Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
jplatts wrote:While WN already serves most of its domestic destinations nonstop from BWI, WN does have opportunities to add nonstop service to BUR, OMA, ONT, RNO, SNA, SFO, TUS, and TUL from BWI. WN also has opportunities to bring back BWI-GSP and BWI-LIT nonstop service.
Will WN add any new domestic nonstop routes out of BWI? Will WN bring back BWI-GSP and/or BWI-LIT nonstop service?
Blimpie wrote:Ugh, really!? More construction and more Southwest. I*'d love to see some other stuff than the 85% WN flights in and out of there.
727LOVER wrote:I remember when they first arrived back in 1993. Routes to CLE and I forget the 2nd destination----$19.
USAir was sitting pretty back then with the entire D concourse and around 120 flights in 4 banks.
LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options. When they do this expansion, I certainly hope if comes with new bathrooms because the ones there now are a bit undersized for the number of gates in use now. I could see the security checkpoint needing to be upgraded as well once it turns into a true 5 gate addition. I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
masseybrown wrote:I'm interested to see if the construction includes Federal Inspection Service accommodations.
BWIAirport wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options. When they do this expansion, I certainly hope if comes with new bathrooms because the ones there now are a bit undersized for the number of gates in use now. I could see the security checkpoint needing to be upgraded as well once it turns into a true 5 gate addition. I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
The article mentioned more bathrooms would be added.
I'd imagine they'd just expand Concourse A further west, adding more gates like the ones you mentioned. While I don't believe they can handle -800 or Max 8 aircraft, the 73Gs aren't going anywhere for quite a while, and the Max 7s will be able to fit there, too. There will also be new gates on the other side of the building that will be able to handle those longer aircraft.
masseybrown wrote:I'm interested to see if the construction includes Federal Inspection Service accommodations.
Blimpie wrote:More construction and more Southwest. I*'d love to see some other stuff than the 85% WN flights in and out of there.
LotsaRunway wrote:I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
727LOVER wrote:I remember when they first arrived back in 1993. Routes to CLE and I forget the 2nd destination----$19.
USAir was sitting pretty back then with the entire D concourse and around 120 flights in 4 banks.
LotsaRunway wrote:BWIAirport wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options. When they do this expansion, I certainly hope if comes with new bathrooms because the ones there now are a bit undersized for the number of gates in use now. I could see the security checkpoint needing to be upgraded as well once it turns into a true 5 gate addition. I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
The article mentioned more bathrooms would be added.
I'd imagine they'd just expand Concourse A further west, adding more gates like the ones you mentioned. While I don't believe they can handle -800 or Max 8 aircraft, the 73Gs aren't going anywhere for quite a while, and the Max 7s will be able to fit there, too. There will also be new gates on the other side of the building that will be able to handle those longer aircraft.
Thanks! I missed the mention of adding bathrooms.
Regarding Max7's ability to fit the A even # gates, I believe the Max7's will be larger that the 700s, so I don't think their fit is a slam dunk unless they are designed into the plans. From what I recall, they will be two seating rows longer than the 700s. Could they fit them in there? I'm sure they could and I bet they could squeeze a -800 in there as well if they had to, but the area is tight and squeezing wingspan passing a parked aircraft at a gate is challenging with the 700s. WN seems to be doubling down on aircraft smaller than the 800s/Max8s with this gate expansion because nothing else can use half of them.
The article mentions service expansion (which is probably years away). I didn't realize they were gate limited on service with their gates now. It seems half the gates are empty most of the time now and WN seems to dig deeply at BWI during the new winter month schedules. I wonder what they are thinking?
ScottB wrote:WN has been the catalyst for the near-complete revitalization of BWI. When they moved in back in 1993, BWI was a neglected hub for USAir, due to its proximity to PHL, DCA, and PIT. Putting a hub at BWI was a brilliant idea for Piedmont, but US didn't need it and really couldn't figure out what to do with it. They fought for it with Metrojet (although arguably that was more about just trying to fend off WN's growth on the East Coast after the PSA purchase debacle on the West Coast) and failed miserably.
I'd imagine the long-term plan would be to reconfigure the access roadway somewhat by moving it northwest.
BWIAirport wrote:Where did you see that BWI is gate limited?
BC77008 wrote:I liked it better when BWI called their concourses "piers," it paid homage to their beautiful harbor.
BWIAirport wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:BWIAirport wrote:The article mentioned more bathrooms would be added.
I'd imagine they'd just expand Concourse A further west, adding more gates like the ones you mentioned. While I don't believe they can handle -800 or Max 8 aircraft, the 73Gs aren't going anywhere for quite a while, and the Max 7s will be able to fit there, too. There will also be new gates on the other side of the building that will be able to handle those longer aircraft.
Thanks! I missed the mention of adding bathrooms.
Regarding Max7's ability to fit the A even # gates, I believe the Max7's will be larger that the 700s, so I don't think their fit is a slam dunk unless they are designed into the plans. From what I recall, they will be two seating rows longer than the 700s. Could they fit them in there? I'm sure they could and I bet they could squeeze a -800 in there as well if they had to, but the area is tight and squeezing wingspan passing a parked aircraft at a gate is challenging with the 700s. WN seems to be doubling down on aircraft smaller than the 800s/Max8s with this gate expansion because nothing else can use half of them.
The article mentions service expansion (which is probably years away). I didn't realize they were gate limited on service with their gates now. It seems half the gates are empty most of the time now and WN seems to dig deeply at BWI during the new winter month schedules. I wonder what they are thinking?
The Max 7 is about 6 feet longer than the 73G which shouldn't make a huge difference for those gates.
Where did you see that BWI is gate limited?
izbtmnhd wrote:BWI has done an incredible job of being the domestic alternative to DCA. Truly amazing when you consider how underused IAD is.
LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options.
planecane wrote:Can they encourage the TSA to keep pre check open in the evenings? Last 2 times I flew out of there (on Southwest so not talking red-eye) it was closed.
william wrote:https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baltimore%2FWashington+International+Thurgood+Marshall+Airport/@39.18046,-76.670621,935m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b7e2fcbbc2e00b:0x150cfa971740!8m2!3d39.1774042!4d-76.6683922
Are the old USAirways gates being used on concourse D?
Are those Dulles like boarding buses I see at the end of concourse D?
LotsaRunway wrote:BWIAirport wrote:Where did you see that BWI is gate limited?
I didn't, which is why I said that I didn't know that it was gate limited and that gates seem to be open quite often. But the article seems to imply that by adding the gates then WN could expand, which says to me that they feel they are (or will soon be) gate limited and couldn't expand without the gate expansion. I think they could expand quite a bit with existing gates, but maybe they have tremendous growth planned a few years down the road or maybe they just want to bring the use of the C gates under the wing of A and B gates. A massive international growth push probably would make sense with this gate expansion so we are simply talking domestic and maybe Canadian.
BWIAirport wrote:With NK pulling out of BWI-OAK in October, that opens the door for BWI-SFO, and I'm positive (based off 6 daily BWI-LAX flights on 4 airlines) there would be sufficient support for BWI-BUR/ONT.
DCA-ROCguy wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:BWI has done an incredible job of being the domestic alternative to DCA. Truly amazing when you consider how underused IAD is.
Re international, good for BWI, finally seeing international volume more like what Maryland has wanted for so long. Due to WN absorbing AirTran and bringing their marketing power to international flights, the Gov. William Donald "I am not weird" Schaefer International terminal bustles. Originally, though, the hopes were for transoceanic flights. I remember renderings when that terminal was built, showing hoped-for transoceanic jumbos.
Jim
izbtmnhd wrote:
Ha, you are right. The idea behind Pier E was to be an TATL alternative to Dulles. I doubt that will ever happen now. Even low-cost TATL carriers like FI prefer operating at IAD over BWI. It's down to BA/WW. They did try though. Ghana Air and Air Greenland were my favorites in those pre-WN international days. The terminal did get a bit busy when World Air had military charters.
Now the International terminal's bustle is directly tied to WN and the Caribbean. Who would have thought it 20 years ago?
flyPIT wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
Ha, you are right. The idea behind Pier E was to be an TATL alternative to Dulles. I doubt that will ever happen now. Even low-cost TATL carriers like FI prefer operating at IAD over BWI. It's down to BA/WW. They did try though. Ghana Air and Air Greenland were my favorites in those pre-WN international days. The terminal did get a bit busy when World Air had military charters.
Now the International terminal's bustle is directly tied to WN and the Caribbean. Who would have thought it 20 years ago?
Actually FI is back at BWI. Condor is there as well, and WW appears to be 11x weekly. Scheduled trans-Atlantic from BWI has never been busier.
BWIAirport wrote:
Those are Dulles-like buses, but I have never seen them used.
flyPIT wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
Ha, you are right. The idea behind Pier E was to be an TATL alternative to Dulles. I doubt that will ever happen now. Even low-cost TATL carriers like FI prefer operating at IAD over BWI. It's down to BA/WW. They did try though. Ghana Air and Air Greenland were my favorites in those pre-WN international days. The terminal did get a bit busy when World Air had military charters.
Now the International terminal's bustle is directly tied to WN and the Caribbean. Who would have thought it 20 years ago?
Actually FI is back at BWI. Condor is there as well, and WW appears to be 11x weekly. Scheduled trans-Atlantic from BWI has never been busier.
izbtmnhd wrote:flyPIT wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:
Ha, you are right. The idea behind Pier E was to be an TATL alternative to Dulles. I doubt that will ever happen now. Even low-cost TATL carriers like FI prefer operating at IAD over BWI. It's down to BA/WW. They did try though. Ghana Air and Air Greenland were my favorites in those pre-WN international days. The terminal did get a bit busy when World Air had military charters.
Now the International terminal's bustle is directly tied to WN and the Caribbean. Who would have thought it 20 years ago?
Actually FI is back at BWI. Condor is there as well, and WW appears to be 11x weekly. Scheduled trans-Atlantic from BWI has never been busier.
I didn't know FI was back and I forgot about Condor. FI ops at IAD is still quite a bit larger. WW is 11x weekly in the summer only. I believe it goes back to 1x daily in the winter.
Even still the only TATL widebodies are the summer-only 3/4x weekly Condor and the subsidized daily BA.
The original idea in the 1990s was to draw a heavyweight TATL carrier or two from IAD or at least be part of a regional TATL expansion which didn't involve Iceland. Proposals showed all sorts of widebodies departing from E which never materialized. Looks like most of the expansion happened at IAD.
BWIAirport wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options. When they do this expansion, I certainly hope if comes with new bathrooms because the ones there now are a bit undersized for the number of gates in use now. I could see the security checkpoint needing to be upgraded as well once it turns into a true 5 gate addition. I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
The article mentioned more bathrooms would be added.
I'd imagine they'd just expand Concourse A further west, adding more gates like the ones you mentioned. While I don't believe they can handle -800 or Max 8 aircraft, the 73Gs aren't going anywhere for quite a while, and the Max 7s will be able to fit there, too. There will also be new gates on the other side of the building that will be able to handle those longer aircraft.
BWIAirport wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:flyPIT wrote:Actually FI is back at BWI. Condor is there as well, and WW appears to be 11x weekly. Scheduled trans-Atlantic from BWI has never been busier.
I didn't know FI was back and I forgot about Condor. FI ops at IAD is still quite a bit larger. WW is 11x weekly in the summer only. I believe it goes back to 1x daily in the winter.
Even still the only TATL widebodies are the summer-only 3/4x weekly Condor and the subsidized daily BA.
The original idea in the 1990s was to draw a heavyweight TATL carrier or two from IAD or at least be part of a regional TATL expansion which didn't involve Iceland. Proposals showed all sorts of widebodies departing from E which never materialized. Looks like most of the expansion happened at IAD.
That being said, DE, WW, FI, and BA have all seen consistently improved service over the past few years. Wow was supposed to be seasonal, went year round, and now has 11x weekly in the summer. Condor started at 3x weekly and I believe it is now 5x weekly. British Airways, since replacing the 763 with the 788, sees good loads and even sends a 789 once or twice a week. Icelandair has expanded the BWI service into January, with a 737-8 Max operating in the winter. Even Air Canada has added Montreal since last year.
I think it is conservative to say that, within two years, there will be a Latin carrier (Volaris, Caribbean, Interjet, etc), another European carrier (Air France, Norwegian, Aer Lingus, etc), and will be close to landing an Asian carrier (Hainan, JAL, Asiana, etc). I also wouldn't be surprised to see DL start BWI-CDG/AMS.
zuckie13 wrote:BWIAirport wrote:LotsaRunway wrote:BWI is one of my favorite airports to use because it has an open feel to it and has many great consumer options. When they do this expansion, I certainly hope if comes with new bathrooms because the ones there now are a bit undersized for the number of gates in use now. I could see the security checkpoint needing to be upgraded as well once it turns into a true 5 gate addition. I also wonder what aircraft access to 3 current gates (A6-A8-A10) on the wall side is going to be like. They are tight now and doubling the length of the distance between the concourse and the driveway wall is going to create some interesting aircraft movement issues. I believe they can only get the -700s in there now. If they eventually retire the 700s in favor of 800s, Max7 and Max8, they may not fit in there anymore. I would hope this has been considered in the design.
The article mentioned more bathrooms would be added.
I'd imagine they'd just expand Concourse A further west, adding more gates like the ones you mentioned. While I don't believe they can handle -800 or Max 8 aircraft, the 73Gs aren't going anywhere for quite a while, and the Max 7s will be able to fit there, too. There will also be new gates on the other side of the building that will be able to handle those longer aircraft.
Actually, the wall (even) side (at least A-6 for sure on Google Maps) is marked for both the -700 and -800 size aircraft. It's the other side that has the length issue and is only marked for -700 size aircraft. That's due to proximity of the taxiway on the odd side of the terminal.
BWIAirport wrote:izbtmnhd wrote:flyPIT wrote:Actually FI is back at BWI. Condor is there as well, and WW appears to be 11x weekly. Scheduled trans-Atlantic from BWI has never been busier.
I didn't know FI was back and I forgot about Condor. FI ops at IAD is still quite a bit larger. WW is 11x weekly in the summer only. I believe it goes back to 1x daily in the winter.
Even still the only TATL widebodies are the summer-only 3/4x weekly Condor and the subsidized daily BA.
The original idea in the 1990s was to draw a heavyweight TATL carrier or two from IAD or at least be part of a regional TATL expansion which didn't involve Iceland. Proposals showed all sorts of widebodies departing from E which never materialized. Looks like most of the expansion happened at IAD.
That being said, DE, WW, FI, and BA have all seen consistently improved service over the past few years. Wow was supposed to be seasonal, went year round, and now has 11x weekly in the summer. Condor started at 3x weekly and I believe it is now 5x weekly. British Airways, since replacing the 763 with the 788, sees good loads and even sends a 789 once or twice a week. Icelandair has expanded the BWI service into January, with a 737-8 Max operating in the winter. Even Air Canada has added Montreal since last year.
I think it is conservative to say that, within two years, there will be a Latin carrier (Volaris, Caribbean, Interjet, etc), another European carrier (Air France, Norwegian, Aer Lingus, etc), and will be close to landing an Asian carrier (Hainan, JAL, Asiana, etc). I also wouldn't be surprised to see DL start BWI-CDG/AMS.
izbtmnhd wrote:Ha, you are right. The idea behind Pier E was to be an TATL alternative to Dulles. I doubt that will ever happen now. Even low-cost TATL carriers like FI prefer operating at IAD over BWI. It's down to BA/WW. They did try though. Ghana Air and Air Greenland were my favorites in those pre-WN international days. The terminal did get a bit busy when World Air had military charters.
Now the International terminal's bustle is directly tied to WN and the Caribbean. Who would have thought it 20 years ago?
blockski wrote:BWI's growth with WN is impressive, but given WN's strategy of not codesharing, this kind of transatlantic network is always going to be a weak spot for them.
izbtmnhd wrote:From the Balitmore BizJournals Article:
The airport's CEO says the deal keeps the airline at BWI, where it's a key carrier that has struggled at times to book seats.
But the agreement is necessary to keep British Airways flying into BWI, said airport CEO Ricky Smith Sr. The Heathrow-to-BWI route is one of the airlines' poorest-performing U.S. routes, he said, arguing that it's also key to BWI's future.
Also the subsidy amount available was increased for 2016-2018.
BWIAirport wrote:Plus, with any kind of luck, WN's success here proves to other airlines how viable BWI is, and they start adding service.
SFOThinker wrote:I wonder if BWI's landing fees and operational costs are significantly lower tha DCA and IAD? I suspect this is a factor in WN's expansion and competitive advantage there.