In a recent interview with Business Insider LH's CEO was asked why LH chose the 748-i when many of the world other airlines went with the smaller 77W.

His answer and I quote " According to Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr, the decision operate the 747 instead of smaller aircraft has to do with the amount of room the plane affords its premium cabin.
"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has."
"That's why we operate the 747-8 on routes where others operate the (Boeing) 777," Spohr added."

https://www.businessinsider.com/planes- ... jet-2018-8

His statement took me by surprise and I started thinking does LH really sell more premium seats than any other airline in the world? Or did he perhaps misspeak and maybe mean't to say no airline in the world has more premium seats available than LH?

LH does have a good premium product. German efficiency.

LH wouldn’t install that many first/business class if they weren’t sold or profitable. If you look at their aircraft layouts, it’s mostly premium heavy with a large amount of seats, especially the Boeing 747-8I. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the statement was true.

So then why (1) not take all of them that you ordered and (2) order its de facto replacement when you probably could've ordered more 748i for a song during Boeing's search to keep the line open?

While I've no idea if his claims for amount of premium seats sold is accurate, I wouldn't be shocked if this was more along the lines of padding a decision to order something so clearly rejected by the rest of the market.

That said, someone with nothing better to do should do a comparison between the BA and LH fleets, defining "premium" as F+J, but also keeping W in mind should a relative tie-breaker be needed.

I'd be somewhat surprised if the latter has more premium seats simply due to BA's (terrible) configuration, but best to see the data rather than assume.

LAX772LR wrote:

So then why (1) not take all of them that you ordered and (2) order its de facto replacement when you probably could've ordered more 748i for a song during Boeing's search to keep the line open?

Well they did take 19 of the 20 and the 20th had sufficient differentiation from the other 19 it would have required it's own custom maintenance schedule that effectively made it an orphan frame.

And even back in 2000, LH wanted a larger frame than the 777-300ER and the 747-400. They pushed Boeing to continue with the 747X Stretch even when nobody else looked ready to join them. The 747-8 offered much better per trip and per seat fuel burn than the 747X Stretch and had an original EIS within five years of the former (2005 for the 74X and 2009 for the 748) so I don't find it surprising that they agreed to launch it.

As for moving to the 777-9, while there was that (IMO, baseless) rumor that LH would retire the 747-8 fleet as the 777-9 arrives, LH still has 17 A340-600 and 13 747-400 models in service and the 20 777-9 they have on order would make a solid start on replacing them. And LH's Board did approve management ordering up to a total of 34 so LH could add more in short order if they feel the need.

LAX772LR wrote:

So then why (1) not take all of them that you ordered and (2) order its de facto replacement when you probably could've ordered more 748i for a song during Boeing's search to keep the line open?

While I've no idea if his claims for amount of premium seats sold is accurate, I wouldn't be shocked if this was more along the lines of padding a decision to order something so clearly rejected by the rest of the market.

The 777-9 did not exist when LH ordered the 748i, and it makes no sense to retire it in advance. In addition, the 779 is not replacing the 748i, it's replacing the 744. Unless LH wants to keep the 744 longer than the 748i, I don't see how they intend to use the 779 to replace the 748. Unless they plan to replace 19 airframes with 7....

jayunited wrote:

"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has."
"That's why we operate the 747-8 on routes where others operate the (Boeing) 777

The A380 would have even more space than the 748-i would it not? Or was the comparison between the Boeings. Wish more airlines had ordered the 748-i.

DDR wrote:

LH does have a good premium product. German efficiency.

Maybe in First. After 10hrs in J on new 350 I was not happy. No privacy, not that much space, inconvenience of walking over someone sleeping to get out of my seat etc.
LH does the same thing as BA - they do their best to squeeze as many people as possible into J without becoming too uncompetitive with a hard product.
I remember few years ago LH CEO gave an interview where he was really angry that they are forced to use make lie-flat seats on long haul - what results in lower number of J seats.
And let's not even look at the legroom in short haul J on LH.

So maybe they do sell most premium seats - but those seats are less premium than some other carriers.

This statement may be true but LH has the worst hard product within the LH Group ! I love flying on OS and LX , but would prefer SK and LO even UA over the hard and soft product of LH anytime. Being Star Gold and regularly flying transatlantic in C , I try to avoid LH C class , whenever I can.

I honestly don’t find LH business class much better than other good carriers

I think the key to lh’s Success is the German economy. Provides lots of tailwind

Given the respective fleet sizes, I find it hard to believe that LH would sell more premium than say, EK.. Simply due to the amount of large widebodies the latter has.

Airlines0613 wrote:

LH wouldn’t install that many first/business class if they weren’t sold or profitable. If you look at their aircraft layouts, it’s mostly premium heavy with a large amount of seats, especially the Boeing 747-8I. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the statement was true.

Yup, LH has the right size plane for every market that it serves. Wouldn't be possible without LH Technik being what it is.

gregpodpl wrote:

DDR wrote:

LH does have a good premium product. German efficiency.

Maybe in First. After 10hrs in J on new 350 I was not happy. No privacy, not that much space, inconvenience of walking over someone sleeping to get out of my seat etc.
LH does the same thing as BA - they do their best to squeeze as many people as possible into J without becoming too uncompetitive with a hard product.
I remember few years ago LH CEO gave an interview where he was really angry that they are forced to use make lie-flat seats on long haul - what results in lower number of J seats.
And let's not even look at the legroom in short haul J on LH.

So maybe they do sell most premium seats - but those seats are less premium than some other carriers.

Definitely in First, was on that just two weeks ago. The luxury is really more in the service than in the hard product. Then again I was also happy flying the A350 from DEN to MUC about a month ago. As for business class layout, they are rolling out the new business class soon, more like OS and LX. A bit late to the party, but it's a bigger fleet than the latter.

Short haul J is pretty much the same on all European narrow bodies, with the notable exception of some BA A321s, TK, SU, and of course intra-European wide body flights. It's interesting to see that most European carriers have not been able to make a US domestic first style hard product stick. Short haul J is the proverbial black sheep in the EU3 family. Amazingly bad. If I ran LH, I would push back harder against the WWs and FRs of my home market by improving short and mid haul J within LH Group. I don't get that one can fly FRA-IKA on a 744 but VIE-IKA goes down to economy seats. Ditto with ZRH-TLV 330 flat beds but FRA-TLV is just economy seating. Similar length and target audience, don't get why one has to fly to another city in economy just to catch a flat bed.

Stitch wrote:

the 20th had sufficient differentiation

What differences did they object to?

speedbird52 wrote:

Unless they plan to replace 19 airframes with 7....

Sure, because airlines totally lack the ability to place followup orders....

Flightsimboy wrote:

Wish more airlines had ordered the 748-i.

Why? What's the point of ordering something obsolete practically the moment it entered service?

LAX772LR wrote:

I'd be somewhat surprised if the latter has more premium seats simply due to BA's (terrible) configuration, but best to see the data rather than assume.

The LH guy said that "they sell more" not that they "have more"

WIederling wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

I'd be somewhat surprised if the latter has more premium seats simply due to BA's (terrible) configuration, but best to see the data rather than assume.

The LH guy said that "they sell more" not that they "have more"

I'm aware, though my focus was more on his "100 seats" claim, which doesn't appear to make any sense at all, even if they were looking at it from a potential config standpoint.

LAX772LR wrote:

Stitch wrote:

the 20th had sufficient differentiation

What differences did they object to?

"zerbastelt."
This rather early reworked prototype frame had so many afterthought changes
that LH argued the frame to be undesirable ( at any price? ).
I would not be surprised if this is just the up front reasoning.

LAX772LR wrote:

WIederling wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

I'd be somewhat surprised if the latter has more premium seats simply due to BA's (terrible) configuration, but best to see the data rather than assume.

The LH guy said that "they sell more" not that they "have more"

I'm aware, though my focus was more on his "100 seats" claim, which doesn't appear to make any sense at all, even if they were looking at it from a potential config standpoint.

Unspecific aircraft type "XL". this is kind of a "if wishes where ..." statement.
748i, A380 better fit that XL setup than a(ny) 777 ?
note that in LH layout 748i and a380 are about matched on premium seats.

Could be true germans fly a lot of business. If you think about it Condor has business class whereas Thomas cook doesn't have business class (same company basically and a similar market). I found it surprising how many people fly business on privat trips from germany. Then there are numerous big companies where employees are allowed to fly business. Having a wealthy O&D market helps.

That's an quite interesting statement, especially when you remember, that LH doesn't even offer First class on most aircraft anymore. Sometimes they even block the whole first class, when they switch planes from a non-F-plane to one which has it. Happened to me a few months ago: DEL-MUC was supposed to be an A350 without F-class, one day before the flight it was switched to A340-600, which does have a first. In the end, the first class was empty. Sometimes, they do allow C-class-pax there, but only with C-service. Besides that, currently only the 747-8, the A340-600 and the A380 offer a first class at all.

There is also something else, LH's premium products, especially premium economy and business tend to be cheaper than most out there especially when compared to AF. That could also be a factor.

Blerg wrote:

There is also something else, LH's premium products, especially premium economy and business tend to be cheaper than most out there especially when compared to AF. That could also be a factor.

I did a check for my usual route - WAW - LAX - few random dates. LO is usually more expensive - direct connection. For October dates LX (which I prefer) and LH and AF got similar pricing, in September AF is 5-7% more expensive. Is it different on other markets ?

Well of course. Hence the “premium livery!” It all makes sense now.

Stitch wrote:

the 20th had sufficient differentiation

LAX772LR wrote:

What differences did they object to?

I don't think there was anything ever publicly made, but we do know Boeing asked LH to pull it back and use it to test changes they were implementing into the line models for things like the tail-tank activation. The belief is that it eventually fell enough out of compliance that LH decided not to take it and/or Boeing decided it was not worth the cost to perform the necessary Change Incorporation to bring it into compliance.

jayunited wrote:

In a recent interview with Business Insider LH's CEO was asked why LH chose the 748-i when many of the world other airlines went with the smaller 77W.

His answer and I quote " According to Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr, the decision operate the 747 instead of smaller aircraft has to do with the amount of room the plane affords its premium cabin.
"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has."
"That's why we operate the 747-8 on routes where others operate the (Boeing) 777," Spohr added."

https://www.businessinsider.com/planes- ... jet-2018-8

His statement took me by surprise and I started thinking does LH really sell more premium seats than any other airline in the world? Or did he perhaps misspeak and maybe mean't to say no airline in the world has more premium seats available than LH?

If LH need 100 first and business seats why have their 748's got a total of 88, and their A380's 86 ?

Meanwhile BA really does have more than 100 first and business seats in some aircraft.

As the BA longhaul fleet is rather larger than the LH fleet I find the claim difficult to swallow especially as BA are notoriously stingy with upgrades, the only usual circumstances in which they move people forward is either staff travel or if they wish to free up a seat in a lower cabin.

Of course the LH CEO may be including the wider LH group, or including short haul business class which as we know , here in Europe is a fairly meagre offering.

Bongodog1964 wrote:

jayunited wrote:

In a recent interview with Business Insider LH's CEO was asked why LH chose the 748-i when many of the world other airlines went with the smaller 77W.

His answer and I quote " According to Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr, the decision operate the 747 instead of smaller aircraft has to do with the amount of room the plane affords its premium cabin.
"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has."
"That's why we operate the 747-8 on routes where others operate the (Boeing) 777," Spohr added."

https://www.businessinsider.com/planes- ... jet-2018-8

His statement took me by surprise and I started thinking does LH really sell more premium seats than any other airline in the world? Or did he perhaps misspeak and maybe mean't to say no airline in the world has more premium seats available than LH?

As the BA longhaul fleet is rather larger than the LH fleet I find the claim difficult to swallow especially as BA are notoriously stingy with upgrades, the only usual circumstances in which they move people forward is either staff travel or if they wish to free up a seat in a lower cabin.

It's actually a lot easier to score a free upgrade on BA than LH. Just go on Flyertalk in LH's and BA's respective free upgrade threads and you will see that BA upgrades are A LOT more frequent than in the entirety of the LH group.

jayunited wrote:

In a recent interview with Business Insider LH's CEO was asked why LH chose the 748-i when many of the world other airlines went with the smaller 77W.

His answer and I quote " According to Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr, the decision operate the 747 instead of smaller aircraft has to do with the amount of room the plane affords its premium cabin.
"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has."
"That's why we operate the 747-8 on routes where others operate the (Boeing) 777," Spohr added."

https://www.businessinsider.com/planes- ... jet-2018-8

His statement took me by surprise and I started thinking does LH really sell more premium seats than any other airline in the world? Or did he perhaps misspeak and maybe mean't to say no airline in the world has more premium seats available than LH?

I think BA is one of the most premium heavy. They have more premium seats on their 744 than LH on the 748. I reckon BA overall has more premium. 14 F on most planes too compared to 8 F at LH. I think BA would beat out LH on premium seats.

jayunited wrote:

"No airline in the world sells as many premium seats as Lufthansa," Spohr told us in a recent interview. "When we talk about an XL aircraft, we need 100 first and business class seats which nobody else has.

I can probably agree with that. As a UA FF living in BOS I can't tell you when was the last time I flew with LH. It was a very long time ago. And that's because LH is often the most expensive TATL airline out of BOS. It's my believe that LH has long ago stopped chasing the low fare passenger and instead focused its business on the premium end of the market. Now keep in my that premium doesn't always mean First and Business class only.

It's actually a lot easier to score a free upgrade on BA than LH. Just go on Flyertalk in LH's and BA's respective free upgrade threads and you will see that BA upgrades are A LOT more frequent than in the entirety of the LH group.

Upgrade - yes. Award - no. I still have like 350k Avios which I can't really use. But on LH and LX I can usually find what I need.

speedbird52 wrote:

Unless they plan to replace 19 airframes with 7....

Sure, because airlines totally lack the ability to place followup orders....

Your claim is that LH ordered the 779 to replace the 748i, not that they CAN replace the 748 with the 779

gregpodpl wrote:

DDR wrote:

LH does have a good premium product. German efficiency.

Maybe in First. After 10hrs in J on new 350 I was not happy. No privacy, not that much space, inconvenience of walking over someone sleeping to get out of my seat etc.
LH does the same thing as BA - they do their best to squeeze as many people as possible into J without becoming too uncompetitive with a hard product.
I remember few years ago LH CEO gave an interview where he was really angry that they are forced to use make lie-flat seats on long haul - what results in lower number of J seats.
And let's not even look at the legroom in short haul J on LH.

So maybe they do sell most premium seats - but those seats are less premium than some other carriers.

As much as I agree with you: Please name one European airline with a better J that has at least 70% of DLHs route network

It makes sense. Similar reason BA still operates so many 744s, it fits their model. The 77W is not sized right for their high premium configs and the A380 is too big of a Y class increase. Also clear reason why Boeing Airbus don’t make planes the exact same size.

The 747-8i can be operated at airports that the A380 can't in terms of runways, taxiways, gate access, hangers. That they have a premium heavy demand that encourages it may be as they have service that works good for German based customers as well as connecting customers that airlines based elsewhere don't or can't offer direct service due to politics, security conflicts, limited demand or not profitable.

george77300 wrote:

I think BA is one of the most premium heavy. They have more premium seats on their 744 than LH on the 748.

Not that difficult, when BA places a 2-4-2 business class instead of the 2-2-2 at LH.

ltbewr wrote:

The 747-8i can be operated at airports that the A380 can't in terms of runways, taxiways, gate access, hangers.

The only one of those that's actually true is the taxiway part.... and even then, only for turn-offs.

LAX772LR wrote:

Why? What's the point of ordering something obsolete practically the moment it entered service?

You sure you are not referring to the A380? Thanks to Emirates it survived. The A380 would have been one major failure had it to rely on just the other handful of customers it has. 13 other airlines to be precise as I am trying to build my 1:200 collection for each carrier that has them.

The 748-i may not have done that well but it was 747 that changed aviation. LH must be doing something right to have both the A380 and the 748-i.

Flightsimboy wrote:

You sure you are not referring to the A380?

Well, no... seeing as the 748i being rejected by the market neither absolves nor validates the A380 in any way.

Flightsimboy wrote:

The 748-i may not have done that well but it was 747 that changed aviation.

"Great, what have you done for me lately?"

~signed,
Aviation Market.

LAX772LR wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

You sure you are not referring to the A380?

Well, no... seeing as the 748i being rejected by the market neither absolves nor validates the A380 in any way..

It does. The A380 was supposed to be the new generation aircraft to take over the 747-400. The new so called King of the skies. Airbus definitely had big dreams for it. Don't get me wrong I flew the A380 and loved it.

LAX772LR wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

The 748-i may not have done that well but it was 747 that changed aviation.

"Great, what have you done for me lately?"

~signed,
Aviation Market.

40+ years of Boeing 747s flying the skies with scores of airlines flying it's different versions. It is just the timing of smaller more efficient aircraft that killed both the 748-is and A380s. At least LH, KE & CA found some place for the 747-8i in their fleet. Not to mention the 748 freighters took off while the A380 cargo versions never even got off the ground.

[quote="LAX772LR"]That said, someone with nothing better to do should do a comparison between the BA and LH fleets, defining "premium" as F+J, but also keeping W in mind should a relative tie-breaker be needed.

why don't you jump on this and report back to all of us? Thanks in advance!

d8s wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, someone with nothing better to do should do a comparison between the BA and LH fleets, defining "premium" as F+J, but also keeping W in mind should a relative tie-breaker be needed.

why don't you jump on this and report back to all of us? Thanks in advance!

It really isn't hard. I did it in a few seconds

Flightsimboy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

You sure you are not referring to the A380?

Well, no... seeing as the 748i being rejected by the market neither absolves nor validates the A380 in any way..

It does.

In your imagination, perhaps... but here in reality, the market had already more or less made its statement on the A380 before the first metal on the 748i was even cut.

The fate of the two have nothing to do with each other.

d8s wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, someone with nothing better to do should do a comparison between the BA and LH fleets, defining "premium" as F+J, but also keeping W in mind should a relative tie-breaker be needed.

why don't you jump on this and report back to all of us?

Obvious answer: because I don't actually care enough to do it.... sorta like you clearly not caring enough to learn how to effectively use the quote function.

Out of IAH, that A380 almost leaves full all the time in business and even in first. There been time that Business was oversold vs economy.

speedbird52 wrote:

As much as I agree with you: Please name one European airline with a better J that has at least 70% of DLHs route network

BA? At least you have privacy at some of the seats. And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...

LAX772LR wrote:

Flightsimboy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

Well, no... seeing as the 748i being rejected by the market neither absolves nor validates the A380 in any way..

It does.

In your imagination, perhaps... but here in reality, the market had already more or less made its statement on the A380 before the first metal on the 748i was even cut.

The fate of the two have nothing to do with each other.

Two frames in direct competition, the 747-8i build to compete with the A380. It is completely nonsense to declare their fate has nothing to do with each other. The point is, even at the low sales numbers of the A380, the 787-8i could not compete.

conaly wrote:

george77300 wrote:

I think BA is one of the most premium heavy. They have more premium seats on their 744 than LH on the 748.

Not that difficult, when BA places a 2-4-2 business class instead of the 2-2-2 at LH.

This is not entirely fair. BA is a 2-3-2 on some aircraft and LH is also 2-3-2 on some. Just because they have 2-2-2 on the narrower A330/340 doesn't make them better. Also on a like for like comparison on the B744, LH has more business seats both on the upper deck and between doors 1 and 2 than BA does with their business seats.

gregpodpl wrote:

speedbird52 wrote:

As much as I agree with you: Please name one European airline with a better J that has at least 70% of DLHs route network

BA? At least you have privacy at some of the seats. And no risk of playing footsies with german businessman...

Agreed. The BA window seats are very private. You have space for your feet and a reasonable number of the bulkhead window seats actually have direct aisle access. LH has no privacy, very small footrests etc..

I'd take a BA business over LH business anytime. To answer your first point they are even more premium heavy than LH. For example LH most premium 744 has 272 economy seats and BAs has 145 economy only.

george77300 wrote:

conaly wrote:

george77300 wrote:

I think BA is one of the most premium heavy. They have more premium seats on their 744 than LH on the 748.

Not that difficult, when BA places a 2-4-2 business class instead of the 2-2-2 at LH.

This is not entirely fair. BA is a 2-3-2 on some aircraft and LH is also 2-3-2 on some. Just because they have 2-2-2 on the narrower A330/340 doesn't make them better. Also on a like for like comparison on the B744, LH has more business seats both on the upper deck and between doors 1 and 2 than BA does with their business seats.

Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?

I don’t know if they sell the most premium seats, but I can say I’ve flown them in business a few times and they’ve always had 100% load factor in J. What I found staggering on their A380 (flying from DEL) and their 747-8 (from GRU) is that even with over 100 seats in J, they were oversold on both occasions.

To the point I considered asking for a downgrade so that I could get a bit of privacy

AIRT0M wrote:

Which LH aircraft have 2-3-2 business class?

744
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Lufth ... 400_V4.php
sample photos here https://www.planespottingberlin.com/tri ... rt-berlin/

george77300 wrote:

Agreed. The BA window seats are very private. You have space for your feet and a reasonable number of the bulkhead window seats actually have direct aisle access. LH has no privacy, very small footrests etc..

My favourite was 64K on BA 744. Upstairs, direct access, a lot of space, I even once refused First upgrade to keep it. They don't have anything similar on new planes. Good memories.

[duplicate - delete please]