Good for them---- time for workers to stand up!!!!

Comical how many times have F/As at DL voted against unions? At least three times against AFA plus the IAMs last effort in 2015 that didn’t end up with an election.

If the AFA couldn’t pull it off why could the IAM who doesn’t represent mainline F/As at any carrier?

Maybe DL F/As should ask former TWA employees about their experience being represented by the IAM.

The IAM kept those folks getting a paycheck way longer than they would have gotten.

Trk1 wrote:

Good for them---- time for workers to stand up!!!!

The workers may "stand up" by supporting the union's bid, but they may equally "stand up" be rejecting the union. They have to decide whether or not the problems a union creates would be offset by the benefits it brings - or claims to bring.

The history of airlines in the Americas indicates that unions are not generally beneficial to the average worker, but serve to line the pockets of union leaders. The IAM has been an extreme example of this.

Looks like some bad cut and paste has me as quoted for what others have said. If you are going to quote someone, get it right.

Boof02671 wrote:

The IAM kept those folks getting a paycheck way longer than they would have gotten.

Oh really? Why is it the employees pay the IAM dues-NOT the other way around. Didn’t realize the IAM PAYS their members-except of course the high paid union officers.

Really?

Someone needs to look at this from a safety standpoint. Having observed employer/ employee relations in aviation union and non-union environment, there are some key safeguards easily shattered in a non union environment. Additionally, unionization has little to do with customer service standards.

TransWorldOne wrote:

I dont understand how a union, which is better for the workers, will spell doom and gloom for Delta but okay.

It's quite simple actually. A union protects the lazy and incompetent at the expense of the good workers (they'll do anything to keep enrollment up). So then what happens? Good workers leave 'cause they get tired of working with bad apples and paying extortion for this "benefit". Then you're just left with a bunch of bad apples. Do you think that benefits customers?

From my experience, it works about like this: In every non-union job I've had there's about 10% of people who do an awesome job, 80% do an ok job and 10% are terrible. In a union shop (especially with entry level jobs) it's more like 3%, 27%, 70%.

I was a member of a union and it was the worst job I've ever had. I then went to work in mgmt for the same company...the second worst job I ever had. I'll never work for a union company again (as a "protected" worker or a manager). It's no wonder Union enrollment is down 75% in the last 35-40 years. It provides negative value to its best members.

I bet IAM members love watching the union waste their dues trying to organize DL F/A's. They fail miserably every time. It will only get worse as many of the bad apples from NW* retire/leave. (Not knocking all NW F/As, many of them are excellent, but make no doubt they are the contingent that's pushing this).

KUZAWU08 wrote:

Someone needs to look at this from a safety standpoint. Having observed employer/ employee relations in aviation union and non-union environment, there are some key safeguards easily shattered in a non union environment.

Absolutely false. Unions serve to protect the exact people who don't follow saftey regs. Who wins there? I can give you dozens of examples from my former years, but worst I recall was a guy who should have been fired at least twice...back on the job two days after a hearing he ran a bag cart into an airplane at high speed and hit it hard enough to put a hole through it. Another guy took out the water system in the whole terminal when he drove a truck into a water line. (I have pictures of this one). Unions used to care about safety, but now it's all about greed.

Boof02671 wrote:

The IAM kept those folks getting a paycheck way longer than they would have gotten.

Quite the opposite actually. Hundreds of thousands of union jobs have been eliminated in the last few decades...

RDUDDJI wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

The IAM kept those folks getting a paycheck way longer than they would have gotten.

Quite the opposite actually. Hundreds of thousands of union jobs have been eliminated in the last few decades...

...or the solid middle class airline jobs the IAM has replaced through outfits like Air Wisconsin (NW/UA), McGee (AS) and UGE (UA) where they still collect dues

MSPNWA wrote:

I think it's a matter of time before a vote is implemented. The union drive has gained momentum lately. Whether it would pass or not is still a question, but the way its going a union is looking more and more likely at some point.

Do we really know that though? We heard the same stories about the momentum and an all time high will to make it happen in 2015 too before the IAM had to withdraw their attempt because of the fraud uncovered and in three years since then they still haven't managed to get the ~2,000 additional legitimate signatures they need to even get a vote held. That's about the momentum of a glacier, it's not clear to me yet that anything is different from the last time other than after three years of campaigning they may almost be close to having the minimum amount of legitimate interest to actually warrant vote.

It’s clearly evident some of you have no idea about the process.

Whatever ones views on unions may be I think that ship sailed.

The best chance was years ago when all the ranks of NW were still there. Since then how many have retired and are replaced by younger people who typically have less experience and interest in unions.

Boof02671 wrote:

It’s clearly evident some of you have no idea about the process.

It’s clearly evident you are delusional about the IAM and it’s track record at other carriers which isn’t good.

I do not know about the internal politics at Delta, however, it seems to me that Delta management care much more about their frontline workers and they seem much happier than other carriers. If they unionize it could disrupt that semi-happy relation between the two working groups.

N983AN wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

It’s clearly evident some of you have no idea about the process.

It’s clearly evident you are delusional about the IAM and it’s track record at other carriers which isn’t good.

If the IAM is so bad then why do they represent more airline employees than any other union?

And you can’t blame the loss of jobs due to bankruptcy on any union.

And airlines have been hiring, not laying off.

RDUDDJI wrote:

KUZAWU08 wrote:

Someone needs to look at this from a safety standpoint. Having observed employer/ employee relations in aviation union and non-union environment, there are some key safeguards easily shattered in a non union environment.

Absolutely false. Unions serve to protect the exact people who don't follow saftey regs. Who wins there? I can give you dozens of examples from my former years, but worst I recall was a guy who should have been fired at least twice...back on the job two days after a hearing he ran a bag cart into an airplane at high speed and hit it hard enough to put a hole through it. Another guy took out the water system in the whole terminal when he drove a truck into a water line. (I have pictures of this one). Unions used to care about safety, but now it's all about greed.

Famously a Pan Am pilot let his girlfriend flight attendant take off and fly and land a B707 from FRK-BER he was fired the union got him his job back. Its what they do....

Wow why don’t you go back a hundred years?

Unions don’t protect the lazy. Companies have to follow Just Cause by law when terminate an employee.

By law a union has to represent anyone working under the contract, it’s called Duty of Fair Representation.

and I’ve seen plenty of union members disciplined and terminated.

You are all believing in a stereotype that doesn’t exsist.

From my understanding is, FT staff are getting angry at the fact that the RR program is replacing FT jobs and that RR's are unreliable. To an extent, that's true. However I think that the RR program is more beneficial as opposed to adding more FT staff.

Departments like 120 are meant to be a building block. For some it's a career, but DL encourages upward movement within the company.

The decrease in FT staff lately has been very noticeable. Essentially 45 RR's per 15 FT.

This is simple really, if unions provided a good value they would be growing not shrinking. In the US they would be almost extinct if not for a whole host of friendly laws and politicians.

Boof02671 wrote:

N983AN wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

It’s clearly evident some of you have no idea about the process.

It’s clearly evident you are delusional about the IAM and it’s track record at other carriers which isn’t good.

If the IAM is so bad then why do they represent more airline employees than any other union?

And you can’t blame the loss of jobs due to bankruptcy on any union.

And airlines have been hiring, not laying off.

Why did the TWA employees under the IAM lose seniority?

When UA created UGE the company wasn’t in bankruptcy.

When AS created McGee the company wasn’t in bankruptcy. When the rampers at SeaTac got replaced by Menzies AS wasn’t in bankruptcy.

You need to open your eyes.

No one from LUS or former TWA at AA likes the IAM

Because AA forced all TW unions to give up there LPPs or AA wouldn’t purchase TWA.

The TWU has specific seniority language in their CBA, so it went to arbitration.

http://www.twu555.org/wp-content/upload ... cision.pdf

The IAM had a seniority deal with the APFA and they reneged and it went to court.

The information is readily available, the IAM spent millions in trying to get the former TW employees their seniority.

So UAL and AS we’re using non-union vendors., the IAM secured those jobs and got them a CBA.

And AS was found liable in the SEA Arbitration and had to pay those former employees.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... -handling/

Don’t let the facts get in the way of your narratives

Funny the mechanics at LUS voted to keep the IAM at US in 2013.

The IBT tried in 2008 and failed.

And the TWU couldn’t get enough cards in 2008 and the ramp remained IAM.

I’m LUS Maintenance and I love the IAM.

So you are lying.

Boof02671 wrote:

And AS was found liable in the SEA Arbitration and had to pay those former employees.

IIRC, the only former employees AS had to pay were the few who didn't take the voluntary severance package. Even after winning the initial agreement, the IAM wasn't able to get any of those jobs back.

It was all in the hands of the arbiter.

So anything bad that happens is somehow the fault of an arbitrator or the bankruptcy process? Serial airline bankruptcies are more than a decade in the past (7 years for AA), time to stop with that cop out.

The jobs at AS never came back.

The TWA F/As were stapled.

What will the IAM possibly do for DL?

Did you not read and comprehend?

They both went to arbitration.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem.

And I see you didn’t refute one factual piece of information I posted that answered your post and refuted your misinformation

Insertnamehere wrote:

I do not know about the internal politics at Delta, however, it seems to me that Delta management care much more about their frontline workers and they seem much happier than other carriers. If they unionize it could disrupt that semi-happy relation between the two working groups.

BINGO BANGO. And then the gap between UA/AA and DL will narrow. Whereas DL is the dominant customer service oriented airline, leagues above its direct competition, that will shrink to the point that UA/AA/DL mine as well all wear the same uniform. A FA union at DL will completely obliterate the airline. 90 years of doing things without a union, nothing good can be realized with one. I pitty the day it happens.

jumbojet wrote:

Insertnamehere wrote:

I do not know about the internal politics at Delta, however, it seems to me that Delta management care much more about their frontline workers and they seem much happier than other carriers. If they unionize it could disrupt that semi-happy relation between the two working groups.

BINGO BANGO. And then the gap between UA/AA and DL will narrow. Whereas DL is the dominant customer service oriented airline, leagues above its direct competition, that will shrink to the point that UA/AA/DL mine as well all wear the same uniform. A FA union at DL will completely obliterate the airline. 90 years of doing things without a union, nothing good can be realized with one. I pitty the day it happens.

Load of crap.

Delta’s pilots are unionized.

Boof02671 wrote:

So UAL and AS we’re using non-union vendors., the IAM secured those jobs and got them a CBA.

AS created McGee to replace Menzies, and approached the IAM to recognize them as the representing McGee employees. The IAM didn't "secure" those out of thin air; AS came to the IAM.

The IAM could have said no and they did negotiate a contract.

It was part of the arbitration as it was totally settled yet.

Boof02671 wrote:

Because AA forced all TW unions to give up there LPPs or AA wouldn’t purchase TWA.

The TWU has specific seniority language in their CBA, so it went to arbitration.

http://www.twu555.org/wp-content/upload ... cision.pdf

The IAM had a seniority deal with the APFA and they reneged and it went to court.

The information is readily available, the IAM spent millions in trying to get the former TW employees their seniority.

So UAL and AS we’re using non-union vendors., the IAM secured those jobs and got them a CBA.

And AS was found liable in the SEA Arbitration and had to pay those former employees.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/a ... -handling/

Don’t let the facts get in the way of your narratives

Funny the mechanics at LUS voted to keep the IAM at US in 2013.

The IBT tried in 2008 and failed.

And the TWU couldn’t get enough cards in 2008 and the ramp remained IAM.

I’m LUS Maintenance and I love the IAM.

So you are lying.

Yeah I believe you do love the iam because in your case you are hooked with the iam and the twu of which the twu is worse. I had a lot of years under the iam I am a former NW mechanic the iam brought back the worst contract in the best times I had in my time there thats why we threw them to the street and voted AMFA in. Now can say in the end it didn't end well for us but initially we got a 13 dollar an hour raise the second we got our AMFA contract something the iam said was impossible then 9/11 happened which changed aviation forever then NW and DL knew they were going to merge and were bound and determined to break AMFA because they didn't want a militant union like AMFA at DL thats for sure so they spent millions recruiting scabs and buying off politicians and the FAA it was like nothing I ever saw in my life if i hadn't lived it i would never have believed it. As long as airlines are governed by the RLA and the NMB there is no advantage to be in a union. I am non union now and I can assure you I make far and away more than you do. I don't envy you being in that mess over at AA.

AMFA is a joke. They screwed all of you at NW, they are going on six years of negotiations at WN and agreed to vote on not an agreed TA.

And you can thank AMFA for no status quo protection for a newly organized group.

Trk1 wrote:

Good for them---- time for workers to stand up!!!!

good for them!

If the workers were smart, they would vote in anyone but IAM. My position at my company is represented by IAM and our contract is terrible. Even people I know that are or were under IAM, or know about IAM, hates them too or at least knows they suck. Teamsters or even TWU would be a much better union.

What company?

Blame your negotiators.

What company?

Blame your negotiators.

By the way the IAM is the ONLY LEGAL and SANCTIONED campaign at DL.

See Delta can do this and the FAs could do nothing about it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... olicy.html

TWA772LR wrote:

If the workers were smart, they would vote in anyone but IAM. My position at my company is represented by IAM and our contract is terrible. Even people I know that are or were under IAM, or know about IAM, hates them too or at least knows they suck. Teamsters or even TWU would be a much better union.

This is funny. It is always a last ditch strategy and plot to claim the union about to be voted in is the worse of the bunch, and we need to go with x,y,z union instead. The same thing happened at jetBlue a few months ago.

The people and local workers make up the union. If the union is sucking, its because the members are being lazy and not hands on enough.

CobaltScar wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

If the workers were smart, they would vote in anyone but IAM. My position at my company is represented by IAM and our contract is terrible. Even people I know that are or were under IAM, or know about IAM, hates them too or at least knows they suck. Teamsters or even TWU would be a much better union.

This is funny. It is always a last ditch strategy and plot to claim the union about to be voted in is the worse of the bunch, and we need to go with x,y,z union instead. The same thing happened at jetBlue a few months ago.

The people and local workers make up the union. If the union is sucking, its because the members are being lazy and not hands on enough.

None of us negotiated our contract. It's the contract that sucks, and the union negotiated the contract. The other ground ops groups have TWU and their contract is way better.

Boof02671 wrote:

See Delta can do this and the FAs could do nothing about it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... olicy.html

You should read the last line of your own article, ding-dong

"But whatever comes of the Presidential Grievance, American Airlines (NASDAQ: AAL) today said it intends to unilaterally implement the new policy on Oct. 1"

So, even AA, with their unions, is still going to shove it down their throats..

If you are so desperate to pay money for someone to negotiate what Delta already gives it's workers, I'm sure UA and AA would love to hire you.

They can’t shove something down if they lose the arbitration

Boof02671 wrote:

They can’t shove something down if they lose the arbitration

Yeah and given the IAM’s track record on arbitrations the company often ultimately gets to do as they please. You at all familiar with the USAIR Airbus arbitration? Just like Menzies at SEA with Alaska the company ultimately prevailed and didn’t bring the work/jobs back in this case.

What's this I thought Delta employees were very content with their work environment.

klm617 wrote:

What's this I thought Delta employees were very content with their work environment.

They by and large are as many of the former NWA employees are leaving the company but like any organization there are always people who are discontented.

Speaking as someone who works in an office full of former NWA employees, the vast majority are quite happy with how things are and don't want a union. We've been treated very well and morale is good.