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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:38 pm

vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Mostly their purchase of almost a quarter of the airline resulted in zero cost cutting efforts. Jet was hurting for years and the fact I cannot point to significant restructuring after the initial EY investment tells us the current management is resistant to change.


Lightsaber


Couldnt agree more. The rationale behind EY investment was to route long-haul thru Abu Dhabi. Let EY do the heavy 'capital' lifting whine 9W focuses on funneling long haul thru Abu Dhabi. Unfortunately, there are too many ego's in 9W. They (along with many posters here) saw this as benefitting EY but not 9W.

Except for a few non-stops to Europe like LHR and possibly a CDG/FRA/AMS, 9W could have moved their entire wide-body fleet to Abu Dhabi and focused on a single aircraft type to drive scale.

Even worse is to have your largest investor not benefitting from the investment, i.e. airline loosing money, not funneling pax, while the company you just bailed out found a new friends in DL/KLM.

Question to be seen, was this friendship with benefits?


Are you sure it was jet's ego or EY's ego? Before the stake sale , the plans were to refurbish the 777s and keep five of them with F for LHR flights while the other five without F , with 9 abreast Y for non stops to US . They had even planned BOM - EWR(daily) , JFK (4 weekly), BOS(3 weekly) and SFO once the 789s (planned to) come in 2017.

But what EY did .... neither helped 9W refurbish WBs (after all why would they let them , they have to show it to the public that only ME airlines can offer good products ) nor did they help 9W set up its own network and expand . They tried to hoard everything through AUH , forced 9W to cut domestic routes to use more 737s for AUH . Also they used 9W 77Ws to fly AUH- SFO,JFK etc and charged the same fare for both (their own product and also 9W's product) and no wonder that it led to negative perception of people about jet (of course who'll like to pay same fare for EY A380 F and 9W 777 F). With EY 9W was nothing but a feeder airline benefiting AUH .

Thus it was wise for jet to partner with AF-KL-DL . I wish after after this stake sale , the partnership with EY ends for good and all those loss making flights to AUH are withdrawn to increase domestic capacity.
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vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:36 pm

This was 9W’s thread/discussion.

EY and Hogan have been discussed separately. Having said that, EY has a few oil wells to back their bad ideas. NG only has SBI.

Yes I concur DL/KLM is a better partnership. In any case DL probably gives 2 hoots about BOM hub. Now that they are dominant at JFK/LGA they may appreciate value of a slot controlled airport more.

But if u really want to have a discussion on hubs, we can. DL has a record of shutting down/downsizing FRA, NRT, CVG and so forth. In terms of scale they were much bigger than BOM in their heyday.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:59 am

So this thread began weeks ago with PR lobbyists predicting the end of Jet Airways. Its been a month and the airline is still flying! Wonder what is going on?


binayak wrote:
Are you sure it was jet's ego or EY's ego? Before the stake sale , the plans were to refurbish the 777s and keep five of them with F for LHR flights while the other five without F , with 9 abreast Y for non stops to US . They had even planned BOM - EWR(daily) , JFK (4 weekly), BOS(3 weekly) and SFO once the 789s (planned to) come in 2017.

From what I have heard from an airline source, Jet Airways 77W's cannot fly nonstop to the US even with a 9 abreast seating. They opted for the lower MTOW option because their plan all along was to scissor hub out of LHR from destinations in India. An armada of 77W's flying from BOM, DEL, BLR, HYD, MAA, CCU through LHR to various points in the US. That didn't work out too well as LHR's slot costs were too prohibitive. The scissor hub plan has since shifted to BRU/AMS/CDG and so on. They are trying to figure out what will work! :) Air India on the other hand bet on non-stops to the US so bought the higher MTOW version. This kind of knocked the bottom off the plans 9W had for their 77W's.

The only route where their 77W's work for them is the LHR route where they have managed to create a kind of captive market. Otherwise their A330-300's are more than enough for all their international ops. Perhaps its time to retire the 77W's and replace them with A333? Considering the slack in their A330 fleet, it should certainly be possible.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 am

BawliBooch wrote:
From what I have heard from an airline source, Jet Airways 77W's cannot fly nonstop to the US even with a 9 abreast seating. They opted for the lower MTOW option because their plan all along was to scissor hub out of LHR from destinations in India. An armada of 77W's flying from BOM, DEL, BLR, HYD, MAA, CCU through LHR to various points in the US. That didn't work out too well as LHR's slot costs were too prohibitive. The scissor hub plan has since shifted to BRU/AMS/CDG and so on. They are trying to figure out what will work! :) Air India on the other hand bet on non-stops to the US so bought the higher MTOW version. This kind of knocked the bottom off the plans 9W had for their 77W's.


What I'd heard from jet airways employees is that if F. was removed and the total capacity was capped at 329-330, (low density but without F), those 77Ws could just do Mumbai to East Coast USA non stop and not further. That's why initially it was planned EWR, JFK, BOS.
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:39 am

BawliBooch wrote:
So this thread began weeks ago with PR lobbyists predicting the end of Jet Airways. Its been a month and the airline is still flying! Wonder what is going on?
.

What is going on? Per links earlier in this thread:
1. Late on salary. (Much unpaid)
2. Withholding commission to travel agents.
3. Late on lease payment.

So technically, at least by US standards, they failed.

Are they current on fuel?

See, by Western standards the airline would have been shut down when they missed payroll. VI seriously cannot understand how Indian companies can be allowed to do so. But they are and thus they have recovery time.

But this is why I didn't airline leases have larger escrow accounts. Meh...

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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:42 am

Add grounding aircraft and harvesting parts to your list
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alfa164
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:35 am

BawliBooch wrote:
So this thread began weeks ago with PR lobbyists predicting the end of Jet Airways. Its been a month and the airline is still flying! Wonder what is going on?


:checkmark: It reminds me of more than 40 years ago, when AA decided it wanted to force Braniff out of DFW... and dominate it themselves. Rumors of BI's impending demise... arm-twisting travel agents to avoid putting their clients on Braniff... telling their own passengers that, when an AA flight was delayed or cancelled, there was no BI flight with seats (but there was; I got that treatment once when my AA flight went out)... all in an attempt to destroy another airline's credibility and customer base.

Sadly, these tactics - like negative political ads - sometimes work. I hope not in this case.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:44 am

alfa164 wrote:

Sadly, these tactics - like negative political ads - sometimes work. I hope not in this case.


If you took the time to read through this thread you'd know Jet's troubles go much much beyond negative PR.
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:52 am

lightsaber wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
So this thread began weeks ago with PR lobbyists predicting the end of Jet Airways. Its been a month and the airline is still flying! Wonder what is going on?
.

What is going on? Per links earlier in this thread:
1. Late on salary. (Much unpaid)
2. Withholding commission to travel agents.
3. Late on lease payment.

So technically, at least by US standards, they failed.

Are they current on fuel?

See, by Western standards the airline would have been shut down when they missed payroll. VI seriously cannot understand how Indian companies can be allowed to do so. But they are and thus they have recovery time.

But this is why I didn't airline leases have larger escrow accounts. Meh...

Lightsaber


Not to mention, Lounge access to premium passengers has been stopped in BOM. They have huge outstanding fuel and airport charges too, but just pay enough to keep the services going for now.

And they also don't seem to be paying enough for their PR firms. :white:
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:40 am

unrave wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Sadly, these tactics - like negative political ads - sometimes work. I hope not in this case.

If you took the time to read through this thread you'd know Jet's troubles go much much beyond negative PR.


As a matter of face, I have read through this thread... but thank you for the advice anyway. There is no question that Jet is having difficult challenges.

And there is also no question that employees and/or agents of some of Jet's competitors are using scare tactics to try to further tarnish their possibilities. As I pointed out, I have seen these tactics before; they don't fool anyone who is familiar with them.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:01 am

alfa164 wrote:
And there is also no question that employees and/or agents of some of Jet's competitors are using scare tactics to try to further tarnish their possibilities. As I pointed out, I have seen these tactics before; they don't fool anyone who is familiar with them.

You mean the entire media ecosystem in India is on the payrolls of Jet's competitors working against Jet? That claim reaches the realm of absurdity.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:22 pm

Historically, Pilots in India earn a lot more than any other employees in the country, the assumption is they don't live hand to mouth like employees in the west. So, delaying part of salary will not cause major harm. BTW, vendors inability to pay reasonable salaries is also not a good sign, may not show up on airline book or news. Some may have developed western habits and underwater in debt. Newsworthy but not a widespread issue.

Didn't someone familiar with Indian travel agencies post the market holder withholds payments more than anyone else? Jet Airways delaying last year bonus, not a big deal. Sure it is bad publicity but TAs know business with which airline is better for them. They are not going to burn the bridges.

Almost every airline had missed or delay lease payments at some point or the other, I am sure the IFSD leader is doing a lot of jugglery with hot cash. All it takes is to miss one ball or invoice.

Just my opinion.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:23 pm

unrave wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
And there is also no question that employees and/or agents of some of Jet's competitors are using scare tactics to try to further tarnish their possibilities. As I pointed out, I have seen these tactics before; they don't fool anyone who is familiar with them.

You mean the entire media ecosystem in India is on the payrolls of Jet's competitors working against Jet? That claim reaches the realm of absurdity.


Has happened before. Can happen again.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:39 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
unrave wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
And there is also no question that employees and/or agents of some of Jet's competitors are using scare tactics to try to further tarnish their possibilities. As I pointed out, I have seen these tactics before; they don't fool anyone who is familiar with them.

You mean the entire media ecosystem in India is on the payrolls of Jet's competitors working against Jet? That claim reaches the realm of absurdity.


Has happened before. Can happen again.

In fact has been happening ! BTW much more than 60 days have passed after that "speculative " article published by almost all media channels and on the basis of which this thread started.
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:42 pm

BawliBooch wrote:

Has happened before. Can happen again.

Citation needed.
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:52 pm

binayak wrote:
In fact has been happening ! BTW much more than 60 days have passed after that "speculative " article published by almost all media channels and on the basis of which this thread started.


Jet Airways' cash troubles are anything but speculative though. The airline WILL go down if it doesn't raise cash.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:24 pm

binayak wrote:
In fact has been happening ! BTW much more than 60 days have passed after that "speculative " article published by almost all media channels and on the basis of which this thread started.


The goal is to generate enough bad news so people stop buying tickets or travel agents stop selling tickets, and the business goes down. Fortunately, that is not happening. And as long as there is revenue airline will survive.

The two worst run airlines are generating almost the same amount of revenue as the "well run" airline, with much less capacity.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:50 pm

9W announces frequency increases across its network from December 2018

Delhi – Bangkok Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Delhi – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Delhi – Kathmandu Increase from 3 to 4 daily
Mumbai – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Mumbai – Dubai Increase from 6 to 7 daily
Mumbai – Singapore Increase from 2 to 3 daily

They have cash for all the above plus the new BOM MAN flights ? What happened about BOM SYD nonstop that was supposed to be launched?
 
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:57 pm

behramjee wrote:
9W announces frequency increases across its network from December 2018

Delhi – Bangkok Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Delhi – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Delhi – Kathmandu Increase from 3 to 4 daily
Mumbai – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Mumbai – Dubai Increase from 6 to 7 daily
Mumbai – Singapore Increase from 2 to 3 daily

They have cash for all the above plus the new BOM MAN flights ? What happened about BOM SYD nonstop that was supposed to be launched?

SYD was never officially announced.
Interesting that gulf frequency is being increased. Looks like gulf from BOM /DEL is more attractive than secondary cities.
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
And as long as there is revenue airline will survive.


Do businesses work differently in Amreeka? Because here in India, a business that loses money will eventually have to shutdown unless it raises cash to cover losses.
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:11 pm

behramjee wrote:
9W announces frequency increases across its network from December 2018

They have cash for all the above plus the new BOM MAN flights ? What happened about BOM SYD nonstop that was supposed to be launched?


They have closed a number of Kerala-Gulf flights, so the net capacity addition is not much. Their source of funding for now seems to be deep discounted forward bookings and delayed payments including salaries (25% of September salary is yet to be paid. Not a word about October)
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm

A Net30 customer even with a couple of delayed payments is better than a Net45 customer on my cash flow.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:17 pm

vadodara wrote:
This was 9W’s thread/discussion.

EY and Hogan have been discussed separately. Having said that, EY has a few oil wells to back their bad ideas. NG only has SBI.

Yes I concur DL/KLM is a better partnership. In any case DL probably gives 2 hoots about BOM hub. Now that they are dominant at JFK/LGA they may appreciate value of a slot controlled airport more.

But if u really want to have a discussion on hubs, we can. DL has a record of shutting down/downsizing FRA, NRT, CVG and so forth. In terms of scale they were much bigger than BOM in their heyday.


Huh? I just don't understand how you are connecting the dots in your post. DL doesn't want to establish a DL hub at BOM like DL had at FRA, NRT. Those days are gone. DL absolutely wants to invest in airlines that have hubs in strong premium markets. BOM is that for India. That is why 9W is valuable to DL. If you look at what 9W is doing, they are cutting back on non hub P2P and moving to consolidate in BOM and DEL - shocker. The former DL employee who is now at 9W (I believe I am right about the person being from DL), is making 9W into a more traditional hub airline. IN fact I would take the opposite of your view - DL wants a strong hub at BOM (and probably only BOM unless DEL/BLR can be PROFITABLE) with 9W running key P2P flights on strong O&D or key international routes (say BLR-AMS or MAA-CDG). Look it opens more opportunities for Indigo and Spice in Kerala and other areas.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:22 pm

sibibom wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
So this thread began weeks ago with PR lobbyists predicting the end of Jet Airways. Its been a month and the airline is still flying! Wonder what is going on?
.

What is going on? Per links earlier in this thread:
1. Late on salary. (Much unpaid)
2. Withholding commission to travel agents.
3. Late on lease payment.

So technically, at least by US standards, they failed.

Are they current on fuel?

See, by Western standards the airline would have been shut down when they missed payroll. VI seriously cannot understand how Indian companies can be allowed to do so. But they are and thus they have recovery time.

But this is why I didn't airline leases have larger escrow accounts. Meh...

Lightsaber


Not to mention, Lounge access to premium passengers has been stopped in BOM. They have huge outstanding fuel and airport charges too, but just pay enough to keep the services going for now.

And they also don't seem to be paying enough for their PR firms. :white:

So.
1. Not paying salary timely. Basic labor laws ensure this (excluding highly compensated). By Western standards, this is bankrupt.
2. Withholding commission. Changing a contract unilaterally to salespeople is stupid.
3. Missed lease payments. In fact, we had a thread on how Boeing had to move Jet -8 orders from firm. In other words, normal leasing companies are not working with Her anymore.
4. Releasing pilots.
5. Grounding aircraft.
6. Parting aircraft, probably the most expensive way to get spares.
7. Outstanding airport fees
8. Outstanding fuel bills


Are they still advertising? Business that stops advertising go under.

This is a bankruptcy. The question is, can they remain an opperating entity.

Travel agents jump shop to shop. I cannot imagine one burned by Jet being willing to keep selling Jet.

I'd like to know how close they are to being a non performing asset.

Heck, I'd like to see the same information from AI.

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panamair
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:24 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The former DL employee who is now at 9W (I believe I am right about the person being from DL), is making 9W into a more traditional hub airline.


Yes, current 9W CEO Vinay Dube joined in August 2017 from DL where he was SVP-Asia Pacific
 
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:46 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
They opted for the lower MTOW option because their plan all along was to scissor hub out of LHR from destinations in India. An armada of 77W's flying from BOM, DEL, BLR, HYD, MAA, CCU through LHR to various points in the US. That didn't work out too well as LHR's slot costs were too prohibitive. The scissor hub plan has since shifted to BRU/AMS/CDG and so on. They are trying to figure out what will work! :) Air India on the other hand bet on non-stops to the US so bought the higher MTOW version. This kind of knocked the bottom off the plans 9W had for their 77W's.


9W have had their 77Ws for how long? 2008? So it has taken them 10 full years to "figure things out"? 8 if you count the move from BRU to AMS/CDG happened about 2 years ago?

AI started flying non-stop to USA only around 2012. Up to that point they were running their flights out of the FRA scissor hub. So that's 4 years before the "bottom got knocked out of 9W's plans". 9W did not do their due diligence on cost of slots at the poster child of slot constrained airports before committing to an "armada of 77Ws". And yet here we are debating PR hatchet jobs and singing paeans to NG's legendary fundraising. The first step to solving a problem is to recognize there is one.


CaliguyNYC wrote:
If you look at what 9W is doing, they are cutting back on non hub P2P and moving to consolidate in BOM and DEL - shocker. The former DL employee who is now at 9W (I believe I am right about the person being from DL), is making 9W into a more traditional hub airline. IN fact I would take the opposite of your view - DL wants a strong hub at BOM (and probably only BOM unless DEL/BLR can be PROFITABLE) with 9W running key P2P flights on strong O&D or key international routes (say BLR-AMS or MAA-CDG).


Agreed. Makes sense.
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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:56 pm

Maybe they should just get about 20 789's in dense config. and phase out their entire current WB fleet. But again they don't have cash to procure them. Maybe EY should lend them theirs since they themselves cutting back.
 
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:09 pm

avier wrote:
Maybe they should just get about 20 789's in dense config. and phase out their entire current WB fleet. But again they don't have cash to procure them. Maybe EY should lend them theirs since they themselves cutting back.


Having just 789s won't help. As against what many think, having single fleet type for int'l doesn't help because the flights done are of either different stage lengths or different demands.
At LHR for example, they can't get more slots so with existing slots jet has to use the larger 77W .
At routes like BLR AMS etc a333 is more economical than 789 . You can get good advantage of 789s if you fly ULH.
This article is quite interesting and tells why diverse widebodies fleet is necessary
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/aircraft ... dmond-rose
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vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:29 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
This was 9W’s thread/discussion.

EY and Hogan have been discussed separately. Having said that, EY has a few oil wells to back their bad ideas. NG only has SBI.

Yes I concur DL/KLM is a better partnership. In any case DL probably gives 2 hoots about BOM hub. Now that they are dominant at JFK/LGA they may appreciate value of a slot controlled airport more.

But if u really want to have a discussion on hubs, we can. DL has a record of shutting down/downsizing FRA, NRT, CVG and so forth. In terms of scale they were much bigger than BOM in their heyday.


Huh? I just don't understand how you are connecting the dots in your post. DL doesn't want to establish a DL hub at BOM like DL had at FRA, NRT. Those days are gone. DL absolutely wants to invest in airlines that have hubs in strong premium markets. BOM is that for India. That is why 9W is valuable to DL. If you look at what 9W is doing, they are cutting back on non hub P2P and moving to consolidate in BOM and DEL - shocker. The former DL employee who is now at 9W (I believe I am right about the person being from DL), is making 9W into a more traditional hub airline. IN fact I would take the opposite of your view - DL wants a strong hub at BOM (and probably only BOM unless DEL/BLR can be PROFITABLE) with 9W running key P2P flights on strong O&D or key international routes (say BLR-AMS or MAA-CDG). Look it opens more opportunities for Indigo and Spice in Kerala and other areas.


Sure, call it whatever you want.

DL has 1000 odd flights out of ATL. At AMS, it has non-stops to US from about 12-15 cities.

What sort of hub do u think will it run out of BOM?
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:22 am

So Jet airways has been running a fire sale of seats for the last few days and they have extended it by another couple of days. Te fact that the airline resorts to promotional fares during the busiest travel period in India should tell you a lot about the desperate cash crunch at the airline. This is straight from the playbook of SpiceJet in the months leading to its operational meltdown.
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:52 am

unrave wrote:
So Jet airways has been running a fire sale of seats for the last few days and they have extended it by another couple of days. Te fact that the airline resorts to promotional fares during the busiest travel period in India should tell you a lot about the desperate cash crunch at the airline. This is straight from the playbook of SpiceJet in the months leading to its operational meltdown.

I am under the impression we are still in the ramp up to busy season in India. Or is Jet Discounting December & January sales?

I personally do not see Jet opperating with the efficiency to attain premium last minute fares.

Which begs the question, are last minute fares in India still incredibly depressed? If so, that doesn't bode well.

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karan69
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:09 am

behramjee wrote:
9W announces frequency increases across its network from December 2018

Delhi – Bangkok Increase from 2 to 3 daily
Delhi – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Delhi – Kathmandu Increase from 3 to 4 daily
Mumbai – Doha Increase from 1 to 2 daily
Mumbai – Dubai Increase from 6 to 7 daily
Mumbai – Singapore Increase from 2 to 3 daily


Not sure about KTM and MAN, but DXB DOH , SIN and BKK all have bilaterals by seat count rather than frequency , so it seems they are simply maintaining seat count,

BOM -DXB 7th flight comes in place of the same slot as IXE - DXB so i assume ixe-DXB IS cancelled

BOM-DOH was a 330 service for quite some time so i assume the 2x 737 helps maintain count
same with BOM-SIN, 777 and 330 seatcount being compensated with additional 737s,

regards/

Karan
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:10 am

As long as 9W remains alive and keeps expanding as this thread clocks up the pages, I would say that there is more than meets the eye on this one.
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karan69
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:16 am

VTORD wrote:

9W have had their 77Ws for how long? 2008? So it has taken them 10 full years to "figure things out"? 8 if you count the move from BRU to AMS/CDG happened about 2 years ago?

AI started flying non-stop to USA only around 2012. Up to that point they were running their flights out of the FRA scissor hub. So that's 4 years before the "bottom got knocked out of 9W's plans". 9W did not do their due diligence on cost of slots at the poster child of slot constrained airports before committing to an "armada of 77Ws". And yet here we are debating PR hatchet jobs and singing paeans to NG's legendary fundraising. The first step to solving a problem is to recognize there is one.
e.


AI operated 77L ops on BOM DEL to JFK in 2007, 5 days before 9W started their BRU hub ops,

ofcourse the mounting losses made AI streamline ops to a single Daily BOM-EWR and DEL-JFK rather than having multiple non stops to a single point

Regards/

Karan
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:32 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
A Net30 customer even with a couple of delayed payments is better than a Net45 customer on my cash flow.

I wouldn't hire someone who makes this statement but how exactly is this relevant to this discussion again?
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:37 pm

Cannibalized aircraft at MAA (pics taken on Diwali)
Image

Image

The airline is still running so obviously everything is alright with it.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:38 pm

karan69 wrote:
AI operated 77L ops on BOM DEL to JFK in 2007, 5 days before 9W started their BRU hub ops,


I guess I stand corrected then...Thanks!
So did they run their JFK/EWR non-stops when they were running ORD-FRA-BOM and EWR-FRA-AMD?
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:44 pm

VTORD wrote:
karan69 wrote:
AI operated 77L ops on BOM DEL to JFK in 2007, 5 days before 9W started their BRU hub ops,


I guess I stand corrected then...Thanks!
So did they run their JFK/EWR non-stops when they were running ORD-FRA-BOM and EWR-FRA-AMD?

Yes they did (JFK not EWR) . It was alongside their FRA hub plans.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Wonder if their international partners are assisting, by funding / discounting overseas landing fees, fuel and accommodation for them? Overseas airports and fuel companies not known for their generosity.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:12 am

Jet seems to be chopping a number of Kerala - Gulf routes as part of its restructuring
https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... olidation/
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
maint123
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:02 pm

The drop in fuel prices could save them. I didn't go through the whole thread but what seems to be reason for their troubles ?
Are nonbudget airlines too expensive to operate in a Indian market which is highly price sensitive ?
But if I remember , a few years back their were some retrenchment attempts by Goel but were hampered by the local goon parties of Mumbai.
 
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:45 pm

maint123 wrote:
The drop in fuel prices could save them. I didn't go through the whole thread but what seems to be reason for their troubles ?
Are nonbudget airlines too expensive to operate in a Indian market which is highly price sensitive ?
But if I remember , a few years back their were some retrenchment attempts by Goel but were hampered by the local goon parties of Mumbai.

If you are talking about the time when jet fired 1900 cabin crew all of a sudden followed by Raj Thakeray entering and saving those sacked employees, then that happened years ago when the airline was in a much much worse situation and was too desperate to save cash .
Any ways the whole thing was done without any plans so the employees had to be taken back . It's after all a matter of 1900 people losing their job, most of whom were pursuing their graduation and thus, were not in a position to get such jobs elsewhere. Raj Thakeray did the right thing by forcing jet to take back the employees.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
Sindhuputra
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:18 pm

Wah Wah!
Jai Ho Raj Thackeray ... no politics in this forum but when local goons start dictating terms to corporate entities - does not say much of business climate.
That said - it is not jet airways or its shareholders responsibility to provide employment to 1900 people they do not need . Presume many were hired due to local goon politicians wanting them tk be hired in the first place .

Bombay and kolkata politicos don’t make it easy to run commercial operations .
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:22 pm

maint123 wrote:
The drop in fuel prices could save them. I didn't go through the whole thread but what seems to be reason for their troubles ?
Are nonbudget airlines too expensive to operate in a Indian market which is highly price sensitive ?
But if I remember , a few years back their were some retrenchment attempts by Goel but were hampered by the local goon parties of Mumbai.


Low ATF prices will definitely help because that is probably #1 cost, but continued revenue stream and diligent cost control will definitely save them.

Depends on which LCC you are talking about, Air India Express made a tiny, tiny profit even with fuel hike. Indigo's non-fuel cost is out of control, you don't need 100 new employees for every plane you add. Southwest still has 58 even with a fleet of 600.
 
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:48 pm

Sindhuputra wrote:
Wah Wah!
Jai Ho Raj Thackeray ... no politics in this forum but when local goons start dictating terms to corporate entities - does not say much of business climate.
That said - it is not jet airways or its shareholders responsibility to provide employment to 1900 people they do not need . Presume many were hired due to local goon politicians wanting them tk be hired in the first place .

Bombay and kolkata politicos don’t make it easy to run commercial operations .


I request you to look into the entire story before jumping into such conclusions. No employee at jet is hired due to "political reasons" . The 1900 people in this case consisted of those who had already served the airline for some time and good amount of them had nice performance history.
Imagine going to your office some day only to know you've been sacked for no mistake of yours and by a company who had themselves chosen you. Only then you'll understand how the situation becomes. None of those 1900 were children of any MP.
There might have been a miscommunication at the HR dept which led to this. To rationalize your staff costs, this isn't the way and will obviously attract protests and political pressure to take back your own loyal people .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:55 pm

maint123 wrote:
The drop in fuel prices could save them. I didn't go through the whole thread but what seems to be reason for their troubles ?
Are nonbudget airlines too expensive to operate in a Indian market which is highly price sensitive ?
But if I remember , a few years back their were some retrenchment attempts by Goel but were hampered by the local goon parties of Mumbai.


The beginning of their troubles can be traced back to mid 2000s when the double whammy of rise of LCCs and the drop in travel demand following the GFC put a wrench to their business plans. They did not post a profit until 2015 when fuel prices eased up. All the while they have been surviving on debt, cash from leasing out wide bodies and equity from Emirates. Fuel prices have gone up again, and they have nowhere to hide now. Drop in fuel prices might provide some respite but their major concern now is Rs 3,000 debt has to be repaid this year and no bank is willing to lend them a rupee.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:59 pm

binayak wrote:
Imagine going to your office some day only to know you've been sacked for no mistake of yours and by a company who had themselves chosen you.


Happens daily all over the world, including India.
India: World's fastest growing major economy. World's fastest growing aviation market.
 
maint123
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:08 pm

binayak wrote:
Sindhuputra wrote:
Wah Wah!
Jai Ho Raj Thackeray ... no politics in this forum but when local goons start dictating terms to corporate entities - does not say much of business climate.
That said - it is not jet airways or its shareholders responsibility to provide employment to 1900 people they do not need . Presume many were hired due to local goon politicians wanting them tk be hired in the first place .

Bombay and kolkata politicos don’t make it easy to run commercial operations .


I request you to look into the entire story before jumping into such conclusions. No employee at jet is hired due to "political reasons" . The 1900 people in this case consisted of those who had already served the airline for some time and good amount of them had nice performance history.
Imagine going to your office some day only to know you've been sacked for no mistake of yours and by a company who had themselves chosen you. Only then you'll understand how the situation becomes. None of those 1900 were children of any MP.
There might have been a miscommunication at the HR dept which led to this. To rationalize your staff costs, this isn't the way and will obviously attract protests and political pressure to take back your own loyal people .

Politicians are useless leeches so lets not defend them.
If private companies start operating at the directions of politicians , government will have to open permanent loan facilities for them like they have for air india.
Maybe jet would not be in the mess it finds itself now , being prevented from right sizing its work force.
 
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:10 pm

unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:
Imagine going to your office some day only to know you've been sacked for no mistake of yours and by a company who had themselves chosen you.


Happens daily all over the world, including India.


Yes I know that happens but not with 1900 at one go. However another poster thought that those 1900 were hired due to political reasons which is baseless and incorrect as I pointed in my post.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
AI
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Re: Jet Airways: reports cash running out

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:25 pm

Does anybody here know what the loads are on 9Ws new route BOM-MAN? They had increased the frequency from 4 to 5 times a week even before the inaugural flight due to positive bookings so hopefully they are doing well on this route.

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