Was just looking at land use in and around LGA via Google Earth. Wow, never seen so many golf courses so close together. North West Long Island.

There is no obvious place for land reclamation either without being a lot further out than JFK already is. Would something be possible in Lower Bay without impacting any shipping lanes? It would take one hell of an expensive tunnel to get to Manhattan or New Jersey but bigger tasks have been undertaken when the necessity was there.

Not that there's much money in and around NYC

EAARbrat wrote:

With no LGA movements JFK could run wide open in all directions, its literally got two hands behind it back because of the sharing of airspace with LGA.

Bingo.

And as another poster stated, the time to close LGA would had been right after 9/11. With the multi billion dollar renovation, its too late now.

A hearty commendation to the hard working ATC folks who make the NYC airspace work somehow.

If LGA were to close it needed to happen a very long time ago, but we're past the point of no return now. LGA isn't going anywhere. Yes, it's closure would free up the airspace for JFK, but there's no way EWR and JFK could absorb the amount of passengers that use LGA. HPN is capacity restricted and that will NEVER change, and ISP has its own NIMBY issues as well, plus the Town of Islip is so corrupt that nothing can happen there without an entire political scandal. Last time someone made any renovations at ISP (new terminal) there was a scandal behind Pete McGowan causing a change of names from the Peter J. McGowan Concourse to the Veterans Memorial Concourse. Best we can do is hope these renovations make LGA look nicer and easier to use. I've been flying out of LGA and JFK my entire life, LGA is not going anywhere.

They need to pick a central location to the entire metro area, buy out all the buildings there, and drop them to build an ample-sized airport for the region...
I nominate the entire island of Manhattan!


Just curious, how long do you guys think it will be before the next thread is posted about this topic? This seems to be an annual event.

WPvsMW wrote:

The only solution: think KIX and NGO. New island in LI Sound. Then again, think NGO, because KIX is still sinking.

I thought they (for now) fix the sinking problem at KIX? At least it's nowhere as bad as it was?

Speaking of KIX - Osaka has their own version of LGA called ITM, and it's still open for a reason - too convenient for people to stop using it. And this is with KIX (and UKB) being able to handle those traffic at ITM easily. In NYC, both JFK and EWR are packed and doesn't have a ton of room for expansion.

AWACSooner wrote:

They need to pick a central location to the entire metro area, buy out all the buildings there, and drop them to build an ample-sized airport for the region...
I nominate the entire island of Manhattan!

Meh, just demolish all those highrise in midtown and turn Central Park into an airport. No need to flatten the whole island.

william wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Imagine if I said lets close down DCA and BWI and consolidate the DMV into IAD, that's essentially what you are saying but much worse.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

1. You can't just "run passengers through JFK & EWR," those airports are congested as is you can't just throw on 30 million more passengers like it is nothing.
2. LGA is a very convenient airport if you are going to Manhattan, no one wants to give that up
3. Closing LGA would be terrible in the air service world, certain routes could lose 1/2 their capacity to NYC
4. Sorry, I refuse to fly into ISP and HPN to get to NYC, I already had to do that once this year and I promised myself never again
5. Delta would throw a fit if they were forced to give up LGA
6. The Manhattan business community would throw a fit
7. Rail service is not an automatic fix to flying people into ISP and HPN

You mention nothing about the crowded inefficienct airspace on VOR days and a cluster......on IFR days due to LGA where it is.

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

If cost, community opposition, and environmental impact were not obstacles, sure, it would probably not be a bad idea to close LGA, streamline the airspace, and completely rebuild JFK as an airport that can handle three independent parallel approaches, with a completely new ATL-style terminal and direct rail access to Manhattan. The problem is that all three of those things are serious obstacles. The cost of doing it in New York City, where even relatively simple construction projects seem to balloon into 11-figure monstrosities, would be immense. There are a whole host of communities that would face dramatically increased noise impacts around JFK, and the optics of shifting the noise impacts from the gentrifying neighborhoods around LGA to the mostly low-income communities around JFK would not be good. Finally, adding those runways at JFK would require some more fill in Jamaica Bay, which would require change to federal law. Since all three of those obstacles are probably pretty much insurmountable, I don't think it's ever going to happen.

Midwestindy wrote:

william wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Imagine if I said lets close down DCA and BWI and consolidate the DMV into IAD, that's essentially what you are saying but much worse.



1. You can't just "run passengers through JFK & EWR," those airports are congested as is you can't just throw on 30 million more passengers like it is nothing.
2. LGA is a very convenient airport if you are going to Manhattan, no one wants to give that up
3. Closing LGA would be terrible in the air service world, certain routes could lose 1/2 their capacity to NYC
4. Sorry, I refuse to fly into ISP and HPN to get to NYC, I already had to do that once this year and I promised myself never again
5. Delta would throw a fit if they were forced to give up LGA
6. The Manhattan business community would throw a fit
7. Rail service is not an automatic fix to flying people into ISP and HPN

You mention nothing about the crowded inefficienct airspace on VOR days and a cluster......on IFR days due to LGA where it is.

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

zakuivcustom wrote:

Meh, just demolish all those highrise in midtown and turn Central Park into an airport. No need to flatten the whole island.

Obstacle clearance might be an issue for departures and arrivals

Close LGA and open up the Central Park airport in its place.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

This was something I've been pondering about for a good bit now. I already know that the PANYNJ and the city itself are pouring truck fulls of money into building new terminals and improving the airport; But in all honesty, I felt they should've just spent the budget into JFK & EWR instead considering that both of them serve the NY market more effectively, both operationally and for the traveler.

One person over at the NY Times wrote a piece 3 years ago on the same subject and it's a decent read.

I'd like to know your position on this topic. Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

Would you then be willing to reimburse DL the roughly $3.5B they have invested into this project at LGA?

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

william wrote:

You mention nothing about the crowded inefficienct airspace on VOR days and a cluster......on IFR days due to LGA where it is.

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

While that is true, it doesn't negate the fact that LGA is closer to Manhattan than JFK or EWR.

Ideally, the best case scenario would be to close all 3 airports and build a giant super airport with an up to date high speed transportation infrastructure.

At this point in time though, thats nearly impossible .

Midwestindy wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

While that is true, it doesn't negate the fact that LGA is closer to Manhattan than JFK or EWR.

Well if JFK were connected to Manhattan by high speed train as was envisioned in the 1940's, there would be no travel time advantage to LGA. Since LGA's air traffic interferes with efficient use of JFK, better connecting JFK could allow LGA to be permanently closed. It's not as if travel between LGA and Manhattan is fast by taxi. It's just as vulnerable to gridlock as any other travel by car in NYC.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

william wrote:

You mention nothing about the crowded inefficienct airspace on VOR days and a cluster......on IFR days due to LGA where it is.

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

Don’t blame it all on Robert Moses. When he imposed tha5 view on NYC, everyone thought that air travel would be for the “elites”. Jimmy Carter, Ted Kennedy, and Alfred Kahn changed that opinion.

GF

People seem to forget that PANYNJ doesn't just run the airports, but also the Hudson bridges and tunnels, the PATH Train, the ports, PA bus terminal, the WTC and the PA police. LGA is a cash cow for PANYNJ and they need all the money they can get to subsidize their less than stellar performers like the PATH.

Even if you instituted minimum gauge requirements, there isn't enough runway or terminal space between JFK and EWR to close LGA without significantly decreasing the number of air passengers in NYC compared to now.

Anyhow, could JFK physically accommodate the sizeable AA and DL operations in LGA? What about WN and NK's flights? If not, the government's going to be on the hook for compensating these airlines. Doubly so when you consider the big renovations carriers in LGA are investing.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

And? Welcome to NYC....

The things I outlined above vastly outweigh the issues LGA present. I'm sorry, you can't just close an airport with 30 million passengers a year, especially an airport that is the most convenient to reaching the center of the US's largest city.

Trust me I have had more than my fair share of delays flying in and out of LGA (and every other NYC airport for that matter), but that doesn't change the fact that it is an important asset that can't be removed.

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

Don’t blame it all on Robert Moses. When he imposed tha5 view on NYC, everyone thought that air travel would be for the “elites”. Jimmy Carter, Ted Kennedy, and Alfred Kahn changed that opinion.

GF

They were responding to the effect Southwest and PSA airlines were having in intrastate markers in Texas and California respectively. Those airlines were demonstrating that the CAB regulations of airfares just made airlines inefficient. It not only made air travel more costly but made it less efficient in its use of fuel at a time when there had been several major worldwide disruptions of oil supplies. The fixed prices had been determined on the basis of less than 2/3'rds of seats being filled. It was often less than half.

Southwest was careful to select the aircraft it thought would be the best for its business model. It selected the 737 which had just a two person cockpit and had jus two engines. Most other airliners had at least three crew members in the cockpit, and many had three or four engines.

It's interesting how California and Texas lead the low cost airline revolution with intrastate airlines not subject to CAB regulations. They both had major cities separated by distances long enough to justify jet travel between them. Most other states in the US with perhaps the exception of New York could not have generated air travel between multiple city pairs to sustain a low cost airline.

Even before Southwest first flew, passenger rail service and ocean liner traffic had steeply declined. In 1969 the SS United States which was only 16 years old was retired. AMTRAK was formed in 1971, because passenger trains couldn't compete with even highly regulated airfares.

Not too mention, New York, city and state; Connecticut and New Jersey are effectively financially bankrupt—pension debt, huge outflow of middle class and diminishing returns on taxation are putting paid to any huge infrastructure projects. Connecticut, even with Federal money, cannot meet its road projects. I-95 and Merritt Parkway won’t ever be expanded despite being obsolete for decades and gridlocked most of the day and night. I’ve spent an hour in traffic at midnight.

GF

MavyWavyATR wrote:

LAXLHR wrote:

You obviously have never lived in NYC before, nor do you use LGA/JFK and EWR frequently ...if ever I suspect.

First off, I grew up in Nassau County for 12 years so I had my share of trips through JFK & LGA during the time.

LAXLHR wrote:

Is it time to close LGA - SMH, and put those passengers where exactly? Stewart? Just wow.

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

As someone that has lived in Suffolk County for 16 years now, I could never see that happening. JFK & EWR simply lack adequate room for handling that many additional pax. HPN & ISP are not made for the Tri-State area as many think. ISP is great for pax that live east of the island. A drive from montauk to JFK for example takes over 2 hours, where a drive to ISP is half of that. HPN is for the greater westchester area.

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

The traffic nightmare that you just described will only be dwarfed by the political nightmare that will happen as NY and NJ jockey for where to put it.

You'd basically have to put it here:



Yes, I realize that's on water, but that's the only place that's between NY and NJ that would prevent the internecine political violence that would occur.

Yes, I realize that it wouldn't happen this century.

That's the point

(Oh and don't forget all of Long Island who wouldn't have an airport that is reasonable to get to betweeen 7am and 10am and 3pm and 7pm

Location,location,location!

So we distribute the almost 30 million passengers LGA handles every year to...... where exactly? The packed-to-the-brim JFK or EWR which can certainly handle 70% more passengers? Or do you want us to ship them off to Stewart and Teteboro? You can't pull the plug on LGA because there is no more room on the other NYC major airports to take over its ops.

"Is it time to close LGA" is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this website... and that's REALLY saying something.

neomax wrote:

Yes.

Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless.

What speed are we exactly talking about? Because high speed rail is not efficient on very short distance (20-30 miles in this case). Lots of power to get to the max speed then slow down. However if you can get a rail connection that cuts travel time in half (say 30 mins. max) then yes.

High speed rail could link JFK and EWR to other parts of the state or neighbouring states, though. That would make more sense.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

LGA is nowhere nearly as easy to travel to and from Manhattan as most major European airports are to their city centers. European airports typically have subway and intercity rail terminals onsite. From anywhere on the Swiss rail system, it is possible to travel directly to either GVA or ZRH and walk directly to an airport terminal. LGA has no subway connection to Manhattan thanks to Robert Moses. Moses thought air travel would always be for elites, so having subways connecting to airports would be irrelevant.

Don’t blame it all on Robert Moses. When he imposed tha5 view on NYC, everyone thought that air travel would be for the “elites”. Jimmy Carter, Ted Kennedy, and Alfred Kahn changed that opinion.

GF

Robert Moses also thought that highways should be for elites only as well. That's why he designed his parkways with very low overpasses that buses, filled with the unwashed masses", wouldn't be able to fit under thus preventing the masses from sullying his parks and Jones Beach.
And he did thwart an attempt to extend the IND Subway (the E Train) to Idlewild along the center median of the Van Wyck Expressway when it was in the planning stage.

ltbewr wrote:

I do see a longer term problem for LGA, that is average global warming raising the waters just off if (Long Island Sound) that may limit it use a few decades from now. Still, there is no real choice to keep it and try to improve the terminals and put in a rail/light rail mass transit connection.

Hilarious....

hz747300 wrote:

planecane wrote:

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where would this new airport go? Eminent domain harlem and replace it with an airport?

I'd put it in Prospect Park in Brooklyn, then make LGA, and JFK parks.

Suuuure, right next to one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in NYC. Not to mention you'd be lucky to fit 5000' runways into that space.

global2 wrote:

Robert Moses also thought that highways should be for elites only as well. That's why he designed his parkways with very low overpasses that buses, filled with the unwashed masses", wouldn't be able to fit under thus preventing the masses from sullying his parks and Jones Beach.

Except that's a myth. Jones Beach has, and has always had, bus service, and Moses built parks in every neighborhood of the city, including the very poor ones.,

Yes. Shut down an airport currently in the middle phases of an $8 Billion renovation. You, sir, may be an excellent replacement for Cuomo after his 'America never has been and (probably) never will be great' speech.

https://newyorkyimby.com/2018/07/la-gua ... adway.html

Ok being realistic, LGA screws JFK and EWR out of part of their airspace (particularly JFK.) Would having RNP 0.1 approaches (almost as good as ILS minimums) and departures at LGA and JFK help mitigate the issue? You can have very short finals to LGA while still getting good volume, and with RF curves you can keep things much more constrained.

YYZatcboy wrote:

Ok being realistic, LGA screws JFK and EWR out of part of their airspace (particularly JFK.) Would having RNP 0.1 approaches (almost as good as ILS minimums) and departures at LGA and JFK help mitigate the issue? You can have very short finals to LGA while still getting good volume, and with RF curves you can keep things much more constrained.

Yes, widespread adoption of RNP procedures, approach, missed approach and departures, could go a ways to boost capacity, but right now they pretty much max’d out the runways.

GF

viewtopic.php?t=1341011
viewtopic.php?t=1395295
viewtopic.php?t=543651
viewtopic.php?t=1401683 - this one is going on right now!
viewtopic.php?t=568191
viewtopic.php?t=34611

etc. etc.

I keep thinking that at some point people will either learn to search for topics already discussed, or just get tired of talking about it, but I guess that's wishful thinking at this point. Still, for those who are new around here, I guess it's gotta be someone's job to point out that the topic's been done to death. Starting a long time ago, but recently too.

My dad used to take me to plane spot from the LGA observation deck on weekends. He used to tell me, "They'll never stop working on this airport." He was right. Despite all of its warts and decades-long upheavals, LGA is not going anywhere.

The way I see it close Rikers down and with some land fill build a third runway.As stated above LGA is not going anywhere.

Revelation wrote:

OneSexyL1011 wrote:

Ideally, the best case scenario would be to close all 3 airports and build a giant super airport with an up to date high speed transportation infrastructure.

It really isn't.

There is this big problem called the Hudson River, and its related problems New York Harbor, the East River, Long Island Sound, etc.

This isn't the plains of Colorado or North Texas, or even the suburban sprawl of Georgia or Virginia.

You really are better off having multiple airports on the different land masses and to take the pressure off the river crossings, just like LON really is better off with LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, etc.

Unfortunately that makes the airspace complicated, but that's an easier problem to solve, and it puts the burden on solving the problem onto the people who have the problem, namely the aviation industry.

If the aviation industry doesn't think it's worth investing in the technology and organizational restructuring needed to improve airspace management, they really only have themselves to blame.

In reality, no one in the aviation industry is advocating for one NYC airport and/or closing LGA anyhow.

Did you really just purposely cut out the 2nd part of my post in your quote just so you can go on a rant about why you think it wont work?

It is amusing to read the comments of those who have no idea of what life in the city is like.
A few things come to mind.
Firstly, how about a "kvetchathon" which is the first thing I can think of. New Yorkers LIVE to kvetch, especially about the airports. It's a favorite sport.

Secondly, many people have no idea whatsoever how mobbed-up the city is. That's one of the reasons none of the airports had public transportation from the get go. Who do you suppose controlled all those cabs and limo's not to mention the associated Unions? Oh, and of course the politicians are famously mobbed-up. They make the legislation, let the contracts,etc.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.

No matter what anyone decides, the mob is going to cash-out because----- they control everything involved with construction. AND all those Unions.
Close the airport and they will build the new one. Add public transportation and they build the train lines. Continue building, hey, fuhgettaboutit, all the concrete, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, steel, plumbing, waste disposal, and on and on and on. Don't forget those Unions.
Oh, don't forget about all of those jobs.

So, for all those people who live in Upper-Manhattan to those in Forest Hills, Rego Park, Five Towns,etc. Nobody is going to let those airports go away.

Close LGA? Just cannot understand the thinking, then posting, then discussing this. Make A.net a paysite again.