This was something I've been pondering about for a good bit now. I already know that the PANYNJ and the city itself are pouring truck fulls of money into building new terminals and improving the airport; But in all honesty, I felt they should've just spent the budget into JFK & EWR instead considering that both of them serve the NY market more effectively, both operationally and for the traveler.

One person over at the NY Times wrote a piece 3 years ago on the same subject and it's a decent read.

I'd like to know your position on this topic. Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

No.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

Spend an hour in traffic on the Van Wyck or trying to get through the Lincoln/Holland Tunnels (or GW Bridge) and ask again.

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Close it now while what, $2B in renovations are underway?

Where else will you put the flights? LGA basically exists as an O&D airport for NYC within the perimeter, although I'm of the feeling that the perimeter rule should be lifted...which could enable JFK for more connections and allow more long-haul flights at times people want to fly.

I think the original poster fails to realize the number of passengers who use LGA each day. JFK and EWR can't pick up all that extra traffic.

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where would this new airport go? Eminent domain harlem and replace it with an airport?

MavyWavyATR wrote:

This was something I've been pondering about for a good bit now. I already know that the PANYNJ and the city itself are pouring truck fulls of money into building new terminals and improving the airport; But in all honesty, I felt they should've just spent the budget into JFK & EWR instead considering that both of them serve the NY market more effectively, both operationally and for the traveler.

One person over at the NY Times wrote a piece 3 years ago on the same subject and it's a decent read.

I'd like to know your position on this topic. Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

well, I'll throw my .02 in for this as a frequent NYC flyer - I'm not sure how you're measuring "effectively" or "operationally" but in my opinion No, and I can't wait for the project to get completed. Yes, LGA is not a pretty gem yet and it's facilities are old and out of date but it takes me 1/2 the time to get from most points in manhattan on the east side to get to LGA vs JFK or EWR.

Typically here's how I think about it:
Getting to the Airport - To get to LGA, the trip in an uber or town car the trip to LGA can take from 20 mins to an hour in my experience, to get to JFK or EWR it can take 45 mins to 2 hours due to congestion on the roadways. I've done public transit to all 3 and in my opinion it's not really an option - having to take a subway (some times multiple) to connect to a bus or airtran takes too long, can be a miserable experience & more of a headache than the money I'd save by taking a private car.

At the Airport - LGA is a pretty simple lay out, multiple concourses usually means that the security lines are pretty short for Precheck and even walking to the furthest gates is 5 mins after clearing security. Because of the size of JFK & EWR, I've had a lot more problems with security getting backed up & taking 20 mins to clear and post security the concourses are much more spread out, where I can have a 5 minute walk at LGA that can take 20 minutes if you loose the gate lotto.

The issue as I understand it really is that too many planes between fly into the airspace around NYC which causes a lot of the headaches for travelers, my simply removing LGA from the equation, I don't think that would materially improve the situation here at all since I would presume that JFK & EWR would add runway capacity to absorb the traffic at the two locations. I've never really seen any in-depth analysis on how that would look from an ATC perspective, if anyone has please share, I'd love to read it.

Lol .... No

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

I'm sorry but no - you'd need multiple single train lines direct to the airport to make a dent (probably UES, UWS, Grand Central, Penn, FIDI) the reality is getting around in the city is problematic and a hassle when pulling luggage around, if you spend 20 - 40 mins getting to the pick up point in the city it doesn't save much time unless you're comparing it to the subway - air train setup.

Regarding the consolidation of all 3, that's laughable, the amount of roadway & transportation costs to connect North Jersey, Connecticut, Hudson Valley & the city itself would make this unfeasible.

If the climate change people are correct, sea rise will cause serious runway flooding problems at LGA in the 2030s. Perhaps this can be addressed by building dikes; but nobody seems to talk about it.

Shut er down, boys!

I do see a longer term problem for LGA, that is average global warming raising the waters just off if (Long Island Sound) that may limit it use a few decades from now. Still, there is no real choice to keep it and try to improve the terminals and put in a rail/light rail mass transit connection.

HPAEAA wrote:

The issue as I understand it really is that too many planes between fly into the airspace around NYC which causes a lot of the headaches for travelers, my simply removing LGA from the equation, I don't think that would materially improve the situation here at all since I would presume that JFK & EWR would add runway capacity to absorb the traffic at the two locations. I've never really seen any in-depth analysis on how that would look from an ATC perspective, if anyone has please share, I'd love to read it.

I think this is the point the OP was trying to make for closing LGA, there is no other option to improving airspace over NYC.

No way, the closest airport to the city, what it needs is a direct subway line to the terminal and to make better use of the slots, no airliners below 90 seats. Years back I was watching a steady stream of Dash-8-100's clog up landings and takeoffs while US used these planes to hold on to the slots during their lean years. Use the slots to move the most people as LGA will never have more than two runways.

cheapgreek wrote:

No way, the closest airport to the city, what it needs is a direct subway line to the terminal and to make better use of the slots, no airliners below 90 seats. Years back I was watching a steady stream of Dash-8-100's clog up landings and takeoffs while US used these planes to hold on to the slots during their lean years. Use the slots to move the most people as LGA will never have more than two runways.

I do like the idea of requiring upgrades however not sure how many communities would loose service as a result... fortunately the dash-8s are gone but there is still a healthy flow of the 40 & 50 seaters operating at the airport.

There is actually a proposal to add a 3rd once Riker's is shut down, looking for the details but there would also be room to potentially add a another terminal as well.
https://www.constructiondive.com/news/n ... ia/440202/

Hahaha. Good one!

Yes of course! I mean theres PLENTY of space in JFK and EWR. Lets obliterate aviation yall.

Simple, DFW is 3½ times the size of JFK; I’d suggest bulldozing insufferable Brooklyn and turning it into the New JFK.

GF

MavyWavyATR wrote:

This was something I've been pondering about for a good bit now. I already know that the PANYNJ and the city itself are pouring truck fulls of money into building new terminals and improving the airport; But in all honesty, I felt they should've just spent the budget into JFK & EWR instead considering that both of them serve the NY market more effectively, both operationally and for the traveler.

One person over at the NY Times wrote a piece 3 years ago on the same subject and it's a decent read.

I'd like to know your position on this topic. Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

You obviously have never lived in NYC before, nor do you use LGA/JFK and EWR frequently ...if ever I suspect. Fly in and out of all 3 over 300 times and then ask again!... no utilize them a few times each and the answer will be a little clearer.

JFK has not been sidelined in favor of LGA. EVERY terminal at JFK except for T7 is new (and perhaps the former EA terminal that some DL flights use (sorry, I barely "never") look at DL but I think I saw an old little Square terminal over there. Basically a lot of investment has been poured into JFK since the late 90s. It was a dump prior, I remember.

Is it time to close LGA - SMH, and put those passengers where exactly? Stewart? Just wow.

spinkid wrote:

I think the original poster fails to realize the number of passengers who use LGA each day. JFK and EWR can't pick up all that extra traffic.

I’ve sat in line at JFK during the PM rush for over an hour, with aircraft starting on A or B, joining U, crossing 13L, then going back down C to 22R. While certainly not normal, I could see lines like that for most of the day if even half of LGA’s traffic was moved over, supposing there would even be enough gates for all of those extra flights...

LAXLHR wrote:

You obviously have never lived in NYC before, nor do you use LGA/JFK and EWR frequently ...if ever I suspect.

First off, I grew up in Nassau County for 12 years so I had my share of trips through JFK & LGA during the time.

LAXLHR wrote:

Is it time to close LGA - SMH, and put those passengers where exactly? Stewart? Just wow.

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

After spending over $4-5 Billion to build a new terminal? Fat chance that would happen. That money would have been better spent on building a right of way allowing nonstop high speed trains from JFK to Penn Station and upgrading JFK.

* BREAKING NEWS *

LGA CLOSING TOMORROW!

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Seriously, people, *WHAT* high speed trains to a New York airport? Who will put them in?

Public transit in New York City is an absolute abortion and it's kind of amazing people haven't just started shooting up anything MTA related.

If you close LGA, where is all the traffic supposed to go? EWR pretty much can't be expanded and JFK doesn't have room for another few hundred departures and arrivals daily.

planecane wrote:

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where would this new airport go? Eminent domain harlem and replace it with an airport?

I'd put it in Prospect Park in Brooklyn, then make LGA, and JFK parks.

hz747300 wrote:

planecane wrote:

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where would this new airport go? Eminent domain harlem and replace it with an airport?

I'd put it in Prospect Park in Brooklyn, then make LGA, and JFK parks.

How would a mega airport replacing EWR, JFK, and LGA fit into a park that's smaller than LGA?

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where?

Was born and raised in SE Nassau county and spent 44 years of my life there. Both my parts worked in the airline industry in operations and as a cabin crew member. I've flown in and out of all three hundreds of times from the early 1970's. Heck my wife still flies back to NY through LGA every month since we left 4 years ago.

Is LGA going to be closed, not after all the investment.

That being said LGA should have been closed post 9/11, no particular exact meaning behind that date other than it was a good time for major changes to have been adopted. With LGA gone JFK could have utilized both pairs for takeoffs and landing all the time except of course during strong crosswind weather situations. EWR would not have to deal with LGA outbound and inbound squeezing. My father talks about the development map for JFK when its was Idlewild and a full train system was planned early on to connect directly to NYC and the local rail systems. We are talking mid-to late 1950's re-enforcing the sickness that is the NY metro area. Anyone who thinks JFK and EWR couldn't handle the uptick is nuts especially with ISP for eastern Nassau/Suffolk and SWF for northern Westchester to just below the Albany area.

LGA has always been the problem in NYC but now that the money has been alotted all those that regular this area and the locals are doomed to enjoy the disaster this will continue to be.

EAARbrat wrote:

LGA has always been the problem in NYC but now that the money has been alotted all those that regular this area and the locals are doomed to enjoy the disaster this will continue to be.

This sums it up.

hz747300 wrote:

planecane wrote:

neomax wrote:

Yes.

The only reason people use LGA is because its closer to the city. Once they build high speed rail from Manhattan to JFK/EWR, LGA will be useless. But realistically, they should bulldoze all three airports and build one massive new airport to replace all of them.

Where would this new airport go? Eminent domain harlem and replace it with an airport?

I'd put it in Prospect Park in Brooklyn, then make LGA, and JFK parks.

It's not big enough. You'd have to tear down a mile or more all around the park. It would be better to redevelop JFK than your proposal.

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).[/quote]

You think JFK and EWR could pick up that slack just like that? Lets be realistic, that scenario is just not going to happen.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

Plus all the flights going to JFK would be able to work for both O&D and international connecting traffic. The inside the LGA perimeter flights are more natural feed for JFK international flights than the outside the perimeter domestic flights that go to JFK. Instead of two regional jet flights split between two airports, there could be one consolidated flight on a 737-800 or A320.

Some suggestion:
Close LGA and EWR
PHL and JFK limited to regional services only
Massive expanion on PCT with 200m capacity, and rename as “Albert Einstein-Donald J. Trump NewYork-Philadelphia-Newark Princeton Intercontinental Airport”

With no LGA movements JFK could run wide open in all directions, its literally got two hands behind it back because of the sharing of airspace with LGA.

Would TEB be usable as a commercial airport without LGA air traffic?

Could be a New York version of LCY. One could even imagine a scheduled LCY-TEB flight (I imagine there are quite a few of those flights now, just on private/chartered aircraft)

I’d argue there’s two schools of thought regarding whether or not to close LGA and it’s impact on the market. Closing the airport raises the question of whether or not the already congested EWR/JFK could pick up the slack. The other being that with LGA shuttered, you free up air space, have more funds to devote to EWR and JFK.

I’d posit that $2B could go a long way towards boring new tunnels for faster transport to EWR and JFK. From Manhattan and other points. Additionally, taking LGA traffic out of the equation opens the airspace to allow for more efficient flows into and out of EWR and JFK. The capacity LGA has now could easily be absorbed by upgauging larger markets served by all 3 markets. It is easier to upgauge larger aircraft than grow airspace while maintaining status quo. Land use restrictions around EWR and JFK all but ensure neither will ever be able to expand.

As for building a mega airport to replace all 3 airports, there is nowhere to build an airport large enough to handle the needs of a metro region of over 21M people. Looking at Google Earth, the closest undeveloped land to NYC is between Middletown, Monticello and Port Jervis. Provided it’s not protected land, PANYNJ would spend millions just earth moving to flatten the land there. Building an offshore island like HKG, KIX is a nonstarter. While the ocean floor around Long Island is shallow enough I doubt the proposal would pass environmental muster let alone it would constrict access to the second busiest port in the Western Hemisphere.

77H

LGA is a heavily used airport that is getting extremely big value from its real estate. There are plenty of useless facilities in the world, but LGA is a very useful facility that helps people every day.

The only solution: think KIX and NGO. New island in LI Sound. Then again, think NGO, because KIX is still sinking.

It'll close once they build the Maglev Hyperloop

We should build Bill Island beyond the Verrazano Narrows Bridge! Seeing how great Boris Island worked out, it might be a rare moment of success for De Blasio.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

Do you think they should've just closed LGA instead of investing in the ongoing improvements?

Closing LGA is a bad idea. The airport handles 30 million passengers and close to 400,000 movements a year. JFK and EWR cannot absorb that in their current state.

spinkid wrote:

I think the original poster fails to realize the number of passengers who use LGA each day. JFK and EWR can't pick up all that extra traffic.

Just to simply answer the OP's question : no.

Major upgrade work is underway, so now is definitely not the time to close LGA. As many have stated in their post, it plays a major role in the NYC area and its traffic could not simply be transferred to EWR and JFK or maybe with a shoehorn.

A global look at public transportation in the area would certainly improve accessing the 3 airports when capacity grows. Rethink NYC has some interesting ideas like relocating Rikers Island Prison and having a direct link to an expanded LGA. Not sure it solves the ATC problem, though. A recommended read: http://www.rethinknyc.org/

You can't close LGA without a suitable alternative ready to open tomorrow and that does not exist. LGA is undergoing not $2BN but $8BN to $10BN in renovations (when all is said and done). That will not resolve the short runway issue or the capacity constraints but the airport is favored because of its proximity to Manhattan. If this country would spend the billions it does invading other countries, throwing military parades, propping up failed governments around the world for decades, and looking to space as the next frontier and would re-allocate or have spent that money on infrastructure, our bridges would not be crumbling, our airports would not suck, and our train system would look more like Europe's. But back to the question of LGA, neither JFK nor EWR can absorb the flow that goes through LGA. What has helped LGA somewhat is the reduction in turboprops flying to places people aren't going to because the airlines were squatting on slots. LGA is for better or worse, here to stay.

ro1960 wrote:

Just to simply answer the OP's question : no.

Major upgrade work is underway, so now is definitely not the time to close LGA. As many have stated in their post, it plays a major role in the NYC area and its traffic could not simply be transferred to EWR and JFK or maybe with a shoehorn.

A global look at public transportation in the area would certainly improve accessing the 3 airports when capacity grows. Rethink NYC has some interesting ideas like relocating Rikers Island Prison and having a direct link to an expanded LGA. Not sure it solves the ATC problem, though. A recommended read: http://www.rethinknyc.org/

Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

Imagine if I said lets close down DCA and BWI and consolidate the DMV into IAD, that's essentially what you are saying but much worse.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

LAXLHR wrote:

Is it time to close LGA - SMH, and put those passengers where exactly? Stewart? Just wow.

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

1. You can't just "run passengers through JFK & EWR," those airports are congested as is you can't just throw on 30 million more passengers like it is nothing.
2. LGA is a very convenient airport if you are going to Manhattan, no one wants to give that up
3. Closing LGA would be terrible in the air service world, certain routes could lose 1/2 their capacity to NYC
4. Sorry, I refuse to fly into ISP and HPN to get to NYC, I already had to do that once this year and I promised myself never again
5. Delta would throw a fit if they were forced to give up LGA
6. The Manhattan business community would throw a fit
7. Rail service is not an automatic fix to flying people into ISP and HPN

ro1960 wrote:

Just to simply answer the OP's question : no.

Major upgrade work is underway, so now is definitely not the time to close LGA. As many have stated in their post, it plays a major role in the NYC area and its traffic could not simply be transferred to EWR and JFK or maybe with a shoehorn.

A global look at public transportation in the area would certainly improve accessing the 3 airports when capacity grows. Rethink NYC has some interesting ideas like relocating Rikers Island Prison and having a direct link to an expanded LGA. Not sure it solves the ATC problem, though. A recommended read: http://www.rethinknyc.org/

whoever came up with that needs to get a reality check. Do these people have any concept of how much it cost to build stuff in New York? For the cost of that, they should first bother to finish the second avenue subway line. If we can't even afford to build out the 2nd avenue subway line, how are we getting money for this kind of project. Complete lunacy.

Midwestindy wrote:

Imagine if I said lets close down DCA and BWI and consolidate the DMV into IAD, that's essentially what you are saying but much worse.

MavyWavyATR wrote:

LAXLHR wrote:

Is it time to close LGA - SMH, and put those passengers where exactly? Stewart? Just wow.

If LGA were closed, I'd just simply run the passengers through JFK & EWR (the two primary NYC airports) with ISP and HPN handling some of the load when needed (ISP & HPN would be linked to Manhattan by existing rail service).

1. You can't just "run passengers through JFK & EWR," those airports are congested as is you can't just throw on 30 million more passengers like it is nothing.
2. LGA is a very convenient airport if you are going to Manhattan, no one wants to give that up
3. Closing LGA would be terrible in the air service world, certain routes could lose 1/2 their capacity to NYC
4. Sorry, I refuse to fly into ISP and HPN to get to NYC, I already had to do that once this year and I promised myself never again
5. Delta would throw a fit if they were forced to give up LGA
6. The Manhattan business community would throw a fit
7. Rail service is not an automatic fix to flying people into ISP and HPN

You mention nothing about the crowded inefficienct airspace on VOR days and a cluster......on IFR days due to LGA where it is.