JFK, not with DTW in the mix.
 
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spinkid
Posts: 1772
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 am

The NRT drawdawn will continue. HKG isn't worth it. Years ago when booking to HKG, BKK, SIN, etc you had very few connecting options. Now there are SO many Chinese carriers and assorted Low Cost pieces of the connection to compete against.
 
yeginleduc
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:12 pm

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:10 am

If Hong Kong Airlines continues its downward spiral then it might help inspire DL to start service again but now that CX is launching SEA, I'm not sure DL would survive with CX on the same route. I always thought DL should just get into the dogfight that is LAX-HKG and see if they can make that work and maybe CX would have to pull back a bit and go 2x daily. But then awhile ago AA started the route so DL entering would be unlikely.

DL should be in HKG with their own metal and non-stop to the US if they consider themselves to be a premier US airline but they really dont have a good US city to enter from.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 597
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:37 am

Would it make any sense for Delta to fly LAX-HKG-SIN if they were to dump NRT-SIN en route to consolidating all TYO traffic at HND? The theory being that you ball both destinations onto a single loss making flight?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:21 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Would it make any sense for Delta to fly LAX-HKG-SIN if they were to dump NRT-SIN en route to consolidating all TYO traffic at HND? The theory being that you ball both destinations onto a single loss making flight?


NRT-SIN probably still works to some degree as it gets feed at NRT from 5 U.S. cities.

A HKG-SIN leg would only have any continuing LAX passengers, plus whatever super cheap HKG-SIN tickets DL could sell.

Also a XXX-LAX-HKG-SIN routing is hardly optimal for bulk of potential DL customers, esp those in cities that can access a nonstop to big hub like ICN via DL/KE JV already.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
winginit
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:58 am

yeginleduc wrote:
DL should be in HKG with their own metal and non-stop to the US if they consider themselves to be a premier US airline


This is such a tired argument. DL is among the largest three airlines in the world, is the most profitable airline in the world by gross profits generated, and operates a fortress hub in the busiest airport in the world.

The company hardly needs to operate a loss-making route to Hong Kong as some sort of ego quest to the detriment of shareholders just to feel like a 'premier US airline'.
 
klm617
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:02 pm

Perhaps Delta could do DTW-NGO-HKG
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n2dru
Posts: 71
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:51 pm

klm617 wrote:
Perhaps Delta could do DTW-NGO-HKG


Probably not since DTW-NGO exist solely due to the auto industry.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:55 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
DL metal has done ANC (early '90s), LAX (mid '90s), NRT (mid '00s), DTW (late '00s) and SEA to HKG.

Not that it changes the meaning of your post, but wasn't PDX-HKG also flown with MD-11s back when PDX was a big Asia hub for DL?


Delta never flew PDX HKG in any airplane. The longest sector out of PDX was, PDX TPE.
 
N983AN
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:31 pm

winginit wrote:
yeginleduc wrote:
DL should be in HKG with their own metal and non-stop to the US if they consider themselves to be a premier US airline


This is such a tired argument. DL is among the largest three airlines in the world, is the most profitable airline in the world by gross profits generated, and operates a fortress hub in the busiest airport in the world.

The company hardly needs to operate a loss-making route to Hong Kong as some sort of ego quest to the detriment of shareholders just to feel like a 'premier US airline'.


Many say the same about AA vis-à-vis TLV

Amazing AA can’t make it work, really they should have moved the PHL flight to MIA on more suitable for the mission 777 before LY returned in 2017.
 
winginit
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:24 pm

N983AN wrote:
winginit wrote:
yeginleduc wrote:
DL should be in HKG with their own metal and non-stop to the US if they consider themselves to be a premier US airline


This is such a tired argument. DL is among the largest three airlines in the world, is the most profitable airline in the world by gross profits generated, and operates a fortress hub in the busiest airport in the world.

The company hardly needs to operate a loss-making route to Hong Kong as some sort of ego quest to the detriment of shareholders just to feel like a 'premier US airline'.


Many say the same about AA vis-à-vis TLV

Amazing AA can’t make it work, really they should have moved the PHL flight to MIA on more suitable for the mission 777 before LY returned in 2017.


... do they?

Hong Kong is a global financial center with 7.5 million people and a GDP of $360 billion with the 14th highest GDP per capita in the world. The airport is the 8th busiest in the world with 73 million annual pax last year.

Tel Aviv is... not that, with a metro population of 3.8 million and a GDP of $153 billion. The airport handled 23 million passengers last year.

Anyway this thread is about DL and HKG - not AA and TLV.
 
gokmengs
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Will DL return to HKG again?

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:51 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Makes me wonder if JFK-HKG would work, but who knows, DL couldnt even pull off JFK-NRT.

I am thinking DL will launch JFK-HND soon after the DOT process is complete.
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