gennadius wrote:

Stitch wrote:

Denver772 wrote:

My apologies for the ignorant question, long time reader, very rare poster here -- what is a UFO in terms of orders of aircraft? I tried Googling but obviously was getting a lot of results of the other kind of UFO. Thank you!

It's an order placed by an "Unidentified Customer". In other words, a customer who does not as yet want their name to be revealed, but who has signed a contract for a firm order which Boeing (and Airbus) are required to report for financial reasons.

It is also commonly used when China (specifically, the China Aviation Supplies Holding Company) places an order, but has not yet assigned individual airframes to their respective Chinese carriers (like the 10 frame A350XWB order which was originally placed as a UFO and was identified today as going to Sichuan Airlines).

I agree with what you have written, Stitch. To go one step further, due to the nature of the order being on the books, I always took it to stand for Unidentified Firm Order.

StTim wrote:

EvanWSFO wrote:

travelhound wrote:

This isn't good news!

Because....????

I suppose the rationale is that this order makes no difference to the order book.

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

tom90 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

Did Volga-dnepr Group commit to 16 or so 748F a couple of years back ?

tom90 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

Did Volga-dnepr Group commit to 16 or so 748F a couple of years back ?

TC957 wrote:

Was speaking with a captain on the CargoLogic 748F today at the show and he said AirBridge Cargo could this week confirm some or all of the 20 MoU's they have for the 748F since the last Paris show.

jagraham wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

MajMattMason wrote:

Any ideas as to when DHL will start receiving these tails??

Very soon, the 1st 4 will be delivered in 2019.

https://www.dpdhl.com/en/media-relation ... hters.html

2019 first delivery is interesting considering the order backlog and 6 per year production rate: From Feb 2018

The new UPS order raises Boeing’s backlog for the 747-8F to 24, which is enough to fill all available production slots over the next four years at current rates
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-445447/

Guess Boeing has to up the rate . .

Momo1435 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group is a private company with a very good long term relationship with Boeing. So I doubt that politics plays a big role in their orders.

The 5 747s are still part of their older commitment (Volga-dnepr Group = AirBridgeCargo = CargoLogic) . The 777s are new and will most likely be slowly firmed up over the next couple of years, just like they did with their 747s.

frigatebird wrote:

tom90 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

Did Volga-dnepr Group commit to 16 or so 748F a couple of years back ?

No, that was Airbridge Cargo:

TC957 wrote:

Was speaking with a captain on the CargoLogic 748F today at the show and he said AirBridge Cargo could this week confirm some or all of the 20 MoU's they have for the 748F since the last Paris show.

But the captain on the Cargologic 748F might have confused these two just like you did

qf789 wrote:

Belavia signs a deal for 4 737MAX8 plus 2 options, will be leased by Air Lease Corp

https://twitter.com/AvGeekJames/status/ ... 5018259456

StTim wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Belavia signs a deal for 4 737MAX8 plus 2 options, will be leased by Air Lease Corp

https://twitter.com/AvGeekJames/status/ ... 5018259456

So do these come from orders ALC have already placed - or are they new orders?

HighFlyerIT wrote:

AirBridge Cargo is a subsidiary of Volga-Dnepr, so no confusion.

juliuswong wrote:

StTim wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Belavia signs a deal for 4 737MAX8 plus 2 options, will be leased by Air Lease Corp

https://twitter.com/AvGeekJames/status/ ... 5018259456

So do these come from orders ALC have already placed - or are they new orders?

Lease placement from ALC's previous order. https://twitter.com/thatjohn/status/1019154769389195264

travelhound wrote:

Only issue with that is the person who made the post speculated in doing so.

My reasoning behind he post revolved around the United 767 replacement cycle and the number of aircraft required.

For me it was a little odd that an airline requiring so many aircraft in the 787 / A330 size bracket would only order four aircraft of a type they already have in service.

This could suggest a number of scenarios.

1. The 787 is only suitable for replacing a small number of 767's in the United airlines fleet.
2. The next 767 replacement order will be a pure competition between the two OEM's, even though United already have a relatively large installed fleet of 787's.
3. United have already decided on the A330 / A350 as the most likely replacement for the 767 / 777.

In reality an order for four aircraft could simply be a bi-product of strict capital management. I.e. United have secured 787 delivery slots, so there is no need to convert an option into an order (and pay deposits) until such time the delivery slot options are about to expire.

qf789 wrote:

ALC orders 3 787-9's and 75 737MAX

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 5189677056

frigatebird wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group purchases 5 748F and commits to 29 777F

https://twitter.com/Enrique77W/status/1 ... 6304758784

Whoa. That's a big one, must be one of the biggest freighter orders ever (when firmed)?
It's very tempting to say something about politics between USA and Russia now, but let's leave that to another thread.

fun2fly wrote:

travelhound wrote:

Only issue with that is the person who made the post speculated in doing so.

My reasoning behind he post revolved around the United 767 replacement cycle and the number of aircraft required.

For me it was a little odd that an airline requiring so many aircraft in the 787 / A330 size bracket would only order four aircraft of a type they already have in service.

This could suggest a number of scenarios.

1. The 787 is only suitable for replacing a small number of 767's in the United airlines fleet.
2. The next 767 replacement order will be a pure competition between the two OEM's, even though United already have a relatively large installed fleet of 787's.
3. United have already decided on the A330 / A350 as the most likely replacement for the 767 / 777.

In reality an order for four aircraft could simply be a bi-product of strict capital management. I.e. United have secured 787 delivery slots, so there is no need to convert an option into an order (and pay deposits) until such time the delivery slot options are about to expire.

I think it could be much simpler. There was a long rumored of UA getting 4x77W more. Could this just be a conversion of that order to a B789 after UA had been running both and saw the financial performance? Either way, we should know today if the rumors are true about an UA announcement.

LJ wrote:

We've three announcements to go. One with Primera Air (13:45) and two with undisclosed customers (11:30 and 15:00)

qf789 wrote:

Air Vistara to order 10 787-9’s

https://twitter.com/avgeekjames/status/ ... 46055?s=21

Matt6461 wrote:

Boeing says "up to ten." Isn't this just confirmation of the previously announced Vistara order that included options? https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/sta ... 2752672769

Matt6461 wrote:

qf789 wrote:

Air Vistara to order 10 787-9’s

https://twitter.com/avgeekjames/status/ ... 46055?s=21

Boeing says "up to ten." Isn't this just confirmation of the previously announced Vistara order that included options? https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/sta ... 2752672769

Momo1435 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group is a private company with a very good long term relationship with Boeing. So I doubt that politics plays a big role in their orders.

The 5 747s are still part of their older commitment (Volga-dnepr Group = AirBridgeCargo = CargoLogic) . The 777s are new and will most likely be slowly firmed up over the next couple of years, just like they did with their 747s.

Momo1435 wrote:

1 more deal, a small one, but still an order.

Boeing, Seacons Trading Announce Order for Boeing Business Jet MAX 7

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-07-17- ... -Jet-MAX-7

Momo1435 wrote:

1 more deal, a small one, but still an order.

Boeing, Seacons Trading Announce Order for Boeing Business Jet MAX 7

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2018-07-17- ... -Jet-MAX-7

gennadius wrote:

With respect to the 747-8F, I believe Volga had their original launch order of 5. They then ordered a singleton, which later was revealed to be the first of the 20 strong commitment turned MoU in the 2014/2015 air shows. The additional 7 of those that have been firmed over the years have been listed as under Air Bridge Cargo. So, if the firming of these 5 flows into that same commitment, they will be at 13, with a potential of 7 remaining orders.

Momo1435 wrote:

Day 2 orders

Volga-Dnepr Group: 5x 747-F (Firm) + 29x 777F (LoI)
Air Lease Corporation: 3x 787-9 + 20x 737 MAX (Firm) + 55x 737 MAX (Commitment)
Aviation Capital Group: 20x 737 MAX (Commitment)
VISTARA: 6x 787-9 (Firm ? ) + 4 options
Seacons Trading: 1x 737 MAX 7 BBJ (Firm)

And this one for conversion, so no new planes:
GECAS; 35x 737-800BCF converted freighters

gennadius wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group is a private company with a very good long term relationship with Boeing. So I doubt that politics plays a big role in their orders.

The 5 747s are still part of their older commitment (Volga-dnepr Group = AirBridgeCargo = CargoLogic) . The 777s are new and will most likely be slowly firmed up over the next couple of years, just like they did with their 747s.

With respect to the 747-8F, I believe Volga had their original launch order of 5. They then ordered a singleton, which later was revealed to be the first of the 20 strong commitment turned MoU in the 2014/2015 air shows. The additional 7 of those that have been firmed over the years have been listed as under Air Bridge Cargo. So, if the firming of these 5 flows into that same commitment, they will be at 13, with a potential of 7 remaining orders.

seabosdca wrote:

gennadius wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

Volga-dnepr Group is a private company with a very good long term relationship with Boeing. So I doubt that politics plays a big role in their orders.

The 5 747s are still part of their older commitment (Volga-dnepr Group = AirBridgeCargo = CargoLogic) . The 777s are new and will most likely be slowly firmed up over the next couple of years, just like they did with their 747s.

With respect to the 747-8F, I believe Volga had their original launch order of 5. They then ordered a singleton, which later was revealed to be the first of the 20 strong commitment turned MoU in the 2014/2015 air shows. The additional 7 of those that have been firmed over the years have been listed as under Air Bridge Cargo. So, if the firming of these 5 flows into that same commitment, they will be at 13, with a potential of 7 remaining orders.

Don't some/all of the 4 frames that have been delivered but are still listed as UFOs also belong to Volga-Dnepr/ABC? I have to confess that I'm baffled by trying to figure out what exactly became of those 20 commitments.

Momo1435 wrote:

seabosdca wrote:

gennadius wrote:

With respect to the 747-8F, I believe Volga had their original launch order of 5. They then ordered a singleton, which later was revealed to be the first of the 20 strong commitment turned MoU in the 2014/2015 air shows. The additional 7 of those that have been firmed over the years have been listed as under Air Bridge Cargo. So, if the firming of these 5 flows into that same commitment, they will be at 13, with a potential of 7 remaining orders.

Don't some/all of the 4 frames that have been delivered but are still listed as UFOs also belong to Volga-Dnepr/ABC? I have to confess that I'm baffled by trying to figure out what exactly became of those 20 commitments.

The 4 unidentified deliveries of the 747-8F are 2 for Saudia and 2 for Qatar.

The original deal from the Paris Air Show in 2015 was for 20 747-8F that would be delivered over a period of 7 years. So these 5 announced today are still part of that 2015 deal that will bring the total firmed up to 12, so there are still 8 left that could still be firmed up before 2021/2022. One of the question now is if this new 777 commitment will replace the remainder of the 747 deal?