777Mech
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Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:11 pm

From the good folks over at U.S. Army WTF moments; they report that Atlas 8601 had a hard landing at PSM and bent the fuselage. Unsure of the registration.

https://www.facebook.com/242181938605/p ... 463458606/
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:12 pm

N641GT
 
EK7777
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:18 pm

Seems to be N641GT (B763) according to FR24.
 
cbphoto
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:03 pm

Rumor is the Captain was doing OE (operating experience) and it was his first landing on the 767. Not the first 767 to bend that way either, hopefully she is repaired and flys again soon!
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NYPECO
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:13 pm

How do they repair a bent airplane?
 
BojamDelta
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:55 pm

Happened to an ANA 767 too didn't it?

Bo)am
 
cbphoto
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:28 pm

BojamDelta wrote:
Happened to an ANA 767 too didn't it?

Bo)am


Yup, ANA as well as Thompson had one in CUN some years back. It’s rare, but not unheard of in the 767 line.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
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MaxiAir
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:38 pm

this frame is already 26,5 years old, First Flight Feb 1992. Might be a candidate for the scrapman
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atcsundevil
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:03 am

NYPECO wrote:
How do they repair a bent airplane?

To put it simply: they don't.
 
Flaps
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:18 am

atcsundevil wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
How do they repair a bent airplane?

To put it simply: they don't.

Not this one anyway. Repair is more than the value of the aircraft.
 
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:28 am

Flaps wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
How do they repair a bent airplane?

To put it simply: they don't.

Not this one anyway. Repair is more than the value of the aircraft.


I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. The airplane would be worth over $10 Million. Stringers, frames and skin don’t cost that much to replace. As long as the gear is ok, insurance would cover the repairs rather than scrap it.
 
KICT
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:52 am

This is a fairly common theme with the 767. KLM and Royal Air Maroc also had nearly identical incidents.
viewtopic.php?t=540397
People are saying. Believe me.
 
m007j
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:58 am

Is there something about the structural design of the 767 that makes it more susceptible to fuselage bending on a hard landing? Oddly dangled main bogie perhaps?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:00 am

AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:07 am

During certification testing, Douglas broke the rear end off of a super 80. The plane was intended for SAS, but they wanted one that hadn’t been bent. Douglas kept it as an R&D frame after it was repaired.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
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Erebus
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:53 am

BojamDelta wrote:
Happened to an ANA 767 too didn't it?

Bo)am


Yep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw-aUVa3a0U

It was put back into service about 6 months later though.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:27 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
AMC has to feel just great that Atlas was training the pilot on a live segment with troops on board. Thrilled, I'm sure. Wouldn't a cargo 767 flight have been a better training platform? no wind. 25 mile visibility. Bent plane.


New hires are required to do an ocean crossing( usually two) to be signed off. The 767 doesn’t do many, if any, freight North Atlantic flights, so an AMC pax flight is always what they get. The blame isn’t the protocol. The blame rest squarely on the bottom of the barrel being dredged for recruits. If we could retain pilots with decent pay we wouldn’t already be at the point of hiring low time pilots with fresh commercial licenses.


Got it. And I agree with your analysis about hiring. But his very first landing in a 767? Particularly given that a lot of Atlas new hires are coming from airlines that don't even fly a 737, much less a widebody. They didn't give him a few domestic cargo hops before putting him on a live troop flight? I get that this happens all the time at major pax airlines, but, man, if you're AMC, with all the sensitivities they have, still stinging from the Arrow Air debacle decades later, do you think that as the customer they're not going to have anything to say about this? Maybe they blow it off. Bad luck. No reason to assume that the pilot should be able to land in New Hampshire on a clear morning with no wind without breaking the plane. But I would be curious. Certainly, if soldiers were badly injured or killed, the media, Congress, etc., would be completely up AMC's butt about "allowing" this.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:35 am

Whiplash6 wrote:

Not to pile on anymore to this story, but whether it was the first leg of training or the 5th was never mentioned. The real story is Atlas training problems from here forward.


Sorry, I was assuming as correct the report that this was the guy's first ever landing in a 767 outside of the sim, and that drove a lot of my thinking.
 
KICT
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:15 am

atcsundevil wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
How do they repair a bent airplane?

To put it simply: they don't.

Wrong.
http://www.nycaviation.com/2009/08/four ... plete/2733
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MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:48 am

Last I checked, Atlas didn't hire street captains. While they also have 747 flying and pilots can change equipment with seniority, there is a good chance this was an upgrading 767 FO. It may have been his first landing from the left seat but he likely had right seat landings in the 767.
 
777Mech
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:04 am

m007j wrote:
Is there something about the structural design of the 767 that makes it more susceptible to fuselage bending on a hard landing? Oddly dangled main bogie perhaps?


Could this have been just a flat landing? Seems like they just pushed the nose down hard after touchdown and caused it to buckle.

Wasn't there a video of the ANA incident years ago?
 
BAeRJ100
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:50 am

777Mech wrote:
Wasn't there a video of the ANA incident years ago?


Yes, the link was posted in reply #17.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:52 am

atcsundevil wrote:
NYPECO wrote:
How do they repair a bent airplane?

To put it simply: they don't.


Plenty of incidents where a bent plane has been repaired, Some 767s like the ANA linked above, Lion Air 739 in Surabaya and many more.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:00 am

It came out 10 years before airframe structural design was perfected by the A320-200 in 1988. I'm not surprised the 767 has this flaw.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:09 am

1989worstyear wrote:
It came out 10 years before airframe structural design was perfected by the A320-200 in 1988. I'm not surprised the 767 has this flaw.

Curious as to what Airbus did to perfect the design? Is it stronger in some way or just better designed?
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1989worstyear
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:13 am

TOGA10 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
It came out 10 years before airframe structural design was perfected by the A320-200 in 1988. I'm not surprised the 767 has this flaw.

Curious as to what Airbus did to perfect the design? Is it stronger in some way or just better designed?


Timing actually. OEM's simply hadn't figured out how to make a robust airframe before Q4 1988 due to the lack of computer power and knowhow.

For instance, if you compare a 737ng or A320 with a 757 or DC-8, it's like night and day technology wise. 1988 is the key year!
Last edited by 1989worstyear on Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:25 am

Although unconfirmed, the FO was doing their first landing on the 767 after less than 2 years at a regional airline. Atlas has been known lately for very high turnover... Their captains probably make less than a 2nd year Delta FO and experience there is draining rapidly due to poor employee relations.
 
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747classic
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:30 am

KICT wrote:
This is a fairly common theme with the 767. KLM and Royal Air Maroc also had nearly identical incidents.
viewtopic.php?t=540397


AFAIK no KLM 767 was ever involved in this kind of incident ?
.
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speedbird52
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:45 am

cbphoto wrote:
Rumor is the Captain was doing OE (operating experience) and it was his first landing on the 767. Not the first 767 to bend that way either, hopefully she is repaired and flys again soon!

Why is he a captain on an aircraft he never landed before?
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DL_Mech
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:14 am

747classic wrote:
KICT wrote:
This is a fairly common theme with the 767. KLM and Royal Air Maroc also had nearly identical incidents.
viewtopic.php?t=540397


AFAIK no KLM 767 was ever involved in this kind of incident ?
.


I think this photoshopped Asiana 767 (HL7264) image used in the Boeing Airliner magazine makes people think of KLM.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920116-0

Image
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Flanker7
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:58 am

747classic wrote:
KICT wrote:
This is a fairly common theme with the 767. KLM and Royal Air Maroc also had nearly identical incidents.
viewtopic.php?t=540397


AFAIK no KLM 767 was ever involved in this kind of incident ?
.

True they have never been involved in such incidents.
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caaardiff
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:08 am

Thomson/First Choice had a hard landing at Bristol (BRS) in 2010 which took the aircraft out of service for several months, but was repaired. The same aircraft had already suffered damage with Vietnam Airlines before that.
 
brindabella
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:40 am

speedbird52 wrote:
cbphoto wrote:
Rumor is the Captain was doing OE (operating experience) and it was his first landing on the 767. Not the first 767 to bend that way either, hopefully she is repaired and flys again soon!

Why is he a captain on an aircraft he never landed before?


* sounds like windshear to me.
* the Trainee Captain would have been flying with a Training Captain in the RHS
* who was in command and would be expected to take over if the Trainee got into bother.
* so I rather expect the Training Captain has some nasty questions to answer.
:worried:
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:44 am

Skyservice Bent a 767 in PUJ. C-GJMC. We just introduced the 767. maybe by a few weeks at most. Sat in PUJ for months. Even built a Tarmac to repair the 767 down there. Never did come back to Skyservice Fleet, after repairs it went back to Thomas cook / My Travel. Crews refused to fly it for a spell. Boeing said it was the worst damage they had seen on this type of landing.
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reltney
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:05 am

Lighten up non pilots The quality of the simulator allows full type ratings on the airplane without ever getting in the plane. So to scare the pants off the fearful.....my first flight as an F/O a major airline had many firsts. It was my first preflight, first time starting the real engines, first takeoff in the plane, also the first landing. I remember it well. The MD-80 was full and I flew a back course localizer approach. First time for that too. The touchdown was soooo smooth. Then again my touchdown on my first 767-200 landing which was in Boston was so smooth the auto spoilers would not deploy. First 727 landing was a greaser. ALL my landings in the 2 years on the 747 were glass smooth and the first one was with a full load and close to max landing weight. All but the 727 first landing were with full passengers . First Capt landing was silk smooth. My wife was in the back for that and also remarked how great it was.
Been done that way for years and not going to change....


My worst landings were usually in calm winds and in one case the cargo weight was double what the manifest said so the approach speeds were wrong and when it came time to flare, the plane was quite unresponsive. Even after feeling something a bit wrong, we added 10kts and still were slow. We had the cargo load audited and found the problem .
BEST reply from a passenger after a “firm touchdown” was in a heavy New York accent and said,” you know something, you land like my daughter parks!” What a hoot! Laughed for days...
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Boof02671
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:25 pm

There has been millions of 767s landings and you post four incidents and claim it’s a widespread problem, the data proves otherwise.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:58 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
There has been millions of 767s landings and you post four incidents and claim it’s a widespread problem, the data proves otherwise.

I don't think it is a problem, but it still is fascinating!

Lightsaber
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:05 pm

I believe a Royal Air Maroc 767 had to be reskinnned and have the structure repaired after a hard landing. It took 4 months to repair.

Image

One of the issues is that spare frames and stringers don’t exist. These structural parts need to be fabricated at have 2-3 month lead times.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:11 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
It came out 10 years before airframe structural design was perfected by the A320-200 in 1988. I'm not surprised the 767 has this flaw.

Curious as to what Airbus did to perfect the design? Is it stronger in some way or just better designed?


Timing actually. OEM's simply hadn't figured out how to make a robust airframe before Q4 1988 due to the lack of computer power and knowhow.

For instance, if you compare a 737ng or A320 with a 757 or DC-8, it's like night and day technology wise. 1988 is the key year!


I caution you against saying any structural design was perfected. There is constant improvement to the analysis models being used. If the A320 design was perfect, there wouldn’t be 7 structural Airworthiness Directives released so far this year alone. The number of structural ADs coming out on every frame shows that the engineering design process continues to find areas where cracks form and must be addressed. From a damage tolerance perspective, every design will eventually crack and fail. The question is whether or not that point is after the limit of validity (plus safety factor) of the airplane or not.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:35 pm

It's a weak part of the plane in the 767-300 design.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:46 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe a Royal Air Maroc 767 had to be reskinnned and have the structure repaired after a hard landing. It took 4 months to repair.

Image

One of the issues is that spare frames and stringers don’t exist. These structural parts need to be fabricated at have 2-3 month lead times.

The 767 is still in production, lead times shouldn’t be an issue.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:16 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Plenty of incidents where a bent plane has been repaired, Some 767s like the ANA linked above, Lion Air 739 in Surabaya and many more.

I was referring to this aircraft, not a generality. This aircraft won't be fixed.

KICT wrote:

Again, I was only referring to this aircraft, but thanks for providing a completely unrelated example from a decade ago :roll:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:17 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe a Royal Air Maroc 767 had to be reskinnned and have the structure repaired after a hard landing. It took 4 months to repair.

Image

One of the issues is that spare frames and stringers don’t exist. These structural parts need to be fabricated at have 2-3 month lead times.

The 767 is still in production, lead times shouldn’t be an issue.

It will still likely take months to get all the new thanks to lean production. :duck:

Unfortunately, I'm serious. However, from scrapped frames there will be no issue... :scratchchin:
For this old of an airframe, I expect a mix of new and used parts to be used for the repair.

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Dalmd88
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe a Royal Air Maroc 767 had to be reskinnned and have the structure repaired after a hard landing. It took 4 months to repair.

Image

One of the issues is that spare frames and stringers don’t exist. These structural parts need to be fabricated at have 2-3 month lead times.

The 767 is still in production, lead times shouldn’t be an issue.

It will still likely take months to get all the new thanks to lean production. :duck:

Unfortunately, I'm serious. However, from scrapped frames there will be no issue... :scratchchin:
For this old of an airframe, I expect a mix of new and used parts to be used for the repair.

Lightsaber

I doubt there will be a single part from a scrapped airplane used if it gets repaired. I've done sheetmetal work for almost 30 years. Used structural parts just don't work. The holes for the fasteners have to be match drilled on all the parts. Skin panels, stringers, frames all have to be new parts. Likely new stringer sections will get spliced in. The material is pretty cheap on the cost of the project. The labor is the killer. It takes a lot of time to gain access and then do the repairs.

Now if it was a door or other removable part, then the part would come from a scrapped airplane.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:33 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The 767 is still in production, lead times shouldn’t be an issue.

It will still likely take months to get all the new thanks to lean production. :duck:

Unfortunately, I'm serious. However, from scrapped frames there will be no issue... :scratchchin:
For this old of an airframe, I expect a mix of new and used parts to be used for the repair.

Lightsaber

I doubt there will be a single part from a scrapped airplane used if it gets repaired. I've done sheetmetal work for almost 30 years. Used structural parts just don't work. The holes for the fasteners have to be match drilled on all the parts. Skin panels, stringers, frames all have to be new parts. Likely new stringer sections will get spliced in. The material is pretty cheap on the cost of the project. The labor is the killer. It takes a lot of time to gain access and then do the repairs.

Now if it was a door or other removable part, then the part would come from a scrapped airplane.[/quote]
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe a Royal Air Maroc 767 had to be reskinnned and have the structure repaired after a hard landing. It took 4 months to repair.

Image

One of the issues is that spare frames and stringers don’t exist. These structural parts need to be fabricated at have 2-3 month lead times.

The 767 is still in production, lead times shouldn’t be an issue.

It will still likely take months to get all the new thanks to lean production. :duck:

Unfortunately, I'm serious. However, from scrapped frames there will be no issue... :scratchchin:
For this old of an airframe, I expect a mix of new and used parts to be used for the repair.

Lightsaber


Correct there aren’t frames, stringers, skin etc laying around that can be pulled from production. Primary structure is almost never robbed from production to support spare part needs. It simply doesn’t work to remove structure that has already been drilled. Lean production methods don’t have long flow time between when a part such as a stringer is fabricated to when it is installed on the next higher assembly. The good news is the supply chain still exists. The bad news is that part numbers have probably changed since this 25 year old airplane was originally produced, which requires additional engineering work.

As others said, drilling structure out from one airplane and installing on another is almost impossible to make workeable. The condition of those used parts isn’t known so the engineering analysis is going to get very very conservative. There is no point to installing structure that the engineers have to assume is filled with cracks and about the strength of a block of cheese (exaggerating for effect). Primary structure (load bearing structure) wouldn’t work, but secondary structure might. Sometimes panels are removed or drilled out and reinstalled.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:45 pm

This thread clearly demonstrates the lack of airline IOE/qualification ops that one would find on the internet. The guidelines are clearly set in place by both the FAA and the respective operator. Worse landings than this have occurred with experienced crews. FedEx at NRT comes to mind.
 
covert
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:45 pm

I rode on this registration before. I believe it was from NTC (Victorville) maybe about 5 years ago. It looked pretty ratty, but I'm not a mechanic so I'm sure it's better than it looks to the untrained eye. I volunteered for baggage detail so I could be outside and close. It has changed hands many times from lessors and you can tell. There are little stickers and hints all over the plane from all of the several owners it's had.
none
 
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RobK
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:50 pm

airman99o wrote:
Skyservice Bent a 767 in PUJ. C-GJMC. We just introduced the 767. maybe by a few weeks at most. Sat in PUJ for months. Even built a Tarmac to repair the 767 down there. Never did come back to Skyservice Fleet, after repairs it went back to Thomas cook / My Travel. Crews refused to fly it for a spell. Boeing said it was the worst damage they had seen on this type of landing.


It was C-GLMC.

https://aviation-safety.net/photos/disp ... r=2&kind=C

Still operating today, 13 years later but now for Amazon :

 
airtran737
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Re: Atlas Air bends a 767

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:53 pm

I am not sure about the 767, but on the 747 at Atlas there is currently around a three-month wait for IOE. Imagine sitting at home after 7 weeks of hell in ground school and trying to stay fresh. Atlas is doing a poor job utilizing their crews when it comes to IOE. These guys should be sent back to the box to get a couple landings before they go to the line.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever

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