It appears that Southwest is grounding quite a few airplanes in response to finding weight and balance problems while they are under the department of transportation investigation.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... yptr=yahoo

Sloppy….what else will be coming out? They didn't inspect their fan blades until forced to by the FAA.

They grounded 66 airplanes, but yet only canceled 30 flights? How is that possible?

BC77008 wrote:

They grounded 66 airplanes, but yet only canceled 30 flights? How is that possible?

Peak summer is over. There's slack in the fleet now.

And this is a surprise to no one. WN has skirted rules and had cozy realtionship with the FAA people that were supposed to safeguarding the public. It was only a matter of time. Perhaps peeling the onion will reveal a lot more. Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

mcdu wrote:

And this is a surprise to no one. WN has skirted rules and had cozy realtionship with the FAA people that were supposed to safeguarding the public. It was only a matter of time. Perhaps peeling the onion will reveal a lot more. Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

No other carrier has ever had a discrepancy with aircraft weights that was so minor it was corrected within hours? We know you hate WN, but come on.

adamblang wrote:

BC77008 wrote:

They grounded 66 airplanes, but yet only canceled 30 flights? How is that possible?

Peak summer is over. There's slack in the fleet now.

Peak summer usually tends to run through labor day.

Most likely they consolidated frequencies, and up-gauged some flights to the 800.

Cubsrule wrote:

mcdu wrote:

And this is a surprise to no one. WN has skirted rules and had cozy realtionship with the FAA people that were supposed to safeguarding the public. It was only a matter of time. Perhaps peeling the onion will reveal a lot more. Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

No other carrier has ever had a discrepancy with aircraft weights that was so minor it was corrected within hours? We know you hate WN, but come on.

Has there been another airline that had to ground 60 planes for a weight and balance discrepancy?

Always wondered how they knew they were in CG with open seating? Maybe the FAA is finally asking the question.

mcdu wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

No other carrier has ever had a discrepancy with aircraft weights that was so minor it was corrected within hours? We know you hate WN, but come on.

Has there been another airline that had to ground 60 planes for a weight and balance discrepancy?

Always wondered how they knew they were in CG with open seating? Maybe the FAA is finally asking the question.

You've got to be kidding. What did any airline do before assigned seating was automated in the late '70s?

MO11 wrote:

mcdu wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

No other carrier has ever had a discrepancy with aircraft weights that was so minor it was corrected within hours? We know you hate WN, but come on.

Has there been another airline that had to ground 60 planes for a weight and balance discrepancy?

Always wondered how they knew they were in CG with open seating? Maybe the FAA is finally asking the question.

You've got to be kidding. What did any airline do before assigned seating was automated in the late '70s?

All sorts of airlines, even those with assigned seating, hand count passengers in various rows; several regionals (including some who operate for MCDU's beloved UA) stocked or stock preprinted pads of paper for this purpose.

adamblang wrote:

BC77008 wrote:

They grounded 66 airplanes, but yet only canceled 30 flights? How is that possible?

Peak summer is over. There's slack in the fleet now.

Not even close. Peak summer is..... peaking

mcdu wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

mcdu wrote:

And this is a surprise to no one. WN has skirted rules and had cozy realtionship with the FAA people that were supposed to safeguarding the public. It was only a matter of time. Perhaps peeling the onion will reveal a lot more. Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

No other carrier has ever had a discrepancy with aircraft weights that was so minor it was corrected within hours? We know you hate WN, but come on.

Has there been another airline that had to ground 60 planes for a weight and balance discrepancy?

Always wondered how they knew they were in CG with open seating? Maybe the FAA is finally asking the question.

You just block off certain rows when flights are too empty. Not really any different whether allocated or not.

Did any of you read the article?
It apparently happened last week and the planes were cleared to fly after an overnight investigation.
Though I do agree they are a mess. I am interested to see what happens with their ETOPs program.

I assume CG with non-assigned seats isn't a problem if the planes are nearly full. In that case there's not a lot of flexibility on weight distribution.

7673mech wrote:

Did any of you read the article?
It apparently happened last week and the planes were cleared to fly after an overnight investigation.

Are you kidding? Very few people on here completely read the attached articles before posting opinions.

mcdu wrote:

Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

Good one! For those not in the know, WN has in the past generously sent pizza to ATC and tower personnel.

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

7673mech wrote:

Did any of you read the article?
It apparently happened last week and the planes were cleared to fly after an overnight investigation.
Though I do agree they are a mess. I am interested to see what happens with their ETOPs program.

My thoughts exactly.

mcdu wrote:

And this is a surprise to no one. WN has skirted rules and had cozy realtionship with the FAA people that were supposed to safeguarding the public. It was only a matter of time. Perhaps peeling the onion will reveal a lot more. Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

Being allowed to "skirt" rules due to a "cozy" FAA relationship sounds more like a FAA problem rather than a WN one.

Super80Fan wrote:

The airline in the US we should be concerned about safety wise is not WN, it's not NK, and it isn't even G4, it's F9, AKA Dartboard Airlines. The sooner they cease operations and their executives jailed, the better for the traveling public and wherever poor place on the ground they crash into.

Did they hurt you? Can you tell us where Stretch the Great Blue Heron touched you?

Seriously though... Where's your proof?

hiflyeras wrote:

mcdu wrote:

Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

Good one! For those not in the know, WN has in the past generously sent pizza to ATC and tower personnel.

Were they getting anything in return? Or just being nice/trying to be friendly? I used to work for WN and there was quite a bit of doing nice things just because - no ROI, no quid pro quo, just taking care of suppliers and vendors and such because, at the end of the day, they are humans, and you work with some of them so much that they might as well be coworkers.

flyguy84 wrote:

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

^^THIS exactly. And yet somehow the cult following of “I need my 2 bags” folks keeps flying them because they only do it 1-3x a year, so I guess they don’t really care.

Until they improve the circus, the number of business folks who fly them will still remain low.

mm320cap wrote:

adamblang wrote:

BC77008 wrote:

They grounded 66 airplanes, but yet only canceled 30 flights? How is that possible?

Peak summer is over. There's slack in the fleet now.

Not even close. Peak summer is..... peaking

Not really. If you look at the history of WN's system wide fare sales (only two real sales a year), those sales typically start with dates beginning in the last half of August. Why would that be if summer travel is peaking.

WN has done this for over a decade, and did so this year, too.

joeblow10 wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

^^THIS exactly. And yet somehow the cult following of “I need my 2 bags” folks keeps flying them because they only do it 1-3x a year, so I guess they don’t really care.

Until they improve the circus, the number of business folks who fly them will still remain low.

Just wondering, when was the last time you flew WN? Based on your "business travel is low" statement I would assume more than 10 years ago....

hiflyeras wrote:

mcdu wrote:

Maybe the inspectors doing the deep dive don’t like pizza? (An industry inside joke)

Good one! For those not in the know, WN has in the past generously sent pizza to ATC and tower personnel.

No good deed goes unpunished.

swacle wrote:

joeblow10 wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

^^THIS exactly. And yet somehow the cult following of “I need my 2 bags” folks keeps flying them because they only do it 1-3x a year, so I guess they don’t really care.

Until they improve the circus, the number of business folks who fly them will still remain low.

Just wondering, when was the last time you flew WN? Based on your "business travel is low" statement I would assume more than 10 years ago....

I flew them on least 6-7 trips last year. In 2018? 1... and only because F9 cancelled my flight and I needed to get to SLC ASAP.

I am usually always flying in the evenings, and WN has so many delays that get worse throughout the day you can almost bet on evening flights being delayed. The last straw was when I had a 9pm flight that left after 1am because of mechanical issues IN DENVER, found it extremely hard to believe they couldn’t find a replacement aircraft.

By the way, WN has said they represent less than 5% of the corporate travel market... no way that number is climbing much higher in the short run. But, so much of domestic airline revenue is from leisure, so there isn’t a need for them to change...

hiflyeras wrote:

Sloppy….what else will be coming out? They didn't inspect their fan blades until forced to by the FAA.

Utterly bullshit.

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I’d like to see actual numbers, but being where I live every school district started school two weeks ago, I don’t see how travel hasn’t decreased from a month ago.

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I don't think so.
When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, I never was in public school before mid Sept. Somehow since then, although summer doesn't end until 9/21, the start date of schools in the US has crept earlier, now to mid-late August. So lots of families are no longer traveling even though it (celestially) is still mid-summer.

I have no idea why this bizarre change has occurred.

Well WN's peak summer schedule ended August 6th, so for them , that must have been the end of "peak season".

Chemist wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I don't think so.
When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, I never was in public school before mid Sept. Somehow since then, although summer doesn't end until 9/21, the start date of schools in the US has crept earlier, now to mid-late August. So lots of families are no longer traveling even though it (celestially) mid-summer.

I have no idea why this bizarre change has occurred.

Exactly my point. Thanks.

bob75013 wrote:

mm320cap wrote:

adamblang wrote:

Peak summer is over. There's slack in the fleet now.

Not even close. Peak summer is..... peaking

Not really. If you look at the history of WN's system wide fare sales (only two real sales a year), those sales typically start with dates beginning in the last half of August. Why would that be if summer travel is peaking.

WN has done this for over a decade, and did so this year, too.

Seat sales or not, in most of North America, the absolute peak for demand is July and August through to Labour Day. Need proof? Check out monthly pax stats for most North American airports (Florida and the likes of PSP aside) and see what are the busiest months of the year.

At the airport I work at, a pretty busy one at that, we, in coordination with the major airline operators here, started our construction last Monday, also an indicator that the summer schedules are starting to slow down.

Dominion301 wrote:

bob75013 wrote:

mm320cap wrote:

Not even close. Peak summer is..... peaking

Not really. If you look at the history of WN's system wide fare sales (only two real sales a year), those sales typically start with dates beginning in the last half of August. Why would that be if summer travel is peaking.

WN has done this for over a decade, and did so this year, too.

Seat sales or not, in most of North America, the absolute peak for demand is July and August through to Labour Day. Need proof? Check out monthly pax stats for most North American airports (Florida and the likes of PSP aside) and see what are the busiest months of the year.

I suspect that if we could see sales granularly week to week through those months, we'd see dropoff starting mid-August.

Chemist wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I don't think so.
When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, I never was in public school before mid Sept. Somehow since then, although summer doesn't end until 9/21, the start date of schools in the US has crept earlier, now to mid-late August. So lots of families are no longer traveling even though it (celestially) is still mid-summer.

I have no idea why this bizarre change has occurred.

Number of scheduled passenger flights (both ways) for the entire month:

July
ATL - 77,407
HOU - 11,068
JFK - 40,374
LAX - 58,238
MIA - 27,842
MCO - 27,980
OAK - 10,673
SFO - 39,302

August
ATL - 77,726
HOU - 10,625
JFK - 40,631
LAX - 57,985
MIA - 26,979
MCO - 26,130
OAK - 10,703
SFO - 40,155


WN system wide scheduled flights (both ways):
June - 119,494
July - 123,794
August - 118,492
September - 109,520


Total United States scheduled domestic flights (both ways):
June - 732,478
July - 756,781
August - 756,385
September - 686,367



*All numbers for 2018

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

Most carriers’ have the peak summer schedule through mid August only, with substantial schedule drawdowns and reductions occurring in steps from mid August to early September.

Peak summer schedules are either over, or are ending this week.

I didn’t realize WN or any major US airline reduced their schedule during slow months.

afcjets wrote:

I didn’t realize WN or any major US airline reduced their schedule during slow months.

For all flights originating and/or arriving in the United States, the high and low months of 2018:

February - 731,248 scheduled passenger operations
July - 911,533 scheduled passenger operations

A difference of 24.7% from high to low season

Chemist wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I don't think so.
When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, I never was in public school before mid Sept. Somehow since then, although summer doesn't end until 9/21, the start date of schools in the US has crept earlier, now to mid-late August. So lots of families are no longer traveling even though it (celestially) is still mid-summer.

I have no idea why this bizarre change has occurred.

With the advent of the "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT" in 2002, standardized testing has been put in place in public schools across the country. So schools are looking to maximize the number of instructional days before the testing. Voila..early to mid-August school starts.

joeblow10 wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

^^THIS exactly. And yet somehow the cult following of “I need my 2 bags” folks keeps flying them because they only do it 1-3x a year, so I guess they don’t really care.

Until they improve the circus, the number of business folks who fly them will still remain low.

But this was an event that happened in the past, and we are learning about it now. To comment as fact that business flyers do not fly WN is a joke. Have you read their financial performance? Have you flown on a WN flight? It wasn't even accurate hyperbole 10 years ago, let alone today.

Read the article, this happened a week ago, no one noticed, on a site like this where people split hairs to flame airlines they don't like. I would describe that as a well run operation.

Chemist wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

I don't think so.
When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, I never was in public school before mid Sept. Somehow since then, although summer doesn't end until 9/21, the start date of schools in the US has crept earlier, now to mid-late August. So lots of families are no longer traveling even though it (celestially) is still mid-summer.

I have no idea why this bizarre change has occurred.

It's because schools, staff, teachers and administrators are evaluated based on standardised test scores and one strategy to raise test scores is to maximize the number of instruction days before the tests are given.

EA CO AS wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

We haven't hit Labor Day yet. Summer is still peaking.

Most carriers’ have the peak summer schedule through mid August only, with substantial schedule drawdowns and reductions occurring in steps from mid August to early September.

Peak summer schedules are either over, or are ending this week.

One caveat to my above post is I'm looking at it from a Canadian lens, where outside of Quebec, most students go back to school after Labour Day. Either way, August is still a peak month for most places, both Canada and the US.

airzona11 wrote:

joeblow10 wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

The entire Southwest operation has been a complete circus for the longest time...they can't get flights out on-time, many cancellations... They have become very unreliable. This is just another notch in their belt...

^^THIS exactly. And yet somehow the cult following of “I need my 2 bags” folks keeps flying them because they only do it 1-3x a year, so I guess they don’t really care.

Until they improve the circus, the number of business folks who fly them will still remain low.

But this was an event that happened in the past, and we are learning about it now. To comment as fact that business flyers do not fly WN is a joke. Have you read their financial performance? Have you flown on a WN flight? It wasn't even accurate hyperbole 10 years ago, let alone today.

Read the article, this happened a week ago, no one noticed, on a site like this where people split hairs to flame airlines they don't like. I would describe that as a well run operation.

WN has openly stated that ~35% of its pax are business folks. Is that number horrible? No, absolutely not. But it is well below their competitors...and there's a simple reason.

WN has an on-time problem. Sorry, that's an obvious one. The problem starts with scheduling far less time on the ground than their peers - and F9 is finding out the same thing. WN has at least gotten somewhat good at turning their planes around in 30-45 minutes (F9 has not at all) but the problem is when you schedule so little time, problems pile up.

Have you looked at WN block times in comparison to others on the same routes? It's insanity on some routes: BNA-MDW is blocked at 90 minutes gate to gate, when most every flight on FlightAware shows the gate to gate time is rarely under 90 minutes. Sure there are a few instances it's down at 80 or at like 87, but there isn't any slack at all. So what does that mean? Again, the problems begin to compound throughout the day. Add that in with the unrealistic turnaround times scheduled and voila! - on time performance drops. It also means when I'm making a connection on WN I'm usually sprinting to the next gate not only because of their boarding process, but because of the inevitable delays I usually come across.

Management has made it clear they have no choice. With the amount of flights they add, adding just a few minutes to block time and turnaround time would require dozens more aircraft, something WN can't do at the moment. They're in between a rock and a hard place and the problem won't be solving itself any time soon.

I stopped flying WN for the very reason I found their operation to be a giant circus, just as the other poster said. You're free to disagree - but yes, I've flown WN quite a bit, and refuse to do it later in the day, precisely because their on-time performance is a spectacle in itself.

But as I said in the follow up post, it doesn't matter. Like you said, they make their money through their niche and have a great % of leisure travel. But does that mean I don't think their operation is a circus? Not at all

Dominion301 wrote:

Seat sales or not, in most of North America, the absolute peak for demand is July and August through to Labour Day. Need proof? Check out monthly pax stats for most North American airports (Florida and the likes of PSP aside) and see what are the busiest months of the year.

Peak demand doesn't go all the way through Labor Day anymore because many school districts, particularly down South, start classes in mid-August. Dallas starts this year on Monday, August 20. Los Angeles started yesterday. Plus families aren't going to travel right up until the day before classes start given the need to shop for back-to-school items. WN has a larger portion of their network in markets where school starts earlier, so it does make sense that they'd already have reduced from peak flying by mid-August.

twincommander wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

The airline in the US we should be concerned about safety wise is not WN, it's not NK, and it isn't even G4, it's F9, AKA Dartboard Airlines. The sooner they cease operations and their executives jailed, the better for the traveling public and wherever poor place on the ground they crash into.

Did they hurt you? Can you tell us where Stretch the Great Blue Heron touched you?

Seriously though... Where's your proof?

Don’t bother. All he does is stir the pot and adds nothing.

Has it occurred to anyone here that it depends on WHERE you live in the US. In the South, schools tend to start earlier (some kids in Arizona went back in late July). In the Northern tier (Northwest, Midwest, and Northeast), schools tend to start closer to Labor Day. It all depends on where you live. Over the years, school calendars in the North have been adjusted to finish the first semester before the Christmas holidays (so that the kids can actually rest and relax).

joeblow10 wrote:

WN has openly stated that ~35% of its pax are business folks. Is that number horrible? No, absolutely not. But it is well below their competitors...and there's a simple reason.

WN has an on-time problem. Sorry, that's an obvious one. The problem starts with scheduling far less time on the ground than their peers - and F9 is finding out the same thing. WN has at least gotten somewhat good at turning their planes around in 30-45 minutes (F9 has not at all) but the problem is when you schedule so little time, problems pile up.

Is WN markedly worse than the legacies when regional operations are included? That does not seem to be the case generally.

And, WN often has nonstops where other carriers do not. If I take a nonstop that is 70 percent likely to be on time, I have a 70 percent chance of arriving on time. If I take a connecting flight on which both halves of the itinerary are 80 percent likely to be on time and the outcomes are independent of each other (a bit of a questionable assumption, I realize), I only have a 64 percent chance of arriving on time.

Most schools in SFO Bay Area started by Aug 20. My available travel time ended the first week of August. They have shortened the summer holiday to try to keep the child's brain engaged and repeat learning time down. Instructional time is measured down to the minute, they still attend the same amount of minutes but get extra time off over the school season, such as a half day every Thursday.

Cubsrule wrote:

Is WN markedly worse than the legacies when regional operations are included? That does not seem to be the case generally.

And, WN often has nonstops where other carriers do not. If I take a nonstop that is 70 percent likely to be on time, I have a 70 percent chance of arriving on time. If I take a connecting flight on which both halves of the itinerary are 80 percent likely to be on time and the outcomes are independent of each other (a bit of a questionable assumption, I realize), I only have a 64 percent chance of arriving on time.

A couple of the regionals really do have awful on-time numbers I'll totally admit, but when you look at mainline in months where the weather is generally not an easy excuse (September, October, etc.) the three ones I usually see towards the bottom are WN, F9, and B6 in that order. During the summer and heavy snow season, UA is definitely up there, but I attribute them more to weather than anything. VX had the same issue with weather in SFO.