Announced by Delta not too long ago (by WestJet, too, I shouldn’t wonder).

Subject to regulatory approvals, JV will deepen existing codeshare arrangements and allow the two airlines to compete more effectively on transborder services. Combined reach under the JV will see the two carriers serving as much as 95% of transborder demand in terms of routes/ destinations served (not, obviously, on pax numbers).

https://news.delta.com/delta-and-westje ... nt-venture

I’ve been waiting for DL & WS to do this for some years, and I suppose with the KE relationship now seemingly on a better footing this was a logical next step. Well done to them both!

Every new JV agreement requires negotiations with ALPA, otherwise more restrictive language already in their contract stays in place.

Based on the lack of progress on the already-announced KE JV, it will be a while before the WestJet JV gets solidified.

Wonder if YQR-MSP can come back then...

I thought this was announced a while ago? Has there been further movement?

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Wonder if YQR-MSP can come back then...

Seems like a logical Q400 route with a JV in place. I’d love to see YOW-ATL return too.

Sort of embarrassing to misspell "Ottawa" in the infographic contained in the press release, though. D'oh!

tphuang wrote:

I thought this was announced a while ago? Has there been further movement?

Click on the link...

The agreement has been signed, MOU announced in December 2017.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Wonder if YQR-MSP can come back then...

Almost certainly. Plus WS Encore has the lowest CASM of all the regionals in the combined DCI-WJ Encore/Link family. You probably will see them picking up routes from the Canadian prairie provinces to MSP (not only YQR but YXE, YWG and possibly even YQT).

ilovelamp wrote:

Every new JV agreement requires negotiations with ALPA, otherwise more restrictive language already in their contract stays in place.

Based on the lack of progress on the already-announced KE JV, it will be a while before the WestJet JV gets solidified.

DL-KE JV has been in effect since May 1st of this year.

JV = higher fares

hoons90 wrote:

ilovelamp wrote:

Every new JV agreement requires negotiations with ALPA, otherwise more restrictive language already in their contract stays in place.

Based on the lack of progress on the already-announced KE JV, it will be a while before the WestJet JV gets solidified.

DL-KE JV has been in effect since May 1st of this year.

“Solidified” in my post implies the ability to unleash the full potential of the JV. Regardless of the date of effectivity, Delta can only abide the restrictions in the labor agreement.

Each new JV triggers a set of individual negotiations. You can bet they will be drug out by both sides since the pilots have a contract due up by the end of 2019.

More flying that Delta can farm out to JV partners. Im sure their pilots are thrilled.

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Wonder if YQR-MSP can come back then...

Almost certainly. Plus WS Encore has the lowest CASM of all the regionals in the combined DCI-WJ Encore/Link family. You probably will see them picking up routes from the Canadian prairie provinces to MSP (not only YQR but YXE, YWG and possibly even YQT).

YWG is a high-fare but fairly busy route that mostly gets larger RJs and small mainline. I doubt they'd dump a Q400 on that one because it would be quite a downgrade.

But I could see YQR and YQT coming back. I remember when YQT was a Saab route in the NW days but today it doesn't have any transborder services at all. To get to the western U.S. from YQT, you can connect to some cities via YWG but even that coverage isn't that great. Otherwise right now you have to backtrack via YYZ. YQT is quite isolated as well, unlike many other Canadian border markets. Just to get to Duluth is a 3.5 hour drive and MSP is a 6 hour drive. So I think an MSP link with a WS codeshare and full reciprocal FF benefits would be a viable Q400 route.

Edit to add: MSP and YQT were first linked by North Central in the early 1960s (via DLH) although Republic dropped service there in 1980. I don't know when NW resumed the route as an MSP non-stop, but it was again discontinued in 2010 shortly after the DL merger, around the time the Saabs were removed from the fleet.

I now have to wonder if ICN-YYC will be announced anytime soon by Korean Air, as part of the DL-KE JV, where KE can also count on WS feed. This JV might also help WS build a TPAC network via ICN, whereby KE can help WS secure the appropriate slots. Then, when the Dreamliners for WS arrive, WS can take over YYC-ICN.

Bobloblaw wrote:

JV = higher fares

It can mean that in thin markets. However, lots of 2nd and 3rd tier airports in Canada need a transborder alternative to AC/UA. The example mentioned above: Regina.

I wonder if this could mean an additional trans border destination out of YHZ? Delta (or was it Air Canada?) used to fly an RJ seasonally YHZ-ATL...

Delta flew ATL-YHZ on Saturday only for 1-2 summers three or four years ago if I remember correctly. Delta is quite weak in YHZ at the moment.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I now have to wonder if ICN-YYC will be announced anytime soon by Korean Air, as part of the DL-KE JV, where KE can also count on WS feed. This JV might also help WS build a TPAC network via ICN, whereby KE can help WS secure the appropriate slots. Then, when the Dreamliners for WS arrive, WS can take over YYC-ICN.

I like the logic but I think WS is throwing up a smokescreen when it comes to B787 flying. First of all, the ten Dreamliners coming are not a lot. In the most productive scenario, they would have 10-15 European destinations, not all daily. If we are talking TPAC flying from Canada, it would take 1.5 airplanes to sustain a daily flight to Asia. With 10 aircraft coming between 2019 and 2022, I believe WS will be breaking them in to European flying. They’ll make all the noise about applying for China permits or show maps with Japan, Korea, Australia and NZ on it- but have you looked at yields for Asia. They are in the toilet. With a Euro route, you’ll get two flights per day ( one east and one west) out of the aircraft, and destinations like LON, CDG, FCO, AMS, MAN, GLA, DUB, EDI etc have long and successful track records for Canadian operators (not to mention numerous wanna-be’s, none of whom had anything remotely like WS’s network, reach, and backing). The Asian alternative would be 4-6 destinations (pick between Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland, Hong Kong, 2-3 mainland China destinations, Tokyo and ICN) BUT you’ve also sacrificed your European capabilities. And we haven’t begun to talk about India, DXB, or anywhere else on the globe WS might pull out of their hat. Not gonna happen until they start exercising options.

When the winter months come around, they’ll be aiming for deep South America and supplementing the B737 on heavier sun routes like CUN, MBJ, PUJ etc. It will take more than 10 787s for WS to sprinkle in Asia, as the demands it will put on their small fleet will be too much.

WassbiKhalifa wrote:

Delta flew ATL-YHZ on Saturday only for 1-2 summers three or four years ago if I remember correctly. Delta is quite weak in YHZ at the moment.

I was lucky enough to catch that YHZ-ATL service once while it was in existence. It was great. At that time DL was also doing DTW and LGA from YHZ. Now they are down to one CRJ a day to LGA and it's seasonal. However at the peak of their service at YHZ, the Canadian and US dollar were at par which makes a huge difference to how successful these small Canadian markets will be on transborder routes. Once the parity on the dollar disappeared, so did the majority of flights offered by US carriers in Halifax and other smallish Canadian cities.

dr1980 wrote:

I wonder if this could mean an additional trans border destination out of YHZ? Delta (or was it Air Canada?) used to fly an RJ seasonally YHZ-ATL...

I envision a stepped up presence for WS Encore with the JV, mostly on transborder routes below 500 nm. I think the demand is there for double daily YHZ-BOS, especially in the summer. You may see them doing some flying now done by the DCI carriers between DTW / LGA - Ontario/ Quebec destinations. Conversely the DCI carriers may move into more longer range routes on a regular basis, ie instead of summer YHZ ATL it could be year round in an E170. YYT might pick up a flight to a DL hub as their CRJs and Embraers are more capable. This is where WS’ lack of a true 70-100 seat jet is going to be painfully apparent. There is a significant gap between their Q400s and B73Gs, capacity and range-wise.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

JV = higher fares

It can mean that in thin markets. However, lots of 2nd and 3rd tier airports in Canada need a transborder alternative to AC/UA. The example mentioned above: Regina.

But WS isn't strong in many of those markets and certainly doesn't provide any connections beyond cities like Regina. I see ATL-YYC and ATL-YVR and if Q400 can fly YQR-MSP, then that too. But WS brings little to a market like ATL-YOW.

Bobloblaw wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

JV = higher fares

It can mean that in thin markets. However, lots of 2nd and 3rd tier airports in Canada need a transborder alternative to AC/UA. The example mentioned above: Regina.

But WS isn't strong in many of those markets and certainly doesn't provide any connections beyond cities like Regina. I see ATL-YYC and ATL-YVR and if Q400 can fly YQR-MSP, then that too. But WS brings little to a market like ATL-YOW.

Air Canada and United are far superior for trans-border flying. Bigger and better positioned hubs, ie EWR, ORD, SFO, LAX, YYZ, YUL, YVR that reach across the US, Canada, and offer worldwide connections. Give DL and WS some time to get it right.

Well here’s hoping the joint venture really opens up YQR. A gold mine if there ever was one. Possibilities are endless.

AC330 wrote:

WassbiKhalifa wrote:

Delta flew ATL-YHZ on Saturday only for 1-2 summers three or four years ago if I remember correctly. Delta is quite weak in YHZ at the moment.

I was lucky enough to catch that YHZ-ATL service once while it was in existence. It was great. At that time DL was also doing DTW and LGA from YHZ. Now they are down to one CRJ a day to LGA and it's seasonal. However at the peak of their service at YHZ, the Canadian and US dollar were at par which makes a huge difference to how successful these small Canadian markets will be on transborder routes. Once the parity on the dollar disappeared, so did the majority of flights offered by US carriers in Halifax and other smallish Canadian cities.

Yes I know about the dollar issue. It just sucks. My wife happens to be from YHZ and it's a pain for her to get home now.

Bobloblaw wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

JV = higher fares

It can mean that in thin markets. However, lots of 2nd and 3rd tier airports in Canada need a transborder alternative to AC/UA. The example mentioned above: Regina.

But WS isn't strong in many of those markets and certainly doesn't provide any connections beyond cities like Regina. I see ATL-YYC and ATL-YVR and if Q400 can fly YQR-MSP, then that too. But WS brings little to a market like ATL-YOW.

With a full JV WS can bring a lot to a market like YOW-ATL, like additional feed to ATL and a much lower cost with a Q400 on YOW-ATL than DL ever could with a CRJ. Loads were never the issue on DL's 2x daily YOW-ATL, it was costs when oil skyrocketed in 2008 and the subsequent draw down of CRJ fleets, especially DL's which is now confined almost exclusively to the under 500nm network.

ScottB wrote:

Sort of embarrassing to misspell "Ottawa" in the infographic contained in the press release, though. D'oh!

Looks like someone fixed it. Yeah, it's amazing how often the Capital is spelled Ottowa by either the clueless...or the not checked for typos by comms.

Dominion301 wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

It can mean that in thin markets. However, lots of 2nd and 3rd tier airports in Canada need a transborder alternative to AC/UA. The example mentioned above: Regina.

But WS isn't strong in many of those markets and certainly doesn't provide any connections beyond cities like Regina. I see ATL-YYC and ATL-YVR and if Q400 can fly YQR-MSP, then that too. But WS brings little to a market like ATL-YOW.

With a full JV WS can bring a lot to a market like YOW-ATL, like additional feed to ATL and a much lower cost with a Q400 on YOW-ATL than DL ever could with a CRJ. Loads were never the issue on DL's 2x daily YOW-ATL, it was costs when oil skyrocketed in 2008 and the subsequent draw down of CRJ fleets, especially DL's which is now confined almost exclusively to the under 500nm network.

ScottB wrote:

Sort of embarrassing to misspell "Ottawa" in the infographic contained in the press release, though. D'oh!

Looks like someone fixed it. Yeah, it's amazing how often the Capital is spelled Ottowa by either the clueless...or the not checked for typos by comms.

Welcome to a.net, the only place in the world where less competition is hailed as a good thing for consumer. If the vast majority of traffic on YOW-ATL are connection, they can just connect at someone else's hub. Why does every trip have to go through ATL? This JV first and foremost helps Delta. It does not help people flying between toronto and new york or any of these other high volume routes where more competition is always a good thing.

DeltaB717 wrote:

Subject to regulatory approvals, JV will deepen existing codeshare arrangements and allow the two airlines to compete more effectively on transborder services. Combined reach under the JV will see the two carriers serving as much as 95% of transborder demand in terms of routes/ destinations served (not, obviously, on pax numbers).

By, err, not competing with each other.

Airlineomics.

From internal reports passed along to me, both sides have agreed to the JV, it is only pending government approval. Talks have now begun between WS and AF/KLM for some form of relationship.

whywhyzee wrote:

From internal reports passed along to me, both sides have agreed to the JV, it is only pending government approval. Talks have now begun between WS and AF/KLM for some form of relationship.

WS appears headed for an eventual Skyteam hookup.

flyguy84 wrote:

More flying that Delta can farm out to JV partners. Im sure their pilots are thrilled.

Lol..why r people so upset at the brilliant things DL does? There is a reason they are the most admired US airline out there. Your bitterness and lack of reality take you very hard to even take seriously. I’m sure there is not one DL or Skyteam passenger really that upset about having to fly KE. I have taken a stop instead of a nonstop to utilize my mileage account. So will many other. It makes business sense..it’s nothing personal.

Dominion301 wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

From internal reports passed along to me, both sides have agreed to the JV, it is only pending government approval. Talks have now begun between WS and AF/KLM for some form of relationship.

WS appears headed for an eventual Skyteam hookup.

Whats the benefit of joining Skyteam? This deal gives Westjet 90% of the benefits. They get full FFP reciprocity and lounge access with Delta which is the airline they'd get the most value out of. If they want to form partnerships with the few other Skyteam carriers that might provide value, there's nothing stopping them. They can strike deals with the few Skyteam airlines that matter without actually having to pay all of that money to join Skyteam.

SkyTeam's CEO recently mentioned that they do not expect to have new members in the next year or two.

klakzky123 wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

From internal reports passed along to me, both sides have agreed to the JV, it is only pending government approval. Talks have now begun between WS and AF/KLM for some form of relationship.

WS appears headed for an eventual Skyteam hookup.

Whats the benefit of joining Skyteam? This deal gives Westjet 90% of the benefits. They get full FFP reciprocity and lounge access with Delta which is the airline they'd get the most value out of. If they want to form partnerships with the few other Skyteam carriers that might provide value, there's nothing stopping them. They can strike deals with the few Skyteam airlines that matter without actually having to pay all of that money to join Skyteam.

This. Also joining Sky Team would probably ruin the very deep relationship WS has with QF including reciprocal FF benefits.

flyguy84 wrote:

More flying that Delta can farm out to JV partners. Im sure their pilots are thrilled.

They're used to working for a virtual airline by now. No big deal unless their goal is to work their way up to the captain seat on longhaul widebody routes, especially TPAC, since those opportunities are becoming fewer and fewer every year.

A portion of travel for some itineraries may be on : Compass Airlines, Endeavor Air, Inc. ExpressJet Airlines, Inc., GoJet Airlines, Republic Airline, SkyWest, Aeroflot, Aeromexico, Air Europa, Air France, Airlinair, Air One, Air One City Liner, Alitalia, BritAir, China Airlines, China Eastern, China Southern, CSA Czech Airlines, KLM, Korean Airlines, Aerolíneas Argentinas; Austral Lineas Aereas dba Aerolíneas Argentinas, Aerolitoral dba Aeromexico Connect, Air One CityLiner dba Alitalia, CAIone Alitalia Express dba Alitalia, CAI Second, Aeromar, Brit Air dba Air France, Carpatair dba Alitalia, City Jet dba Air France, GOL Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines, Jet Airways, KLM CityHopper, Olympic Air, Hop! dba Air France, Privilege Style, Regional CAE dba Air France, Seaborne Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, SwiftAir, Transavia Airlines, Virgin Atlantic International, Aer Lingus dba Virgin Atlantic Little Red, Virgin Australia International, Virgin Australia Limited NZ dba Virgin Australia, VLM Airlines, WestJet, and WestJet Encore.

sixtyseven wrote:

Well here’s hoping the joint venture really opens up YQR. A gold mine if there ever was one. Possibilities are endless.

Agreed...this could be a good JV for a bunch of different parties (http://aeronauticsonline.com/delta-air-lines-and-westjet-confirm-transborder-joint-venture/)

I agree with some upthread comments. The Encore Q400's bring a multitude of possibilities on trans border city pairs.

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

When the winter months come around, they’ll be aiming for deep South America and supplementing the B737 on heavier sun routes like CUN, MBJ, PUJ etc. It will take more than 10 787s for WS to sprinkle in Asia, as the demands it will put on their small fleet will be too much.

I agree with what you said about Europe vs Asia, but deep South America kills aircraft utilization, as the plane would need to sit in GRU or GIG for over 10 hours for optimum connections back in Canada. With only a limited number of dreamliners, that is not an ideal continent for WS to serve. Better to leave it to its JV partner DL.

IPFreely wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

More flying that Delta can farm out to JV partners. Im sure their pilots are thrilled.

They're used to working for a virtual airline by now. No big deal unless their goal is to work their way up to the captain seat on longhaul widebody routes, especially TPAC, since those opportunities are becoming fewer and fewer every year.

Fewer and fewer every year? Your info is wack. Yes, their growth has been focused primarily in the domestic US the last several years because that’s where the revenue was. But guess what? International revenue is forecast to be higher than expected so talks seem to be pointing to a faster delivery timeline of ALL the A350s on order and the 330-900 NEOs.

The fact that the number of their top end jobs have gone down is a fallacy and used by other pilot groups to scare away rumors on their own properties of potential JVs. Done right and with the right negotiated balance by ALPA and Delta management, all sides can win in a strong JV. It’s not all doom and gloom.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

AirNovaBAe146 wrote:

When the winter months come around, they’ll be aiming for deep South America and supplementing the B737 on heavier sun routes like CUN, MBJ, PUJ etc. It will take more than 10 787s for WS to sprinkle in Asia, as the demands it will put on their small fleet will be too much.

I agree with what you said about Europe vs Asia, but deep South America kills aircraft utilization, as the plane would need to sit in GRU or GIG for over 10 hours for optimum connections back in Canada. With only a limited number of dreamliners, that is not an ideal continent for WS to serve. Better to leave it to its JV partner DL.

That does make sense. Could they operate an oddball schedule to those destinations? I recently was looking at flights to Asia and there are a couple carriers that seem to operate against the general trend, which is a late evening departure from North America and a mid-afternoon return (give or take a few hours). Evening flight down and daytime return anyone?

WS will have some time to figure it out, with their gradual deliveries between 2019 and 2021. I figure they’ll break them in between LGW and other Euro destinations. Then as they gain experience and familiarity with the 787, not to mention more global partners, they’ll branch out more. Who knows what will be the chic business destinations worldwide in 2022.

Really pulling for YYC-DTW at the very least. Opens up a plethora of routes for Business and Leisure, Detroiters may not have even been considering without a quick flow option.

toobz wrote:

flyguy84 wrote:

More flying that Delta can farm out to JV partners. Im sure their pilots are thrilled.

Lol..why r people so upset at the brilliant things DL does? There is a reason they are the most admired US airline out there. Your bitterness and lack of reality take you very hard to even take seriously. I’m sure there is not one DL or Skyteam passenger really that upset about having to fly KE. I have taken a stop instead of a nonstop to utilize my mileage account. So will many other. It makes business sense..it’s nothing personal.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "most admired" US airline (at least according to the WN fan club - and, in the interest of full disclosure, I could be placed in that category, considering that the few flights I've taken over the past few years have been exclusively on WN), but I would choose DL as my preferred choice among the US3 legacy carriers; "one of the most admired" might be a better way to phrase it in order to appease the a.net mob, but I digress...

That said, I'm certainly liking the DL/WS joint venture, seeing as I may be taking a few flights north of the border next year. Does it really add more to the table since DL and WS already have some level of f/f reciprocity? Or am I missing something here?

Does WS offer First class ? And if not, are they planning to do so ?
Seems that would be crucial for the JV to compete against AC.

Capn wrote:

Does WS offer First class ? And if not, are they planning to do so ?
Seems that would be crucial for the JV to compete against AC.

They begin retrofitting this fall, the seats themselves have begun to arrive at mx, installs should coincide with repaints into the new livery. Currently they are Y+/Y, the 737s are going to J/y+/y and the 787s will have full lie flat J, y+ and y. They are also building lounges at their hubs.

Thanks for the quick reply. That sounds like a great plan, also the clubs will make everything fairly seamless.
I think this is going to be very profitable for both airlinew and their employees.

Capn wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply. That sounds like a great plan, also the clubs will make everything fairly seamless.
I think this is going to be very profitable for both airlinew and their employees.

it's definitely good for DL. I'm not sure if it's as good for WS. For example, they lost their code share with AA as a result of this. Previously, I would sometimes book YYZ-LGA on WS in order to collect AA miles. Now, i'm not going to fly WS anymore.

Yeah but AA is going downhill and WS is headed upward, so, it would appear they are making the right choice, and you might still believe AA is what they once were?

Where they used to codeshare with BA/AA, I think this DL arrangement combined with a more extensive partnership with AF/KLM which is currently being negotiated gives them better access to markets that better suit their Canadian base.

AA is very strong on certain markets to Canada, but don't have the wide coverage that DL can offer. AA's strength to Canada is O/D, which WS can just as easily cover themselves.

They have their own services to London as it stands, so working with BA is of little gain compared to someone like KLM who opens up connections in Europe just as BA would, and additionally, amsterdam-canada which in itself is an absolutely massive market. YYZ-AMS alone is a ~700k pax annual market, and growing rapidly. Paris is also very popular to Canadians travelling for vacations, and supports ~10x daily flights nation wide during peak times.

whywhyzee wrote:

Where they used to codeshare with BA/AA, I think this DL arrangement combined with a more extensive partnership with AF/KLM which is currently being negotiated gives them better access to markets that better suit their Canadian base.

AA is very strong on certain markets to Canada, but don't have the wide coverage that DL can offer. AA's strength to Canada is O/D, which WS can just as easily cover themselves.

They have their own services to London as it stands, so working with BA is of little gain compared to someone like KLM who opens up connections in Europe just as BA would, and additionally, amsterdam-canada which in itself is an absolutely massive market. YYZ-AMS alone is a ~700k pax annual market, and growing rapidly. Paris is also very popular to Canadians travelling for vacations, and supports ~10x daily flights nation wide during peak times.

O&d to London is much greater than Amsterdam and Paris out of Calgary and Toronto. Ws is tiny in Quebec. And more importantly, there is far more business demand there. How many Toronto firms have offices in Amsterdam vs london?
There is a difference in yield between business traffic and leisure traffic.

A partnership with ba is for tatl is for more valuable imo.

ACDC8 wrote:

tphuang wrote:

they lost their code share with AA as a result of this.

Not everyone (including me) is upset about that

I am not saying many people are upset, but rather a one word flyer like myself wouldn’t bother with ws anymore. I will just go back to flying ac on routes that aa doesn’t have good coverage on.

tphuang wrote:

they lost their code share with AA as a result of this.

Not everyone (including me) is upset about that